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punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

pkd88 posted:

I do not mean what he appears to be on the show. I might have been wrong but I was under the impression that Bill was still calling himself a libertarian but had no choice but to fight against the republicans - therefor he is left of what the current government is - which is confusing...

I got the feeling that with this show, he was sort of calling libertarianism a position for the immature and perhaps selfish thinkers. Did anyone else get a different thought from what he was saying.

To me, it seemed like Bill just didn't/doesn't like defining himself. Even when it comes to religion he doesn't call himself an atheist but a "rationalist" or "I don't know!". It seems like when asked the question he didn't want to be labeled in one of the two camps so he used something he felt was inbetween just for the hell of it.

In other words, I imagine he more or less said, "I don't really think or care about my political ideology. I just said libertarian for the hell of it."

pkd88 posted:

Libertarianism is conservatism because it is the opposite of liberalism? or is liberalism now different from progressiveness...

In today's political climate its very difficult to define many things. But in general a libertarian is someone who wants social freedoms (would agree on liberals on gay rights) and economic freedoms (would agree with conservatives on the economic side of things). So fiscal conservative but socially liberal.

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Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


I did enjoy the bit where Bill responded to the douchebag with "First, he never said we were leaving Afghanistan, you made that up, second..."

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002
I am pretty sure Bill self identifies as an atheist and a rationalist. They are the same thing. Am I wrong?

IRQ
Sep 9, 2001

SUCK A DICK, DUMBSHITS!

LuisX posted:

Bill has been calling himself a liberal for quite a while now though.

I would not call Penn a conservative. I do not know of any other conservative that will be totally ok with LBGT marriages, legalized drugs and hookers.

The lolbertarian ones usually are if you push them on it. By and large they're the same as regular conservatives but are actually somewhat ideologically consistent with the "government outta mah life!" bullshit (if you push them on it) when it comes to drugs/gays/etc. It's basically a way for youngish white males to subscribe to "gently caress you got mine" while remaining somewhat socially acceptable by abandoning a few unpopular social positions the rank and file hold. Beyond that though it's just straight up crazy people like Ron Paul.

Rousimar Pauladeen
Feb 27, 2007

I hate the mods I hate the mods I hate the mods! I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS! Hey wait a minute why do the mods hate me I'm contributing to the conversation I HATE THE MODS I HATE THE MODS I HA

pkd88 posted:

I am pretty sure Bill self identifies as an atheist and a rationalist. They are the same thing. Am I wrong?

You can be one without being the other.

Cmon Yo!
Oct 26, 2010

by Ozmaugh

Moose Bigelow posted:

You can be one without being the other.

You cannot be completely rational and believe in mythology as fact.

You can however be a Atheist who is otherwise a dumbass with no perspective or humanity.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.
I really don't understand the Maher hate. I would understand if he was as smarmy and full of it as say Hitchens, but Hitches he is not.

unlimited shrimp
Aug 30, 2008

punk rebel ecks posted:

I really don't understand the Maher hate. I would understand if he was as smarmy and full of it as say Hitchens, but Hitches he is not.
Hitchens is an extremely well-educated and well-spoken academic, which is why I forgive his smarminess. Bill Maher is a comedian and a talk show host.

I mean, I really love Maher but even I think he goes too far sometimes.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

SpaceMost posted:

Hitchens is an extremely well-educated and well-spoken academic, which is why I forgive his smarminess. Bill Maher is a comedian and a talk show host.

I mean, I really love Maher but even I think he goes too far sometimes.

I agree but its too far and inbetween. People act like it occurs in every episode.

beep by grandpa
May 5, 2004

Hitchens agreed to get water-boarded to test his pro-torture views. That's pretty god drat respectable.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

AltronHGX posted:

Hitchens agreed to get water-boarded to test his pro-torture views. That's pretty god drat respectable.

And lasted only ten seconds or so...

I see it more as "don't talk crap and deny the victim's claims without knowing the actual damage."

beep by grandpa
May 5, 2004

punk rebel ecks posted:

And lasted only ten seconds or so...

I don't think it was even 10 seconds. I don't think anyone without extensive military training would last longer than he did, really. I remember reading a long post from some dude who waterboarded himself (lol) and the line that really stuck out to me was him explicitly saying he would have sacrificed his wife, his kids, everything he possibly could to get himself out of it.

I don't really have an opinion on it and don't mean in any way to derail this into a torture discussion, I just think that was a bold and respectable move for someone to make to help support their position.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

AltronHGX posted:

I don't think it was even 10 seconds. I don't think anyone without extensive military training would last longer than he did, really. I remember reading a long post from some dude who waterboarded himself (lol) and the line that really stuck out to me was him explicitly saying he would have sacrificed his wife, his kids, everything he possibly could to get himself out of it.

I don't really have an opinion on it and don't mean in any way to derail this into a torture discussion, I just think that was a bold and respectable move for someone to make to help support their position.

What I'm trying to say is that I lack respect for him because he still made all those claims like "its nothing like drowning" or "its not that uncomfortable", but once he got so much heat that he finally decided to try it out himself to test his theory. And then its "OMG I was wrong!".

I mean I accept that it was respectable that he decided to bite the bullet and test his theory, but I don't respect him for making all of those claim without taking the victims seriously.

beep by grandpa
May 5, 2004

This is where we disagree. I think that in any subject- torture, mp3 player, ice cream- he had an opinion on something, tried it, and as a result of what he experienced he changed his mind. That's the way things are supposed to work, isn't it?

I do get what you're saying though, you are taking issue with how much of a dick he was about his uninformed opinion pre-water boarding. I can get that, but IMO all that should be forgiven since he, unlike literally every other supporter of waterboard, allowed it to be done to himself and went "wow nevermind, I was proven wrong" :shobon:

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002

punk rebel ecks posted:

I really don't understand the Maher hate. I would understand if he was as smarmy and full of it as say Hitchens, but Hitches he is not.

Do you mean in this thread or in some other groups in the world?

ApexAftermath
May 24, 2006

So who's on tonight anyways?

EDIT: Yeeeeah wow...forgot it was Tuesday. It's technically my "Friday" today at work, and I saw Real Time playing on the tv here.....it's been a long day.

ApexAftermath fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Oct 18, 2011

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.

AltronHGX posted:

This is where we disagree. I think that in any subject- torture, mp3 player, ice cream- he had an opinion on something, tried it, and as a result of what he experienced he changed his mind. That's the way things are supposed to work, isn't it?

I do get what you're saying though, you are taking issue with how much of a dick he was about his uninformed opinion pre-water boarding. I can get that, but IMO all that should be forgiven since he, unlike literally every other supporter of waterboard, allowed it to be done to himself and went "wow nevermind, I was proven wrong" :shobon:

Honestly I still disagree but I don't really feel like it or see a point in arguing. I assume we both feel that it isn't that big of a deal.

pkd88 posted:

Do you mean in this thread or in some other groups in the world?

In general. In multiple message boards people usually go on about his smarminess.

I mean yes he has his moments, but I don't understand the hate. He isn't different than your typical political show host.

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002
Bill is very arrogant. He is what conservatives accuse (probably rightly) the left of being.


You can be arrogant when you are correct and the others are wrong.

unlimited shrimp
Aug 30, 2008

punk rebel ecks posted:

I mean yes he has his moments, but I don't understand the hate. He isn't different than your typical political show host.
I think if you're a leftist and you listen to someone like Limbaugh, you mostly get upset because he's spreading misinformation about you to his True Believers. But if you're on the right and you listen to Bill Maher, you get upset because he sounds like he's condescending to you.

As much of a blustering jackass as he is, Limbaugh's message is mostly "You're right and correct and your political stance is valid and here's why: [insane rightwing lies]," and it's delivered to people who already agree with him. He validates the right wing crazies. Maher, on the other hand, seems more preoccupied with telling his opponents how wrong they are; he's also talking to the Rights but he's telling them things they don't to hear.

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002
I agree.

Rush is just an act. He doesn't give two fucks who is in charge. He just makes up stories to fit the world or vision he has created.

He has created this false universe and the people who listen to them are convinced that this universe is real. They don't listen because they agree with Rush, they listen because they think Rush agrees with them and that means they are correct - they don't seem to be aware that Rush has created the entire thing.

Rush has mastered planting ideas in his audiences minds and tinkering with their hidden (sometimes not even hidden) thoughts and beliefs. Rush creates the talking points that they repeat. Just ask barak HUSSEIN obama what the true fear is and who is with them?

A great deal of people don't like Bill Maher because he takes on their artificial world and does it with a good deal of arrogance.

You can be arrogant and snide when you are correct. Bill's problem is that it is very hard to explain the liberal position. It is complicated and the right wing side is not. Bill just sits back and pokes them because it is so easy.

There is also a bit of liberal guilt. Liberals must be kind and respectful. Liberals can not play the game the way the Republicans do. That is against their nature and belief system.

Bill doesn't play that too well.

punk rebel ecks
Dec 11, 2010

A shitty post? This calls for a dance of deduction.
I'm editing my post so I can clarify more.

I think it doesn't bother me for two reasons:

#1 Maher is a political satirist. He isn't suppose to deliver the news, he's suppose to make jokes and entertain his audience. The show is meant to be a debate show/comedy crossover. So I don't hold him to the same standards as say Rachel Maddow.

#2 You can think of me as a typical liberal punk all you want, but I'm sorry, most of the stuff Maher strikes at from the right aren't really debatable IMO. Universal Health Care should be a right. Its cheaper for the people and the nation, the people would get better care, and its been implemented in every developed country. I just can't see why someone would knock on that and instead go further with our mess of our health care system. So yes, I don't care if Maher picks on these people. They deserve all the criticism they can get. Because IMO that is factually a stupid opinion. Same thing with people who don't want LGBT couples to get married or even have civil unions. I don't care what you believe is part of your religion, there is something called the separation of church and state. I can go on, but that's simply the end of it.

In short, I believe in objective "opinions", and I don't mind if Maher wipes Republicans face in their piss, because 90% of the time what he's arguing isn't really up for debate, as the other side is just ignorance. Now I do admit that there's that 10% which usually boils down to environmental issues, Islamaphobia, and foreign policy. But its easy for me to ignore.

Again you an call me a liberal punk or ignorant all you want, but I'm sorry, I find most of what he picks on deserving of getting picked.

pkd88 posted:

Bill is very arrogant. He is what conservatives accuse (probably rightly) the left of being.


What does that mean, "Left of being"?

punk rebel ecks fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Oct 20, 2011

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe
You can't be mean or snide enough to a conservative as far as I'm concerned. Their worldview is absurd, their governing ability laughable, and the things the actually try to do are almost without exception morally reprehensible. It's so bad these days that I no longer even consider them a legitimate worldview or political movement. Just a loose mix of religious cultists and con men trying to strip the copper out of the walls before the nation's demographics change and they are run out of town by an angry mob.

gently caress them. They should be openly mocked on every show they go on and it's a sad statement about us all that they're not.

Edit: I guess my point is that Maher is doing just fine and doesn't really need to change anything.

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002

punk rebel ecks posted:

What does that mean, "Left of being"?
The right accuse the left of being arrogant. They are probably correct.

unlimited shrimp
Aug 30, 2008

pkd88 posted:

The right accuse the left of being arrogant. They are probably correct.
The left accuse the right of being ignorant, &c.

Cmon Yo!
Oct 26, 2010

by Ozmaugh
It always bothers when someone with very logical conclusions like Non Belief or Evolution , or Climate Change have a "JUST BECAUSE" defenses for them, preparation for those common questions should be easy.

ApexAftermath
May 24, 2006

pkd88 posted:

The right accuse the left of being arrogant. They are probably correct.

You have to consider why they think this though. It's not because anyone is actually being arrogant. They see some liberal person talking with a solid argument backed up by FACTS and they write them off as a snotty arrogant liberal because they can't come up with anything to rebuff them with that holds any water. It's just a defense mechanism because they are whining morons who stick to their guns and never admit being wrong rather then actually doing something good for the country.

SpaceMost posted:

The left accuse the right of being ignorant, &c.

Which is most cases is true. They are either being purposefully disingenuous or they are actually ignorant morons. Not sure which is worse but both are very bad for the country.

Zogo
Jul 29, 2003

punk rebel ecks posted:

I just can't see why someone would knock on that and instead go further with our mess of our health care system.

Because they think they themselves are getting better care by they're leaving X million number of people out in the cold.

readingatwork posted:

Just a loose mix of religious cultists and con men trying to strip the copper out of the walls before the nation's demographics change and they are run out of town by an angry mob.

:lol:

pkd88 posted:

There is also a bit of liberal guilt. Liberals must be kind and respectful. Liberals can not play the game the way the Republicans do. That is against their nature and belief system.

Conservatives have guilt too. Just a different flavor.

bango skank
Jan 15, 2008

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

readingatwork posted:

You can't be mean or snide enough to a conservative as far as I'm concerned. Their worldview is absurd, their governing ability laughable, and the things the actually try to do are almost without exception morally reprehensible. It's so bad these days that I no longer even consider them a legitimate worldview or political movement. Just a loose mix of religious cultists and con men trying to strip the copper out of the walls before the nation's demographics change and they are run out of town by an angry mob.

gently caress them. They should be openly mocked on every show they go on and it's a sad statement about us all that they're not.

Edit: I guess my point is that Maher is doing just fine and doesn't really need to change anything.
I feel bad about it, but the moment I hear a a friend or family member espousing modern day conservative view points I literally get mad at them, sometimes to the point of almost getting into a fist fight and severing(once, at least.) I just don't see how in 2011 an intelligent person could support anyone/thing really that's been brought forth by the right.

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002

ApexAftermath posted:

You have to consider why they think this though. It's not because anyone is actually being arrogant.

snippy


Have you read the recent posts in this thread including my arrogance?

inignot
Sep 1, 2003

WWBCD?
Maher should stop having conservatives on the panel and just allocate one seat to a huge, terrible looking 1950s computer called "the conservotron 5000" that will intermittently spout conservative talking points in a robot voice.

ApexAftermath
May 24, 2006

pkd88 posted:

Have you read the recent posts in this thread including my arrogance?

Come again? Not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying you are a liberal and admitting arrogance?

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?


inignot posted:

Maher should stop having conservatives on the panel and just allocate one seat to a huge, terrible looking 1950s computer called "the conservotron 5000" that will intermittently spout conservative talking points in a robot voice.

This is a legitimately good idea and I would love it. That or some comedian on the panel with a stack of conservative talking point notecards. They can compare the experience to having an actual real life Republican with them.

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002

ApexAftermath posted:

Come again? Not sure what you are getting at. Are you saying you are a liberal and admitting arrogance?

Yes

escape artist
Sep 24, 2005

Slow train coming
It's hard not to be arrogant when your opposition is today's Republican party.

ApexAftermath
May 24, 2006

pkd88 posted:

Yes

Why is it arrogant to argue from a point of fact though? Ignorant people might read intelligence as arrogance but that doesn't mean we should embrace that label. Where did we go so wrong that it became snooty to know things?

Keyser_Soze
May 5, 2009

Pillbug

escape artist posted:

It's hard not to be arrogant when your opposition is today's Republican party.

This times 1,000,000.

How the gently caress does one even muster up the strength to argue and try to persuade today's "conservative" when most of them literally believe that Adam and Eve walked hand and hand with their pet triceratops to go hear jesus lead bible study and who render any and all demand side economic proposals as "class warfare" and "communism" and who literally think "I'm gonna get mine too fags if I support Donald Trump getting more tax breaks and being able to legally rip people off and then dump nuclear waste on a school playground." They are mentally ill.

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002

ApexAftermath posted:

Why is it arrogant to argue from a point of fact though? Ignorant people might read intelligence as arrogance but that doesn't mean we should embrace that label. Where did we go so wrong that it became snooty to know things?

I figure it is a nuanced way of communicating. I don't think it is wrong and I am arrogant about stuff that I know (I think I know), especially when the other option is so obviously wrong. Bill Maher is pretty arrogant. (that is what this topic is about)

What has happened is that we are forced to argue a fact and then we get mad. There is only one fact and when people dispute it, we get mad or frustrated, we become arrogant, sarcastic, condescending etc. out of frustration.

I dunno, maybe someone else has a diff opinion.

(if you are a true liberal, you don't judge the dumb loving racist hicks that make up the republican party. You work hard to provide and pay for them to get a fair education)

:)

Dudebro
Jan 1, 2010
I :fap: TO UNDERAGE GYMNASTS
One of the main Republican candidates is a Mormon. That is mindblowing, yet not much is being made about that. He should have been laughed off the stage at the earliest possible moment. You literally believe the origin story of Mormonism. God forbid you have the power to launch nukes and influence world politics. God loving forbid.

Is it religion that's the problem? A lot of conservatives are true believers. You can't have a straight conversation with people like that. The table for rational discussion is over here, but you're still trying to figure out how to get in the room.

Wooty
Dec 21, 2002
You can not have a political conversation with people who have faith based beliefs.
The denial of science while still believing in the flu shot is just silly.

Many citizens are tricked into believing certain things and it is nearly impossible to get people to admit they are wrong and change their minds. The only thing that changes is that they forget the last outrage and Rush puts a new one out there.

Muslim > Born in Kenya > Why only show the short form? > That thing is a forgery.

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iCloud Strife
Jul 24, 2007

by angerbeet

Dudebro posted:

One of the main Republican candidates is a Mormon. That is mindblowing, yet not much is being made about that. He should have been laughed off the stage at the earliest possible moment. You literally believe the origin story of Mormonism. God forbid you have the power to launch nukes and influence world politics. God loving forbid.

Reagan believed in crystal balls and seances, nobody got nuked.

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