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thegoonofaudio posted:What's wrong with D&D? They're right on most things. The goons who'd disagree with them are the GBS randroid/libertarian types. This thread has been generally free of the pro-Gaddafi (or at the very least, anti-everything having to do with the rebellion) types, apart from two tagged and visible chaps. Now he's dead and suddenly there's a flood of new faces complaining about how inhumane his death is. I'm just surprised none of the new folks have cited Russia Today as a source yet. Maybe not from D&D, though the post someone quoted a few pages ago from the D&D thread was pretty stupid.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:37
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Good riddance. This should teach other dictators not to drop the US dollar stanard in favor of gold. Or to allow profit sharing from oil to his citizens. Resulting in such horrid things as free college education, free housing, clean running water, and modern healthcare.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:38
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This is a guy who ordered AA guns to be used on protesters.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:39
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Golbez posted:This thread has been generally free of the pro-Gaddafi (or at the very least, anti-everything having to do with the rebellion) types, apart from two tagged and visible chaps. Now he's dead and suddenly there's a flood of new faces complaining about how inhumane his death is. I'm just surprised none of the new folks have cited Russia Today as a source yet. Okay you have a pretty good point there. Once again I'm just pretty ignorant on this whole thing, having been caught up on it recently and not really focusing on it when it was happening this Spring 2011.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:40
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AtomikKrab posted:Looking at the videos it appears to me that Muammar had at least a chest wound, chest wounds tend to be pretty fatal. NTC also initially said he was shot in the legs as well during the firefight, I don't think they executed him, they wanted him alive so they could at least put on a show trial. The Associated Press reports: "Abdel-Jalil Abdel-Aziz, a doctor who was part of the medical team that accompanied the body in the ambulance to Misrata, said Gadhafi died from two bullet wounds, to the head and chest. 'You can't imagine my happiness today. I can't describe my happiness.'"
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Oct 20, 2011 19:41
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thegoonofaudio posted:What's wrong with D&D? They're right on most things. The goons who'd disagree with them are the GBS randroid/libertarian types. D&D likes to ignore how the world actually works in favor of idealism pretty often.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:41
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Joe Camel posted:Good riddance. case in point
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Oct 20, 2011 19:42
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Zeroisanumber posted:Sherman burned a huge swath through the south during the American Civil War and his Bummers stole everything that wasn't nailed down or on fire. The towns and cities (and states, in the case of South Carolina) on the receiving end were resentful after the war, but peaceable. I imagine that Tawargha will be the same assuming that the NTC doesn't punish them further. US civil war and Libyan civil war have been completely different so I wouldn't try to draw too strong comparisons. (And even the US civil war aftermath didn't go prettily, at least for Abe.) I mean, Germany and Japan became nice stable democracies after WW2 so logic dictates that Afghanistan and Iraq will also become nice stable democracies...
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Oct 20, 2011 19:42
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Golbez posted:case in point Hahaha what page in this thread was that on?
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Oct 20, 2011 19:43
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Scorchy posted:This is a guy who ordered AA guns to be used on protesters. I heard that guy in Norway killed a bunch of little kids. What is your point?
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Oct 20, 2011 19:44
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Golbez posted:This thread has been generally free of the pro-Gaddafi (or at the very least, anti-everything having to do with the rebellion) types, apart from two tagged and visible chaps. Now he's dead and suddenly there's a flood of new faces complaining about how inhumane his death is. I'm just surprised none of the new folks have cited Russia Today as a source yet. It's possible that more than two viewpoints exist in the entire world, though. Qaddafi was a brutal dictator who variously resisted and cooperated with imperialism, and who supported anti- and pro-imperialist rebels throughout Africa. His economic policies were invidious and favored some groups over others. But he nonetheless unequivocally did a lot for Libyan development overall. Now that he no longer has a monopoly on power, there are going to be people both within and without Libya who are going to try to advance their economic interests at the expense of the Libyan people, and it is a real concern for anyone who is concerned about the well-being of the Libyan people.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:47
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Golbez posted:This thread has been generally free of the pro-Gaddafi (or at the very least, anti-everything having to do with the rebellion) types, apart from two tagged and visible chaps. Now he's dead and suddenly there's a flood of new faces complaining about how inhumane his death is. I'm just surprised none of the new folks have cited Russia Today as a source yet. I think everybody deserves a trial, but if you really expected Gaddafi to not be killed after 42 years of his bullshit, then you have to be really naive or ignorant about how large anti-Gaddafi feelings are among the freedom fighters. The FFs have been pissed about Gaddafi for a very long time (especially the residents of Misrata), so seeing one or two take justice into his own hands when with Gaddafi isn't surprising in the least.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:47
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Joe Camel posted:Good riddance. Yeah! They should also continue decades of autocratic dictatorships, state sponsored terrorism, assassinations of political dissidents, civilian disappearings, military oppression, corruption, torture, massive economic disparities and an active WMD program, just for kicks.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:47
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thegoonofaudio posted:Hahaha what page in this thread was that on? Literally 5 posts up.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:47
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Made this after a post in the Facebook status thread
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Oct 20, 2011 19:49
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Scorchy posted:This is a guy who ordered AA guns to be used on protesters. He was also the pimpest leader in the world. You can't tell me you'd let a bunch of US backed troublemakers cramp your style too if you were in his shoes. No wonder Obama had him killed. Couldn't stand another African takin his street cred. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 20, 2011 19:50
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thunderspanks posted:Yeah! They should also continue decades of autocratic dictatorships, state sponsored terrorism, assassinations of political dissidents, civilian disappearings, military oppression, corruption, torture, massive economic disparities and an active WMD program, just for kicks. Are you talking about Libya or the US?
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Oct 20, 2011 19:50
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Just heard about this. Burn in hell you shitheel. I hope they capture Saif alive though (for real this time).
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Oct 20, 2011 19:51
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Nenonen posted:US civil war and Libyan civil war have been completely different so I wouldn't try to draw too strong comparisons. (And even the US civil war aftermath didn't go prettily, at least for Abe.) It's also a city of ~25,000. That's largish for Libya, but not anything that you could launch a concerted resistance out of.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:53
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Rrail posted:D&D likes to ignore how the world actually works in favor of idealism pretty often. I always hate this argument. I used to use it when I justified my military service and Conservative viewpoints of the time (Often dismissing liberals and democratic socialists as unrealistically idealist on everything from pacifism to anti-death penalty), but it's ultimately an untenable position. It's intellectually dishonest, lazy, and supports the status quo because 'CHANGE IS HARD  'The world doesn't work 'like that' because not enough people believe it should. Idealism and intellectualism will ultimately change this, when enough are convinced. Certainly arguments from idealism would benefit from a practical implementation strategy -but implementation is outside of the scope of most discussions of morality or abstract principles. That doesn't mean you just get to dismiss it as 'hmph, that's unrealistic'. PoizenJam fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Oct 20, 2011 |
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Oct 20, 2011 19:56
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grumperfish posted:Just heard about this. Burn in hell you shitheel. There's rumors that Saif was killed as well, but I'm waiting for a picture of the body (like Gaddafi and Moattasim).
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Oct 20, 2011 19:58
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Poizen Jam posted:I always hate this argument. I used to use it when I justified my military service and Conservative viewpoints of the time (Often dismissing liberals and democratic socialists as unrealistically idealist on everything from pacifism to anti-death penalty), but it's ultimately an untenable position. It's intellectually dishonest, lazy, and supports the continuing of the status quo because 'CHANGE IS HARD Rrail is literally a mercenary and you don't have to justify his opinion as the way the world really works to him is to get paid to spread misery internationally.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:59
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thegoonofaudio posted:You guys are probably right. I already admitted I was pretty ignorant of this whole matter. Just throwing out some counterpoints based on my limited understanding. Well, Gaddafi did put some of the oil wealth into social projects, like the Man Made River or public healthcare. These made Libya a slightly nicer country than Algeria and Tunisia. But I think that Libya will be facing bigger problems than just how much it will de-centralize its economy. Transition from autocracy through civil war to democracy is one difficult obstacle (eg. most European new democracies created in 1917-1918 had succumbed to dictatorship by 1939), but the oil curse, if you believe in such things, could have even stronger effect. Job creation will be one important issue, and I guess post-war rebuilding will help that for a while.
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Oct 20, 2011 19:59
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Something about seeing a pathetic, defeated, and terrified man shot/beaten to death makes me sick no matter who it is. I'm not condoning what he did. He was by many accounts a ruthless person.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:00
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Zorba the Greek posted:Everybody deserves mercy... In a philosophical sense I agree. In reality I find it hard to muster any sympathy at all for Qaddafi. He probably had an easier death than most of his victims.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:04
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HoveringCheesecake posted:I'm not condoning what he did. He was by many accounts a ruthless person. Still, I would have preferred to have read in the newspaper that he died in his sleep. In the prison cell where he had spent the last couple of decades.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:04
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Now that Total controls the Libyan oil fields how big of a kickback are we going to get from France?
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Oct 20, 2011 20:05
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Dusseldorf posted:Rrail is literally a mercenary and you don't have to justify his opinion as the way the world really works to him is to get paid to spread misery internationally. Wait, he works for the murderers formerly known as Blackwater? I just loving hate the 'Well I'm a realist  ' argument. No, you're just happy with the status quo. If enough people believed in a different set of ideals, then it would be realistic. You could dismiss our cultural, political, and legal framework as 'unrealistic and idealistic' if someone supported it in another country. Change does happen, it can work for the better, it often has throughout history, and it's not just idealism.PoizenJam fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Oct 20, 2011 |
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Oct 20, 2011 20:07
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wow seeing gaddafi like that is just weird, Hitler did it the right way. Just kill youself and at least let your notorious evil image live on... If I didn't know what a crazy psycho he was, I'd almost feel sympathetic to him.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:09
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thegoonofaudio posted:What's wrong with D&D? They're right on most things. The fact that a forum called Debate & Discussion has a 'position' on anything seems pretty sad. At first. But further consideration shows that they're always right so it's really OK.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:09
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Poizen Jam posted:I always hate this argument. I used to use it when I justified my military service and Conservative viewpoints of the time (Often dismissing liberals and democratic socialists as unrealistically idealist on everything from pacifism to anti-death penalty), but it's ultimately an untenable position. It's intellectually dishonest, lazy, and supports the status quo because 'CHANGE IS HARD It isn't idealism it's nihilism. It's not about morality or abstract principle it's about absolute statements of narrative fact detached from any such base thing as reality. That's not a "Oh they're not realists" swipe it's a swipe at wandering in not knowing anything about a specific context and claiming you know how it will turn out because of the ideological narrative you say everything fits in to. There is no implementation or change, it's just A=A therefore I'm right.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:10
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kindermord posted:The fact that a forum called Debate & Discussion has a 'position' on anything seems pretty sad. At first. But further consideration shows that they're always right so it's really OK. Ya know, I'd like to think the collective majority belief of experts in most fields have adopted 'correct' positions. Falacies aside, I just think it's good statistical betting to just go with the experts until evidence suggests otherwise. In that sense, I think the endpoint majority of most Debate & Discussion threads is a decent indicator of 'right'. Of course this acknowledges the biases of this community in general, although they tend to be weighted towards real research and statistics so that kinda serves me fine.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:13
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STRATFOR opposes things like the ICC and executing former dictators for very pragmatic reasons. They argue that fear of trial or death gives dictators an incentive to cling to power as long as possible and engage in murderous repression, knowing that they have nowhere to go if it all goes hairy. Fear of justice doesn't seem to prevent them from committing atrocities. Letting these murderers off the hook rubs me the wrong way, though.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:14
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Poizen Jam posted:
Isn't that the exact same argument most people here use to discredit libertarians?
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Oct 20, 2011 20:14
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Poizen Jam posted:Wait, he works for the murderers formerly known as Blackwater? I don't talk about what company I work for. The Xe title is someones conjecture. I am not happy with the status quo, though I am very much intertwined with the powers that be. I would like to see some change, but I don't view the world through ideologically-tinted glasses, I view it as it is. This world is never going to be at peace, not because "guys like me don't want it to be", but because that is essentially a biological certainty. There will always be violence, there will always be suffering. So long as we have individual nations with separate political and economic goals, they will work to get over on each other. Violence is an effective tool and to believe it will ever be abandoned so long as there are such things as "competing interests" and "resource scarcity" is absurd. Rrail fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Oct 20, 2011 |
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Oct 20, 2011 20:15
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Here's a graphic picture of his corpse with a clear bullet hole in his head. NMS, NWS ETC. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/20/article-2051361-0E7592D800000578-572_306x464.jpg
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Oct 20, 2011 20:18
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Nenonen posted:Still, I would have preferred to have read in the newspaper that he died in his sleep. I can't tell if you're calling me an idiot, or that you agree with me somewhat in that it'd be better for him to wallow in a dank cell for the remainder of his life.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:20
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farraday posted:It isn't idealism it's nihilism. It's not about morality or abstract principle it's about absolute statements of narrative fact detached from any such base thing as reality. That's not a "Oh they're not realists" swipe it's a swipe at wandering in not knowing anything about a specific context and claiming you know how it will turn out because of the ideological narrative you say everything fits in to. Does our way of thinking not define this context though? Would not the convincing of others to adopt similar ideas. Often idealistic arguments call for broad change with many complicated steps in between, but does that mean we should necessarily opt towards something non-idealistic or dismiss the idea entirely? Ideals set endpoints. The amount of work required to get there varies completely depending on the argument in question. This amount of work doesn't negate the validity of the ideal.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:21
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Poizen Jam posted:Does our way of thinking not define this context though? Would not the convincing of others to adopt similar ideas. Often idealistic arguments call for broad change with many complicated steps in between, but does that mean we should necessarily opt towards something non-idealistic or dismiss the idea entirely? Lets see how that looks. Mr. Self Destruct posted:Counterrevolution successful, three cheers for bloodthirsty imperialist conquest! May the rebuilding contracts be profitable and the crude sweet. Hopefully won't be long before we take down Syria and can prepare for Iran, God bless America. Yeah. Totally. This isn't the "consensus D&D position, but it is a large part of the consensus anti-intervention segment.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:27
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Rrail posted:I don't talk about what company I work for. The Xe title is someones conjecture. And yet violence and death caused by murders and war have historically declined. Why might that be? I believe its correlation with the increase in intellectualism, education, and change in political ideas and morality would certainly be non-spurious. Why then should we not move towards more broad change? It might never be zero. In fact, I'd side with you that human violence is on some level a biological certainty. But it is most certainly asymptotic, not some hard limit about the inevitability of human violence- we can get closer and closer to to peace, and we (as the human race) have made great strides in doing so.
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Oct 20, 2011 20:28
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