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Schmendrick posted:So if someone wanted to main Yun in 3S, how much hate would he get compared to wanting to main Yun in AE (until 2012 hits, so it'll be cool to use Yun again)?
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Oct 23, 2011 23:54
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Fenn the Fool! posted:Secondly, high level play requires you grind muscle memory. I think this is bad because I don't find it to be fun and I don't have a respect for it like I do for reaction time, strategy, or reading. Why wouldn't the game be better as a whole if this wasn't a prerequisite to serious competitive play? Can you name some real time games you think are interesting at a 'serious' competitive level? Grinding muscle memory is a fundamental part of the ones I can think of (FPS, RTS, Fighters) and I'm not sure how you can separate it from reaction time like that either. Being able to do poo poo more quickly and perfectly than the other guy is always going to be a big advantage in games of sufficient pace - if you don't have respect for this ability then stick to turn based games or something. I don't want to make an 'esports' argument but nobody would complain that soccer is alienating because being the best at it requires you to basically dedicate your life to physical and technical training outside of matches. Why should it be different for video games? Of course there are degrees here: Starcraft 2 is hugely less demanding than Starcraft 1 mechanically, and this has probably contributed to its popularity in the west, but top competitive play still requires muscle memory and motor skills that the majority of its fanbase will never reach and they know it. I think what you really want for accessibility is for new players to be able to reasonably quickly execute something that looks to them a little bit like what the best players do - even if its not truly the same and a lot less efficient because they're bad that's ok. Bubble-T fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 00:07
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Bubble-T posted:top competitive play still requires muscle memory and motor skills that the majority of its fanbase will never reach and they know it. This is not true for fighting games. 
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Oct 24, 2011 00:09
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Well it is for me I'm awful at these games I just like to watch them then play them frustratedly for a bit!
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Oct 24, 2011 00:14
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What I don't get is that if you just play casually you can log on to xbl and win at least half your matches as long as you play for a few weeks and just stick to the same character or team and try to get better. I'm awful, I can't FADC and I still beat people online with my Balrog. I feel like the people who complain about the execution barrier want to be able to buy the game, walk into a tournament and win just because they think they have superior strategy or something and only their fingers are holding them back?
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Oct 24, 2011 00:19
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Zand posted:They should quit playing the games before they ever get the thought in their head that they have a voice worth listening to. This sounds harsh but it is the reality of the situation. I sincerely hope that fighting games remain difficult to approach so that people who are unable to grasp the simple combo systems of most modern fighters never, ever get the idea that they have a clue what constitutes balance in a fighting game. I don't agree that the Player Entitlement issues have any bearing of game complexity. We're in an era of gaming where lots of people have ways to make their voice heard, games are meant to be beaten, you get validation of you sweet skillz from the game itself just for playing it through achievements, and designers are more open to feedback than ever as more and more games deliver patches and updates to fix imbalances. When a player encounters a problem, if its in his disposition to do so, he will whine about it and blame the game for why he can't do something. Being difficult to approach doesn't fix this in any way, there is no magical point where a player concedes that the game they spent $50 on is not for them. "I paid for it, I should be able to play it!" Regardless if you like it that way, fighting games have some of the most un-intuitive controls of any genre and have really only evolved in terms of input leniency. A lot of it probably deals with tradition (Changing Ryu's DP to something other than 623 would cause a riot) and stigma associated with other games (no serious fighter ever will use Smash-like specials). But with leniency, designers can kinda "cheat" this a bit. The SF4 dp is 323 or 636, even if it says its 623. Both are more 'natural' motions, and the game is programmed for them, but a lot of players will say they "don't use the shortcuts" (they've probably had their rear end saved in multiple games thanks to it though) and those that do try and take advantage are often seen as being scrubs for using things that are programmed into the game. Fundamentally, there's not much of a difference between plinking and the shortcut dp, but the general perceptions of both in the community are very different. Execution barriers are important for fighters to make them more fun in general. One reason I actually picked up Sakura, despite my poor execution, was her incredibly satisfying 1-frame BnB, and other players are drawn to characters with high execution as personal preference. Going for a harder, more damaging combo comes with more risks than a 2-in-1, and if you drop it the match can change drastically when you eat the punish. So you have the necessity of creating execution requirements to make the game exciting balanced against creating a comfortable and intuitive control scheme. I find it rather fascinating from a design standpoint. Ixiggle fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 00:25
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Finally found a video of a Customized Ogre in Tag 2. I'm amazed they pulled this off because that guy had to be painful to design for customizations. There's a lion head if you wanna make his 2p skin from Tekken 3/Tag 1. According people who played Tag 2, Ogre sucks at high level play though. 
Schmendrick fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 00:30
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323 SRK is amazing because it means you can do a SRK from crouch, it has nothing to do with it being easier to execute for me.Fenn the Fool! posted:Fixing the second problem is a bit simpler, at least in SF4, I really don't know enough about Marvel to comment there. Simply by making any links input one frame too early (on the last frame of an attack's recovery) cause the attack to start on the first available frame would increase the window of all links by 1, making a 2 frame link the smallest possible. Some games already do stuff like this Blazblue if you hold down a button the game pretends it is pressed for the next 5 frames, however there still are really hard combos because in Blazblue some combos are about juggling the opponent so you have to wait till they are at the right height so you have to delay awkwardly which can still be a problem. I don't really mind easy inputs, and execution my problem is sometimes easy execution leads to very simple play which can be straight up boring at times. It is sometimes nice though when you destroy someone using really hard combos and they are like drat! you can actually
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Oct 24, 2011 00:47
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I'm not sure I should post this but whatever! This was talked about earlier in the thread, but I don't think you can blame any one group for Capcom's recent fascination for FADC, easy reversals, X-Factor, Team Aerial Counter, Pandora, and the gems system. Whether it be for casuals or the developer's own piece of mind in trying to make a competitive game, I'm sure there are a lot of well thought out design reasons why they keep putting stuff like this in that they firmly believe may make a better game. Speaking as a guy who's mediocre at best though, all this poo poo is loving garbage; unnecessary bloat that makes the game less interesting, and I wish they would stop doing it. That doesn't mean I won't learn the systems and use them to win my matches. It just means that every time I/my opponent activates X-Factor, I go "why capcom, the game already makes individual characters way more likely to win solo than in Marvel 2 did you not think ahead as to how this thing would affect teams that start strong killers like wolv/dante/mags, why do this?" in my mind. Basically what I'm saying is is that I agree with zand. Also, people should probably buy KOFXIII and skullgirls if they feel like I do, because maybe those games won't have terrible system mechanics!
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Oct 24, 2011 00:50
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Van Ishikawa posted:I don't agree that the Player Entitlement issues have any bearing of game complexity. We're in an era of gaming where lots of people have ways to make their voice heard, games are meant to be beaten, you get validation of you sweet skillz from the game itself just for playing it through achievements, and designers are more open to feedback than ever as more and more games deliver patches and updates to fix imbalances. When a player encounters a problem, if its in his disposition to do so, he will whine about it and blame the game for why he can't do something. Being difficult to approach doesn't fix this in any way, there is no magical point where a player concedes that the game they spent $50 on is not for them. "I paid for it, I should be able to play it!" See, this is where I think a game like the new MK absolutely, unequivocally got things right. All the single-player content - the story mode, the challenge tower, the massive crypt full of unlockables - will keep a lot of players hooked for a substantial amount of time and make them feel as if they've achieved something when they're done, even if they never manage to win a fight against another human being, yet it's not totally divorced from the core game (or as expensive/time-intensive to produce) like those stupid Tekken beat-em-up modes or whatever.
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Oct 24, 2011 01:01
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Fenn the Fool! posted:If at the highest levels of play the ability to perform these difficult inputs becomes moot anyway, why not cut them out entirely? Doing this removes a significant barrier to entry into the competitive community and would put more emphasis on strategy and reflexes at lower levels of play. If you think everyone at high levels of play has perfect execution and therefore execution ceases to matter, you are wrong in every respect. Which then sort of undermines the rest of your points.
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Oct 24, 2011 01:05
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Bubble-T posted:Can you name some real time games you think are interesting at a 'serious' competitive level? Grinding muscle memory is a fundamental part of the ones I can think of (FPS, RTS, Fighters) and I'm not sure how you can separate it from reaction time like that either. Being able to do poo poo more quickly and perfectly than the other guy is always going to be a big advantage in games of sufficient pace - if you don't have respect for this ability then stick to turn based games or something. Competitive gaming as a spectator even is pretty new territory all around and who can say what will happen to it as time goes on. I think "If we can reward players less for mindless grinding of muscle memory, would that be better for competition and spectators?" is a pretty legitimate question. 40 OZ posted:One-frame link combos are a calculated risk, and that is part of strategy. Every top player still drops 1-frame links, except for a limited few combos that are either so absolutely necessary that they really grind them hardcore, or they are super easy to plink and the duration you have to pause is short. Allow me to talk about a similar situation in another genera, I don't imagine many of you are familiar with miniature wargames. Wargames are played with scale models on a tabletop, you use dice, measuring tape, and a rulebook to enact battles. There are tournaments, but they're pretty far from a seriously competitive environment. In any case, it had been a long standing tradition in wargames that you were not allowed to measure distances before you declared your actions; this meant that being able to eyeball distances was an important skill for playing because if you declared an action and then found yourself not quite close enough to perform it your troops could be left wide open to a counter attack. This creates some very interesting risk/reward choices, but we see the same problems we have in fighting games: new players can be frustrated because eyeballing distances doesn't seem to have much to do with the subject of the game and veteran players become consistent enough with it that having to do it at all is almost trivial save in fringe cases. Now! The most recent editions of Warhammer have solved this problem in a cool and elegant way, everything can be freely measured but most distances are determined by a die roll, so they still have a risk/reward dynamic to them BUT rather than hinging on a niche skill they're out in the open for everyone to see and make strategic decisions around. Obviously dice don't belong in fighting games like they do in wargames, but I'm sure similar solutions exist. I don't see any reason to believe that a fighting game that is fun to play, easy to learn, intricate without requiring grinding for muscle memory, strategic, and very watchable can't exist.
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Oct 24, 2011 01:25
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So you want Smash Bros?
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Oct 24, 2011 01:29
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It's interesting that you bring up soccer players, because any kind of professional athlete will spend hours, days and weeks perfecting their execution when it comes to passing a ball, taking a shot, making a tackle or anything else. Also worth noting is that 'grinding out muscle memory' does not directly translate into perfect combos an actual match. When you're under pressure and facing a thinking opponent who can defend and space himself, landing a 'difficult bnb' takes a lot of skill, timing and precision. People drop combos in high-level play all the time, as you can see by watching almost any match video from any tournament. Cat Machine fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 01:30
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Eyeballing distances is one of the last things I would put on a list of things that drives newcomers away from table top wargaming. I also think you don't quite understand that repetitious grinding is a huge part of what looks like "great reactions" to the casual observer. You might respect the obscure combo more but that also means the player spent time in training mode practising a very specific combo in a specific setup and I don't see how this is any more attractive an idea to new players than getting a BnB down. It's the same in any fast paced competitive activity - a great reaction time is very much based upon practising things until they are absolutely second nature, do-it-without-thinking actions. Do new players think practising the timing and spacing of a key anti-air normal is much more fun than getting a tight BnB down? I kind of doubt it, but it's just as important and there's very little you can do to reduce the execution requirements. Cat Machine posted:It's interesting that you bring up soccer players, because any kind of professional athlete will spend hours, days and weeks perfecting their execution when it comes to passing a ball, taking a shot, making a tackle or anything else. I brought it up to be fair. Bubble-T fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 01:37
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Fenn the Fool! posted:The most recent editions of Warhammer have solved this problem And warhammer is a terrible competitive game. I've never played it and i have alot of respect for the model painting and stuff but is anyone going to practice warhammer for 8 hours a day to become the best player in the world? A complete amateur can beat an "elite" player, no problem. That is cool for a game where half the fun is painting miniatures and stuff but fighting games are very basic. It's just a 1v1 fight so the games need depth and incredibly skill ceilings to exist. We aren't going to go to tournaments and theorycraft and watch footage over and over if its just people mashing buttons to a virtual rockpaperscissors simulator over and over. I feel like you just need to play more, and get out to a local gathering. edit- Let me describe some of the things that happen beyond the first layer that you are describing. Sperglord Story Time  There is a guy at my local fight club that plays Dudley. He whooped my rear end last week. Afterwards, me and him discussed what worked and what didn't work in the matchup. He showed me the option selects he was using on me. I go home, and spend an hour or two each day thinking, and discussing with other players about those OS's and other situations and what I can do to get the upper hand. If it is difficult, I might have to practice a bit to execute another tool I didn't have before. I want to be able to reliably apply this new tool when I get the chance to use it. Just knowing what to do, doesn't cut it. Then I go to the fight club, and my new stuff beats the poo poo he was using on me last week. Now, he is in the same boat I was, and has to step up the matchup another notch. If everything is just a decision and you don't have to practice anything ever then all of this is moot and we just climb up the decision tree until the game is lost as soon as the round starts. 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 01:43
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40 OZ posted:Then I go to the fight club, and my new stuff beats the poo poo he was using on me last week. Now, he is in the same boat I was, and has to step up the matchup another notch. If everything is just a decision and you don't have to practice anything ever then all of this is moot and we just climb up the decision tree until the game is lost as soon as the round starts. Me and a guy in our Arcana scene did the same thing for a while problem was the moment where he beat me with the new poo poo was always the day of the tourney  . Stop losing to me the week before then bodying in tournament you jerk!!!It is a lot of fun though and the best part is when someone from outside your scene shows up who plays the same character and you just destroy them because you know all this poo poo they don't.
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Oct 24, 2011 02:08
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Regarding execution in fighting games, I wonder why Tekken doesn't really get picked up by people who complain about execution requirements (disclaimer: I am probably the worst Tekken player alive.) For most of the characters, just to do something requires usually at most a direction and a button press, sometimes multiple buttons simultaneously. Certainly there are much more complicated characters, but take Anna as an example. The most complicated commands she has are for her command grabs, which as far as I understand are broken in more or less the same way as normal grabs, so the advantages to being able to do them are things like damage or positioning. Her basic juggles aren't particularly hard, either. Are there better ones that require better execution? Sure. But basic ones can get enough work done. Being restricted to basic execution just means that you have to be right more often. Likewise in most other fighting games I've played. It's not like in SC or SC2 where there is a high minimum requirement for execution to play at even a basic level. As for complaints about motions, well there's only so many buttons on a pad/stick. Eventually you have to add motions, and even then there's only so many motions you can make. VVVV I guess it depends on the level of play you're at. I was thinking more of the type of people who post about "finger puzzles!" and not budding tournament players. For the former group I think they can get by without having perfect movement. If they want to start playing competitively then yeah, they're going to have to get better. chumbler fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 02:20
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Character movement in tekken is extremely execution dependent and takes a lot of practice.
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Oct 24, 2011 02:29
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Wavedashing isn't that easy and just-frame stuff takes practice too. Now, I haven't played Tekken decently since Tekken 3, but it wasn't that easy execution-wise, it's just a different type of execution than SFIV or Marvel.
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Oct 24, 2011 02:37
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40 OZ posted:And warhammer is a terrible competitive game. An amateur who doesn't know how to make a beardy list will lose 90% of the time in Warhammer Fantasy because people in that game are aggressive and ruthless. In 40k, it's a little more possible, but it's silly to even mention Warhammer where luck does play a role (if you get a misfire in Fantasy, you almost lost the game with some armies). Note they still haven't updated every army in both games (and it looks like they don't want to when they push out other dumb things like $250 paint sets no one really needs). Schmendrick fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 02:44
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Tekken is crazy hard to pick up basic launcher BnBs are easy but remembering the 100+ move set for each character and how each move works, how to space, how to mixup, and how to recognize other characters moves is a long long long long run of practicing. Not to mention how few players can break throws at higher level throws arn't nearly as common because top level players can break them on reaction and you can train to break them, I'm still pretty scrubby but even I, before the throw animation even starts going, will recognize just though the small hand motion what the throw is. If I am in the zone I can break like 50-60% on 3 different throws and like 90% of the time in your just using 1 or 2 throws. It isn't too bad to practice, set a AI to mixup between a 1 throw a 2 throw and a 1+2 throw, and mash restart and try to break then restart, break, for like 5 minutes a day for a month and you should be most of the way there. But most players many even better then me don't put in this practice for something that gives them a pretty solid advantage. Alot of stuff in Tekken is like this where you just have to practice over and over again a bunch of reflexes and instinctual counters, If you play a top tekken player it is pretty funny if you try to throw out a 2 hit move that the only option for the second hit is low you will get parried every time, you just shouldn't do it. Or trying to throw them unless they are really mind gamed just isn't going to happen. ShinsoBEAM! fucked around with this message at 02:54 on Oct 24, 2011 |
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Oct 24, 2011 02:51
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:It isn't too bad to practice, set a AI to mixup between a 1 throw a 2 throw and a 1+2 throw, and mash restart and try to break then restart, break, for like 5 minutes a day for a month and you should be most of the way there. Or! chumbler posted:Regarding execution in fighting games, I wonder why Tekken doesn't really get picked up by people who complain about execution requirements (disclaimer: I am probably the worst Tekken player alive.) Yeah sorry dude, but Tekken is a really terrible example for games with low execution barriers. You don't have to be able to JFSR on reaction to win, but dash/sidestep canceling and juggling effectively are not optional expert-only techniques; they are absolutely necessary for even mid-level play. All games have a "low execution barrier" if you're just going to roll your face over the buttons anyway, and in that case the whole argument is moot.
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Oct 24, 2011 03:48
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VOOT has a relatively low execution barrier for a fighting game. Some of the basic poo poo like selective fire or dash canceling takes a bit of practice, and there are a couple of advanced, high-execution things like shinku CC hits and the ABO hold, but most of the difficulty comes from dodging your opponent's shots.
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Oct 24, 2011 03:56
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Nobody should have to practice any sort of physically demanding ANYTHINg people should just hook their brains up to computers and then the computer decides who is the logical winner. Please remove all execution barriers for fighting games and replace sticks and buttons with one big button that says "my superior strategy" on it and you press it and if your strategy is better than the other guys than Spiderman does his ultra and you win.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:01
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Fenn the Fool! posted:I respect a soccer player's general physical fitness and coordination, just like I respect a fighting game player's reactions and timing. I'm much more impressed when I see a player land an obscure combo that requires a particular circumstance than I am when a player lands a difficult bnb; the former shows the player is knowledgeable about his options and has excellent reactions, the latter only shows that he's spent quite a few hours in training mode practicing those links ad nauseum. All this means is that said player spent even more time in training mode practicing that obscure situational combo ad nauseum in addition to the BNB combo.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:08
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Soccer players just do Yoga and hit the books and film. They don't even use a ball in practice.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:23
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Kageneko posted:Soccer players just do Yoga and hit the books and film. They don't even use a ball in practice. I don't want to have to spend time in the studio grinding my Yoga just so I can kick a soccer ball man.
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Oct 24, 2011 04:42
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FIFA is planning to reduce the pitch size by a factor of 10 and institute 15 minute halves because fitness and athleticism are barriers to the popularity of the sport. Goalkeepers have been replaced by a 4+ saving throw.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:01
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I don't care about learning how a game works when I want to play it I'm gonna just WIN because of my superior strategy~ *picks wolverine, actually wins*
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Oct 24, 2011 05:10
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Why don't people post in the FPS threads complaining about how hard it is to hit people with guns and requesting that every game has auto-aim so you can hit people easier? Or complaining that hitscan weapons only show that you have the ability to follow a person with your scope and don't demonstrate "real skill"? Why are fighting game threads plagued by people who desperately wish to have the ability to compete without putting in any sort of work or effort?
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Oct 24, 2011 05:10
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Zand posted:Why don't people post in the FPS threads complaining about how hard it is to hit people with guns and requesting that every game has auto-aim so you can hit people easier? Or complaining that hitscan weapons only show that you have the ability to follow a person with your scope and don't demonstrate "real skill"? Why are fighting game threads plagued by people who desperately wish to have the ability to compete without putting in any sort of work or effort? Starcraft also has the same sort of complaints with APM.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:13
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Zand posted:Why don't people post in the FPS threads complaining about how hard it is to hit people with guns and requesting that every game has auto-aim so you can hit people easier? Or complaining that hitscan weapons only show that you have the ability to follow a person with your scope and don't demonstrate "real skill"? Why are fighting game threads plagued by people who desperately wish to have the ability to compete without putting in any sort of work or effort? One of the primary reasons my friends like CoD is because they can shoot someone anywhere and they die, while in Halo they actually got to aim properly and it is too hard to do well.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:18
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ShinsoBEAM! posted:One of the primary reasons my friends like CoD is because they can shoot someone anywhere and they die, while in Halo they actually got to aim properly and it is too hard to do well. Well bloody roar is that kind of fighting game and theres a new one coming out. So maybe weinerbabies should go play Bloody Roar. Also how can people bitch about APMs? That is literally just how fast you're clicking poo poo so if clicking poo poo to make things happen is a problem maybe you shouldn't play RTS games? or maybe just step your fuckin game up
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Oct 24, 2011 05:46
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Zand posted:Well bloody roar is that kind of fighting game and theres a new one coming out. That was a hoax.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:48
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Zand posted:Well bloody roar is that kind of fighting game and theres a new one coming out. So maybe weinerbabies should go play Bloody Roar. People feel like they shouldn't have to have high APM to play they should be able to lean back in their chair sipping wine while their superior strategy destroys the other player.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:49
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Zand posted:Also how can people bitch about APMs? That is literally just how fast you're clicking poo poo so if clicking poo poo to make things happen is a problem maybe you shouldn't play RTS games? or maybe just step your fuckin game up Starcraft and RTS's in general require alot of practice to use your APMs to maximum efficiency, and a good bit of practice to crank up from 120APM to around 200APM and I'm talking like actually useful actions not useless ones done to grind up APM.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:50
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scrooger posted:People feel like they shouldn't have to have APM to play they should be able to lean back in their chair sipping wine while their superior strategy destroys the other player. I think the situation is a little different in that the execution requirements to play at the highest level of starcraft are much higher. Nearly anyone (with a reasonable amount of practice) could muster the execution to play Balrog or Bison at the highest level, but I don't think that is really true of starcraft. I'm not a SC player, maybe I'm wrong, but what I have seen is ridiculous.
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Oct 24, 2011 05:55
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If chess had pieces that weighed hundreds of pounds you'd have to work out in order to play; I don't think anyone here would say this sounds like a good idea. If chess can be an interesting and strategic competitive game with the limitations of a turn based system and without any barrier to entry, then surely a game played in real time can also stand purely on the merits of strategy and reaction time. Perhaps the games we play now would fall flat without difficult execution to pad them out, but I certainly don't consider this a strong point in their design.
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Oct 24, 2011 06:01
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Fenn the Fool! posted:If chess had pieces that weighed hundreds of pounds you'd have to work out in order to play; I don't think anyone here would say this sounds like a good idea. If chess can be an interesting and strategic competitive game with the limitations of a turn based system and without any barrier to entry, then surely a game played in real time can also stand purely on the merits of strategy and reaction time. Perhaps the games we play now would fall flat without difficult execution to pad them out, but I certainly don't consider this a strong point in their design. To say chess has no entry barrier is just being ignorant. A new chess player would be absolutely dominated by anyone who had half a clue.
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Oct 24, 2011 06:03
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