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loquacius posted:So it totally makes sense on many levels for PM to be the one to wear the White Queen's ring and fight Jack -- Propsitian vs Dersite; dog vs mailman; etc -- but then why was there all that foreshadowing earlier about WV doing it instead? Y'know, this dream sequence? Interestingly, note that the main theme of the dream sequence isn't about WV fighting Jack, it's about WV being Jack. Someone theorized that PM is going to beat Jack and the barely-alive Vagabond will be saved by putting on Jack's ring. HMMMM.
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Oct 27, 2011 19:03
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Gabriel Pope posted:Interestingly, note that the main theme of the dream sequence isn't about WV fighting Jack, it's about WV being Jack. Homestuck: Saving a guy who's bleeding to death by removing his arm and eye.
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Oct 27, 2011 19:23
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And putting a sword through his chest
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Oct 27, 2011 19:25
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Starmaker posted:And putting a sword through his chest The sword can plug his punch-wound! 
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Oct 27, 2011 19:32
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Ok, so I have a theory: Doc Scratch is Lord English. Whatever the real purpose of the Tumor and Green Sun are, they are intricately linked with bringing Lord English into the world (which we may have actually seen in the flash, though not explicitly.). Rather than Lord English actually entering the world in any fashion, it's more like Doc Scratch simply transforms into him in some manner. This is the "death" Scratch refers to you, and the answer to the mantra "he's already here". Also explains why Scratch is such a creepy fucker.
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Oct 27, 2011 19:48
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His cueball head opens up like a flower and the shards fall away, revealing Big Cal.
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Oct 27, 2011 19:50
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RentCavalier posted:Ok, so I have a theory: I've considered this as well, and I think it's a pretty good theory. Knowing Hussie though, we'll be totally surprised when Lord English winds up being something no one expected. Or something completely obvious that was hidden in plain sight the whole time (which Scratch could even count as).
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Oct 27, 2011 19:52
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I still say there's room for Lord English to be Wayward Vagabond. He's going to be brought back with PM's or Jack's ring or something and become the monster he's had nightmares of turning into. Or maybe a hero. Maybe he'll find a way to gain even more ridiculous power after that, too. I just can't see his role in the story as finished. It would feel so pointless. The dream sequences, the inner monologues, his tagalong session with John...that poo poo was done in a way that felt different from the other Exiles. It was building to something, and while aggressive hand-to-hand bowel-obstruction surgery might be a part of it, I don't think that's where it's going to end. The fact that PM brought his body with her into the Troll session shows us that we're not quite done here. The "GIRL. YOU THERE, GIRL." stuff from the banner is in his communication style, too.
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Oct 27, 2011 20:26
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Lord English is unspeakably evil and binds female victims into death pacts. He can only enter universes through their deliberate destruction, summoned by a ~ath program bound to reality's fate. You need way better reasoning than what you've suggested to make a good guy (or anyone in this comic for that matter) into Lord English.
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Oct 27, 2011 20:30
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As silly as I think the "Aradia is LE's puppet" speculation is, here's a point in its favor I just thought of. It would be an explanation as to why Scratch involved himself in the Vriska paralyzing Tavros and killing Aradia. I don't think we have an exact reason for that yet, but he was very insistent that Vriska should kill Aradia. That event led to Aradia going God Tier and arriving at the Green Sun shortly before Rose and Dave emerged from it. Even if Aradia isn't LE's puppet, it seems like Scratch is certainly responsible for arranging to have those 3 there at that time.
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Oct 27, 2011 20:53
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creationist believer posted:As silly as I think the "Aradia is LE's puppet" speculation is, here's a point in its favor I just thought of. It would be an explanation as to why Scratch involved himself in the Vriska paralyzing Tavros and killing Aradia. I don't think we have an exact reason for that yet, but he was very insistent that Vriska should kill Aradia. That event led to Aradia going God Tier and arriving at the Green Sun shortly before Rose and Dave emerged from it. Even if Aradia isn't LE's puppet, it seems like Scratch is certainly responsible for arranging to have those 3 there at that time. Aradia was also extremely willing to do whatever the ghost voices asked her to do when she was dead, which pretty directly lead to the Black Queen's exile. I'd say that alone would be reason enough for Scratch to want Vriska to kill Aradia. Anything that she did afterwards is honestly more a bonus than anything else.
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Oct 27, 2011 21:07
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It's possible that killing Aradia (and maiming Vriska, paralyzing Tavros, and blinding Terezi) also facilitated in some way the mind control/manipulation shenanigans that went on when those characters wrote parts of Scratch's code into their flarp books.
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Oct 27, 2011 21:15
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I'm somewhat confused about Lord English. Wasn't he explained, way back at his introduction, to be the destroyer of universes? Like a sort of anti-Sburb? Why then would a universe have to be destroyed to bring him into it? I was under the impression that Scratch's machinations and the whole Green Sun thing were simply to create him, not to bring him into a universe. If, in order to bring the destroyer-of-universes into a universe you had to destroy it first wouldn't that, well, wouldn't that negate the whole loving point? I figured this brought LE into everywhere, and everywhen. Just like for the Green Sun. He's outside of time and blah blah but he still needed to have a point of creation. Like the Green Sun. So in the reset universe he'll already be there, he won't need to be "brought in." Because if he did (in a similar fashion) then their universe would have to end too and then he wouldn't do anything. So why is he the villain again? What is it he's supposed to do? Destroy the universe? Already done. Kill the horrorterrors and the Outer Ring? Apparently that's being done too. Is he supposed to end everything? All existence? It just doesn't make any sense to me how he could be a bigger threat than Doc Scratch, who already orchestrated the destruction of two universes. To bring in LE. To destroy the universe. e: I mean, I'm sure he is the villain, and there will be some very villainous reasons for him to be the villain, but why do we, right now, think that he is? What has he done? What is he supposed to do? What could possibly be more at stake than two universes. All universes? Then why do people keep talking about his entrance conditions? If these are the conditions to bring him into being each and every loving time than he is absolutely no threat in himself and only a threat as a motivator for others. Or is it just that he threatens the life of the four kids and six trolls? Okay, they're the protagonists and all, but being threatening to a group of teenagers isn't especially ominous. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Oct 27, 2011 |
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Oct 27, 2011 21:18
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Speaking of Scratch, and this is from quite a while back in this thread (~10 pages), some people said that it turns out he did lie. However, I reread some parts yesterday that question that. From Rose's conversation with him on LOHAC:quote:TT: I thought you didn't lie. And this page is perhaps indicative of what Scratch considers a punchline: quote:Did you not believe it would be Jack? Who else would it be? Someone who would have suspected anyone else is a person I would also describe as a sucker. That he admits he merely chooses to not lie and that he isn't incapable of it leaves an air of ambiguity surrounding him, however. Honestly all trust in him should have been lost to us the moment he said he does play pranks, but sparingly. In retrospect it's like he's pretty clearly flat out telling the readers that some of the things he says will be revealed to be a "prank" eventually.
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Oct 27, 2011 21:25
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Lord English can travel through time, so from his personal perspective he enters the universe at its end, then goes back and forth throughout its history just generally being evil and stuff*. He also helps set up the events that lead his summoning and the destruction of the host universe, before buggering off to wreck some other fool's day. *Stuff like enslaving Feferi and Aradia's ancestors, setting up the Felt, behind the scenes poo poo like that Right now yeah, Lord English doesn't seem as villainous to us because he's been pretty low-key, with Doc Scratch and Jack taking up the primary villain slots. But it looks like Jack is sort of winding down with his confrontation with PM and Doc Scratch is dead(?). So basically Act will proooobably be setting up exactly how evil Lord English is and how dangerous or whatever before any sort of final confrontation.
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Oct 27, 2011 21:32
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Starmaker posted:I'm somewhat confused about Lord English. Wasn't he explained, way back at his introduction, to be the destroyer of universes? Like a sort of anti-Sburb? There are still some mysteries surrounding the whole process, but from what we've been told, it works like this: -Lord English enters a universe at the instant of its destruction -Being an immortal master of time, this means he is free to travel throughout the entire timeline of that universe--even though his "starting" point is the end of the universe, he is present for its entire history -Lord English recruits various minions (Doc Scratch), who in turn recruit other minions (the Handmaid, Snowman), who orchestrate the events leading up to the destruction of the universe, thus setting up his own summoning So far Doc Scratch has been the one we've seen doing stuff, but he is ostensibly just a puppet carrying out Lord English's will. Is actually literally a puppet, for that matter. It's possible that this is all an elaborate act of legerdemain and Doc Scratch truly is the villain, but if we take things at face value (a risky proposition!) Lord English is ultimately pulling the strings.
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Oct 27, 2011 21:32
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Indeed, that is what the gently caress it is that we motherfucking are. S u c k e r s .
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Oct 27, 2011 21:34
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Someone on the last page said they didn't know what the Ultimate Alchemy was. I thought it was the creation of the new universe. I swear I remember someone saying something along the lines of "What did you think all that grist was for?" but I can't find it.
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Oct 27, 2011 21:34
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curiousTerminal posted:Someone on the last page said they didn't know what the Ultimate Alchemy was. I thought it was the creation of the new universe. I swear I remember someone saying something along the lines of "What did you think all that grist was for?" but I can't find it. While it was mentioned that "all that grist" was for the Ultimate Alchemy, they never actually specified what the Ultimate Alchemy itself was. e: I tried to look it up but MSPA's search is useless in regards to typing quirks.
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Oct 27, 2011 21:46
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Gabriel Pope posted:There are still some mysteries surrounding the whole process, but from what we've been told, it works like this: Right, now I remember what I it was I thought about Lord English before I made that post. He pops in at the end, then travels backwards to ensure his own creation, which is also the destruction of the universe, which is his purpose. It's a neat idea. Except It doesn't make for a particularly engaging end fight. The very fact he is present means he succeeds, among other things. The most apparent problem with him as a villain is that he doesn't do anything. I mean, why doesn't he just blow the universe up himself if he's so powerful? A masterful manipulator is an awesome villain, but it doesn't make for much of an end battle, you know? Plus if that's his whole MO then, like I said, he can't lose. Unless he already (and always will have) lost. In which case he won't be there. Which is why I think he might have only one point of creation/entrance? On the other hand, maybe Doc Scratch actually is Lord English, since he's the only one acting like it. But... that doesn't really jive with what he's been doing/saying. Yeah I get that he's not exactly trustworthy, but it doesn't really make sense, especially since he was created before the universes ended. Unless he was just trying to create the Green Sun, which he would need in order to exist and operate. So yeah, Lord English is really more of a tool than a character, he seems to really only exist as a motivator, in that he never actually seems to do anything himself directly. The kids will need something more interesting to fight then a background force, don't you think? (Lord English is the Green Sun) VVVV I mean, obviously the story isn't just going to end with the heroes winning because they fight better, or anything, but it is likely they'll have to fight something, whether it be Lord English or a minion. I'm just saying that, right now, if you think about it, LE is much more of a force than a person, more of a Man verse Nature than Man verse Man. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, I just think so far the discussion has been framing LE the wrong way. He's more of a malevolent force than a villain, in the traditional sense. Starmaker fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Oct 27, 2011 |
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Oct 27, 2011 21:51
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I think the conclusion of the story will be more interesting than "end fight against Lord English." I think it's going to be more along the lines of unraveling the mystery surrounding Lord English and figuring out a way to put an end to his cycle of universe destruction. It may be that they can't stop him from destroying the reset universe but will stop him from entering any more. It's hard to predict anything at this point.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:00
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Regy Rusty posted:I think the conclusion of the story will be more interesting than "end fight against Lord English." I think it's going to be more along the lines of unraveling the mystery surrounding Lord English and figuring out a way to put an end to his cycle of universe destruction. It may be that they can't stop him from destroying the reset universe but will stop him from entering any more. It's hard to predict anything at this point. I'm thinking something like this too. Back in the Intermission, there was a part where it said Lord English could only be defeated by glitches in spacetime, and I just keep thinking back to that.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:03
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Boneless Jogger posted:I'm thinking something like this too. Back in the Intermission, there was a part where it said Lord English could only be defeated by glitches in spacetime, I just keep thinking back to that. Exactly. Like Starmaker points out, Lord English has, by definition, already won. So beating Lord English is likely going to involve breaking a few definitions. Early on Andrew swore up and down that Homestuck would not end in a repeat of the DMK fight from Problem Sleuth. I think the finale may be more of a riddle (perhaps the Ultimate Riddle?) than a high-power slugging match.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:10
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Gabriel Pope posted:Exactly. Like Starmaker points out, Lord English has, by definition, already won. So beating Lord English is likely going to involve breaking a few definitions. Well, this brings us back to Jade. She brought her universe frog with her when she entered the new universe. It's not a complete victory for Lord English yet. He has the two current universes, but there is that future universe to consider, and from the sounds of things she did it right, unlike the trolls. If they can defeat- hell, stave off- Lord English long enough to finish the game, he won't have won. Or in other words, he's won the battle, but not the war.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:14
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For anybody who is interested in the Olive Garden story, the journey begins here.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:14
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King of Solomon posted:Well, this brings us back to Jade. She brought her universe frog with her when she entered the new universe. It's not a complete victory for Lord English yet. He has the two current universes, but there is that future universe to consider, and from the sounds of things she did it right, unlike the trolls. If they can defeat- hell, stave off- Lord English long enough to finish the game, he won't have won. There's no such thing as "stalling" Lord English. The instant they step foot into a new universe Lord English will have already won or lost. It's possible that they will thwart Lord English altogether and save the new universe from LE outright, but it would probably be more dramatically interesting if they go head to head with English and take him out in a universe where he'd already won. I think the foreshadowing tends to point in that direction too.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:24
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Regy Rusty posted:I think the conclusion of the story will be more interesting than "end fight against Lord English." I think it's going to be more along the lines of unraveling the mystery surrounding Lord English and figuring out a way to put an end to his cycle of universe destruction. It may be that they can't stop him from destroying the reset universe but will stop him from entering any more. It's hard to predict anything at this point. Alternatively, everyone will be forced to come to terms with his continued existence, given that "Let's thwart the bad guy!" is much the same brand of plot as "Let's save the Earth!", and the latter turned out to be exactly not what SBurb is all about; I see no reason the story as a whole should amount to the former. Well, other than the fact that I can't imagine what the overall message would be in that case (and I'd say as a modern creation myth/fable, Homestuck has to have at least one), but I'm bad enough at analysing complete literature, let alone half-finished stuff like this, so  e/ Not that I don't want to see a throwdown with the big man, it just seems like a perfectly natural plot progression, and therefore unlikely to happen. Renaissance Robot fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Oct 27, 2011 |
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Oct 27, 2011 22:24
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Gabriel Pope posted:There's no such thing as "stalling" Lord English. The instant they step foot into a new universe Lord English will have already won or lost. I must not have been clear. When I said "stave off" I meant they didn't need to defeat LE outright, merely finish the new universe and enter it (without him following.) I did not mean they needed to stall him from entering the universe, since you're right; if he ever enters the universe, he wins.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:27
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Personally, given how much of Homestuck is a homage to Earthbound, I'm expecting things to get incredibly horrifying and creepy towards the end.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:33
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It's been really clear for a while now that English is immune to all conventional forms of attack, and the only way to beat him, if any, is to slap together enough weird time/space poo poo to break whatever zany cosmic cycle keeps him perpetually in existence/"already here." I'm guessing that if the kids manage to create a stable offshoot universe that lacks any trace of English's influence and lock him in the currently extinct session then they'll have won, but there's probably going to be more to it than that. In fact, how long has it been since brute force was useful for anything besides wiping out cannon fodder? Ever since Jack Noir first prototyped himself, raw strength meant jack poo poo unless you were one of the guardians, and once Bec got prototyped he dominated the field so completely that everyone's been forced to use indirect methods of combat instead. John just now got something to swing his hammer at that didn't telestab him before he could twitch a muscle. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Oct 27, 2011 |
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Oct 27, 2011 22:44
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Gabriel Pope posted:Exactly. Like Starmaker points out, Lord English has, by definition, already won. So beating Lord English is likely going to involve breaking a few definitions. This. It's helpful if you consider how heavily Homestuck relies on gaming metaphors and symbolism. The Sims, Earthbound, chess, card games, billiards. A very open definition of a game is that it's a set of rewards and/or punishments that arise from the interactions of arbitrary (meaning beyond dispute) and inelastic rules. Except somehow LE's managed to make up his own game, and the only rule is "I win." He's a god-moder. What do we do with god-moders? We kick them out of the game, or stop playing altogether.
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Oct 27, 2011 22:53
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When does Jade bring the universe frog into the new universe? It falls into the volcano! (Actually it'll probably end up having gotten saved last second, but we didn't see that happen)
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Oct 27, 2011 22:56
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H.P. Shivcraft posted:Except somehow LE's managed to make up his own game, and the only rule is "I win." He's a god-moder. Why do you assume entropy isn't a natural part of the process? As has been said [By a biased source that manipulated the hell out of people] English may be far more evil than Jack, but he's a known quantity that reality knows how to deal with. Jack is broken, outside the bounds of what reality knows how to deal with. In the grander scheme of things, Jack is 'more destructive' than English. As the game is "reality", not playing doesn't seem to be a viable option. Even things like 'god-tier' are game constructs. Rose tried to play the "Lets pull the game apart and stop playing!" card, and that didn't end well for her now did it? Why do you assume the kids would 'win' against English in the end?
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Oct 27, 2011 22:59
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King of Solomon posted:He has the two current universes It seemed to me like the purpose of Earth was to spawn the session that creates the Green Sun. I remember Lord English being "already here" on Alternia, but did he ever make it to Earth? Here are some quotes from his conversation with Rose: quote:My master can't enter this universe until I am killed. quote:There is nothing noble about taking a course of action you believe would prevent his arrival, because that is impossible. quote:It is a known quantity. His very existence in a universe will mean it will inevitably be torn apart. It would be pretty funny if the source of all of paradox space's misfortune came out of a session from a universe where Lord English wasn't. Funny in the "haa haa hee hee hoo hoo" sense.
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Oct 27, 2011 23:01
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We should probably also remember that a lot of what we know about LE came from Doc Scratch, and I'd treat anything he says with extreme scrutiny and suspicion.
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Oct 27, 2011 23:04
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Boogaleeboo posted:Why do you assume entropy isn't a natural part of the process? As has been said [By a biased source that manipulated the hell out of people] English may be far more evil than Jack, but he's a known quantity that reality knows how to deal with. Jack is broken, outside the bounds of what reality knows how to deal with. In the grander scheme of things, Jack is 'more destructive' than English. Well I am pretty unhappy with how LE and his cohorts treat women, and if there's a way reality can propagate and decline without enslaving and degrading ladies from across time and space then I would be all for it! e: I admit it. I'm a hater. It's hard out there for a reality devouring pimp.
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Oct 27, 2011 23:05
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Some Strange Flea posted:He does? He has the troll universe for the reasons you quoted. I don't have anything specific really proving otherwise, but as the Kids' universe has been Scratched, it is not unreasonable to think that the post-Scratch Kids' universe was properly prepared for Lord English's entry (and it does have its own complete alternate history assuming the Scratch finished, which it should have), and well, Red Miles destroyed the Kids' universe, which is the key for his entry.
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Oct 27, 2011 23:07
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Boogaleeboo posted:Why do you assume entropy isn't a natural part of the process? As has been said [By a biased source that manipulated the hell out of people] English may be far more evil than Jack, but he's a known quantity that reality knows how to deal with. Jack is broken, outside the bounds of what reality knows how to deal with. In the grander scheme of things, Jack is 'more destructive' than English. Jack isn't an unknown quantity, he's just one more variable in the formula that inevitably brings English into the universe. Every other session created contains some kind of fatal flaw that will render it impossible to complete without a Scratch, which lets English/Doc Scratch mold the reset session into the kind of sociopathic society the trolls had, and whose players are manipulated into creating a new session with yet another fatal flaw. Every single negative thing that has happened throughout the comic can be traced back to Lord English and his ~ath summoning requirements, and Doc Scratch all but says outright that this has been a part of Skaia ever since the beginning. The only way for our intrepid heroes to get anything resembling a victory by the end of the comic is to somehow break English's summoning cycle, because as long as he's a part of creation, Skaia will just create universe after universe to be a twisted killing pen for his purposes.
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Oct 27, 2011 23:08
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Let's not be confused about why Lord English is evil. Above and beyond all the personally evil poo poo he pulls, he is responsible for whole universes being destroyed. Anyone looking for another purpose is missing the point. His grim procession is to destroy entire universes shortly after Sburb occurs, thereby entering them so that he can destroy them. He is the destroyer chasing after creation, annihilating whole universes in the process.
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Oct 27, 2011 23:15
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thanks alot assbag posted:When does Jade bring the universe frog into the new universe? It falls into the volcano! Well, she brings the volcano with her when she shrinks LOFAF, and the Genesis Tadpole may have survived.
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Oct 27, 2011 23:18
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