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Forgot that I was going to say something about this:Sir Bruce posted:Well obviously they're rare, but for supposedly extinct/mythical creatures there sure are a lot who keep popping up from under rocks! Literally, at least twice! They're not extinct, though, as you say - anyone who goes around saying they are has just never met one because the few that still exist keep to themselves. Going along with the 'power' theme is the idea of convergence, that power will draw out other power. Since this series has a lot of focus on the superpowerful beings of the Malazan world, it makes sense that would include the surviving Jaghut, even if the average Joe of the world isn't likely to ever encounter them.
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Oct 28, 2011 05:16
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I always assumed that the continued presence of Jaghut was part of the Imass cultural narrative. The end of Memories of Ice emphasized the hopeless ennui that all of the Imass experience after destroying themselves as an evolving culture to fight a seemingly endless war for 300k years. If you find a Jaghut every time you turn over a stone in the story it just drives the point home that the Imass completely failed at the task they destroyed their whole race to accomplish. The fact that most Jaghut turn out to be pretty decent folks also demonstrates the scale of the Imass' overreaction (or the depths of the Tyrants' cruelty, I suppose). That seems to be why the T'lan Imass we meet at the end of MOI effectively say something like, "We don't care if there are Jaghut left anymore; this whole thing was a big stupid mistake."
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Oct 28, 2011 06:06
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Donkey posted:That seems to be why the T'lan Imass we meet at the end of MOI effectively say something like, "We don't care if there are Jaghut left anymore; this whole thing was a big stupid mistake." This makes me think of (book 9+10) what happens to Onos after Hetan is killed. He is entirely consumed by anger (justified considering what happened) and single-mindedly devotes himself to vengeance so intently he fails to notice that he has dragged entire other clans into it. I think there's a clear reflection of the Imass as a whole sacrificing their race for a genocide of the Jaghut.
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Oct 28, 2011 07:00
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Goddamn, I missed some fun times in the Malazan thread over the last few days!
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Oct 29, 2011 08:03
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I'm currently reading Glenn Cook's first Dread Empire omnibus and there's a character in it named Mocker that has to be Erikson's main influence for Kruppe. It's also a really good book, if you're looking for some good fantasy to read you should check it out.
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Oct 29, 2011 13:35
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There's this too:quote:“My friends,” says he, “what is this which we now behold as being spread before us? Refreshment. Do we need refreshment then, my friends? We do. And why do we need refreshment, my friends? Because we are but mortal, because we are but sinful, because we are but of the earth, because we are not of the air. Can we fly, my friends? We cannot. Why can we not fly, my friends?”
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Oct 29, 2011 16:00
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I'm almost finished the first book, quick question regarding Oponn: I'm a bit puzzled at why they 'control' people and items. Like they have control or whatever over Parans sword - what's the big deal? What does it matter to Paran if they have his sword? I realise he was able to injure Gear with it because of Oponn pushing good luck or whatever, and the same with Crokus. I just don't get why they're doing it, and why everyone is so afraid of them. Have I missed something or will it be revealed later? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I think I'm just spoiled after coming from ASoIaF where I'm fed paragraphs of infodumps.
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Nov 1, 2011 18:10
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dmccaff posted:I'm almost finished the first book, quick question regarding Oponn: I'm a bit puzzled at why they 'control' people and items. Like they have control or whatever over Parans sword - what's the big deal? What does it matter to Paran if they have his sword? I realise he was able to injure Gear with it because of Oponn pushing good luck or whatever, and the same with Crokus. I just don't get why they're doing it, and why everyone is so afraid of them. Have I missed something or will it be revealed later? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I think I'm just spoiled after coming from ASoIaF where I'm fed paragraphs of infodumps. They doing it because they are jerks. There's more to it, but that's the basic.
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Nov 1, 2011 19:32
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dmccaff posted:I'm almost finished the first book, quick question regarding Oponn: I'm a bit puzzled at why they 'control' people and items. Like they have control or whatever over Parans sword - what's the big deal? What does it matter to Paran if they have his sword? I realise he was able to injure Gear with it because of Oponn pushing good luck or whatever, and the same with Crokus. I just don't get why they're doing it, and why everyone is so afraid of them. Have I missed something or will it be revealed later? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I think I'm just spoiled after coming from ASoIaF where I'm fed paragraphs of infodumps. Different people care for different reasons. Paran cares because Oponn was using him, after he sees Rake confront Shadowthrone, Rake tells him 'You have been harshly used' and Paran realizes a lot of his decisions lately had been Oponn's and not his own and they had pretty bad outcomes so he is justifiably pissed. Rake cares because having gods mess with Darujistan makes it a lot less predictable and more dangerous for him. People in general care because the push or pull of luck can turn their lives inside out no matter how well they plan or how hard they try. Even getting good things from Oponn is dangerous because as the god(s) of chance they are fickle and will inevitably abandon people at the worst moment, not to mention the whole power drawing power thing when gods get involved.
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Nov 1, 2011 21:37
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LtSmash posted:Different people care for different reasons. Paran cares because Oponn was using him, after he sees Rake confront Shadowthrone, Rake tells him 'You have been harshly used' and Paran realizes a lot of his decisions lately had been Oponn's and not his own and they had pretty bad outcomes so he is justifiably pissed. Rake cares because having gods mess with Darujistan makes it a lot less predictable and more dangerous for him. People in general care because the push or pull of luck can turn their lives inside out no matter how well they plan or how hard they try. Even getting good things from Oponn is dangerous because as the god(s) of chance they are fickle and will inevitably abandon people at the worst moment, not to mention the whole power drawing power thing when gods get involved. I just finished GotM, the last few chapters were great. Not quite sure what was with the whole Azath business but I guess I'm not supposed to know fully yet. I was a little disappointed with how the Jaghut Tyrant was brought down, since everyone seemed to be talking about him as some unstoppable force, then he was sorta outsmarted by Kruppe pulling him into his dream and quickly disposed of after that. Looking forward to starting book two!
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Nov 6, 2011 03:02
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dmccaff posted:Interesting, thanks. Yeah, Azath's get expounded on quite a bit as the series goes on. Kruppe's quite the badass, don't let the love of pastries fool you.
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Nov 6, 2011 03:05
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dmccaff posted:I just finished GotM, the last few chapters were great. Not quite sure what was with the whole Azath business but I guess I'm not supposed to know fully yet. I was a little disappointed with how the Jaghut Tyrant was brought down, since everyone seemed to be talking about him as some unstoppable force, then he was sorta outsmarted by Kruppe pulling him into his dream and quickly disposed of after that. Well consider what it actually took to take him down and its a pretty good bit of punishment. Also remember in Kruppe's dream Reast says Kruppe can't hope to hurt him as Kruppe is only a mortal and K'rul responds with something like 'The world has changed, mortals are your greatest threat.' That's an idea that reoccurs through the series.
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Nov 6, 2011 05:30
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I am interested in the writing quality of the first book as compared to the other books. I tried these books a few years ago and I could not understand his writing at all in the first book so I gave up. Maybe I'll just start reading book two and see how it goes. Thanks for the idea, OP!
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Nov 6, 2011 11:33
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The quality picks up considerably in the second book, but you should at the very least read a summary of the major events of GotM if you plan on skipping it.
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Nov 6, 2011 23:20
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I'm always surprised at how poorly received GoTM is, I really liked the whole Siege of Pale etc.
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Nov 6, 2011 23:22
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About a third of the way through House of Chains now. Memories of Ice was a wild ride with tons of awesome moments, but I'm not sure any of them can top even the brief exploits of Karsa so far. I loved finding out that I'd already met Karsa before in Deadhouse Gates and I can't wait to see where this one goes.
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Nov 6, 2011 23:33
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AvidAvatar posted:I am interested in the writing quality of the first book as compared to the other books. I tried these books a few years ago and I could not understand his writing at all in the first book so I gave up. Maybe I'll just start reading book two and see how it goes. Thanks for the idea, OP! I'd suggest finding a copy of "This Rivers Awakens", either used or new when it comes out again in January. It precedes GotM by one year but it shows what kind of writing talent Erikson is even before stepping in the fantasy genre. It clears the field of all the typical criticism against him, lack of characterization, "not caring" and so on, without offering the typical excuses due to the setting like Dragonball power levels and so on. As with Scott Bakker, these non-fantasy books are much shorter and more incisive. And I'm quite sure that one would be better prepared to read Erikson after clearing away all prejudices. That book would do just that and show more clearly the writer's style and intent. Really an amazing book.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:14
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I'm sure its been mentioned already somewhere in here, but what is Erickson's aversion to my new found addiction, audio books?
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Nov 7, 2011 01:22
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Even HE doesn't know how to pronounce some of the names he's come up with.
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Nov 7, 2011 01:26
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Abalieno posted:As with Scott Bakker, these non-fantasy books are much shorter and more incisive. And I'm quite sure that one would be better prepared to read Erikson after clearing away all prejudices. That book would do just that and show more clearly the writer's style and intent. I couldn't stand Bakker's non-fantasy book(s), to the point where if I'd read them first I would probably never have read any Bakker fantasy at all. Hope the same isn't true of Erikson! (Steve Erikson also hated Neuropath)
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Nov 7, 2011 01:49
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Haven't read Neuropath, so I can't say. It's "Disciple of the Dog" that I think is awesome.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:00
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Abalieno posted:Haven't read Neuropath, so I can't say. It's "Disciple of the Dog" that I think is awesome. I haven't read it, maybe I should try it. I am 100% on board with Bakker's arguments regarding human consciousness, I just really really hated Neuropath. Maybe Disciple will be a better read.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:05
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Kekekela posted:I'm always surprised at how poorly received GoTM is, I really liked the whole Siege of Pale etc. I'm rereading Gardens right now and think it's a great book. I don't understand why it's always being poo poo on.
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Nov 7, 2011 03:45
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Grammaton posted:I'm rereading Gardens right now and think it's a great book. I don't understand why it's always being poo poo on. Agreed. I finished it recently and thought it was fine. Some of the dialogue was a bit melodramatic (looking at you, Adjunct Lorn) but that hardly warrants the "Oh it totally sucks but you gotta slog through it" reputation. Of course I like Esslemont's books, so what the hell do I know I guess
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Nov 7, 2011 05:12
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Leospeare posted:Agreed. I finished it recently and thought it was fine. Some of the dialogue was a bit melodramatic (looking at you, Adjunct Lorn) but that hardly warrants the "Oh it totally sucks but you gotta slog through it" reputation.
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Nov 7, 2011 06:10
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The Ninth Layer posted:I'm not sure any of them can top even the brief exploits of Karsa so far. I wasn't super taken with Karsa at first. Certainly he was incredibly badass and exciting but I was expecting more Midnight Tides or Deadhouse Gates stuff. By the time he developed a bit I was all over that bandwagon. Fortunately for you there is lots of Karsa in the series. quote:Agreed. I finished it recently and thought it was fine. Some of the dialogue was a bit melodramatic (looking at you, Adjunct Lorn) but that hardly warrants the "Oh it totally sucks but you gotta slog through it" reputation. I rather liked it the first and second time I read it. The writing isn't as good as the later books but its serviceable and compares favorably to tons of the fantasy trash published. The dialogue is rather rough at times and some of the foreshadowing sticks out like a sore thumb. Every time they mention mining the streets they mention the gas lamps and Whiskeyjack gets the feeling he overlooked something. Some parts of it are polished so hard they shine. Circle Breaker's little bit where he walks to the dock and thinks of his life gives a ton of characterization and depth to him and the city with hardly a word describing either. I think a fair bit of the slog mentality is that the book doesn't lay much out for the reader so you are confused a lot of the time. And since the writing and dialogue can be rough a reader can't always get by on them. The plot is also rather confusing even if you know the world where DG you can follow the chain without getting lots of stuff and not feel lost.
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Nov 7, 2011 07:44
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LtSmash posted:I think a fair bit of the slog mentality is that the book doesn't lay much out for the reader so you are confused a lot of the time. And since the writing and dialogue can be rough a reader can't always get by on them. The plot is also rather confusing even if you know the world where DG you can follow the chain without getting lots of stuff and not feel lost. I think that guy a few pages back was pretty spot on with his criticisms and I surprised to see people get so bent out of shape over them. A big one I've always had with the series is that he expects you to have read the books several times out of order to get the full context of situations. It makes for great re-readings but can also be lovely for first time readers. I've always thought of Erikson's writing as a guilty pleasure because it's the kind of thing I would never recommend to anyone but still love myself, warts and all. Gardens was extremely confusing at times (the whole section with Paran in Dragnipur stands out to me) and for everyone saying it wasn't I bet if we went back far enough we'd find a forum post asking what the hell was going on half the time 
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Nov 7, 2011 15:11
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I thought the overall plot of Gardens was easy enough to follow in that I never had any confusion about what the characters' larger goals were, but from scene to scene I had trouble figuring out what was going on, and pretty much everything having to do with Paran was incomprehensible as he got pulled into warrens and alternate dimensions and talked t various ascendants too. Those parts were hard for me to picture what was going on, although I suspect they'd be a lot easier to follow now that I'm a few books in.
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Nov 7, 2011 20:05
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The Ninth Layer posted:I thought the overall plot of Gardens was easy enough to follow in that I never had any confusion about what the characters' larger goals were, but from scene to scene I had trouble figuring out what was going on, and pretty much everything having to do with Paran was incomprehensible as he got pulled into warrens and alternate dimensions and talked t various ascendants too. Those parts were hard for me to picture what was going on, although I suspect they'd be a lot easier to follow now that I'm a few books in.
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Nov 7, 2011 23:52
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LtSmash posted:
I'm about three quarters of the way through right now (thanks to this forum!) and this is pretty much how I feel. I only vaguely understood what was going on, and there was just a ton of stuff that he mentions and implies is really important, but that you don't really know anything about. Although as the story continues and more context is given it's really satisfying to start seeing how things fit together, and stuff that popped up in previous chapters starts to make a little more sense. All in all I've really enjoyed how he wrote it, but I can definitely see why it's described as a slog. The siege of Pale was especially good. e: looking at the argument a couple pages back, the only part I agree with is the confusing geography. I have no idea what's where or why/whether their positioning matters. misguided rage fucked around with this message at 01:04 on Nov 9, 2011 |
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Nov 9, 2011 00:53
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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The rough geography of individual continents is pretty easy to grasp provided you pay attention to his descriptions and manage to keep it in your head but the interactions of the different continents is much harder, I assume intentionally so. This is fixed by spergy fans though: http://malazan.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Maps
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Nov 9, 2011 11:56
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Electronico6 posted:As for the child Well Habbi already answer. But does the Child actually see Cotillion when he's shrouded or is Cotillion not shrouded at all. Panek and Apt certainly come and go, though.
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Nov 9, 2011 17:51
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The idea that Erikson had still to develop as a writer when he wrote GotM completely fell when I started reading "This River Awakens" (published one year before GotM). In fact this is my suggestion now: if you love Malazan then read this book because you're going to love it. If instead you're one of those who tried reading Malazan after it was recommended and yet didn't like it at all then stop right there and read this book instead. "This River Awakens" will tell you whether or not to spend another precious minute reading the Malazan series.
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Nov 9, 2011 23:00
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If someone is interested I wrote my review of This River Awakens now that I finished reading it. http://loopingworld.com/2011/11/17/this-river-awakens/ I can honestly say that while I'm one of the biggest fans of Malazan this other book surpassed all of it. Just so. It's bewildering. I really hope Malazan fans and haters will read it when the new version is published in January (hoping the revision won't ruin the version I read).
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Nov 17, 2011 03:42
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misguided rage posted:I'm about three quarters of the way through right now (thanks to this forum!) and this is pretty much how I feel. I only vaguely understood what was going on, and there was just a ton of stuff that he mentions and implies is really important, but that you don't really know anything about. Although as the story continues and more context is given it's really satisfying to start seeing how things fit together, and stuff that popped up in previous chapters starts to make a little more sense. All in all I've really enjoyed how he wrote it, but I can definitely see why it's described as a slog. I don't know if you're 3/4 through GotM or the entire series, but if it's GotM then reread it once you're done with 3 or 4 books. There are so many little details that are really cool that you don't see at first.
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Nov 17, 2011 05:34
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Almost finished with Deadhouse Gates, and goddamned I'm loving it. Coltaine is a total badass, I really hope he somehow makes it out of this all alive but it's probably too much to wish for. Also, the entire relationship between Icarium and Mappo has me really emotionally invested in them. I have yet to see how it finishes, but I suspect that Mappo can't live with Icarium. How can he live without his best friend?  Come to think of it, everyone is a loving badass. Fiddler rules, Baudin ruled, Heboric rules, Duiker rules, I feel like everyone's had kickass moments. I can't wait to see how it all wraps up.
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Nov 17, 2011 17:31
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Pretty interesting interview/podcast here for those interested: http://www.adventuresinscifipublishing.com/2011/11/aisfp-151-steven-erikson/
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Nov 17, 2011 21:44
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Cover art for volume 1 of the ICE's new book. Quorls, bombing my Dharujistan?
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Nov 18, 2011 22:07
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For a moment I thought I misclicked on a thread about China Mieville. Don't like much those Quorls, too much like giant libellulas. Abalieno fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Nov 18, 2011 |
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Nov 18, 2011 23:06
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Imagined quorls looking more like cicadas than dragonflys. Maybe because dragonfly just seemed obvious and a bit lame and overdone.
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Nov 19, 2011 06:07
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