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EoRaptor
Sep 13, 2003



Mausi posted:

If anyone has some choice info on the EMC or Dell side of things I'd be very glad to hear it :) From what I've read so far EMC are likely to try and pitch a vMAX and then fall back to a VNX with SSD cache, no idea what Dell will bring to the table but if it's an Equallogic I'm going to giggle.

Equallogic isn't so terrible, especially if you build the grid correctly. I'm not defending them, but for a VD environment, you could build a grid of SUMO's and a few 6100's filled with SSD's. Build your disks to span over all the group members, and equallogic will balance everything out. It'll cost more than other solutions, though, and unless you want a redundant 'hot' datacenter at some other location, bring no benefit.

There are better products these days, though.

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FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams
So maybe some ZFS masters can answer this for me.

I'm trying to replicate System A to System B.

I've got a pool, datapool, with filesystems in it. I want to replicate the same heirachy to System B, which also has a pool, datapool. If I try and do a zfs send piped into recieve through SSH, it sends the snapshot of the main file system, datapool, but then says this:
code:
cannot receive new filesystem stream: destination has snapshots (eg. [email]datapool@2011.11.16.AM[/email])
I could do a send for each file system, but I'd rather not have to modify my cron job each time a new file system is made.

If I had to, I could write a script that checks what filesystems exist under datapool on both sides, and creates any of System B if they don't exist there, but it doesn't seem like that should be necessary.

Am I missing something here?

Bluecobra
Sep 11, 2001

The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades

FISHMANPET posted:

So maybe some ZFS masters can answer this for me.

I'm trying to replicate System A to System B.

I've got a pool, datapool, with filesystems in it. I want to replicate the same heirachy to System B, which also has a pool, datapool. If I try and do a zfs send piped into recieve through SSH, it sends the snapshot of the main file system, datapool, but then says this:
code:
cannot receive new filesystem stream: destination has snapshots (eg. [email]datapool@2011.11.16.AM[/email])
I could do a send for each file system, but I'd rather not have to modify my cron job each time a new file system is made.

If I had to, I could write a script that checks what filesystems exist under datapool on both sides, and creates any of System B if they don't exist there, but it doesn't seem like that should be necessary.

Am I missing something here?

Instead of having a pool named datapool on both systems, call one datapool1 and the other datapool2.

http://download.oracle.com/docs/cd/E19082-01/817-2271/gbchx/index.html posted:

You can use the zfs send command to send a copy of a snapshot and receive the snapshot in another pool on the same system or in another pool on a different system that is used to store backup data.

Bluecobra fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Nov 17, 2011

FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams

Bluecobra posted:

Instead of having a pool named datapool on both systems, call one datapool1 and the other datapool2.

That doesn't fix it. I think the problem is that I'm doing
code:
zfs send datapool | zfs receive backup
and that doesn't work because it tries to put datapool into backup, I have to do
code:
zfs send datapool/depta | zfs receive backup
and do that for each filesystem.

Bluecobra
Sep 11, 2001

The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades

FISHMANPET posted:

That doesn't fix it. I think the problem is that I'm doing
code:
zfs send datapool | zfs receive backup
and that doesn't work because it tries to put datapool into backup, I have to do
code:
zfs send datapool/depta | zfs receive backup
and do that for each filesystem.
Have you tried using "zfs send -R datapool"? That should send all the filesystems inside the datapool pool. I would take a look at "Sending and Receiving Complex ZFS Snapshot Streams" in the ZFS admin guide.

FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams

Bluecobra posted:

Have you tried using "zfs send -R datapool"? That should send all the filesystems inside the datapool pool. I would take a look at "Sending and Receiving Complex ZFS Snapshot Streams" in the ZFS admin guide.

Yeah. When I start, the backup server has on snapshots or filesystems, just the main backup filesystem. If I do this:
code:
/sbin/zfs send  [email]datapool@2011.11.16.AM[/email] | ssh yin /sbin/zfs receive -Fbackup
It works just fine, and now there's a backup@2011.11.16.AM snapshot on the backup host.

Now from here I try this:
code:
/sbin/zfs send -R [email]datapool@2011.11.16.AM[/email] | ssh yin /sbin/zfs receive -F backup
cannot receive new filesystem stream: destination has snapshots (eg. [email]backup@2011.11.16.AM[/email])
must destroy them to overwrite it
Now if I remove the snapshot on the backup host and rerun the above command, I get the same output.

If I run these same commands on a descendant filesystem (datapool/depta > backup/depta) it works just fine, so I'm really confused. Am I just not allowed to send the root?

E:
I think this is the root of my problem, from the page you linked:

quote:

When sending a full stream, the destination file system must not exist.

By definition the root of the zpool has to exist. So if I just moved everything onto datapool/data and synced datapool/data with backup/data it would all work just fine.

E2:
Nope, that's not it, or if it is I'm still not understanding properly. I tried to send datapool/storage to backup/storage and I get the same error about the destination already having snapshots.

FISHMANPET fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Nov 17, 2011

Bluecobra
Sep 11, 2001

The Future's So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades
It sounds like you have to destroy the pool on the remote server before you run zfs send or just send incremental data instead. Another thing you can do is use rsync. You can use zfs send for your initial copy, and then use rsync to copy over what has changed. You can then setup ZFS snapshots on each system so they both have independent snapshots of the data.

FISHMANPET
Mar 3, 2007

Sweet 'N Sour
Can't
Melt
Steel Beams

Bluecobra posted:

It sounds like you have to destroy the pool on the remote server before you run zfs send or just send incremental data instead. Another thing you can do is use rsync. You can use zfs send for your initial copy, and then use rsync to copy over what has changed. You can then setup ZFS snapshots on each system so they both have independent snapshots of the data.

Yeah, rsync is so far outside of the realm of what I'm trying to do here...

Although I beat my head against it enough to figure out the problem. This is what I got to work:
code:
/sbin/zfs send -R datapool/storage@2011.11.16.AM | ssh yin /sbin/zfs receive -F -d datapool
I created a filesystem storage, and put all the file systems I wanted into storage. Then I put datapool/storage into datapool on the other hosts, and that recreates the directory tree properly.

Wompa164
Jul 19, 2001

Don't write ghouls.
Alright so per my last post, I managed to find an LTO4 tape drive (my company actually had one). Now my question is, what brand of tape do you guys prefer? I see there's a lot - IBM, Quantum, Sony, etc. and the choices are overwhelming.

EoRaptor
Sep 13, 2003



Wompa164 posted:

Alright so per my last post, I managed to find an LTO4 tape drive (my company actually had one). Now my question is, what brand of tape do you guys prefer? I see there's a lot - IBM, Quantum, Sony, etc. and the choices are overwhelming.

Actually, only a few companies actually make tapes (EMTEC, Imation, Fujifilm, Maxell, TDK and Sony), the rest are all re-branded from one of those.

If your drive vendor has a tape brand of choice, use them, it'll keep any bitching about warranty issues to a minimum. The tapes are nearly all the same anyway, as the LTO consortium mandates quality levels and checks up on them.

Wikipedia!

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert

Wompa164 posted:

Alright so per my last post, I managed to find an LTO4 tape drive (my company actually had one). Now my question is, what brand of tape do you guys prefer? I see there's a lot - IBM, Quantum, Sony, etc. and the choices are overwhelming.

I've always used Sony and never had a problem. Whatever my personal anecdote is worth.

bort
Mar 13, 2003

Vanilla posted:

The support you've experienced is truly awful and I'd make sure EMC knew it. Let the rep know, also on any CSAT reports that come through.
My EMC rep basically threw up his hands and apologized for how bad support is when I came to him with my horror stories. No promise to fix it, he said he can't control it. It was a little pathetic. We also got wooed by Compellent, and they're pretty rockin' arrays, despite whatever FUD EMC fed us about how it is well and truly gimped. We nerds liked 3Par better, but Compellent is priced great and does solve some pretty difficult issues with inbound writes and storage tiers.

My theory is that Dell is poaching EMC phone support people in Asia and getting intel on what customers are hopping mad.

\/ \/ I would but I'm done buying disk for a while. Thailand :sigh:

bort fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Nov 20, 2011

complex
Sep 16, 2003

Ask your HP rep about the T400 deal available through the end of the year. Some ridiculous pricing is available on a true Tier 1 array.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





bort posted:

My EMC rep basically threw up his hands and apologized for how bad support is when I came to him with my horror stories. No promise to fix it, he said he can't control it. It was a little pathetic. We also got wooed by Compellent, and they're pretty rockin' arrays, despite whatever FUD EMC fed us about how it is well and truly gimped. We nerds liked 3Par better, but Compellent is priced great and does solve some pretty difficult issues with inbound writes and storage tiers.

My theory is that Dell is poaching EMC phone support people in Asia and getting intel on what customers are hopping mad.

Yeah, EMC support has been absolutely atrocious. I have had the VNX in front of me for about 2 weeks now and I am one of those unlucky bastards in a "do everything" type of position, so I do not have as much time to research as I would like, and I find I still know about stuff that the support guys have no clue about. In the past 2 weeks I have spoken to about 4 reps on the phone and maybe 6 online and they have all been really bad, save maybe one or two.

bort
Mar 13, 2003

My recommendation: when I finally got an issue that was big enough to get a regional sales manager in on it and discovered that guy was with it, I just started going to him for everything. It's kind of a dick move but otherwise I was just punishing myself and my users with incompetent support engineers. I had them manually failover a live Celerra to a failed data mover in a webex session, to give you an idea of how mad I had to get. Couldn't get to the mute button fast enough.

The other terrible thing about EMC: usually with a technical :confused: situation, you can pull in some VARs and have the pre-sales engineers all tell you half-truths. You can then gather a scatterplot of what's actually real in the marketplace and for your size business. With EMC, all the VARs are ex-EMC guys who are all cross-pollinated and rooted back to the source, so everyone, everyone in the whole organization instantly knows that you raised your eyebrows at the VNX presentation and you're probably hot to buy. Then the hard rain of hard sell.

e: also boston accents :geno:

bort fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Nov 20, 2011

Vanilla
Feb 24, 2002

Hay guys what's going on in th

bort posted:

My EMC rep basically threw up his hands and apologized for how bad support is when I came to him with my horror stories. No promise to fix it, he said he can't control it. It was a little pathetic.

Yup, support is pretty much out of his control - like many things. However, he's your account manager and while he doesn't need to use his jesus hands to fix problems himself he still needs to make people step up their game when you are being let down.

-Get the regional Service Manager in to hear your issues and what happened.
-Talk about how they can make sure it doesn't happen again
-Get you put on some kind of regional hit list to escalate your issues faster
-Speak to those high up in the organisation to take the blame for issues so there is no doubt who was to blame

An account manager isn't just the guy who comes to you for a sale, he...you know....manages your EMC relationship. If it's not being resolved well enough i'd take it one step higher.

bort
Mar 13, 2003

Or you can buy third-party EMC support and stop buying EMC, like I did.

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





bort posted:

Or you can buy third-party EMC support and stop buying EMC, like I did.

I almost never experience this, but I am starting to feel some buyers remorse for this VNX 5300. I had this big long post typed up for this thread a few days ago but I decided not to post it because I got it figured out, but god drat their support is worthless, the UI is terrible, the documentation is really difficult to sift through, and some of the design decisions are painful. I just found out that you can't add or remove disks from a Storage Pool. Yes, you can add disks as long as you're doing them in a supported Raid Group config, so it is really just merging the multiple RAID groups together. Say I have 3 disks in a RAID5 Storage Pool and I want to add 2 more, to get up to their recommended "5 disks on a RAID 5" recommendation. Nope, can't do that. And not being able to remove a disk from a Storage Pool? These are things you can do on cheap rear end Dell RAID cards on a server. Bleh.

Vanilla
Feb 24, 2002

Hay guys what's going on in th

Internet Explorer posted:

I almost never experience this, but I am starting to feel some buyers remorse for this VNX 5300. I had this big long post typed up for this thread a few days ago but I decided not to post it because I got it figured out, but god drat their support is worthless, the UI is terrible, the documentation is really difficult to sift through, and some of the design decisions are painful. I just found out that you can't add or remove disks from a Storage Pool. Yes, you can add disks as long as you're doing them in a supported Raid Group config, so it is really just merging the multiple RAID groups together. Say I have 3 disks in a RAID5 Storage Pool and I want to add 2 more, to get up to their recommended "5 disks on a RAID 5" recommendation. Nope, can't do that. And not being able to remove a disk from a Storage Pool? These are things you can do on cheap rear end Dell RAID cards on a server. Bleh.

Aww no man stick with it :( You mentioned before it's always harder when you're the implementation guy and it's new technology to you. Everything has its own quirks.

So from what I can remember in an EMC storage pool everything is striped over everything. So you may have RAID 5 protection but you actually have 100 disks and all service IO - i.e a balanced pool of disk.

The thing is you can't add disk to this pool and have the whole pool rebalance or restripe. If you add more disk it will be part of the pool but treated as it's own little mini-pool. Hence why it needs to be a RAID 5 group but adding two disks wont be RAID 5 and it can't restripe it.

Not sure on the roadmap info but I would assume it is coming....

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





I'm sticking with it, of course. Don't have much of a choice. Like I said earlier I'm sure it's great once you get it in production and it's under load, but if this is what storage's Best and Brightest have to offer it's very disappointing. Yeah, I heard about the rebalancing problem once you add more disks to the pool, how you are supposed to double the amount of disks. Seems related, like you said, to the same issue I have. It's just like I said, any decent RAID card on a server will allow you to add drives to a RAID, and it is not unheard of to be able to remove a disk if you have the extra storage space. Today it's all about flexibility and "virtual storage", and I guess that is one area where EMC is behind. Big time.

The other issue I was having that I avoided posting about was creating a Storage Pool at the Block level and then allocating the space to a Storage Pool for File. When the VNX went through it's disk provisioning it assigned all the disks to RAID Groups, which meant I couldn't do anything with Storage Pools. But since tiering only applies to Storage Groups and not RAID Groups... None of the techs I spoke to (about 5 or so) could tell me how to achieve what I wanted, and 2 of them said it wasn't possible. When I figured out how to delete the RAID Groups, the problem was that the NAS portion of the VNX did not get updated, so it completely freaked out and I had to go into the command line to fix it. Keep in mind there was no error message at all when I went to delete those groups, it just let me do it and broke all NAS functionality.

Vanilla, you shouldn't feel obligated that you have to respond to all this. None of it is directed at you. You've been a huge help so far and I can't thank you enough. Just posting my troubles here in case someone can help explain some of these concepts or if someone else is looking at the VNX line, so they at least know what they're getting. I emailed my sales rep and sales engineer twice, saying we were frustrated with the support we were getting and if they could get us in touch with someone. First time neither of them replied, a week later we sent another email and he responded that he'd get right on it. That was 2 days ago and we have not heard back. Welp.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003

Vanilla, does EMC make a vSAN I can try their management tools on?

ihafarm
Aug 12, 2004

evil_bunnY posted:

Vanilla, does EMC make a vSAN I can try their management tools on?

They do have virtual appliances for the Celerra/VNX platforms, but I don't think they are publicly available.

ghostinmyshell
Sep 17, 2004



I am very particular about biscuits, I'll have you know.
I hate our Lefthands so much. I'm having a heart attack when I do updates because of poo poo like, "installing updates,updating linux, formatting..." in the vague descriptions these prompts give.

bort
Mar 13, 2003

evil_bunnY posted:

Vanilla, does EMC make a vSAN I can try their management tools on?
Make a java app with a spinning wait indicator and then sit in front of it. The rest is details.

Mierdaan
Sep 14, 2004

Pillbug

bort posted:

Make a java app with a spinning wait indicator and then sit in front of it. The rest is details.

Ouch.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003

bort posted:

Make a java app with a spinning wait indicator and then sit in front of it. The rest is details.
Oh man

Internet Explorer
Jun 1, 2005





Unisphere has actually been pretty responsive for me, as long as I do not go to the Background Tasks window. As soon as I navigate there and back out everything runs extremely slowly until I log out and back in.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003

Internet Explorer posted:

Unisphere has actually been pretty responsive for me, as long as I do not go to the Background Tasks window. As soon as I navigate there and back out everything runs extremely slowly until I log out and back in.
Enterprise class software right here

Vanilla
Feb 24, 2002

Hay guys what's going on in th

evil_bunnY posted:

Vanilla, does EMC make a vSAN I can try their management tools on?

I think at the moment youtube videos are the best bet to get a look.

ihafarm
Aug 12, 2004

Vanilla posted:

I think at the moment youtube videos are the best bet to get a look.

Keep up with Chad Sakac's blog at http://virtualgeek.typepad.com/
He's working to get all the vAppliances released. I had forgotten, but a member of his team worked on the Celerra and VNX VSA's, and they are available for download via his blog at: http://nickapedia.com/2011/04/08/new-uber-model-uber-vnx-nfs-v1/
EDIT: Also check out his new UBERalign tool for aligning your VMs, storage agnostic.

The Celerra VSA is fully featured, but the VNX VSA is limited to CIFS/NFS right now.

Bonus, Chad has a short survey up that enters you in a drawing for the following:
10 Iomega SSD
10 Iomega IX2 Cloud Edition
2 iPad gen 1
5 iPad gen 2
1 VNXe 3300

I won an Iomega NAS a couple years ago through a similar survey he had.

Not an EMC zealot, just admin one.

ihafarm fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Nov 23, 2011

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003

Vanilla posted:

I think at the moment youtube videos are the best bet to get a look.
For the love of poo poo.

bort
Mar 13, 2003

Vanilla posted:

Everything has its own quirks.
This is the truth. The quirks are also hidden and they bite.

I also think support in general has declined in value. There isn't the money in a hardware/software company to staff phones with anyone really excellent. They need to save the hotshots for the pre-sales and the pretty-good people for implementation and chasing the angry customers. If I could buy an option where I could search their internal knowledge bases and download everything, I'm pretty sure I'd never talk to anyone on the phone. They just do what I'd be doing, less efficiently.

e: anyone using Orion Storage ProfilerSolarwinds Storage Management? Any tips and tricks? The move from EMC has left an echoing "single pane of glass" echo in management's ear. I want to use SolarWinds to show pretty reports, not the admin GUI.

bort fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Nov 23, 2011

Slappy Pappy
Oct 15, 2003

Mighty, mighty eagle soaring free
Defender of our homes and liberty
Bravery, humility, and honesty...
Mighty, mighty eagle, rescue me!
Dinosaur Gum

bort posted:

This is the truth. I also think support in general has declined in value. There isn't the money in a hardware/software company to staff phones with anyone really excellent. They need to save the hotshots for the pre-sales and the pretty-good people for implementation and chasing the angry customers. If I could buy an option where I could search their internal knowledge bases and download everything, I'm pretty sure I'd never talk to anyone on the phone. They just do what I'd be doing, less efficiently.

The quality of support has declined but the cost hasn't. EMC still has their lovely "charge the customer more for maintenance than it would cost them to purchase a new array" strategy. Seriously that company employs so many great engineers but their customer relationship strategy is 100% douchebag.

DEC was the best about this - that's why everyone used to buy DEC servers. It was great when you would call them for support on a network card and they would route you to the guy who wrote the driver.

Vanilla
Feb 24, 2002

Hay guys what's going on in th

Spamtron7000 posted:

The quality of support has declined but the cost hasn't. EMC still has their lovely "charge the customer more for maintenance than it would cost them to purchase a new array" strategy. Seriously that company employs so many great engineers but their customer relationship strategy is 100% douchebag.

DEC was the best about this - that's why everyone used to buy DEC servers. It was great when you would call them for support on a network card and they would route you to the guy who wrote the driver.

I see a lot of this frustration around support cost at every vendor and quite often it's easily explainable by three facts. One obvious and two that kinda result in an 'ohhhhh' moment.

1.) They want you off the old kit and spending money on new kit (grande improtante, let's not kid around)

2.) A lot of difficulty comes from when people take the post coverage fees from the original array quote but don't bother adding in the fees from subsequent upgrades. THey then get a shock when they see the maintenance bill. "Well, you're not extending the maintenance on a 2 Engine VMAX with 200 disks! It's now 3 years later and an 8 Engine VMAX will 1400 old disks isn't it!!"

(Explaining the above - Get a normal quote for an array or upgrade from EMC. At the bottom of every EMC quote there is an additional field that says 'Post Coverage maintenance fees'. This is the maintenance cost for additional years and you'll find they're not any more expensive than anyone else.

3.) Maintenance cannot be discounted heavily by major vendors. If maintenance looks proportionally more expensive than the product at time of purchase or upgrade it's because you're getting a great product discount....but sales people can't discount the maintenance to anywhere near the same level so the maintenance looks expensive.

Maintenance is protected because more products mean more support and also a fund is created so that in the event a company goes bust they can still honour their support agreements (like gateway computers). Quite often the money from maintenance extensions and maintenance costs beyond year 1 or 2 is not counted towards a companies revenues.

In any event the maintenance costs are not made up on the spot and shouldn't ever be a surprise as they're clearly documented.

kyuss
Nov 6, 2004

Quick question: the company's ReadyNAS 4200 reports that SMART's "reallocated sector count" has risen from 0 to 33. This is for drive #7 in a RAID6 array of 12 disks.

Should I replace the drive immediately?

bort
Mar 13, 2003

I'm not saying I'm surprised at the costs of support. I'm saying I'm getting less for my money than I used to and I'm looking at support usage a lot more carefully than I used to. Where five years ago, I'd include it on almost everything I bought without even thinking about it, now I'm seeing if I can reduce costs, for example, by stocking some spare parts.

Not sure I agree with 3, though, Vanilla. They can discount anything and have the option to charge me less or nothing for maintenance. As for claiming the revenue, typically they can claim the revenue from a contract based on the percentage complete it is. If you sign a three year contract, you can certainly expect them to claim 33% of the revenue in year 3.

Eletriarnation
Apr 6, 2005

People don't appreciate the substance of things...
objects in space.


Oven Wrangler

kyuss posted:

Quick question: the company's ReadyNAS 4200 reports that SMART's "reallocated sector count" has risen from 0 to 33. This is for drive #7 in a RAID6 array of 12 disks.

Should I replace the drive immediately?

I would replace it, especially if this happened in a short time period.

luminalflux
May 27, 2005



My LeftHand had a bad drive that needed replacing. It's been warning about this for a while.

A month to be exact :stare:

Apparently HP Remote Support tool that's supposed to take SNMP traps and send emails to HP about this so they can send me a new drive was broken. After calling around to HPs support I found out that apparently LeftHand support isn't handled by the storage team, but is most likely a server issue. They think. :psyduck:

I'm still kinda impressed that it kept on trucking, but I guess that's what RAID5 + Network RAID 1 is for.

StabbinHobo
Oct 18, 2002

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
hey everybody

an old coworker buddy of mine is at a new startup where they intend to produce "a lot" of video. They brought in a storage consultant who quoted 300k and he's balking. I told him its probably at least close to reasonable, but I'd look around for a second-opinion consultant. Anybody know anyone good in the NYC area?

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evol262
Nov 30, 2010
#!/usr/bin/perl

StabbinHobo posted:

hey everybody

an old coworker buddy of mine is at a new startup where they intend to produce "a lot" of video. They brought in a storage consultant who quoted 300k and he's balking. I told him its probably at least close to reasonable, but I'd look around for a second-opinion consultant. Anybody know anyone good in the NYC area?

300k for what? Whether or not it's reasonable depends on what kind of speed your old coworker needs, dedup or not, interface, capacity, and fault tolerance.

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