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ADWD also hints that Dany has to go to Asshai first before going to Westeros. So in one sense yes, we are further away than we were at the beginning of the book.
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Nov 29, 2011 23:58
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Intel&Sebastian posted:You forget there's a magical dragon taming horn being delivered to her like so many dominoes pizza's I forgot about zombie Aemon.
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Nov 30, 2011 00:05
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MMD3 posted:pretty good summation of how I felt. The thing is that he can totally fit all of that into two books. The problem isn't "too much poo poo to fit into that many pages", it's "Gurm just spent five hundred pages furiously masturbating". I'm pretty sure this could be a four book series if he would cut down on the page count devoted to side stories that don't go anywhere, cut down on the talk about poo poo and piss and trimmed some of the events. One of the things that needs to happen is Tyrion needs to get to Dani. Gurm decided that we needed to see him get kidnapped, get on a boat, follow the boat for five loving chapters, watch the boat get captured by slavers, watch Tyrion get sold, have him go to Dani's city, have him play for her in the arena and then have his slave master die from a plague. None of that was important. You could have just gone directly "Tyrion gets kidnapped" to "There are dwarves jousting in the arena, oh hey, it's Tyrion!" without losing much. He spends too much time looking at what characters are doing when they aren't doing anything important.
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Nov 30, 2011 00:29
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MMD3 posted:GRRM doesn't exactly have the best track record at this point. He's still written more good books than bad but it is a bit alarming that the last good one was over 11 years ago =\
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Nov 30, 2011 00:30
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Ross posted:He's still written more good books than bad but it is a bit alarming that the last good one was over 11 years ago =\ One bad book can tie it. That would be more suspenseful than A Dance with Diarrhea.
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Nov 30, 2011 02:23
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My problem isn't even that it's all unimportant build up, it's that it's all unimportant build up that leads to nothing but blue balls. If there were a tiny whit of payoff for most of the stories the excessive buildup wouldn't bother me much. It's just that there's all this build up and they cut (or he never wrote) the big events that pay off the 500 page crappy sidequest garbage.
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Nov 30, 2011 03:54
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NovemberMike posted:You could have just gone directly "Tyrion gets kidnapped" to "There are dwarves jousting in the arena, oh hey, it's Tyrion!" without losing much. He spends too much time looking at what characters are doing when they aren't doing anything important. Dude is trying to write character development. Tyrion is thinking about his father and Jaime, and the common folk, and what his new role will be. The events of his travel are just there as a framework allowing observation of this development. Tyrion's story in this book wasn't about getting him to Dany, it was about getting him to a place mentally so he could interact with Dany in the way GRRM wants. Unfortunately the development had way too much time devoted to it considering how expected and very undramatic it was.
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Nov 30, 2011 03:56
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The problem is that he spent too much time on it all and it happened away from other characters. If he'd moved Tyrion into Dani's city and then had all of the character development happen then we'd have "Tyrion witnesses events that matter and that changes him" rather than "Tyrion witnesses events that nobody will ever give a poo poo about and it changes him". I swear there's been a theme of isolating characters on boats too...
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Nov 30, 2011 04:32
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What characters have had real development? Jaime, Arya. Cersei doesn't count. Pretty much everyone else has just had stuff done to them and then done stuff.
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Nov 30, 2011 05:20
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NovemberMike posted:The thing is that he can totally fit all of that into two books.  quote:He says that wrapping everything up in two more books is "my plan, my intent, that's what I'm going to try to do. But at this point, I know better than to promise anything and write it out in blood." And he reiterates that the series was originally planned as just a trilogy, and it's grown quite a bit since then.
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Nov 30, 2011 05:38
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Simon Draskovic posted:You're adorable. Books 4, 5, and 6 of the epic saga: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftlfPb0gyxI
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Nov 30, 2011 05:44
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Simon Draskovic posted:You're adorable. That was pretty much my point. If he had an editor willing to punch him in his pizza filled gut then he'd still have a loving trilogy. The problem is that rather than writing an outline and trying to figure out how to fit everything into each book he's furiously masturbating to the image of siblings loving each other on a mound of greasy pizzas.
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Nov 30, 2011 05:59
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Bonus Books 
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Nov 30, 2011 13:28
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Do you have a source for all this GRRM masturbation?
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Nov 30, 2011 16:50
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hailthefish posted:My problem isn't even that it's all unimportant build up, it's that it's all unimportant build up that leads to nothing but blue balls. If there were a tiny whit of payoff for most of the stories the excessive buildup wouldn't bother me much. It's just that there's all this build up and they cut (or he never wrote) the big events that pay off the 500 page crappy sidequest garbage. What's worse are big events with zero build up. ie: little kids ceasaring nuncle Lannister. It's almost as if gurm thinks he is clever by attempting to keep our attention over there ---> When he really intends to do something clever over <--- there.
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Nov 30, 2011 17:18
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Vertigus posted:Books 4, 5, and 6 of the epic saga: That's awesome. I also sometime feel like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uvm3GixEj4&feature=related when reading ASoI&F. The last chapter of the last book: "haHA!" Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Nov 30, 2011 |
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Nov 30, 2011 17:23
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Fog Tripper posted:What's worse are big events with zero build up. ie: little kids ceasaring nuncle Lannister. Yeah, its kind of annoying. I'm pretty sure that without this thread I would've totally forgotten Kevan being killed by the time the next book comes out, even if the next book came out in within a reasonable time frame.
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Nov 30, 2011 17:42
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Kekekela posted:Yeah, its kind of annoying. I'm pretty sure that without this thread I would've totally forgotten Kevan being killed by the time the next book comes out, even if the next book came out in within a reasonable time frame. I do agree on the comment in general, though, but a better example IMO would be Dany's dragons being born back in AGOT in a single, kind of throwaway sentence after that enormous amount of buildup over her chapters and especially the last one. It just deflated like a balloon.
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Dec 1, 2011 01:15
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Joramun posted:Really? The scenes in which POV characters die especially always really stick with me, because he writes it in this visceral way that almost makes it feel like what dying yourself must actually feel like. I felt that arrow lunging into my own chest as I read Kevan's death, the power and shock and offense of the impact. Same with Pate and Catelyn, to give some other examples. Harrowing, fascinating reading experiences. Sure, if its a POV like Ned, or even Jaime losing his hand. I never felt that kind of attachment to uncle Kev though, he just always seemed overshadowed by the rest of his clan (not in actual political influence within the realm, but in terms of making the reader take notice of him)
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Dec 1, 2011 01:24
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Kekekela posted:Sure, if its a POV like Ned, or even Jaime losing his hand. I never felt that kind of attachment to uncle Kev though, he just always seemed overshadowed by the rest of his clan (not in actual political influence within the realm, but in terms of making the reader take notice of him) Ned didn't die in a POV chapter so he doesn't count, he died in Arya's chapter. His death is harrowing for another reason: you heart just breaks for that little girl losing her father.
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Dec 1, 2011 01:28
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Kekekela posted:Sure, if its a POV like Ned, or even Jaime losing his hand. I never felt that kind of attachment to uncle Kev though, he just always seemed overshadowed by the rest of his clan (not in actual political influence within the realm, but in terms of making the reader take notice of him) He just kind of seemed cool and he was the first person (who wasn't Tyrion) to tell Cersei to stop being a giant poo poo. Too bad he died like a little bitch.
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Dec 1, 2011 01:34
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Contra Calculus posted:He just kind of seemed cool and he was the first person (who wasn't Tyrion) to tell Cersei to stop being a giant poo poo. Well to be fair, he was as good as dead when Jaime and his men cut down Jory and ganged up on him. 
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Dec 1, 2011 01:36
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Fog Tripper posted:Well to be fair, he was as good as dead when Jaime and his men cut down Jory and ganged up on him. I was talking about uncle Kev, man. I guess that really wasn't clear though considering the guy I quoted referred to three different characters.
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Dec 1, 2011 01:54
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Fog Tripper posted:What's worse are big events with zero build up. ie: little kids ceasaring nuncle Lannister. To play Azure Horizon for a moment: the little kids aren't zero build up. The "little birds" were around since book one's Arya eavesdropping chapter, and explicitly explained by GRRMllyrio himself. Kevan dying wasn't really unexpected, either. Varys is correct in his assessment that almost every side has some obvious reason to want Kevan dead, and it would hardly have been shocking for Cersei to kill Kevan because she's an idiot, or the Tyrells to murder him because he's the last obstacle in their way, or the High Septon to do it in order to make the church look more stable by comparison, etc. Hell, it's something we wouldn't blink twice at if Littlefinger had it arranged. What completely lacked any but the most tenuous of buildup is the appearance of our Lilac Messiah Sue, He of the Many Ascribed Virtues.
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Dec 1, 2011 02:00
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Contra Calculus posted:I was talking about uncle Kev, man. I guess that really wasn't clear though considering the guy I quoted referred to three different characters. I should have read more slowly. I think my reading ability has been altered by gurm.  whowhatwhere posted:To play Azure Horizon for a moment: Mere existence equates to build up?
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Dec 1, 2011 02:26
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Joramun posted:Ned didn't die in a POV chapter so he doesn't count, he died in Arya's chapter. His death is harrowing for another reason: you heart just breaks for that little girl losing her father. Well, you said POV character in the post I was replying to, which Ned was. And the reason it resonated with me was because he was a central character that I had grown attached to, not because of empathy for Arya. Honestly I didn't even remember Kevan having POV's in this book, I thought he died in the epilogue. He wasn't someone that I really cared or thought that much about, for me he was an ancillary character in the Cersei chapters in ADWD, despite his importance to the Westerosi politics. The point is it just didn't really resonate with me. Its cool that it did with you, but this seems like a matter of opinion so I doubt either of us is going to convince the other that his viewpoint is the correct one. Kekekela fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 02:28
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Fog Tripper posted:That's awesome. You... this is Hall-of-Fame worthy in my book. You've contributed a work of short genius to this thread, in hitting a target none of us could otherwise see. You've found the perfect visual metaphor for the narrative structure of Books 4, 5, and 6.
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Dec 1, 2011 02:38
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DirtyRobot posted:ADWD also hints that Dany has to go to Asshai first before going to Westeros. So in one sense yes, we are further away than we were at the beginning of the book. This has been hinted at since Book One. Ever since I first read "in the shadowlands beyond Asshai" I was all "oh there is no way we aren't seeing those lands somewhere between 2/3-7/8ths of the epic, and Dany is the perfect character to end up going there." Not only that, but since then as she gets further and further and loving further away from Westeros it seemed that she'd end up wrapping her way around the globe (is it a globe? Did GRRM cover that in the "it's a fantasy world not sci-fi stop with the astrophysics" chat?) and getting back to Westeros. And then there's the fact that a lot of magic sources that aren't Dragon/Others related seem to originate there, though the R'hollor crap and the Rock-Virus in Book 6 mutes a fair bit of that. But knowing GRRM these days he'll introduce some new Meereenese group of characters, one of whom ends up on a boat to Asshai at the end of Book 7 and shows up there in a epilogue to tease the fans about the further "mystery" the world holds. There will be no book 7.
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Dec 1, 2011 02:43
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Kekekela posted:Well, you said POV character in the post I was replying to, which Ned was. Kekekela posted:And the reason it resonated was because he was a central character that I had grown attached to, not because of empathy for his fictional daughter.
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Dec 1, 2011 03:11
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Joramun posted:We didn't ultimately experience his death from his POV, like with Catelyn, Kevan, possibly Jon, etc., so it's quite different. (Another instance like Ned's is in ADWD: Quentyn. He is also a POV character that ultimately dies in someone else's chapter, not that his death is comparable or the effect as impactful as Ned's, but just to illustrate the difference of the visceral feeling those deaths inside the character's mind and body evoke.) quote:If you didn't feel for Arya there, you must be some kind of robot or overly jaded.  My point was that the reason it was a big deal was because Ned was such a central character. Would it have been such a big deal for you if we'd never been introduced to Ned and were just seeing Arya having to witness the death of her father that we knew nothing about? Sure it would have emotional impact, but nothing that you don't get in most good fiction. The difference here was that up until that point Ned was the central figure in that book and his getting offed was one of the biggest  moments I can ever remember having read.
Kekekela fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 03:27
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Fog Tripper posted:Mere existence equates to build up? It equates to more buildup than Aegon's survival, which until ADWD was just the speculation of people who were desperately seeking a new twist. Besides, when the "Little Birds" are said to be bound so tightly to Varys, it's perfectly natural to wonder "well then where the hell are they and what are they doing?" Leading to the reveal: they've been continuing their work for Varys, who has been doing all he could to make things worse for the realm. Whether that's good buildup is entirely besides the point. e: also Kevan wasn't someone who was going to deliver a Red Wedding-style showstopper, but he was a pretty cool guy who was probably the best ruler Westeros could have had during this period, since he lacks Tywin's obsession with reputation. Also he seems to be one of the few male nobles who retained a devotion to his wife long after the wedding, which is basically ASOIAF's hint for tragedy right there. All the ones who have cared about their wives died. whowhatwhere fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 03:55
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There's a reason exists. That reason is gone. (That's : asioiaf : by the way) hailthefish fucked around with this message at 05:08 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 04:17
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Why does Dany have to go to asshai? Something that old woman said? I don't remember that at all.
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Dec 1, 2011 04:52
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:Why does Dany have to go to asshai? Something that old woman said? I don't remember that at all. It's just a carrot dangling at the end of the stick. "Ooh here we are in this big world-spanning epic that's going to last thousands of pages and we're mentioning these dark shadowy lands where magic comes from." While never going there is the kind of cheap "twist of convention" I'd expect from GRRM at this point, initially it really did seem like something that was bound to happen at some point. Not necessarily with Dany, but with someone eventually seeing Asshai. At this point we've seen all Seven Kingdoms, the Iron Islands, more than a few of the Slaver Cities, the center of the Red Priests, Oldtown, parts of Valyria, the Free Cities, the Dothraki Sea, the lands beyond the Wall and the Children of the Forest. Asshai is basically the last major piece of the map aside from the Summer Isles that hasn't been explored in-depth at all.
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Dec 1, 2011 05:23
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Vertigus posted:Books 4, 5, and 6 of the epic saga: mind the walrus posted:You... this is Hall-of-Fame worthy in my book. You've contributed a work of short genius to this thread, in hitting a target none of us could otherwise see. You've found the perfect visual metaphor for the narrative structure of Books 4, 5, and 6. mind the walrus posted:And then there's the fact that a lot of magic sources that aren't Dragon/Others related seem to originate there, though the R'hollor crap and the Rock-Virus in Book 6 mutes a fair bit of that. Did I just awaken from a coma and the year is roughly 2019-ish? Six books? Or are we just automatically assuming Winds of Winter will be more of the same? Because we don't know that at all, it could be less Feast for Crows and more Storm of Swords. it won't be
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Dec 1, 2011 05:23
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mind the walrus posted:You... this is Hall-of-Fame worthy in my book. You've contributed a work of short genius to this thread, in hitting a target none of us could otherwise see. You've found the perfect visual metaphor for the narrative structure of Books 4, 5, and 6. It's all in the buildup, my man. edit: I to this day believe that the guard on the right (hayyy!) is Jimmy Page in a cameo. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 05:38
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Nope, I'm just a moron who forgot how to count. Though I am also assuming that Winds of Winter will be more of the same. Basically nothing but the Stannis plot getting stuck by a Snowstorm only spread out over every POV save maybe Dany, who retreads crap with the Dothraki because it's easier to remember their crap than invent more Mereen poo poo.
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Dec 1, 2011 05:39
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Just remembered more zombies in the series: The mummified warlock folks sitting around a table with a beating heart hovering above the table. Another part of the story that I just don't grok. If magic was steadily building, how are these "beings" explained? Weren't they said to be ancient? gently caress you gurm. gently caress you with a zombie penis. Ice zombies Fire zombies Dust.... zombies? Plants zombies (the dude who lives under the earth and is part tree. Zombie?) Ballz posted:Did I just awaken from a coma and the year is roughly 2019-ish? Six books? Or are we just automatically assuming Winds of Winter will be more of the same? Because we don't know that at all, it could be less Feast for Crows and more Storm of Swords. it won't be The confusing thing is how to refer to AFFC and ADwD. 2 halves of book 4? Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 05:45
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Wanna see Tall Trees Town, bet the Summer Islanders throw wicked parties up in there all the time.
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Dec 1, 2011 07:04
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Fog Tripper posted:Just remembered more zombies in the series: The mummified warlock folks sitting around a table with a beating heart hovering above the table. Another part of the story that I just don't grok. If magic was steadily building, how are these "beings" explained? Weren't they said to be ancient? What kind of zombie is "Ser Robert Strong" then? A rape zombie?
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Dec 1, 2011 07:09
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