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NovemberMike posted:The thing is that he can totally fit all of that into two books. The problem isn't "too much poo poo to fit into that many pages", it's "Gurm just spent five hundred pages furiously masturbating". I'm pretty sure this could be a four book series if he would cut down on the page count devoted to side stories that don't go anywhere, cut down on the talk about poo poo and piss and trimmed some of the events. You're spot on with that. I think it's telling when I really don't care about, or remember, anything from the last two books. Tyrion's adventure in Dance is a great example of everything wrong with the series. We get Tyrion trying to get to Dany but doing it in four different ways, and still failing to reach his goal at the end of the novel. I'm confident in the next book Dany is going to suppress the meereen nobels and wipe out the slavers, with Tyrion encouraging her to invade Westeros. The problem is that we could of easily had all of that happen in Dance. I just fail to see the point of Aegon, he's essentially filling Dany's role as an invader coming to usurp the crown. It just doesn't make any sense why it isn't Dany doing that, and why he would suddenly write in a new character when we're so far into the series. GRRM is stuck in some perpetual black hole where he has to write the middle part of the series over and over again. He's atoning for cornering all the characters into a position where it's impossible to get a satisfying conclusion, so to solve it he's simply adding new characters! hemale in pain fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 08:03
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NoneSuch posted:GRRM is stuck in some perpetual black hole where he has to write the middle part of the series over and over again. He's atoning for cornering all the characters into a position where it's impossible to get a satisfying conclusion, so to solve it he's simply adding new characters! It's like the movie Groundhog Day, but instead of living the same day over and over again until he gets it right, he's writing the same books and eating the same pizza and blogging about football over and over again until he dies.
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Dec 1, 2011 08:44
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I don't see why everyone is freaking out about Aegon. Yes, it's strange for a character who holds such importance to be introduced in the 5th of a 7 part series, but people have suspected he's still around since the beginning and GRRM basically told everyone that in an interview years ago. Yeah, it's very convenient that he has all the right qualities, but he's been raised from day 1 to be king, by the people who cared about his father/him the most. This isn't unheard of, or even far-fetched, especially in a series where we have Robb the King, Lord Commander Jon, and faceless assassin Arya. And he's not perfect, he's already shown that he's pretty arrogant and I won't be at all surprised if he catches a spear before the end of the series because of it (which if that happens too stupidly/soon I will be forced to agree with his detractors). People bitch about Aegon like it would have been better to have 20 more chapters of Dany doing fuckall. Personally I'm glad we have a character who doesn't spend all his time making the worst decisions imaginable. You're acting like "maybe instead of wasting my time in Slaver's Bay I should just go to Westeros" is a thought so groundbreaking it can only come from PERFECT MARY SUE, when it's something we all (excluding GRRM) knew since book 1.
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Dec 1, 2011 09:39
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Dany being off in her own story, unconnected to the main plot, has been tedium incarnate since at least Storm of Swords. There's just not enough happening with her ever to warrant as many chapters as GRRM meanders through in an attempt to keep it equal with things in westeros. By this point in the series, I was really hoping she would actually be on her way to relevance, not slipping away further into the margins.
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Dec 1, 2011 15:43
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Bonesnap posted:I don't see why everyone is freaking out about Aegon. Yes, it's strange for a character who holds such importance to be introduced in the 5th of a 7 part series, but people have suspected he's still around since the beginning and GRRM basically told everyone that in an interview years ago. Suspecting he's been around and hearing it interviews is an implication of Aegon's involvement. He was still pulled out of GRRM's rear end like the star of his own mini-novel, and all he's done so far is add onto the pile of "poo poo that needs to get sorted in 2 books." The most he did was show up on the Westerosi radar, which while admittedly more than nearly any other character has done in the last two books, you have to also admit that isn't a high hurdle to clear. And we got 20 more chapters of Dany doing fuckall anyway, it's not like his addition alleviated that problem one bit. hailthefish posted:What kind of zombie is "Ser Robert Strong" then? Franken-Gregor. That much is obvious, which is why GRRM is going to pull the mask off and have him instead be some composite that has Gregor parts or something equally dumb, because it's a TWIST on CONVENTION.
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Dec 1, 2011 15:43
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mind the walrus posted:Franken-Gregor. That much is obvious, which is why GRRM is going to pull the mask off and have him instead be some composite that has Gregor parts or something equally dumb, because it's a TWIST on CONVENTION. WHOSE HEAD IS IT?! doesn't strike me as a particularly exciting mystery. OR DOES HE HAVE A HEAD AT ALL?!
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Dec 1, 2011 16:12
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Joramun posted:Really? The scenes in which POV characters die especially always really stick with me, because he writes it in this visceral way that almost makes it feel like what dying yourself must actually feel like I thought the saddest death in the series was poor little Podrick, Tyrion's page. Maybe it is because I'm getting older and am thinking of having kids, but the thought of a brave little 10 year old boy kicking and thrashing for life while being hung was more poignant to me most anything else written in this series. It was a shame he had to meet his end in a Brianne chapter, though. That was the greatest tragedy of all.
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Dec 1, 2011 16:29
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hailthefish posted:What kind of zombie is "Ser Robert Strong" then? gently caress. I forgot about him. I guess he'd be "Convenient Zombie". I doubt we'll ever get an explanation for his reanimation. I guess the "power of evil" and "really really wanting it a lot". Seriously, I hope all of the zombie creators get a chance to hang out and discuss their processes, exchange notes and such. The ice guys have it easy. They get to kill people and they simply come back as zombies. The R'lllorlrlrlrlrlr folks have to go around french kissing corpses. Anyhoo, One of the great things about the first books was that it was a low-magic world. Politics (GAME OF THRONES, DONCHA KNOW) and family intrigue were what made them stand out from the Shanara-esqe books. gently caress you, gurm. Hot Dog Day #82 posted:I thought the saddest death in the series was poor little Podrick, Tyrion's page. Maybe it is because I'm getting older and am thinking of having kids, but the thought of a brave little 10 year old boy kicking and thrashing for life while being hung was more poignant to me most anything else written in this series. It was a shame he had to meet his end in a Brianne chapter, though. That was the greatest tragedy of all. Wait, what? How did I miss Pod dying? (I already know the answer) mind the walrus posted:
Ned's penis. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 17:08
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What about that little island or whatever where they eat people?
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Dec 1, 2011 17:16
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Skagos. It seems to be a pretty big island, looks to be around the size of Iceland/Ireland (given the ludicrous scale of Westeros). Re: FrankenGregor: Wasn't Robert Strong supposed to be impossibly huge? Like, so huge that even Gregor's armor wouldn't fit and they had to commission a larger one? I'm pretty sure that it's not supposed to be some twist that it's more than just Gregor, given how Qyburn was asking for more and more people.
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Dec 1, 2011 17:36
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Fog Tripper posted:
Yup! He checks out in the last Brienne chapter in AFFC. I forget the specifics, but it talks about how she looks at Pod kicking for breath while she herself is being hanged right before she calls out for mercy (or whatever word it was she yelled). One can't be certain he is truly dead, of course, since if they cut her down then they may have cut down her adopted squire as well. I assume he is gone for good, though, since his crimes of being Tyrion's boy are probably too great for zombie-catelyn to let slide Hot Dog Day #82 fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 17:39
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whowhatwhere posted:Skagos. It seems to be a pretty big island, looks to be around the size of Iceland/Ireland (given the ludicrous scale of Westeros). Zombification may have side effects, including irate bowel, swelling, loss of basic motor skills, and sometimes death... again. Hot Dog Day #82 posted:Yup! He checks out in the last Brienne chapter in AFFC. I forget the specifics, but it talks about how she looks at Pod kicking for breath while she herself is being hanged right before she calls out for mercy (or whatever word it was she yelled). One can't be certain he is truly dead, of course, since if they cut her down then they may have cut down her adopted squire as well. I assume he is gone for good, though, since his crimes of being Tyrion's boy are probably too great for zombie-catelyn to let slide Well, perhaps he can be brought back as a zombie, via the power of *fartz* If Pod is truly dead, it impacts me more than Kevan being offed. Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 17:59
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Fog Tripper posted:Zombification may have side effects, including irate bowel, swelling, loss of basic motor skills, and sometimes death... again. Consult a physician if you experience fantasy series lasting more than 10-12 years.
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Dec 1, 2011 18:04
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Intel&Sebastian posted:Consult a physician if you experience fantasy series lasting more than 10-12 years. In rare circumstances, lack of plot advancement may occur. If frequent bouts of pizza gorging or viewing of american football occur, one may find relief in the attendance of comicons. Vaginal bleeding may become prominent if red berries are consumed.
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Dec 1, 2011 18:11
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If thoughts of suicide persist, stop reading A Song of Ice and Fire immediately and contact your local bookstore for treatment.
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Dec 1, 2011 18:22
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Fog Tripper posted:Anyhoo, One of the great things about the first books was that it was a low-magic world. Politics (GAME OF THRONES, DONCHA KNOW) and family intrigue were what made them stand out from the Shanara-esqe books. gently caress you, gurm. I think this is why I am losing interest in this book. If everything is magic you can just spackle up all your plot holes and other lazy bullshit with razmataz and the power of r'holloaholloaholla.
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Dec 1, 2011 18:28
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The low magic and lack of species other than humans were my main selling points when trying to get my fantasy-hating husband to give the show a chance. He ended up loving it but I predict I'll be making a lot of apologies as the series moves forward. The larger presence of magic and the Children of the Forest showing up was one of my main issues with Dance. Not only is it dull, but he adds insult to injury by making the series more and more like standard fantasy. It's disappointing.
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Dec 1, 2011 19:01
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Finally decided I will be selling off my signed first editions (first two volumes). Don't really want to wait until their value takes a poo poo. I just have to figure out what moving box they reside in. loving doors with faces with mouths opening wide enough to walk through. A loving wizard did it. gently caress Xanth without the puns Fog Tripper fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 19:25
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rockamiclikeavandal posted:I think this is why I am losing interest in this book. If everything is magic you can just spackle up all your plot holes and other lazy bullshit with razmataz and the power of r'holloaholloaholla. The idea that this series was low magic to begin with was erased by the end of the first novel. The term you're looking for is "low fantasy", and it's still got that label.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:20
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Azure_Horizon posted:The idea that this series was low magic to begin with was erased by the end of the first novel. The term you're looking for is "low fantasy", and it's still got that label. Are you really going to attempt this argument just to troll? The level/frequency of magic in the first couple books is a loving FRACTION of the oozing-out-of-every-zombie-pore of the last 2. I mean for christ sake, we have what like 5 loving flavors of zombies alone at this point.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:23
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Azure_Horizon posted:The idea that this series was low magic to begin with was erased by the end of the first novel. The term you're looking for is "low fantasy", and it's still got that label. I really haven't spent much time in this thread so I don't know the history of this argument, but having read the books I really can't agree with this. I actually remember reading spoilers from the later books after finishing the first and thinking 'wow, this series...really changed tone, didn't it?' loving zombie characters. It surprised me that it had gone in that direction because I thought GRRM was really committed to a fairly low-magic setting, or one in which all the magic was at least ambiguous.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:25
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Azure_Horizon posted:The idea that this series was low magic to begin with was erased by the end of the first novel. General Battuta posted:I actually remember reading spoilers from the later books after finishing the first and thinking 'wow, this series...really changed tone, didn't it?' loving zombie characters. Joramun fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 21:31
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Joramun posted:The prologue, even. Exactly. I don't think I've ever once believed that the series was low magic.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:33
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Azure_Horizon posted:Exactly. I don't think I've ever once believed that the series was low magic. You're right. It's Harry Potter level. Why am I bothering to argue with A_H and a parachute account?
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Dec 1, 2011 21:35
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Fog Tripper posted:You're right. It's Harry Potter level. The same reason I don't bother to argue with you and your consistently terrible trolling.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:38
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Joramun posted:Again, those were there right from the prologue of AGOT. So you should have bailed out about ten minutes into the series. Who said anything about bailing out? I also don't recall any named characters dying and coming back as still-conscious zombie versions of themselves in the prologue, but hey maybe I forgot something  There was definitely a big tonal shift as the series went on. For me at least it lost some of its appeal as it became more complex and fantastic. Azure_Horizon posted:The same reason I don't bother to argue with you and your consistently terrible trolling. Hey, you're the one who spent all that time pretending to unironically like the Dune prequels, don't be calling the kettle black. 
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Dec 1, 2011 21:47
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I don't see how anyone can argue against the fact that the series became way more saturated with magic after book 3. I mean, seriously, they made a good point and you argue semantics? Just a heads up, it makes you look like a real arsehole.
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Dec 1, 2011 21:59
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Jakabite posted:I don't see how anyone can argue against the fact that the series became way more saturated with magic after book 3. I mean, seriously, they made a good point and you argue semantics? Just a heads up, it makes you look like a real arsehole. Hey, we speak american here, you! 
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Dec 1, 2011 22:05
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General Battuta posted:I also don't recall any named characters dying and coming back as still-conscious zombie versions of themselves in the prologue, but hey maybe I forgot something
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Dec 1, 2011 22:09
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Low magic and no magic are two different things, and a few magical things happening doesn't make something not a low magic setting.
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Dec 1, 2011 22:12
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Joramun posted:That's exactly what happens in the prologue. Seems you have indeed forgotten about Waymar Royce. Though I assume you threw in the little bit about consciousness to turn this into a tiresome discussion about semantics and divert attention away from the real issue, which is that you knew exactly what you were in for right from the very beginning.  I think we drew very different things from that prologue, but yeesh, do you have to be so hostile about it? The direction the series took with regards to magic surprised me and seemed like a change from the first book (couple books?). If you disagree, okay, I guess we differ, please take it in good faith and not as some kind of complex plot to start an argument. e: join date yesterday? Come on, that's a little obvious 
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Dec 1, 2011 22:18
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Alright, I think I got it figured out. Aegon meets up with Jon, plunges his sword into Connigton's chest to make it Lightbringer, and they wipe out the Others. Jon rules the North and the Wall, Aegon takes the rest of the continent, while Daenerys rules Mereen and any other cities she can explosively poop on. There you go, the three Targs ruling three kingdoms. That knocks out the "dragon has three heads". Val marries Aegon after falling in love with him while watching him kill Others, making it the Song of Ice (since she's from beyond the wall) and Fire. On a more serious note, how plausible is it that Varys was the one who goaded Joff into killing Ned? Ned seems like he would have been a more capable Kevan, and we know Varys doesn't want anyone competent running the show. Is there a direct quote for Littlefingers suggestion re: Ned? Cersei's comment about Littlefinger didn't jump out at me as a convincing clue.
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Dec 1, 2011 22:39
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Ice Zombies -> a large breed of wolf -> DRAGONS -> a redhead who sucks at fortune telling -> a guy who can change his appearance -> a spirit journey -> .......... -> Zombie Catelyn -> Zombie Gregor -> and then book 5 rolls around and there's telepaths and spirits and magic tree gnomes and the magic brain tree from Avatar and magic doorways and so on. Magic went from this tiny background thing that only happened a few times per book to this omnipresent "YOU ARE READING A FANTASY NOVEL". The best book, Storm, was almost entirely sneaky politics and warfare and murder plots, and it kicks rear end. Dance was basically "1,001 really stupid Arabian Nights" that ends with Jon not dying and Dany with a case of rocket spray-dooks. The only real redeeming part of the last 2 books was fat Manderly pwning the Freys.
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Dec 1, 2011 22:47
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Shroud posted:Alright, I think I got it figured out. Aegon meets up with Jon, plunges his sword into Connigton's chest to make it Lightbringer, and they wipe out the Others. Jon rules the North and the Wall, Aegon takes the rest of the continent, while Daenerys rules Mereen and any other cities she can explosively poop on. There you go, the three Targs ruling three kingdoms. That knocks out the "dragon has three heads". Val marries Aegon after falling in love with him while watching him kill Others, making it the Song of Ice (since she's from beyond the wall) and Fire. I wouldn't be suprised if Varys did suggest to kill Ned to him but I feel like that would have been revealed by now beacause it doesn't really change much now either way. Also, Joff was already an evil prick so his decision while shocking is understandable. Are some of you guys kidding about the low magic stuff? The book went from ONLY having some mystical monsters across the wall(perfect level of magic/mysticism) to dragons being born again, shadow babies killing people, being able to see fortunes in flames, magic fire swords, face changing and bringing people back to life. There is no way you aren't trolling if you believe the magic in this book hasn't been gaining steam since he beginning. It's kinda obvious to me he's been using magical things as he kills main characters to keep peoples interest(to me a horrible idea). Oh how am I going to keep a book interesting with everybodys favorite characters dead? MAGIC EVERYWHERE!
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Dec 1, 2011 22:50
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smarion2 posted:Are some of you guys kidding about the low magic stuff? The book went from ONLY having some mystical monsters across the wall(perfect level of magic/mysticism) to dragons being born again, shadow babies killing people, being able to see fortunes in flames, magic fire swords, face changing and bringing people back to life. There is no way you aren't trolling if you believe the magic in this book hasn't been gaining steam since he beginning.
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Dec 1, 2011 22:57
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Joramun posted:That's exactly what happens in the prologue. Seems you have indeed forgotten about Waymar Royce. Though I assume you threw in the little bit about consciousness to turn this into a tiresome discussion about semantics and divert attention away from the real issue, which is that you knew exactly what you were in for right from the very beginning. neongrey posted:Low magic and no magic are two different things, and a few magical things happening doesn't make something not a low magic setting. Battuta has a drat good point and you both know it. It's still a low magic setting, but I wouldn't say by much. At current rate it's going to be full-blown Dragon vs. Zombie battles, and while we had hints of that from Book One I personally didn't expect nearly every major faction in the books to have individually run into direct manifestations of magic that will indirectly or directly impact the resolution of their narratives. Jakabite posted:I don't see how anyone can argue against the fact that the series became way more saturated with magic after book 3. I mean, seriously, they made a good point and you argue semantics? Just a heads up, it makes you look like a real arsehole. What he said. Books 4 and 5 have so much more magic than the first 3 it is a point of valid recognition without it just being "hating" or semantics. Even with the whole "Magic is bleeding into the world" undercurrent, the pacing is so off and disconnected from the reason most people stuck with the series--interesting politics and intrigue--that it's become a huge part of what the books are about. For gently caress's sake the last book has a magic virus that turns you into an angry golem-monster and it attacks the boat our POV character is on like it's Indiana Jones or Pirates of the Caribbean. Joramun posted:But all that didn't happen all of a sudden after the third book like someone above implied. Melisandre's (admittedly kind of ridiculous) killer vagina shadows were already way back in book 2. If you managed to get through that without giving up due to "too magical", you are in for the long haul. Magic has been there throughout all the books, from the very first chapter. It's evidently just not a valid criticism against AFFC or ADWD. Her vagina shadows show up as the first actual manifestation that "whoa, this psycho scheming bitch might actually have some legitimacy to her whole Fire-Witch claims," bearing in mind that this is a full book before we realize absolutely that she used a jewel as poison to kill the maester at the beginning of book 2 instead of a conventional poison, and even then that's only if we're paying attention at Joffrey's wedding. In other words they aren't just pulled out of nowhere like the rock golems were. I get why those were put in--they give Valyria a sense of ancient magic and menace, they provide an action sequence in the boring-as-gently caress Tyrion plotline, and are a cheap way to give Jon Connington pathos beyond his admittedly interesting-as-gently caress backstory. But they just show up to give the plot a jolt. They don't feel like manifestations of a larger universe beyond the characters the way the magic in Book 1-3, and even a bit in 4 did. They felt like GRRM legitimately needed to spice things up in the Tyrion plotline and pulled out a D&D book for inspiration. That's the kind-of poo poo that causes others and myself to question a tonal shift straight into regular fantasy, especially It's odd, I did expect a serious maturation of magic as the series progressed, but not to this extent. It doesn't bug me to the point where I'd abandon the series--there have been worse crimes against the reader committed already and I'm still here--but it is a valid topic for analysis. Not necessarily criticism, analysis and yes, argument. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Dec 1, 2011 |
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Dec 1, 2011 23:04
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There's no semantics argument here. The point is that magic has been there since the beginning, and has had considerable influence. Once dragons reappeared, it was inevitable that magic was going to saturate the world, and it appears that it is both a wild and almost unilaterally destructive force (see: zombies, greyscale, dragons, vagina shadow demons, et. al.). It really isn't the huge glaring change it's made out to be; it was pretty much foreshadowed.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:14
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Joramun posted:But all that didn't happen all of a sudden after the third book like someone above implied. Melisandre's (admittedly kind of ridiculous) killer vagina shadows were already way back in book 2. If you managed to get through that without giving up due to "too magical", you are in for the long haul. Magic has been there throughout all the books, from the very first chapter. It's evidently just not a valid criticism against AFFC or ADWD. I'll read book 6 and even if it gets more terrible (it will) I'll still read book 7. I don't give up on stories just because I don't like absolutely everything about it. The only thing that would ruin the series even more to me is if he brings back more dead characters or fakes more deaths. What I loved about the series was how crazy it was when people died. It was such a truly holy gently caress moment when Ned and Robb died it evoked emotions in me that most other books have never even come close to. Now when people die I either don't believe it or know its fake and they're coming back. Part of that is from the stupid magic but not all of it being the other part is GRRM is a fat fucker.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:14
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Azure_Horizon posted:There's no semantics argument here. The point is that magic has been there since the beginning, and has had considerable influence. Once dragons reappeared, it was inevitable that magic was going to saturate the world, and it appears that it is both a wild and almost unilaterally destructive force (see: zombies, greyscale, dragons, vagina shadow demons, et. al.). It really isn't the huge glaring change it's made out to be; it was pretty much foreshadowed. So what's your point exactly? To point out how stupid readers who say "hey, there's a fuckton more but it's not progressing in a manner we like or enjoy, let's talk about why?" We all know that magic was foreshadowed, that's why we say it's a semantics argument. Your entire thesis seems to predicate on "Magic was always in the series, thus it is dumb to analyze the glut of magic that has appeared since then." Considering how long we're all likely to be waiting for GRRM to keel off and finish the series, in that order, that's negative to the point of being a real rear end in a top hat.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:18
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mind the walrus posted:So what's your point exactly? To point out how stupid readers who say "hey, there's a fuckton more but it's not progressing in a manner we like or enjoy, let's talk about why?" Pot calling the kettle black regarding some people in this thread, but sure, yes, I'm being an rear end in a top hat. Analyze the magic all you want, but it's not an actual negative that magic is saturating the novels at this point. There are a multitude of things to bitch about AFFC and ADWD, apparently, but the increase in magic isn't really one of them. It is a fantasy series, so I don't see why this is so shocking or revelatory.
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Dec 1, 2011 23:23
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