Forza Motorsport 4

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Forza Motorsport 4

Kenny Rogers: Sep 7, 2007; Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.

FreelanceSocialist posted:

Jabs, can you double-check your Power-to-Weight methodology? The Genesis Coupe I am trying to tune cannot meet the 12.2 ratio. That would mean at 306hp, my minimum weight would be over 3700 pounds. What am I supposed to do, put a Datsun in the trunk?

edit: holy gently caress nogic give me my goddamn brain back - I forgot to refresh the thread and am doing the same drat thing

Yeah, I'm at work, so I can't check them in game. The actual formula is in the first few pages of the rulebook I linked .
I'm sure part of it is that NASA uses wheel HP.

EDIT: I left the E46's out because the E46 M3 is specifically excluded, but I guess since I included the "uprated" versions of some of the other cars (the b.spec Legacy, f'rinstance), if nobody 'protests', I won't have a problem.
If that's the case, should I lop on the 2000 Audi S4, as well?

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 00:28

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 14:39

jadebullet: Mar 25, 2011; MY LIFE FOR YOU!

I noticed that they have E46s in that category. Can I run my E46 with the ratios given?

# ? Dec 2, 2011 02:39

Ringo Star Get: Sep 18, 2006; JUST FUCKING TAKE OFF ALREADY, SHIT

Jabs posted:

We're stepping up our game here a GoonSpec Laboratories!
I think there will be a few issues to hammer out with this, so:
A) I'm posting it as early as I can.
B) I'm planning on running this series for the next several weeks to address issues/questions/misunderstandings, etc.

Come one, come all to the first of (N >= 4) Wednesday GoonSpec Endurance Races!

WHO: YOU!!!
WHEN: Wednesday, 7 December 2011, 3AM GMT (7PM PST/10PM EST), with warmup/practice starting 1 hour earlier.
WHERE: Your Friendly Local XBOX Live Account!!

WHAT?
A RACE THAT WILL LIIIIIVE IN INFAAAAMY!

This week, we step it up a notch and visit the NASA US Touring Car Championship!
Remember: Patience and accuracy count!

Non-incidental contact that results in upsetting a competitor�s car (moves them off their racing line, requires corrective steering input to remain in control, etc.) will require a mandatory �Drive-through� penalty on pit lane. Multiple contacts in the same lap will require multiple drive-throughs on consecutive laps.

CAR:
Pick an eligible car off of this list:
http://www.ustcc.com/pdf_doc/2011_VSS.pdf

Minimum Weight = HP * 11.3
2001 Acura/Honda Integra
Mazdaspeed RX-8
Mini Cooper S
2003 Toyota Celica

Minimum Weight = HP * 11.5
Acura RSX
Honda Prelude SiR

Minimum Weight = HP * 11.7
Chevy Cobalt SS
Dodge SRT-4
Mazdaspeed 3

Minimum Weight = HP * 12.2
BMW E36 M3
Hyundai Genesis Coupe

Minimum Weight = HP * 12.45
Ford Taurus SHO
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VIII
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO X
Subaru Legacy
2003 VW R32

If you'd like to refer to the NASA published rules, they are here:

PAINT:
The car should have an overall appearance of a dedicated-use non-street legal racecar being entered into a relatively high profile race series.
Some samples include:
http://www.ustcc.com/photos/06_08_pir/images/ustcc_22.jpg
http://www.ustcc.com/photos/06_08_pir/images/ustcc_07.jpg
http://www.ustcc.com/photos/05_sema/images/ustcc_01.jpg
http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/DOBSON.jpg
http://www.ustcc.com/photos/06_06_pir/images/ustcc_22.jpg
etc.
A clearly visible number on all 4 sides of the car.
Manufacturer's Logo
Driver's Name
Nitto Tire
Assorted other sponsor decals, including NASA and/or USTCC.

RESTRICTED MODIFICATIONS
Car shall use ANY part in ANY location EXCEPT:

ENGINE
Turbocharger: Stock
Supercharger: Stock
Intercooler: Stock
Pistons: Stock
Displacement Modification: Stock

PLATFORM AND HANDLING
Chassis Reinforcement and Roll Cage: Race
Weight Reduction: Any¹

DRIVELINE
Transmission: Race²
Differential: Any³

TIRES AND RIMS
Wheels: Any 17 inch wheel
Tires:
Race Compound in 225/45-17 size⁴,

TUNING
1 - Calculate your HP/weight ratio, and adjust Weight Reduction components to meet your power to weight ratio.
2 - Consult the linked PDF for your required transmission and final drive gear ratios.
3 - Center Differentials must remain stock torque split.
4 - 225/40-18 may be used as an alternate in cases where there is no 17″ rim available.

Scoring
5 points for taking the green flag.

10 points for first place.
7 points for second place.
5 points for third place.
4 points for fourth place.
3 points for fifth place.
2 points for sixth place.
1 point for seventh place.

1 bonus point for each car behind you that does not DNF.
5 bonus points for "Best Paint" (realistic/believable/reproduction)
5 bonus points for "best" Paint (whimiscal or goony)
1 bonus point for posting your favorite screenshot from the event.
1-5 discretionary bonus points for posting a 15-30 second YouTube video of your favorite moment from the event.

Count me in! (Sigma One)

# ? Dec 2, 2011 02:59

Cojawfee: May 31, 2006; I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Pinky the Cube posted:

Who wouldn't want to pay $7 for this?

Hey guys, Turn 10 should add in every car I've ever driven. Isn't there already a GTO and a celica? Those were the only two cars in your list that looked interesting.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 03:10

Flint Ironstag: Apr 2, 2004; Bob Johnson...oh, wait

Jabs posted:

Yeah, I'm at work, so I can't check them in game. The actual formula is in the first few pages of the rulebook I linked .
I'm sure part of it is that NASA uses wheel HP.

It is wheel HP based over several verified runs on a dyno. And there is also a factor for forced induction (displacement * 1.4) and engine displacement (<1.9L gets boosted, >2.5L gets nerfed). Most of the (quick) calculations I've seen give a 15% loss for manual tranmissions with 2wd, and 20-25% for AWD.

The Rule Book posted:

6.12.2. A wheel horsepower number must be declared on the Series Registration Form to the series before any vehicle competes in the series. See Appendix A for the certificate and requirements. Vehicles may be impounded by the series for further dyno measurements at any time during the season. Any vehicle found to be over their maximum stated horsepower will be considered illegal. Data acquisition will be used during on track sessions to monitor vehicle performance. If the HP number is changed, a new form must be submitted with a new HP number declared. Data acquisition will be used to calculate wheel HP and vehicles will be found illegal if the calculated wheel HP exceed their Series Registration declared HP number.

6.12.3. A base minimum weight must be declared based on the following formula and the horsepower declared in 6.12.2. The minimum weight is calculated using the following formula:
FWD: 11.5 lbs/ stated hp
RWD: 12.0 lbs/ stated hp
AWD: 12.25 lbs/stated hp

1. Turbo or Supercharged vehicles will multiply their current displacement by 1.40 to calculate their effective displacement before applying steps 2-4.
2. Engines 1.9 liters or smaller subtract 0.2 lbs/hp to the above ratio.
3. Engines 2.5 liters or larger add 0.2 lbs/hp to the above ratio.
4. All calculated weights are then rounded down to the nearest 5.0 lbs.

Which puts the Mini at not 11.3, but 11.5 lbs/hp. And I'm not taking the time to check the rest of the list, since I already declared for the Mini.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 03:16

Robawesome: Jul 22, 2005

Jabs posted:

don't forget the Dacia Sandero!

Hey, great news!...

# ? Dec 2, 2011 03:21

Kenny Rogers: Sep 7, 2007; Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.

Flint Ironstag posted:

Which puts the Mini at not 11.3, but 11.5 lbs/hp. And I'm not taking the time to check the rest of the list, since I already declared for the Mini.

Right... I was trying to thread that list together while I was at work. I was wondering why, when I came back to my desk, I had the answer 2.24 in Calculator. =)
Fixt.

Also, I have no idea where Turn 10 gets their HP figure for the E36 M3. That's a RIDICULOUSLY high number. Even highly modified M3's are turning out over **100** fewer HP than Turn 10 claims.

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 03:28

Flint Ironstag: Apr 2, 2004; Bob Johnson...oh, wait

Robawesome posted:

Hey, great news!...

drat. I meant to use that.

But I got lost.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 03:35

jadebullet: Mar 25, 2011; MY LIFE FOR YOU!

Just wondering, what would I do for the min weight of an E46. (I am sure that I could figure it out if I used my brain hard enough, but it is currently drained from studying for a huge accounting test.)

Edit: Assuming you are allowing me to use an E46 that is. (I did test it with the proper gear ratios and with the 330i ratios I was unable to do a 10 minute Nurburgring lap with everything stock but tranny, thus it wouldn't be an M3)

If you aren't allowing it, it is fine by the way, I can run something else. I just love E46s is all.

edit2: Yeah... something tells me that the E46 won't be eligible in the form that I have it. Stock, 380HP means that I would need over 4Klbs in weight, and there is no way that I would be able to meet that requirement. (Car weighs a bit over 2Klbs) I was using the E36 weight ratio by the way. The E46 in the rules might be a different E46, such as the 4 door version. Oh well.

jadebullet fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 03:36

ComfyPants: Mar 20, 2002

xzzy posted:

They really do need a Top Gear car pack, which includes the Reliant Robin, some random motorhome (sorry, caravan), a Mercedes Sprinter, and a school bus.

A "Legends of Top Gear" Pack would be great. I'd love to also see an 80's Toyota Hilux on which you can add an outboard motor in the Aero and Appearence menu, a Ford Transit, an Opel Kadett, a Suzuki Carryall, and a Fiat Panda limousine.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 05:15

jadebullet: Mar 25, 2011; MY LIFE FOR YOU!

I am having a bit of an issue with the power to weight ratio for the race, so I figured I would post and figure out what I am doing wrong

I am messing around with a few cars to see which I like the best for the race, and I was setting up the Hyundai to the spec.

Unfortunately, I have discovered that once I get the car up to spec parts wise, and add all of the weight increasing parts on(minus the really ugly rims) I am still 6lbs underweight, with a weight of 3,666lbs.

The HP is 306, which is the stock HP.
I have no weight reducing parts in the car, so that means no suspension upgrades or anything at all really.
And it is a rear wheel drive car, which according to the rules posted a few post above, would be 306hp X 12.0, which is 3,672lbs.

Of course, if you go off of the rules posted it would be times 12.2, which would make me really underweight.

Am I doing something wrong, or is the Hyundai just an impossible car to get underweight?

Edit: The Evo X is the same way. Also, it does not have 225 tires available to it, just 245s.

jadebullet fucked around with this message at 05:47 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 05:43

Psycho Society: Oct 21, 2010

I'll be racing in the series as well. In game as GnastyGnorc.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 05:58

Kenny Rogers: Sep 7, 2007; Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.

I'm checking each one of them in game to see how they measure up stock.
I'll probably wind up having to apply an 'effective HP modification' to account for the difference between Turn 10 using Crank HP, and NASA wanting Wheel HP.

code:

Minimum Weight = HP * 11.3
2001 Acura/Honda Integra:       195hp/2639# = OK
Mazdaspeed RX-8:                250hp/3100# = OK
2003 Toyota Celica              187hp/2560# = OK

Minimum Weight = HP * 11.5
Mini Cooper S                   163hp/2730# = OK
Acura RSX                       200hp/2820# = OK
Honda Prelude SiR               197hp/2778# = OK

Minimum Weight = HP * 11.7
Chevy Cobalt SS                 260hp/2926# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3042)
Dodge SRT-4                     230hp/2984# = OK
Mazdaspeed 3                    263hp/3153# = OKish (Minimum = 3077)

Minimum Weight = HP * 12.2
BMW E36 M3                      321hp/3219# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3916)
(It also has 81HP more in-game than in reality)
Hyundai Genesis Coupe           306hp/3549# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3733)
BMW E46 M3                      333hp/3415# = BROKEN (Minimum = 4062)

Minimum Weight = HP * 12.45
Ford Taurus SHO                 365hp/4368# = BROKEN (Minimum = 4544)
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VIII      280hp/2822# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3486)
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO X         305hp/3395# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3797)
Subaru Legacy                   276hp/3153# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3436)
2003 VW R32                     241hp/3256# = OK

Here's my proposed fix:
I'm going to try to account for driveline loss for the 'best guess' I have from looking for answers for two hours.

quote:

6.12.3. A base minimum weight must be declared based on the following formula and the horsepower declared in 6.12.2. The minimum weight is calculated using the following formula:
FWD: 9.75 lbs/ stated hp (15% driveline losses)
RWD: 10.2 lbs/ stated hp (20% driveline losses)
AWD: 9.2 lbs/stated hp (25% driveline losses)

1. Turbo or Supercharged vehicles will multiply their current displacement by 1.40 to calculate their effective displacement before applying steps 2-4.
2. Engines 1.9 liters or smaller subtract 0.2 lbs/hp to the above ratio.
3. Engines 2.5 liters or larger add 0.2 lbs/hp to the above ratio.
4. All calculated minimum weights are then rounded down to the nearest 5.0 lbs.

After introducing a factor for the differences between crank and dyno HP, this is what the table looks like:

code:

Minimum Weight = HP * 9.55      (FWD N/A under 1.9L engine)
2001 Acura/Honda Integra:       195hp/2639# = OK
Mazdaspeed RX-8:                250hp/3100# = OK
2003 Toyota Celica              187hp/2560# = OK

Minimum Weight = HP * 9.75      (FWD Standard or Boosted FWD under 1.78L)
Mini Cooper S                   163hp/2730# = OK
Acura RSX                       200hp/2820# = OK
Honda Prelude SiR               197hp/2778# = OK

Minimum Weight = HP * 9.95      (Boosted FWD over 1.78L) 
Chevy Cobalt SS                 260hp/2926# = FIXED (Minimum = 2585)
Dodge SRT-4                     230hp/2984# = OK
Mazdaspeed 3                    263hp/3153# = FIXED (Minimum = 2615)

Minimum Weight = HP *   10.4    (RWD over 2.5L N/A Engine)
BMW E36 M3                      321hp/3219# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3335)
Hyundai Genesis Coupe           306hp/3549# = FIXED  (Minimum = 3180)
BMW E46 M3                      333hp/3415# = BROKEN (Minimum = 3460)

Minimum Weight = HP * 9.4       (AWD - all are boosted)
Ford Taurus SHO                 365hp/4368# = FIXED (Minimum = 3430)
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VIII      280hp/2822# = FIXED (Minimum = 2630)
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO X         305hp/3395# = FIXED (Minimum = 2865)
Subaru Legacy                   276hp/3153# = FIXED (Minimum = 2590)
2003 VW R32                     241hp/3256# = OK    (Minimum = 2265)

Does that look like a reasonable compromise to everyone?
The E36 is completely broken, and I'm removing it from the list. That extra 81HP explains a LOT why I commented 2 weeks ago that my Daily Driver ('97 M3 Sedan) drove NOTHING like that...

The E46 M3 looks like it could be shoehorned in as a replacement with a 0.2 point drop for RWD down to a flat 10.0, with a 0.2 raise for the Genesis and E46 for having more than 2.5 liters on tap. The E46 M3 would have to be basically stock - only 45 pounds of weight reduction to play with.

FWIW: I can get the E46 to 342hp/3485 pounds, which would fit in a "10.0 + 0.2 for over 2.5 liters" RWD scenario.

Thoughts?

Kenny Rogers fucked around with this message at 06:58 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 06:40

jadebullet: Mar 25, 2011; MY LIFE FOR YOU!

Sounds good. I don't know why the hell the E36 is so messed up in this version. They really are solid cars in real life, but in Forza, they are just a big pain in the rear end.

The E46 M3 GT-R is solid as hell at least... if you can get it that is, it being a unicorn and all. (And in my opinion, the best unicorn.)

I am definitely looking forward to this race.

Edit: Quick comment on the gear ratios. The EVOX Lancer Rallyart has 6 gears rather than the 5 listed on the spreadsheet. Also, the spreadsheet doesn't list a final drive setting. Should we just use the final drive of the EVO above it and just keep the 6th gear stock ratio?

jadebullet fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 08:21

GhostDog: Jul 30, 2003; Always see everything.

Jabs posted:

The E36 is completely broken, and I'm removing it from the list. That extra 81HP explains a LOT why I commented 2 weeks ago that my Daily Driver ('97 M3 Sedan) drove NOTHING like that...

The 3.2 litre E36 had 321HP in Europe and 240HP in the US, as far as I understand.

http://www.bmwmregistry.com/model_faq.php?id=15#2

quote:

What makes the E36 M3 3.2 unique?
For the 1996 model year, BMW M replaced the E36 M3 3.0 with the faster and more refined 3.2-liter version. For the European market, this model was fitted with the new S50 B32 engine, an evolution of the S50 B30, as well as a six-speed manual gearbox and detail refinements to the chassis. For the U.S. (and later Canadian) market, the M3 received its own powerplant, the S52, plus ASC+T traction control and a host of chassis upgrades. Both versions were also treated to a few cosmetic alterations.
[...]

How is the Euro-spec M3's 3.2-liter engine (S50 B32) different from the previous version (S50 B30)?
[...]
The result of these changes boosted horsepower from 286 hp (DIN) at 7,000 rpm to 321 hp (DIN) at 7,400 rpm. Maximum torque also increased from 236 lb/ft at 3,600 rpm to 258 lb/ft at 3,250 rpm. This was the first street-legal BMW engine to achieve over 100 hp per liter.

How is the North American 3.2-liter M3 engine (S52) different from the 3.0-liter (S50 B30 USA)?
Unlke the Euro-spec S50 B32, the S52 powerplant is an evolution of the standard production M52 engine. However, it incorporates the following changes over its S50 B30 USA predecessor:
[...]
-Horsepower unchanged at 240 hp (SAE) at 6,000 rpm

GhostDog fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 08:53

Captain Hair: Dec 31, 2007; Of course, that can backfire... some men like their bitches crazy.

Man, this months DLC is pretty sweet. Hopefully it can pull me away from Skyrim, I feel like I've hardly touched on F4, only raced online once!

Of course, racing online is kind of lonely to me, as no combination of controls/headsets work and I end up blasting static at everyone

# ? Dec 2, 2011 11:40

I said come in!: Jun 22, 2004

Got the prices for the DLC cars;

Alfa Romeo Spider - F 145 and 5,000 CR.
Chevrolet Chevelle - D 329 and 60,000 CR.
Ford Escort - E 201 and 35,000 CR.
Ford Raptor - D 280 and 42,000 CR.
Maserati 300 S - C 420 and 1,000,000 CR.
Maserati GT4 - S 674 and 220,000 CR.
Mazda RX-8 - C 411 and 27,000 CR.
Pontiac Fiero - E 233 and 5,000 CR.
Suzuki Monster - R1 878 and 1,000,000 CR.
VW Scirocco - F 102 and 5,000 CR.

I was worried the Suzuki Monster and Maserati 300 S would be ridiculous to afford. Turns out I have just enough credits right now to buy all of these for my garage.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 17:07

TravBot: Oct 10, 2004; If we can hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards Checkmate

I said come in! posted:

Got the prices for the DLC cars;

Maserati 300 S - C 420 and 1,000,000 CR.
Suzuki Monster - R1 878 and 1,000,000 CR.

I was worried the Suzuki Monster and Maserati 300 S would be ridiculous to afford. Turns out I have just enough credits right now to buy all of these for my garage.

Yeah, I'm with you there. I have been saving up for either the TestaRossa or the classic Aston, so to see the 300S come in at that price blew my mind.

And I just cannot wait to drive that Suzuki. Makes me think of the Escudo in GT3 :japan:

# ? Dec 2, 2011 17:10

Fortuitous Bumble: Jan 5, 2007

Is there a reason my Renault 5 Turbo twitters at me whenever I shift? I know some of the turbo cars like to sneeze at you but this is the first one I've tried that makes twittery sounds instead.

Also that wednesday race looks pretty neat, I think I'm at the point where I can often make laps without careening off the course..I just want to make sure I have this right, you're choosing a car, then upgrading the power and reducing weight until you meet the hp/lb limit? I was messing around with the RSX and got it to 2680 lbs and 274 horsepower times 9.75 is 2670 lbs so I think that fits. It would be really nice if there was some sort of restrictor upgrade to let you fine tune power without having to screw around with combos of engine upgrades.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 17:14

Kenny Rogers: Sep 7, 2007; Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.

Fortuitous Bumble posted:

I think I'm at the point where I can often make laps without careening off the course..

Protip: The group who shows up doesn't actually care if you go careening offcourse. By and large we're a bunch of terrible drivers, too. We all pretty much tiptoe through Turn 1, trying not to black flag ourselves.

Fortuitous Bumble posted:

I just want to make sure I have this right, you're choosing a car, then upgrading the power and reducing weight until you meet the hp/lb limit? I was messing around with the RSX and got it to 2680 lbs and 274 horsepower times 9.75 is 2670 lbs so I think that fits. It would be really nice if there was some sort of restrictor upgrade to let you fine tune power without having to screw around with combos of engine upgrades.

Yep, for the most part.
The process I went through last night was to select the car, cage it up under Handling, as required. Add the Race Transmission, Race Brakes, Sway Bars, and Diff so I can tune it properly.
Upgrade to the lightweight Buddy Club wheels, Set the wheel size to 17" and the width to 225-45/17 (or as close as I could get), and Race Compound.
Take the existing weight at this point and divide by the 'class factor' to get my approximate horsepower 'cap'.
Start the balancing game of adding and removing parts and recalculating until I found a balance I was happy with.

It's going to be quite a bit more challenging than Showroom Stock Spec Miata has been - You can build a Spec Miata in, like, 5 minutes.
* Buy a Miata.
* Download Logue 1's Miata Tune off his Storefront.
* Go Race.
* Know for a fact that you're slow because you're a lovely driver, not because it's a crappy tune. :v:

P.S. Boaz - the Spec Miata we've run a couple times is a NASA series, too. =)

# ? Dec 2, 2011 18:27

Bape Culture: Sep 13, 2006

Whos the SAEG goon who is beating me in drift rivals? :stonk:

# ? Dec 2, 2011 18:33

Pinky the Cube: Jul 21, 2010

Jabs posted:

Protip: The group who shows up doesn't actually care if you go careening offcourse. By and large we're a bunch of terrible drivers, too. We all pretty much tiptoe through Turn 1, trying not to black flag ourselves.

I take comfort in this, as I'd like to participate in one of these in the future. For now I'm reading the literature suggested in the OP until I actually understand the requirements you post. Nerds, the lot of yah!

# ? Dec 2, 2011 18:44

SirViver: Oct 22, 2008

Ugh, so, an update came out, fixing the 900� steering. Sorta. The cars are incredibly twitchy now even in 900� steering, but once the rear comes around you can barely catch it. If you're very lucky and have mastered the arm flailing� technique you may be able to prevent a spin. Sometimes.

Also Turn10 apparently doesn't know what linear steering is; this is me turning my wheel left in 90� increments and the telemetry response:

(Sorry for the lovely quality, it was a hackjob. Much like this patch.)

This basically demonstrates that the sensitivity around the center is exaggerated (why?) whereas the last 180� or so give you superfine control where you least need it. The weird dynamic linearity before the patch seems to have masked this, but now it's very apparent. Steering and the driving dynamics in general felt quite nice before, except for the "assisted" counter-steering, but now it's all kinda out of whack

I guess I'll mess around with the CSR's linearity reduction now to counter this, but the curves used by Forza and the CSR firmware are quite different, so perfectly matching it seems impossible.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 19:06

GentlemanofLeisure: Aug 27, 2008

Quick question about adding power to cars. Is there any reason to go with one certain engine upgrade over another? I know that some of them like exhaust can reduce the vehicle weight as well as add power, and some add weight like the oil coolers. However, say I need to add a couple points to the PI...is there any reason to upgrade the exhaust to the next level instead of an air filter upgrade? Or the fuel/ignition upgrade?

I've tested a couple cars but my sample size is low and the results are fairly close but not exactly the same...was hoping someone could shed some light on this for me. Thanks.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 19:37

Doctor Butts: May 21, 2002

Hey, also, for the NASA list, the Ford SHO is not the one that is in the game

# ? Dec 2, 2011 19:37

Kenny Rogers: Sep 7, 2007; Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.

GentlemanofLeisure posted:

Quick question about adding power to cars. Is there any reason to go with one certain engine upgrade over another? I know that some of them like exhaust can reduce the vehicle weight as well as add power, and some add weight like the oil coolers. However, say I need to add a couple points to the PI...is there any reason to upgrade the exhaust to the next level instead of an air filter upgrade? Or the fuel/ignition upgrade?

I've tested a couple cars but my sample size is low and the results are fairly close but not exactly the same...was hoping someone could shed some light on this for me. Thanks.

There's a Forza Tuning Spreadsheet out there that has an "Upgrade Priority List" that you can muck about with.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/4859908.aspx

The guy did the work for one of the Mustangs (as it had almost all of the possible upgrades available), and he worked out the power to weight to PI increases for each component, then prioritized them. Pretty neat stuff.

I noticed that I had the wrong SHO about 1am last night. gently caress it, the new one is enormous. If you think you can be competitive with it, go for it. =)

# ? Dec 2, 2011 19:42

Fortuitous Bumble: Jan 5, 2007

GentlemanofLeisure posted:

Quick question about adding power to cars. Is there any reason to go with one certain engine upgrade over another? I know that some of them like exhaust can reduce the vehicle weight as well as add power, and some add weight like the oil coolers. However, say I need to add a couple points to the PI...is there any reason to upgrade the exhaust to the next level instead of an air filter upgrade? Or the fuel/ignition upgrade?

I've tested a couple cars but my sample size is low and the results are fairly close but not exactly the same...was hoping someone could shed some light on this for me. Thanks.

Yeah most of them don't seem very different. I think it might have mattered more were it not for free affinity upgrades that mean you're just as well off buying every minor engine upgrade as a single turbo.

The biggest ones I think are the camshaft upgrades, which raise your maximum engine RPM along with boosting your power (It might not do much for your torque though). I don't know if that gives you a bigger PI penalty. The rest just seem to raise your engine performance across the board unless there's other hidden performance information in the game engine.

Fortuitous Bumble fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 19:47

jadebullet: Mar 25, 2011; MY LIFE FOR YOU!

Any idea on what courses might be chosen for this race. I would like to be familiar with the car and course ahead of time. Doesn't matter if you have like 3 or 4 that we might run. Just knowing what to practice on would be a huge help.

I am assuming it will be a US track seeing as it is a NASA event. Shame we don't have Limerock, VIR, Summit Point or Watkins Glen, cause I know that NASA Northeast races the gently caress out of those courses.

jadebullet fucked around with this message at 20:15 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 20:12

xzzy: Mar 5, 2009

SirViver posted:

This basically demonstrates that the sensitivity around the center is exaggerated (why?) whereas the last 180� or so give you superfine control where you least need it. The weird dynamic linearity before the patch seems to have masked this, but now it's very apparent. Steering and the driving dynamics in general felt quite nice before, except for the "assisted" counter-steering, but now it's all kinda out of whack

That seems so fantastically stupid I can't help but think someone did some arithmetic backwards. But you'd think that would be caught in QA. :iiam:

# ? Dec 2, 2011 20:41

TannhauserGate: Nov 25, 2007; by garbage day

xzzy posted:

That seems so fantastically stupid I can't help but think someone did some arithmetic backwards. But you'd think that would be caught in QA.

It makes sense on the controller? I guess they just aren't giving the wheel its own treatment.

e: Yeah, after seeing the under the hood the results are puzzling.

TannhauserGate fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 21:21

Falken: Jan 26, 2004; Do you feel like a hero yet?

10 Linearity seems to help.

I spun out on turns 2 4 5 and 6 with my steering at 900 deg, set it to 700 and it seems saveable now.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 21:23

Ether Frenzy: Dec 22, 2006; Nap Ghost

TannhauserGate posted:

It makes sense on the controller? I guess they just aren't giving the wheel its own treatment.

The bug didn't apply at all to pad drivers, what it did was re-map the wheel to 270 degrees but only for countersteering maneuvers. They've fixed it so it maps the full rotation you have it set on at all times.

It was nearly impossible to spin your car before with a wheel, so I'm looking forward to trying this.

More details:
http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/underthehood5/

# ? Dec 2, 2011 21:37

SirViver: Oct 22, 2008

Falken posted:

10 Linearity seems to help.

I spun out on turns 2 4 5 and 6 with my steering at 900 deg, set it to 700 and it seems saveable now.

Yes, it does help a bit. I'd like to use more to make it work better, but the linearity curve applied by the CSR isn't very good. If you use any higher values it's completely unusable; instead of a nice smooth reduction spread evenly across the whole steering range it's all focused at the center.

TannhauserGate posted:

It makes sense on the controller? I guess they just aren't giving the wheel its own treatment.

Not really - you'd actually need the opposite - and they are giving the wheel its own treatment (now). The controller is only usable with sim steering at all because the game dynamically reduces the steering sensitivity a lot as you go faster. The actual steering inputs required to get a car around a corner at speed are tiny compared to the car's full steering range. Also, if you start losing control, the sensitivity reduction is removed immediately, so you can counter-steer effectively with the same amount of input that would only make a gentle turn otherwise.

These "assists" (which Turn10 refuses to call them) were applied to the wheel also before the patch, but have now been removed for wheel controllers. But now the apparently generally inverted steering sensitivity can be noticed.

SirViver fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Dec 2, 2011

# ? Dec 2, 2011 21:49

TannhauserGate: Nov 25, 2007; by garbage day

SirViver posted:

Not really - you'd actually need the opposite

That's exactly what I was thinking- it seems precisely backwards. I do understand wheel lock and etc, I'm just confused as hell how Turn10 aren't getting something right that plays to their most sacred audience.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 21:51

Kenny Rogers: Sep 7, 2007; Chapter One:
When I first saw Sparky, he reminded me of my favorite comb. He was missing a lot of teeth.

jadebullet posted:

Any idea on what courses might be chosen for this race. I would like to be familiar with the car and course ahead of time. Doesn't matter if you have like 3 or 4 that we might run. Just knowing what to practice on would be a huge help.

I am assuming it will be a US track seeing as it is a NASA event. Shame we don't have Limerock, VIR, Summit Point or Watkins Glen, cause I know that NASA Northeast races the gently caress out of those courses.

Hmm...gently caress it, I'm having a great time with this. I'm going all in.

I'll maintain a One Stop Shop for everything, for your bookmarking pleasure!

12/07: GoonSpec USTCC @ Camino Viejo Long Reverse
12/14: GoonSpec USTCC @ Sedona Raceway Park Full Circuit
12/21: GoonSpec Showroom Stock Spec Miata @ Fujimi Kaido 30 minute Sprint
12/21: GoonMons 30 minute "Sprint" - Rally di Positano
12/28: GoonSpec USTCC @ Road Atlanta Full Circuit
SEASON 1 ENDS

SEASON 2 BEGINS
01/04: GoonSpec American Iron @ Sedona Raceway Park Full Circuit Reverse
01/11: GoonSpec American Iron @ Laguna Seca
01/18: GoonMons 30 minute "Sprint" @ Camino Viejo Mini Circuit
01/18: GoonSpec Showroom Stock Spec Miata @ Sedona Raceway Park Club Circuit Reverse
01/25: GoonSpec E30 @ Nurburgring GP Circuit Short
02/01: GoonSpec E30 @ Hockenheimring National Circuit
02/08: GoonVintage @ Sebring Short
02/15: GoonVintage @ Maple Valley Full
02/22: GoonSpec Showroom Stock Spec Miata @ Suzuka Full
02/29: Season 2 Finale 1.2 Hours of The Green Hell
SEASON 2 ENDS

# ? Dec 2, 2011 21:56

Falken: Jan 26, 2004; Do you feel like a hero yet?

Ether Frenzy posted:

The bug didn't apply at all to pad drivers, what it did was re-map the wheel to 270 degrees but only for countersteering maneuvers. They've fixed it so it maps the full rotation you have it set on at all times.

It was nearly impossible to spin your car before with a wheel, so I'm looking forward to trying this.

More details:
http://forzamotorsport.net/en-us/underthehood5/

Ether, I've spun out so many times due to not properly respecting the car now due to the 1:1 steer/countersteeer ratio. It feels much more like a PC sim due to it.

I had a terrifying moment coming out of Turn 6 at Laguna Seca. I put myself on the kerb too much and my inside front wheel lifted, and the car began to oversteer. Because it takes more effort to correct the thing now, the entire car started to head face first towards the barriers until I caught it at the last second. From what the replay shows, I couldn't have stuck a cigarette paper between my door and the tirewall.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 22:02

Ether Frenzy: Dec 22, 2006; Nap Ghost

That's good to hear, Falken -- have you had to change any of the other on-board settings besides linearity?

Forza 2 had a really great feeling of being on the knife-edge (yet predictable) at all times with even a 270 degree wheel so I'm hoping this patch steps it back a couple notches to that type of driving tension, this bug made it entirely too easy to correct in 4.

It feels a lot more heroic when you didn't expect to save some off but you amazingly do, and you miss buying a few meters of Armco by the breadth of a Rizla.

# ? Dec 2, 2011 23:11