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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Haha, no. That would require A_H to be a published author. But you see, the prose...
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Dec 8, 2011 21:52
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I was going to let this shill piece go because well, that's just how the game works in media entertainment--fawn over the most popular and sell it to the casual readers. That said I think he's got some nice stealth insults to GRRM going on in here. Lev Grossman 's Time Piece posted:What was George R.R. Martin doing all that time? Was he wandering in the wilderness? Was he sunning on the beaches of Dorne? No: he was girding his loins and rallying the banners, and he has come charging back with one of the strongest books of the series, and the year. Ok, this is just a blatant lie to anyone who actually bothered to read the series. Even if you're of the opinion that ADWD isn't worthless or is one of the best books you've read all year, you cannot argue that it beats out ACoK or ASoS or even AGoT. quote:Dance with Dragons puts us back in the main narrative stream of A Song of Ice and Fire: we go into exile with the black-humored dwarf Tyrion, raise dragons with Daenerys, walk the wall and brood with Jon Snow. Did you watch the first season of HBO? Like those charaters? Hope you don't mind getting spoiled that not only are these 3 fan-favorites alive 3 books from now, but still doing the same stupid poo poo 3 books after you'd expect them to have moved on. quote:The artistry and savagery of Martin's storytelling are at their finest: he has seized hold of epic fantasy and is radically refashioning it for our complex and jaded era, and the results are magnificent. Ok, this is a legitimately clever way to say "Remember how the whole schtick and selling point with the HBO show and the series at large is that it's complex, jaded, and unlike schlock fantasy? Yeah, that's not true anymore 3 books in. Hope you like stone golemns and honeyed locusts bitches."
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Dec 8, 2011 21:57
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Once again, I'm going to point out that all of that praise is coming from a dude who wrote a book that is 1/3 "what if harry potter was like, full of cursing and drinking, man," 1/3 Jersey Shore: Wizard Edition, and 1/3 "let's go to not-Narnia for no apparent reason." The books also have furry sex, as much descriptions of drinking as Gurm has of food, graphic random demon rape, and the biggest Mary Sue main character since Terry Goodkind. No loving wonder Lev Grossman loved ADWD.
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Dec 8, 2011 22:47
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since mid the walrus's quote didn't highlight the true absurdity of the piece:quote:Dance with Dragons puts us back in the main narrative stream of A Song of Ice and Fire "Stream" implies movement. Perhaps "backwater" would be a better term.
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Dec 9, 2011 05:13
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quote:raise dragons with Daenerys More like "Lock the dragons in a pit and worry about which guy she wants to gently caress for another three hundred pages"
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Dec 9, 2011 06:14
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I think you guys have just been mad for a decade that he hasn't written a Storm of Swords again. I've been a longtime follower of the series and have no problem whatsoever with Feast and Dance. Books were good. Look, I know I won't be able to convince you, but the reason why Feast and Dance were slower in pace and lighter in plot is because they were never meant to be books in the first place. These stories were meant to be told via flashback in book four, but they became cumbersome, and needed to be fleshed out into two novels, eventually. Now, I don't think you guys are writers, or you'd understand why writing two novels that you never planned to write in the context of a much larger narrative might cause some pretty massive writer's block. Just be optimistic. He's starting Winds of Winter in a month. There's a show out that might be reinvigorating him creatively, and in the end, he can't do Storm of Swords every single time. When you throw the chess board against the wall, it takes time to set it back up again.
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Dec 9, 2011 06:22
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SteepleJack posted:I don't think you guys are writers, or you'd understand Are you a writer?
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Dec 9, 2011 06:25
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Are you a writer? That's a pretty loaded question. I go to school for writing, though. I suppose you're about to say that my views on the subject are moot because I'm not published, yeah?
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Dec 9, 2011 06:27
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Are you a writer? 
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Dec 9, 2011 06:28
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I get massive writer's block from just thinking about a massive narrative. Gurm should have sacked up and followed my example as a writer and just not written anything if he had no real plan on accomplishing his goals. The time lapse was a pretty lovely idea to begin with and when he finally got to it he realized he had no loving clue what he's doing. That's egregious. But now that he finally pushed out the massive smelly deuce that was AFFC/ADWD he can finally do what anyone would do after a fat poo poo: relax and enjoy doing nothing, then go to a con and get a couple greasy blowies behind the dumpster.
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Dec 9, 2011 06:40
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I will never understand the amount of hate you have for this guy. It seriously is almost psychotic. The dude is just a writer. EDIT: PS he owes you nothing. It's your problem and yours alone if you don't enjoy what he's putting out. Plenty of other people do. You didn't like AFFC/ADWD. Well, a lot more people did like them. Remember that. SteepleJack fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Dec 9, 2011 |
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Dec 9, 2011 06:41
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SteepleJack posted:That's a pretty loaded question. I go to school for writing, though. I suppose you're about to say that my views on the subject are moot because I'm not published, yeah? I had actually typed out a nice bunch of words about why your publication status doesn't matter and so forth, but now that you've dropped the Gaiman card, I just want to see you meltdown.
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Dec 9, 2011 06:50
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SteepleJack posted:That's a pretty loaded question. I go to school for writing, though. I suppose you're about to say that my views on the subject are moot because I'm not published, yeah? No, though a substantial percentage of people who claim to be writers aren't and it has everything to do with the quantity of their actual output, published or no. "I'm in school for it" is also a subset of people who claim to be writers who claim they in the same way you "dress for the job you want, not the job you have". Not saying you are or aren't a "real" writer, I don't care; I'm just explaining the reasons why you're so defensive. That said I don't care that GRRM didn't write ASoS again. I care that aFfC and aDwD was filled with needless padding and sequences that could have been jettisoned to little ill effect. Dany agonizing over Daario and loving about Mereen, Brienne's meandering quest through the Riverlands, Tyrion's bullshit in the circus, Bran's slog up North, Jon's endless "let's let the wildlings in" procession, Sam's boat ride, Victarion's boat ride. Honestly all of those plotlines could have been condensed to a serious degree--some of them down to 1-2 chapters-- to the point of having books 4 and 5 equate to one 1200 page book instead of two 1000 page books. One book of set-up is fine, especially if it's followed by a new one within two years. Call me entitled for having standards as a reader at all, but that's ideal pacing when it comes to a modern epic. Two books of set-up over a decade is poo poo, the difficulties of being a writer be damned. I say that with the best appreciation for just how difficult it is to write an epic as I can muster. Fact is he needed an editor willing to trim the prose down and cut to the core of the narrative skeleton and a publisher willing to kick him in the rear end and finish the series before he gets too old and/or. Given his age and visible health this is a legitimate profit concern, so either those two bodies are lazy/cowed by his reputation or they're making a massive gamble that his fans will buy any crap he makes and that he'll finish the series before anything happens, both of which are ultimately examples of being lovely to the customers--in this case us. SteepleJack posted:I will never understand the amount of hate you have for this guy. It seriously is almost psychotic. The dude is just a writer. You're the one whose sense of empathy and ego is so maladjusted you feel compelled to white knight a fat man who has a recorded history of contempt for the desires of the people who indirectly paid for his livelihood and fame. If this gets under your skin in terms of psychosis may you never venture into E/N or check out some of the Weekend Web/Worst-of the Internet poo poo from the front page. Hell, are you even aware of FYAD for that matter? quote:EDIT: PS he owes you nothing. It's your problem and yours alone if you don't enjoy what he's putting out. Plenty of other people do. You didn't like AFFC/ADWD. Well, a lot more people did like them. Remember that. Ah, those old chestnuts. Yes yes we're the minority and he's just a poor old sensitive guy who does a job at his pace because he's such a special snowflake. I'm sure when you've written your own masterpieces you'll say the same to your detractors. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Dec 9, 2011 |
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Dec 9, 2011 06:50
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I wrote up a longer post, but it can be summed up thus: What's more interesting for ADWD? Dany learning to tame the dragons and truly rule Meereen on her own, the book ending with her astride Drogon and facing west, an army at her back? Or what we got? It's the first and that we got the second shows that GRRM completely hosed up the plotting for the last two books
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Dec 9, 2011 06:55
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If GRRM never wrote anything ever again, I would not care. There are more books I want to read than I have time to read them. The only thing I really have a problem with is the leading on of fans. His struggles are publically known. All the little things he sells (calendars, swords, figurines), the other collections he advertises (wildcards, gardner dozois bullshit), the convention and signing updates, casting puzzles, filming updates, vague allusions to actually writing that get his fans worked up, football effortposts... He keeps himself and his works in the public view, and then complains when he gets flak from fans. Scott Lynch hasn't finished his latest book in years either, but he doesn't lead his fans on and then snap at them when they ask him about it later. Gurm is a cocktease.
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Dec 9, 2011 07:14
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White knight? I'm just a dude who liked a guy's books and doesn't waste time talking about poo poo I don't like constantly. I'm outta here, though. This whole thread doesn't seem constructive.
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Dec 9, 2011 07:28
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SteepleJack posted:I'm outta here, though. This whole thread doesn't seem constructive. One could say its... deconstructive. Made in GRRMs own image.
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Dec 9, 2011 07:31
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We'll miss you as much as you'll miss us. Thanks for stopping by. 
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Dec 9, 2011 07:38
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SteepleJack posted:I will never understand the amount of hate you have for this guy. It seriously is almost psychotic. The dude is just a writer. I don't think you really "get"  We hate "GRRM", who is a monad which exists in pre-establish harmony with "George R. R. Martin", renowned author. GRRM mirrors every one of his public actions, but is not, in fact, George R. R. Martin. GRRM is a rapist, a Hutt-like mound of fat, a pedophile, someone whose entire existence is devoted to spiting us all. To say we hate "GRRM" is to be both perfectly accurate and to belie your accusation that we hate George R. R. Martin. SteepleJack posted:I'm outta here, though. This whole thread doesn't seem constructive. YOU JUST RAPED MY TIME AND EFFORT. Absolute Fucker.
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Dec 9, 2011 07:59
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I have no idea why I had Steepleack on ignore, but I did, and I feel totally vindicated about that now.
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Dec 9, 2011 08:24
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SteepleJack posted:I'm outta here, though. This whole thread doesn't seem constructive. I felt compelled to write some stuff in response to your stuff, but not anymore. What a waste. See you around.
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Dec 9, 2011 08:33
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bigmcgaffney posted:If GRRM never wrote anything ever again, I would not care. There are more books I want to read than I have time to read them. Pretty much. I'm willing to be reasonable. I'm willing to be understanding. Scott Lynch? Dude's had some serious problems. He never said his books would be done soon though, and he was more open than he needed to be when he was ready to go, yeah, nothing yet, can't say when, I've got some major problems. Rothfuss? Pushing it a bit, but, you know, his family's been hit by the cancer train, that sucks like crazy, and aside from the initial crazy claims that his books were all written in advance, which have now been largely set aside, you know, I can deal, I can wait, he's been pretty good about saying where he's at with things. Gurm? Said for like four years straight he'd have his book done next year. For the longest time he refused to even touch the subject of the book in favour of other poo poo. Blog what you want, do what you want, but at least man up on the subject of your most popular work. People aren't reading his loving blog for football. They're victims of Stockholm syndrome, feebly grasping every terrible football blog entry in the hopes that there'll be some sort of tidbit of a hint that he might actually give a drat about the thing that interested them in the first place. And then when he finally produces something, it's... well, it's the middle book in a series and it can't stand in any regard other than that, which makes for a profoundly unsatisfying read because it's all middle, with at most a couple bumps. It isn't fun to read because it can't be. It doesn't begin, it just kind of starts, and it doesn't end, it just kind of stops. Think of the most loving exciting, and by exciting, I mean 'exciting to read', not plot-significant, event you can in ADWD. Go on, think about it. Now take that event and let's move it over to... oh, let's say Clash of Kings. How exciting would that event be in CoK relative to the stuff that's already in that book? There's no beginning. There's no ending. And there's no loving climax. But it really is just a middle book, you whine. That doesn't loving excuse it from needing to obey the basic structure of a book. That's why it has a book to itself and it isn't a couple chapters in a real book. But it was split, you whine. Go on, look at AFFC. Even taking the two as a single entity, you don't get that. It doesn't loving work. ADWD is starting to masturbate because you're bored and have nothing better to do, then stopping because you're still bored. It may have felt okay at some points but when you look back at it afterwards you just feel kind of ashamed you started in the first place. Wow that was a lot of effort for a guy who hosed off after he realized this wasn't an echo chamber of loving the loving book.
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Dec 9, 2011 09:14
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SteepleJack posted:White knight? I'm just a dude who liked a guy's books and doesn't waste time talking about poo poo I don't like constantly. I agree with the general sentiment you're making. I keep coming back here to keep the books fresh in my mind, but I'm constantly staggered by the amount of vitriol directed against the books. Me, I love them, I've loved reading all of them and I am happy to patiently wait for the next ones. I guess that makes me a minority, which I find very weird.
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Dec 9, 2011 09:30
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SteepleJack posted:Look, I know I won't be able to convince you, but the reason why Feast and Dance were slower in pace and lighter in plot is because they were never meant to be books in the first place. These stories were meant to be told via flashback in book four, but they became cumbersome, and needed to be fleshed out into two novels, eventually. We all know this, and it's the reason most of us are cutting him as much slack as we are. It still doesn't excuse a lot of stuff though.
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Dec 9, 2011 11:11
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Saul Goode posted:I agree with the general sentiment you're making. I keep coming back here to keep the books fresh in my mind, but I'm constantly staggered by the amount of vitriol directed against the books. Me, I love them, I've loved reading all of them and I am happy to patiently wait for the next ones. I guess that makes me a minority, which I find very weird. I'm pretty sure most of us are exaggerating our hatred of the book and of GRRM for the sake of humor. Saying "Dance wasn't terrible but it wasn't that great either. I'm slightly disappointed but it's just a book and it's not really that important to me" isn't particularly fun or funny. It's a lot more fun to act like Dance is worse than AIDS.
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Dec 9, 2011 11:40
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SammyWhereAreYou posted:I'm pretty sure most of us are exaggerating our hatred of the book and of GRRM for the sake of humor. Saying "Dance wasn't terrible but it wasn't that great either. I'm slightly disappointed but it's just a book and it's not really that important to me" isn't particularly fun or funny. It's a lot more fun to act like Dance is worse than AIDS. At least with AIDS you can get a bunch if drugs to keep it dormant and in remission. Winter just keeps on coming.
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Dec 9, 2011 11:42
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bigmcgaffney posted:At least with AIDS you can get a bunch if drugs to keep it dormant and in remission. If GRRM's output gets any more dormant he'd be in a coma, and he's on a writing remission until at least next year. Plus he had dick AIDS. Winter Will Never Arrive.
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Dec 9, 2011 13:59
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SammyWhereAreYou posted:I'm pretty sure most of us are exaggerating our hatred of the book and of GRRM for the sake of humor. Saying "Dance wasn't terrible but it wasn't that great either. I'm slightly disappointed but it's just a book and it's not really that important to me" isn't particularly fun or funny. It's a lot more fun to act like Dance is worse than AIDS. Yeah, but I'm not even disappointed in the last two books. I found them enthralling and loved how the narrative became so complex that the characters were dealing with what felt like the real outcomes of their actions rather than just a bunch of fast-moving plot points designed for story effect. I still feel like GRRM knows exactly where he wants the story to go and I'm happy to go along for the ride. I can understand how people are disappointed, but it still surprises me how few fanboys are standing up for the books amidst all the endless diatribes against them and the author. But hey, if it wasn't for this thread I would totally forget everything about the series by the time the next book comes out so don't worry about me and my unpopular opinions by any means.
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Dec 9, 2011 14:02
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At least you're not talking about how sublime and perfect GRRM's prose is, Saul. We don't care if you liked the book, though we will ask why, it's when people stand up and defend it as some amazing work that the vitriol starts to flow. Now come mock this series and its author with us. He is fat, did you know? I understand pizza parlours in Albuquerque just bake and deliver pizzas on a schedule, he is not even required to place an order any longer. What say you, ser?
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Dec 9, 2011 16:15
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SteepleJack posted:EDIT: PS he owes you nothing. I've heard some pretty eloquent defenses of Martin's general slowness, poor communication with fans, etc., but this is not one of them. You, and Neil Gaiman, are being completely disingenous by pretending that a storyteller doesn't owe a payng audience an ending. If Sandman had ended with Issue 69, when thing were all elegaic and it seemed like Morpheus was marching toward death, but Gaiman just went "ehh gently caress it, it's football season", that would've been...you know...immoral. Bad form. The same applies to ASOFAI. If he wants to keep moving the goalposts for how long the series is, I'm cool with that. I even liked the last two books more than most people in this thread. But the "he [kn]owes you nothing[, Jon Snow]" defense is a lie, and you know it.
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Dec 9, 2011 16:49
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Just to join in on the dogpile: My frustration with ADWD is that I was a little disappointed with AFFC but cut it some slack because, by the end of AFFC, I could see some hints of where some of the more distracting plotlines were going. For example, all the turmoil of the Greyjoy succession: I thought it was okay, but too disconnected from the main plot until that great scene when Euron unveils his Orb, I mean Horn, of Dragonkind. "Ahh," I said, "here's where this plotline starts to pull some of the threads together." Same thing with Dorne: it didn't seem too relevant (until Myrcella got wounded), but then we get the great reveal that the Martells are playing a very long game, and again some clear indications of how some plot threads were being pulled together. So now let's hit ADWD: What were the payoffs for these hints? As of the end of ADWD, Victarion still has not reached Mereen (i.e., no payoff) and Quentyn is dead. What's worse, he played no significant role that could not have been played by someone else. You could have excised his entire plotline from AFFC and ADWD and (so far) made absolutely zero difference in plot and primary character growth. So Quentyn's plotline actually has a negative payoff. It's so frustrating. I'll give ADWD this, though: I sure hope GRRM intended the chained dragons to be symbolic of Dany's impotent state of stagnation in Mereen. Because it works pretty well and is a bright spot in an otherwise relatively dim book.
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Dec 9, 2011 18:08
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I think they are pretty good books too I'm mostly just pissed that I have to wait until I'm nearly 40 to see the next one.
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Dec 9, 2011 18:44
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I bought books from that fat bastard and watched his stupid tv show I made his corpulent lifestyle possible he owes me hard.
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Dec 9, 2011 18:55
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Why cookie Rocket posted:I've heard some pretty eloquent defenses of Martin's general slowness, poor communication with fans, etc., but this is not one of them. Yeah I don't think many people claim to be owed poo poo. Picture a world where AFFC was just a bit late coming out, not even any different in content. Just, you know, took a bit longer than it should have instead of the wait-fests we got. Enough of a delay to be a bit annoying, but still leave people reasonable. In this world, picture that 'HEY DANCE WILL BE IN A YEAR GUYS' note at the end of Feast? Picture, if you will, if instead of what we got, that for the year after AFFC came out, a different pile of blog posts. If instead of OMG STOP ASKING ME ABOUT BOOKS we got things like 'gently caress it was hard, but I got done what I wanted to today, so now it's time for some football' or 'geez, I know I said a year but I don't know if I'm going to be able to do this, but I'll do my best' or 'I'm not getting anywhere beating my head against the wall here, I need to put this stuff down for maybe a week, then look at what I'm doing wrong'. And then picture at the end of that first year if he had the massive coronary that we all know is coming. And then after he kind of gets back from his sextuple bypass, he goes, gently caress, that was horrible. I know what you all want to know, though, and I have to say it's going to take a while to recover from this. I can't say when it'll be out, but when I have a better idea I'll let you guys know. This all would be perfectly reasonable and people would on the whole be annoyed at best. It's not any different than what he did post, aside from the fantasy heart attack, but he, as a writer, should know is that how you frame things is how you change how people will react to them. He may well only watch football if he makes wordcount for the day. But he blogs like it and miniatures are his loving life and this actual, you know, book series is just some sort of sideline. neongrey fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Dec 9, 2011 |
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Dec 9, 2011 18:58
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SammyWhereAreYou posted:I'm pretty sure most of us are exaggerating our hatred of the book and of GRRM for the sake of humor. Saying "Dance wasn't terrible but it wasn't that great either. I'm slightly disappointed but it's just a book and it's not really that important to me" isn't particularly fun or funny. It's a lot more fun to act like Dance is worse than AIDS. Yeah, anyone who can't see how this thread operates and would rather act all  looks like a serious wanker. GRRM is an excellent lightning rod for frustration and vitriol because he's frankly earned quite a lot of that vitriol. It's like hating Jersey Shore or Glee only for all their faults those fuckers don't dick their audience around. Saul Goode posted:I can understand how people are disappointed, but it still surprises me how few fanboys are standing up for the books amidst all the endless diatribes against them and the author. Maybe not here, but the HBO show has brought in a HUGE influx of fanboys and the like willing to circlejerk the series like ASoS just came out. And if you understand why people are disappointed, why would you be surprised? If anything it's really a testament to just how much GRRM has hosed with the goodwill of his customers. neongrey posted:He may well only watch football if he makes wordcount for the day. But he blogs like it and miniatures are his loving life and this actual, you know, book series is just some sort of sideline. The clear problem is that he blends his professional blog with his personal blog. If he had some closed-circuit live journal for himself and maybe a few colleagues/friends/family and a "Not-a-Blog" open to the public for aSoIaF announcements, he'd actually have fans protecting his right to have a closet-circuit blog to bitch about football and ask the fans to get off his back. Does that sound entitled as fan to say "Oh he should have done/do twice the blog works if he doesn't want hate"? Maybe, but that's a constructive way to solve vitriol and generally take responsibility for the professional reality of being a writer in the developed world of the 21st Century. Maytag posted:I made his corpulent lifestyle possible he owes me hard. Legitimately want this to be the new thread title. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Dec 9, 2011 |
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Dec 9, 2011 20:47
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smarion2 posted:He wrote ASOIAF. GURM found us Does not compute. The gurm does not write.
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Dec 9, 2011 21:10
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mind the walrus posted:The clear problem is that he blends his professional blog with his personal blog. If he had some closed-circuit live journal for himself and maybe a few colleagues/friends/family and a "Not-a-Blog" open to the public for aSoIaF announcements, he'd actually have fans protecting his right to have a closet-circuit blog to bitch about football and ask the fans to get off his back. Hell, his personal blog needn't even be private. If it's clearly labelled as the land of football and pizza and my tv shows and to piss off, book poo poo will be over here, that's not really unreasonable. I don't really need Sanderson-esque play-by-plays of how many words he's written (though it's very nice to have), and it's not like I think I'm owed a book a year or anything. But some loving respect would be nice. There are plenty of authors out there who are able to healthily manage personal blogging, writing steadily, and doing the con circuit all at once. Augh. Man gently caress this, I'm going to go buy some goddamn yarn to make some loving lace socks with.
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Dec 9, 2011 21:19
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1stGear posted:I wrote up a longer post, but it can be summed up thus: What's more interesting for ADWD? Dany learning to tame the dragons and truly rule Meereen on her own, the book ending with her astride Drogon and facing west, an army at her back? Or what we got? The thing that really kills me is that no one would've shat on the books if the dragons grew faster or just instinctively followed Dany's orders, but no instead we've got some built in time burners that became ridiculous in ADWD.
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Dec 9, 2011 21:29
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neongrey posted:Man gently caress this, I'm going to go buy some goddamn yarn to make some loving lace socks with. Please knit me an awesome House Greyjoy kraken touque. vvv Absolute fucker. Blade_of_tyshalle fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Dec 9, 2011 |
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Dec 9, 2011 21:51
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Please knit me an awesome House Greyjoy kraken touque. Do You Not Sew?
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Dec 9, 2011 22:02
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