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interrodactyl posted:It's pretty similar to Guilty Gear. Er... I meant the actual button config in the game. I know it's supposed to be A B C | D E, but I can't figure out the configuration menu.
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Dec 18, 2011 21:23
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I just found out how the infinite prevention system in Skullgirls works last night and that's the most elegant and brilliant thing basically ever and every combo based fighting game needs use this system, but there isn't anyway in hell that any Japanese company will pay attention to what some indy American developer has done in a fighting game even if it blows what they've been doing for ten years totally out of the water.
NecroMonster fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Dec 18, 2011 |
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Dec 18, 2011 21:24
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Brett824 posted:Er... I meant the actual button config in the game. I know it's supposed to be A B C | D E, but I can't figure out the configuration menu. is this what you need?  that's when the stick is set to LS
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Dec 18, 2011 21:30
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Brett824 posted:Anyone wanna take a screenshot of the default control setup for a 360 TE? I can't make heads or tails of this button config. If you're talking about the buttons in the lower left, they're "Start", "Confirm" and "Cancel". Yes, there are actually separate buttons for confirming/cancelling options for some reason  Edit: and yea, the first four are the directions, up down left right.
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Dec 18, 2011 21:32
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NecroMonster posted:I just found out how the infinite prevention system in Skullgirls works last night and that's the most elegant and brilliant thing basically ever and every combo based fighting game needs use this system, but there isn't anyway in hell that any Japanese company will pay attention to what some indy American developer has done in a fighting game even if it blows what they've been doing for ten years totally out of the water. Tell us! I love smart mechanics.
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Dec 18, 2011 21:33
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flatluigi posted:Tell us! I love smart mechanics. It's super simple, Mike Z explained it this way. When you start a chain of attacks with an attack, the game checks to see if you've already started a chain of attacks in that combo with that attack, if you have, the infinite protection kicks in and the combo becomes breakable. This would apparently only take up around five lines of code by itself, but Mike added a bunch of exceptions to it so characters do combos players expect them to be able to do. This system cannot be fooled or solved, doesn't (technically) require any designer input or add additional layers of variables with effects on game balance, and it's very obvious when the player is going to run into or trip the system.
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Dec 18, 2011 21:40
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that's close, but not quite right. You can't start a section of a combo with a move you've already used at all in that combo. Nothing is remembered from the first ground section of your combo, and you can't trigger an infinite during your first jump.
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Dec 18, 2011 21:46
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Jmcrofts posted:that's close, but not quite right. You can't start a section of a combo with a move you've already used at all in that combo. Nothing is remembered from the first ground section of your combo, and you can't trigger an infinite during your first jump. That reminds me of Melty Blood combo system, sort of. EDIT: also, Melty demo needs to allow me to one-button dash.
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Dec 18, 2011 21:51
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SF4 ruined my execution. Why is Melty so hard?
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Dec 18, 2011 22:02
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I don't know much about fighting game mechanics. What makes the loop detection system better than the gravity or hit deterioration systems?
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Dec 18, 2011 22:02
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interrodactyl posted:SF4 ruined my execution. Why is Melty so hard? It's not that hard, you just need to get used to the timing, really.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:05
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Roguelike posted:I don't know much about fighting game mechanics. What makes the loop detection system better than the gravity or hit deterioration systems? Basically makes anything that you would logically expect to work work, unless it could be a loop. Also is there damage scaling in combos in SG?
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Dec 18, 2011 22:10
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PalmTreeFun posted:Basically makes anything that you would logically expect to work work, unless it could be a loop. Also is there damage scaling in combos in SG? Yes there is damage scaling. You could kill someone with like a 8 hit combo without damage scaling.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:12
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sleeps-chan posted:is this what you need? Thanks. The separate confirm/cancel buttons confused the hell out of me.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:16
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Jmcrofts posted:that's close, but not quite right. You can't start a section of a combo with a move you've already used at all in that combo. Nothing is remembered from the first ground section of your combo, and you can't trigger an infinite during your first jump. That's the exceptions part. I wasn't clear on what those exceptions are, but I knew they existed.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:22
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NecroMonster posted:That's the exceptions part. I wasn't clear on what those exceptions are, but I knew they existed. Yeah plus you can't start a section with ANY move that you've used before, not just any move that you've started a section with before.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:24
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Jmcrofts posted:Yeah plus you can't start a section with ANY move that you've used before, not just any move that you've started a section with before. Yeah, I realized that after I posted. I'm tired and just going to let my mistake stand, I'm totally ok with looking like an idiot.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:29
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I have some sincere questions about Skullgirls: Are there guard breaks? Roll cancels? Will there be trials? Also, why only 8 characters when the player select screen has like 20 slots? Thanks!
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Dec 18, 2011 22:40
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:Also, why only 8 characters when the player select screen has like 20 slots? There's going to be lots of post-release DLC characters. I think they're planning to release them free or at least very cheaply.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:41
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Are the bursts from infinite prevention bait-able and/or punishable?
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Dec 18, 2011 22:41
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:Also, why only 8 characters when the player select screen has like 20 slots? It takes a lot of time to animate sprites, I'm sure they intended like 20 characters but could only fit 8 into the release. It's guaranteed to have more added as DLC, they had a bunch of unused character artwork.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:41
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Roguelike posted:I don't know much about fighting game mechanics. What makes the loop detection system better than the gravity or hit deterioration systems? Hitstun decay hasn't stopped infinites from happening with 100% certainty in MvC3 (I think there's been at least somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 or 7 infinites found over the course of MvC3's lifespan), and it also stops things from working that aren't infinites. You also aren't 100% sure WHY some things don't work. Loop detection just stops loops, period, and doesn't stop things that aren't loops. Also, it's easy to tell why you got stopped, the reason being "stop trying to loop." Intuitive, and cuts out the problem without any unintentional casualties in combo creation.
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Dec 18, 2011 22:42
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:I have some sincere questions about Skullgirls: No guard breaks, no roll cancels (no rolls). There are trials, some of them are combos, others are stuff like blocking mixups, learning movement options, and getting in on zoning. The character select has a lot of slots because the plan is to support the game with DLC characters for a long time after release. E: NecroMonster posted:Are the bursts from infinite prevention bait-able and/or punishable? Potentially. It remains to be seen really. If you block the burst (say if you land after a jump attack that triggers the infinite), both players are left at +0 frames. It's possible to make the burst whiff, but pretty tough/impossible to punish it. Plus there is a pretty large window when you can actually press the button to burst the infinite, so a lot of setups I tried that SEEMED like they should punish bursts didn't actually do so if the other guy waited a while before pressing the button. Jmcrofts fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Dec 18, 2011 |
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Dec 18, 2011 22:43
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This might have been answered somewhere already but is there a minimum damage scaling % in SG? If not, what's the average character health number?
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Dec 18, 2011 22:46
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Jmcrofts posted:No guard breaks, no roll cancels (no rolls). Cool. I know I've been talking poo poo, and the graphics def don't appeal to me, but I'm genuinely intrigued if this game is as close to Marvel 2 as Fanatiq claims. Hopefully you guys'll release a demo. EDIT: Real quick JM, are the trial combos practical?
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Dec 18, 2011 22:47
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Brett824 posted:This might have been answered somewhere already but is there a minimum damage scaling % in SG? If not, what's the average character health number? There is a minimum damage scaling percent, and it's the same across all characters. I just don't know what it is offhand  Something else to note about damage scaling in the game is that hits that do over a certain number unscaled (basically any hard normal or high-damage single hit) have a higher minimum damage. This is how it worked in X-Men vs Street Fighter, and it basically means that a long way into a combo, HPs and HKs will still do good damage while LPs and LKs won't do much at all. You'll probably notice it in stuff like Filia's DP super, where the last hit does a good chunk of damage even at the end of a really long combo. quote:EDIT: Real quick JM, are the trial combos practical? Yeah, if you're good at fighting games they're very useable in a real match. I managed to do all the trials on my first or second try, because they were really similar to combos I had already worked out myself in training mode. I had my roommate try them, who has little to no fighting game experience, and the hardest one took him about 20 minutes. The trials are more intended to teach new players how to use the combo system, rather than a sort of test of skill like they seem to be in marvel 3. Also there will be a demo, since microsoft requires all XBLA titles have one. It won't be out until the game is, though. Jmcrofts fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Dec 18, 2011 |
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Dec 18, 2011 22:50
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Jmcrofts posted:Also there will be a demo, since microsoft requires all XBLA titles have one. It won't be out until the game is, though. PSN too I hope? (Sorry, don't know whether you're saying there's going to be a demo for all target platforms b/c MS requires a demo on XBLA or if the demo's just coming to the 360. Thanks for answering my questions.)
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Dec 18, 2011 22:59
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JesusLovesRonwell posted:PSN too I hope? (Sorry, don't know whether you're saying there's going to be a demo for all target platforms b/c MS requires a demo on XBLA or if the demo's just coming to the 360. Thanks for answering my questions.) Yeah demo for both platforms. If there has to be one for XBLA may as well release it on both!
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Dec 18, 2011 23:00
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I really wish the bursts could be baited and punished, as that would add another layer of mind games to offense and defense, but I understand why they might not be. Anyway, the whole Hit Stun Scaling vs Loop Prevention thing. Most fighting games attempt to deny infinites from existing by effecting one of the variables that makes them work in the first place, namely histun. Skullgirls seeks to deny infinites by instead going after what infinites actually ARE, namely loops of attacks. It's no surprise at all why Mike Zs system seems so much more intelligent and elegant than hit stun scaling, because it is, one system is a kludge against infinites and the other is simple outright prevention.
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Dec 18, 2011 23:03
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How does air-teching work in SG? Is it like GG/BB/MB where you have to hit a button to tech out (therefore allowing for black-beat/blue-beat/invalid combos) or is it like MvC3 where you'll tech out at the first possible moment and you can only control what direction you go? Is there a quick get-up system, or a directional get-up like in BB, or neither?
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Dec 18, 2011 23:32
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Question Mark Mound posted:How does air-teching work in SG? Is it like GG/BB/MB where you have to hit a button to tech out (therefore allowing for black-beat/blue-beat/invalid combos) or is it like MvC3 where you'll tech out at the first possible moment and you can only control what direction you go? It's like MvC2: You don't push a button to air tech, nor can you go in a direction. So it has MvC2 style resets. You can ground tech front or back, but only if you're in a hard knockdown. If you're in non-knockdown hitstun when you hit the ground, you stand up on your feet. There are OTG combos that cannot be teched out of, and some that can, it depends on the move you use, how close you are to the ground, etc.
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Dec 18, 2011 23:35
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NecroMonster posted:I really wish the bursts could be baited and punished, as that would add another layer of mind games to offense and defense, but I understand why they might not be.
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Dec 19, 2011 01:15
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Dr Slouch posted:Hitstun decay hasn't stopped infinites from happening with 100% certainty in MvC3 (I think there's been at least somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 or 7 infinites found over the course of MvC3's lifespan), and it also stops things from working that aren't infinites. You also aren't 100% sure WHY some things don't work. Loop detection just stops loops, period, and doesn't stop things that aren't loops. The reason Hitstun decay doesn't work to stop infinites in MvC3 is because it's really badly implemented in MvC3. There's a minimum hitstun scaling and there's a lot of poo poo that completely ignores it. And MvC3's combo system is just really badly designed to begin with and that doesn't help at all. NecroMonster posted:It's no surprise at all why Mike Zs system seems so much more intelligent and elegant than hit stun scaling, because it is, one system is a kludge against infinites and the other is simple outright prevention. The Skullgirls system really isn't any more elegant than hitstun scaling. Hitstun scaling makes perfect sense and is really easy to follow. And frankly, loops if done right are really awesome, and removing any possibility for them entirely is pretty lame. SG is its own thing though so I'm not gonna knock it for trying new poo poo, but saying stuff like "It's just better, every fighting game should use this" is kinda dumb.
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Dec 19, 2011 01:20
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:The Skullgirls system really isn't any more elegant than hitstun scaling. Hitstun scaling makes perfect sense and is really easy to follow. And frankly, loops if done right are really awesome, and removing any possibility for them entirely is pretty lame. Elegance is arguable, but the big kickers of Skullgirls are that (A) the combo system should be simple enough that a combo can be written out on paper and the player would know the exact reasons why it would and wouldn't work if he tried them in game and (B) long combos are still good except when they get repetitive, boring, or infinite. Hitstun decay rules are nebulous at best and have lots of exceptions; even if you play Guilty Gear, a combo can last longer or shorter depending on which normal with which you started the combo. If I thought up a combo while at work, I wouldn't know if it would work or not because the system isn't consistent in a humanly measurable way: combos just work until they don't at one point or another. Plus, and this is huge, if you drop a combo that you're trying out, it's hard to tell if the combo was dropped due to execution error or due to HSD. A lot of people would disagree with you on loops-- they're generally low risk, high reward. While the execution barrier can be extremely high for some, the creative potential of them is extremely low because it's a shorter combo that is simply repeated. By forcing players to use longer strings of unique moves, you force players to be more creative with how they deal damage, and that is considered to be a good thing in the eyes of the designers.
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Dec 19, 2011 01:35
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Broken Loose posted:Hitstun decay rules are nebulous at best and have lots of exceptions; even if you play Guilty Gear, a combo can last longer or shorter depending on which normal with which you started the combo. If I thought up a combo while at work, I wouldn't know if it would work or not because the system isn't consistent in a humanly measurable way: combos just work until they don't at one point or another. Having complex rules for how long combos can last, based on stuff like what your first hit was or CH state or whatever, is a GOOD thing. It makes the combo system more varied and interesting. Getting the exact same combo followup regardless of if you start a combo with a 2A or with a c.C is LESS interesting than the alternative. quote:Plus, and this is huge, if you drop a combo that you're trying out, it's hard to tell if the combo was dropped due to execution error or due to HSD. I have no idea why you think this is unique to a hitstun scaling system. This is going to happen in literally any game with difficulty in your combos. All Hitstun scaling is going to do is make the combo system more complicated, but again how is this a bad thing in any way? quote:A lot of people would disagree with you on loops-- they're generally low risk, high reward. If they're badly done loops then yeah. If they're well designed loops they may be extremely high execution, look awesome, and be really fun to do. My point is that removing any possibility for loops like that is just cutting out one potential type of combo, and that again, potentially makes the combo system less varied and interesting.
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Dec 19, 2011 01:52
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A loop is cool if the basic part of the loop looks awesome or is done with a super visceral move. There's nothing wrong with loops.
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Dec 19, 2011 01:57
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:I have no idea why you think this is unique to a hitstun scaling system. This is going to happen in literally any game with difficulty in your combos. All Hitstun scaling is going to do is make the combo system more complicated, but again how is this a bad thing in any way? It makes the game more complexe, and thus harder to balance, without having any real positive effect on a characters uniqueness, it requires more time and work out of the developer, and thus increases the cost to develop a game, and it isn't transparent to the players. It's also solvabe in the sense that it means given any situation there is always going to be a 100% best combo to do. And, btw, on the whole loops are cool thing; Yes, loops are cool, but exceptions can be written into this system to provide characters with the ability to loop specific numbers of attacks without creating infinites, without any of the downsides that using a hitstun scaling system would bring.
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Dec 19, 2011 02:15
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NecroMonster posted:It makes the game more complexe, and thus harder to balance, without having any real positive effect on a characters uniqueness, it requires more time and work out of the developer, and thus increases the cost to develop a game, and it isn't transparent to the players. It's also solvabe in the sense that it means given any situation there is always going to be a 100% best combo to do. How is a hitstun scaling more complex and harder to balance than an infinite detection system? Particularly if you went out of your way to write specific exceptions to your system to allow loops to happen? Also, why do you think that an infinite detection system is not going to have a definite way to deal as much damage as you can from a given situation? And why is this necessarily a bad thing? Not hating on SG, by the way. Will be cool seeing how this new system is going to pan out, and the game's looking great. It's just weird seeing people making statement about how great it's going to be before we had the chance to explore it. Snicker-Snack fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Dec 19, 2011 |
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Dec 19, 2011 02:35
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NecroMonster posted:It makes the game more complexe, and thus harder to balance, without having any real positive effect on a characters uniqueness It has the positive effect of making character's combos more interesting and situational, and also requiring more knowledge and skill from the player doing the combo. NecroMonster posted:It's also solvabe in the sense that it means given any situation there is always going to be a 100% best combo to do. Yeah? So what? Skullgirl's combo system is solvable. I don't know how you could possibly think it wouldn't be. NecroMonster posted:And, btw, on the whole loops are cool thing; Yes, loops are cool, but exceptions can be written into this system to provide characters with the ability to loop specific numbers of attacks without creating infinites, without any of the downsides that using a hitstun scaling system would bring. Which is fine, but it means you're stuck with only having the loops that the developers intended. Less room for player discovery. It also makes the system less intuitive, which is sort of against the point of the SG system? Gwyrgyn Blood fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Dec 19, 2011 |
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Dec 19, 2011 03:22
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Yo Crofts tell homeboys to release skullgirls ASAP because it looks soooo good.
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Dec 19, 2011 03:27
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