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Endorph posted:there are probably a few people who think Sanji is perfectly justified in both being horrified by and wanting to beat the poo poo out of them. No probably about it. I have seen huge numbers of these people. It's depressing. I'm not about to say Oda is a feminist, but there's a very important reason why no, the peeping tom joke is still not relevant to this conversation at all: with the okama, the narrative itself takes Sanji's side. They actually did aggressively pursue him and try to convert him against his will, and dialogue in the Impel Down scene (when another man is forcibly changed against his will) implies that they have a reputation for this. Sanji's reaction to all this "trauma" is treated as comedic and over-the-top but ultimately justified and something we're supposed to sympathize with (aside from brief moments like Usopp scolding him for not thanking the blood donors). Sanji wanting to spy on women is gross and casually laughed off by the narrative (and it doesn't magically become funny when Oda recycles the joke with another character in the manga), but it's not the same dynamic at all. The narrative treats it like no big deal, but it doesn't try to justify it with "women are asking for it with the way they act" or something either.
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Jan 9, 2012 07:21
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Endorph posted:and there are probably a few people who think Sanji is perfectly justified in both being horrified by and wanting to beat the poo poo out of them.
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Jan 9, 2012 07:25
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Endorph posted:I feel like this is a trick question. What do you mean by "universally positive?" It isn't meant to be at least. Oda has already potrayed crossdressers and transgender folks quite positively in Impel Down. They were good people caught in a bad situation and fought like hell when the time came. They were sympathetic and likable, even if they dressed like characters out of the Rocky Horror Show. Some of them didn't ask to be transgender, but they all seemed quite happy with it regardless of whether they asked or not and they were potrayed as positively as any other random side character Oda's ever made. I'm just wondering if you feel that no-one should be allowed use them as the butt of any kind of joke until they've become so commonplace in society that no-one will think anything of them being laughed at? Fair enough, if you do feel that way, I'll disagree with you and find it to be a very defensive (if not outright silly) stance to take - but I'm not trying to lead you in to any other kind of trap. I just don't think it's a realistically feasible one. Everyone should be open to being made in to a joke - that's equality after all. tsob fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jan 9, 2012 |
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Jan 9, 2012 07:29
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tsob posted:I'm just wondering if you feel that no-one should be allowed use them as the butt of any kind of joke until they've become so commonplace in society that no-one will think anything of them being laughed at? When real living people are no longer murdered because people believe that the content of those specific jokes reflects reality, we'll talk.
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Jan 9, 2012 07:34
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I'm fine with jokes and such. All I'm asking is that the jokes not be... iunno, so demonizing. The fact that Impel Down was kinda decent doesn't change the fact that that Oda literally introduced an island of crossdressers and transgenders that want to sexually assault men. All men. Run from the people that are different from you. It is implied that they're literally going to rape you. There's a difference between that and "being the butt of jokes", y'know? It's not that I think trans issues are the most serious poo poo ever and should never even be in the same room as comedy, it's just that you can make jokes about them without portraying them as the enemy of all decent people, like our man, the guy we've watched grow and develop and change and, despite his flaws, be a generally good guy, Sanji.
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Jan 9, 2012 07:36
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mushroom_spore posted:When real living people are no longer murdered because people believe that the content of those specific jokes reflects reality, we'll talk. That counts out any kind of racial or religious jokes though. Probably for the duration of human society. Sadly. mushroom_spore posted:I'm not about to say Oda is a feminist, but there's a very important reason why no, the peeping tom joke is still not relevant to this conversation at all: with the okama, the narrative itself takes Sanji's side. They actually did aggressively pursue him and try to convert him against his will, and dialogue in the Impel Down scene (when another man is forcibly changed against his will) implies that they have a reputation for this. Sanji's reaction to all this "trauma" is treated as comedic and over-the-top but ultimately justified and something we're supposed to sympathize with (aside from brief moments like Usopp scolding him for not thanking the blood donors). Endorph posted:I'm fine with jokes and such. All I'm asking is that the jokes not be... iunno, so demonizing. The fact that Impel Down was kinda decent doesn't change the fact that that Oda literally introduced an island of crossdressers and transgenders that want to sexually assault men. All men. Run from the people that are different from you. It is implied that they're literally going to rape you. I avoided answering Mushroom_Spore for a few minutes on this one, since basically, I have no response to that - beyond the gut feeling that Oda doesn't have any hate towards them. And yes I know you think that doesn't matter, but I think it does. I guess I just can't agree with it since it all just looks to me to be set up specifically so that Sanji can throw wild expressions and be funny - a joke that the anime is possibly taking past the line (again, not see a good chunk of the anime only stuff). On top of that, I fully expect those guys (or some of their friends) to reappear later on down the line and kick some rear end. It's Oda, that's his thing. I should probably try and catch the rest of the episodes that show this stuff repeatedly to see if I really do think it's still unoffensive or not.
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Jan 9, 2012 07:51
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tsob posted:That counts out any kind of racial or religious jokes though. Probably for the duration of human society. Sadly. I feel no great sense of loss over not being able to make -ist jokes, personally. (The joke there is that you absolutely ARE able to make all the -ist jokes you want, because after all they're only minorities and much of society will ultimately side with you. It's just a joke, you guys, he didn't ~mean~ any harm when he created a reality in which gay/trans people are a legitimate threat to straight men, lightheartedly reinforcing existing negative stereotypes that hurt actual people every day! Just good clean fun here!) quote:I have no response to that - beyond the gut feeling that Oda doesn't have any hate towards them. You have a gut feeling. We have the actual text. Whether he actively and consciously hates them is irrelevant, because again, intent is not magical. If I am not paying attention while I stomp down the street and end up stomping down on your foot, breaking three of your toes, I don't get a free pass to keep stomping on you over and over again because I didn't ~mean~ to hurt you.
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Jan 9, 2012 08:10
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Are you basing Oda's opinions off of the manga or the anime? Because this is very important.
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Jan 9, 2012 08:12
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Himuro posted:Are you basing Oda's opinions off of the manga or the anime? Because this is very important. I think the manga had some lovely moments that the anime made worse and added more of. So both...ish. I know he didn't write the anime filler, but he didn't help matters either.
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Jan 9, 2012 08:16
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mushroom_spore posted:I feel no great sense of loss over not being able to make -ist jokes, personally. I do, because those are some of the best material. Although admittedly, only really when it's pointing out how those -isms are bad in some way. There are still a lot of good jokes or comedic moments made by stand ups and media regarding the differences in various socities, regiligions and ethnicities and blanket banning anything regarding race, religion or difference basically would end up with pretty dull tv. It's the differences that make things interesting after all. mushroom_spore posted:You have a gut feeling. We have the actual text. By the same token though, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to walk down the street without staring down at the ground obsessively so as to make sure you never hurt anyone. Also, personally, so long as you apologized I wouldn't actually dislike you for it. Or think that you have a hate for toes. This metaphor is starting to go stale pretty quickly though. More to the point though I suppose would be that I would expect an apology and probably some kind of compensation to pay bills. I think that Oda using them rather postively for a stretch (how long did they appear for?) in Impel Down fits the bill in this over done metaphor as either of those, given their brevity in the manga's Fishman Island scenes. I'm just not sure it fits for the anime writers and will have to look in to it at some point. I didn't go in to this argument thinking about the anime at all though, and got caught up in talking about something I'm not fully versed in for a lot longer than I really should have any right to do so.
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Jan 9, 2012 08:24
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tsob posted:I do, because those are some of the best material. Although admittedly, only really when it's pointing out how those -isms are bad in some way. Jokes that point out that -isms are bad are by definition not racist jokes. More to the point, that's irrelevant, because the "joke" here in no way points out that the -ism in question is bad. In fact, One Piece has constructed an elaborate fantasy scenario in which a caricature of the -ism is true and accurate instead. That's the exact opposite of what you're defending. tsob posted:It's the differences that make things interesting after all. Then why are you defending humor that is ANTI-difference? tsob posted:By the same token though, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to walk down the street without staring down at the ground obsessively so as to make sure you never hurt anyone. There is a space between the two extremes, amazingly, where you try to pay a reasonable amount of attention to what you're doing, and if you hurt someone don't respond with "I didn't mean to step on your foot so it doesn't count, you are wrong for pointing out that I stepped on your foot. Foot-steppers are bad people who have a cartoonish, all-encompassing hate of toes, and I'm a good person, so lalalalala" when all they want is for you to get off their drat foot already. Because you are standing on it, whether you intended to or not.  Yes the metaphor is goofy when you think about it too much, but it's the best illustration I've heard yet. I get it, we all like One Piece or we wouldn't be here. We like Oda or we wouldn't be here. But that doesn't mean we have to pretend he and his work both poo poo gold and can do no wrong. tsob posted:More to the point though I suppose would be that I would expect an apology and probably some kind of compensation to pay bills. I think that Oda using them rather postively for a stretch (how long did they appear for?) in Impel Down fits the bill in this over done metaphor Doing it right for a while doesn't build up some kind of credit for time in which you can do it horribly wrong instead and it's okay. This conversation never goes anywhere and I'm tired enough as it is, though, so I think I'm done here. mushroom_spore fucked around with this message at 08:50 on Jan 9, 2012 |
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Jan 9, 2012 08:47
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What we have to realize here is that you don't have to hate a group or even consciously realize that you present a bigoted point of view in order to be part of the problem. We all realize that Oda probably didn't sit down one day and go 'welp, I sure hate me them queers', rather he made up a joke he thought was funny, because wouldn't it be hilarious if the ladies' man was stuck on an island with a bunch of creepy dragqueens? The problem here is that real transpeople, as opposed to the fiction that Oda has created, don't act like that. However, most people haven't actually met any transpeople and don't realize this, therefore the mainstream media portrayal of transpeople is all they have to relate to (and yes, One Piece is part of mainstream Japanese media), and thus a stereotype is born. I think it's uncontroversial to say that a lot of people will take stereotypes for granted, and will assume them to be true when dealing with real life transpeople. Therefore, regardless of intent, this portrayal will hurt one of the most vulnerable and misunderstood minorities in the world. This is a Bad Thing, and should be pointed out as such. It shows that while One Piece is overall a great work, it still has flaws that need to be addressed.
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Jan 9, 2012 12:40
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There's also the point that all the trans people in One Piece are meant to be horrifying. All of them. Even though Ivankov is a cool person, everything about his design is supposed to be disturbing. I don't really expect Oda to be great with any gender that's not male (he did afteral draw a scene in which Nami is essentially raped in a shower), but they doesn't make it any better.
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Jan 9, 2012 16:14
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Momomo posted:There's also the point that all the trans people in One Piece are meant to be horrifying. All of them. Even though Ivankov is a cool person, everything about his design is supposed to be disturbing. I don't really expect Oda to be great with any gender that's not male (he did afteral draw a scene in which Nami is essentially raped in a shower), but they doesn't make it any better. Well, Bon Clay post-Alabasta at least.
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Jan 9, 2012 16:28
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Not sure if it's relevant to the current debate, but Ivankov is based off a real-life okama that Oda knew. That person was even Ivankov's initial VA before he had to stop due to going to prison for showing off his tattoos on the internet.
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Jan 9, 2012 21:32
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At the end of the day, I'd just like to be able to watch One Piece in public. "One Piece Anime Thread 4: New World! Anyone Remember Where We Parked?" You really need to watch the anime to see how painful it is to watch. It's not funny; it's overdone; and it's just annoying to sit through. I understand the joke is watching Sanji squirm. I highly doubt Oda means any offense. But goddamn are the scenes not funny and there is little doubt in my mind that they are enforcing negative stereotypes. Japan is not a very diverse nation and the LGBTQQA et al. group has a lot of discrimination already stacked against it. Furthermore, though it's super widely popular all across Japan, this is a show aimed at youth. I don't expect OP to be some kind of super anime which explores the human experience and what it means to be diverse or whatever, but it's just plain offensive and unfunny.
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Jan 10, 2012 00:16
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Disregarding the (probably) unintentional offensiveness of the scenes - holy gently caress are they not funny anymore? They might've been considered borderline funny when a few seconds are put in between other stuff as a comic relief but not reusing basically the same scene over and over...  Cerebral Bore posted:The problem here is that real transpeople, as opposed to the fiction that Oda has created, don't act like that. However, most people haven't actually met any transpeople and don't realize this, (...) So what you're saying is that those people are goddam morons? 
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Jan 10, 2012 00:53
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Cipher Pol 9 posted:Well, all of them except for Bon Clay and Inazuma. Bon Clay is not as bad as some of the other okama, but he's still pretty bad. Also how the hell does someone go to jail for showing off tattoos on the internet? Is that a law in Japan? I know tattoos are associated with the yakuza there but are tattoos themselves considered grounds for arrest? Anyways, if this debate is going to continue then everyone needs to read Derailing For Dummies, because some of the arguments that have shown up have been like word for word stuff from that. Not all of them are relevant of course, and some of the newer entries just sort of devolve into sarcastic rants that reflect badly on the legitimacy of the rest of the website, but it's still pretty important to learn a lot of the broken arguments that show up around this sort of discussion. Also, lordfrikk, a lot of people really are goddamn morons. One time I called out a guy on a homophobic statement and his first defense was "one time some gay guy I know told me I was in a sex dream of his." Bigots are really dumb but if it wasn't for a lot of stuff they see in the media that reinforces their bigotry then they'd at least just be idiots rather than bigoted idiots.
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Jan 10, 2012 03:22
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QueerPope posted:Bon Clay is not as bad as some of the other okama, but he's still pretty bad. I think the tattoo was on his rear end in a top hat or something so he got busted for obscenity.
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Jan 10, 2012 03:41
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Anyone else as unimpressed with Neptune's voice as I am? I think this is the first case of honest disappointment I've had with the voice work.
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Jan 10, 2012 04:46
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Liar posted:Anyone else as unimpressed with Neptune's voice as I am? I think this is the first case of honest disappointment I've had with the voice work. I honestly thought that he was voiced by Norio Wakamoto when he first spoke. Then I realized he wasn't, so yeah I'm there with ya 
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Jan 10, 2012 06:00
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bondster posted:I honestly thought that he was voiced by Norio Wakamoto when he first spoke. I never thought of that, but holy poo poo what a wasted opportunity. lordfrikk posted:So what you're saying is that those people are goddam morons? If it only were morons then things would be much easier. I mean, if all the exposure you've ever had towards a particular group is through mainstream media portrayal, it's easy for even reasonably intelligent people to unconsciously assume that the media portrayal must have some truth to it. This is why it's so important to point out when media portrayals of minorities are lovely. Inazuma is a really, really progressive and great character though, so I have to give Oda that. A calm, collected and competent person who doesn't dress up like a Rocky Horror Picture reject and just happens to like switching from male to female and back is a pretty great aversion of stereotypes. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jan 10, 2012 |
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Jan 10, 2012 11:03
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Cerebral Bore posted:A calm, collected and competent person who doesn't dress up like a Rocky Horror Picture reject I just re-watched RHPS a few weeks ago and there was a character in the background that looked EXACTLY like Inazuma. I wish I could find a screencap... (I understand what you're saying, by the way, and agree with you. Inazuma rules)
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Jan 11, 2012 02:27
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Appachai posted:An interesting aside: Manmi looks like he gonna gently caress your poo poo up.
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Jan 11, 2012 13:45
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Spidder posted:Manmi looks like he gonna gently caress your poo poo up. Nico Robert is the really scary one.
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Jan 11, 2012 15:15
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Appachai posted:An interesting aside: In case any of you are curious like I was, I tried to translate them. I can't guarantee 100% accurate translation though. It's pretty hard to read, but the ones I can read: Luffy says: "Eat salad" "The one that will become the pirate king is me!!" Zoro says: "Three sword-style?" (I think) "Impossible, my teeth would break completely" Nami's is too hard to read (does someone have a better scan?) Ussopu's is also too hard to read Sanjis says: "Sweets are my specialty (you know)" Chopper says: (I think) "Doctor! Ah! It's me!" Robin's I can't figure out at all and it's hard to read Franky says: "Isn't this week's me suuuuuuperrrrrr?" And Brook is just confused. I'd like to figure out what the other's are saying... Incidentally, I'm not sure hormones would work on Brook.  ?
Shadow0 fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Jan 11, 2012 |
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Jan 11, 2012 21:07
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Shadow0 posted:In case any of you are curious like I was, I tried to translate them. I can't guarantee 100% accurate translation though. Can do. 
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Jan 11, 2012 21:11
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Nami: I'm asking who this ship's navigator is! Usopp: It seems like I'll die if I enter that island. Robin: You did something terrible... The other translations are pretty accurate.
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Jan 11, 2012 21:22
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Some Numbers posted:Nami: I'm asking who this ship's navigator is! Well, that's much better than my version of Nami and Robin I was going to post. At least I was right about Usopp. Thanks! The hidee is kansai-ben for hidoi, I'm guessing? Sorry, don't want to derail this into Japanese class or something.
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Jan 11, 2012 21:26
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Nah, it's just slang. Any "ai" or "oi" sound can become "ee." Listen to Luffy and you'll hear him say "omoshiree."
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Jan 11, 2012 21:40
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Some Numbers posted:Nami: I'm asking who this ship's navigator is! Just who the hell do you think is the navigator!? 
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Jan 12, 2012 11:40
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Cuchulain posted:Just who the hell do you think is the navigator!? Ehhhh...sort of, but not really.
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Jan 12, 2012 21:25
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New Episode Zori!
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Jan 16, 2012 00:44
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Jimbot posted:New Episode Okay, so Caribou's a swamp man and not a clay man? Points for the start of this episode being REALLY creepy.
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Jan 17, 2012 00:40
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The whole Neptune saying his name and "Jamon" is irritating as hell... Was this just translated out of the manga or something?
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Jan 17, 2012 02:05
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Liar posted:The whole Neptune saying his name and "Jamon" is irritating as hell... Was this just translated out of the manga or something? You don't expect people in this show to have weird rear end speech patterns?
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Jan 17, 2012 02:34
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I expected more replies in here about how ridiculous the bust sizes have gotten.
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Jan 17, 2012 03:04
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socialsecurity posted:I expected more replies in here about how ridiculous the bust sizes have gotten. I think we all grew used to that particular failing of Odas a long time ago. It's quiet weird when you look at the first few volumes and see the slim, tomboyish Nami and then compare it to how she's...grown over the years admittedly, but it's been happening with so long I doubt most people even think about it much anymore.
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Jan 17, 2012 03:56
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tsob posted:I think we all grew used to that particular failing of Odas a long time ago. It's quiet weird when you look at the first few volumes and see the slim, tomboyish Nami and then compare it to how she's...grown over the years admittedly, but it's been happening with so long I doubt most people even think about it much anymore. Pretty sure socialsecurity is making a joke about a mermaid princess that is large enough to have breasts larger than a man. 
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Jan 17, 2012 04:08
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Bobulus posted:Pretty sure socialsecurity is making a joke about a mermaid princess that is large enough to have breasts larger than a man. Am I a terrible person for actually laughing at loud at that joke? Because I did. I knew it from the manga but I still got a laugh out of it.
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Jan 17, 2012 04:16
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