|
Cat Machine posted:I was under the impression that this game was gonna be closer executionally to MvC2 than anything else, what with the tighter chains and whatnot. It's much much easier execution-wise than MvC2, but not as easy as MvC3.
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 16:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:32 |
|
|
Cat Machine posted:I was under the impression that this game was gonna be closer executionally to MvC2 than anything else, what with the tighter chains and whatnot.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 16:40
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:It's much much easier execution-wise than MvC2, but not as easy as MvC3. If it's Melty Blood-ish I'm happy. Although I think that's about as easy as MvC3 so meh. My execution stardards are hosed up, I seriously believe SFIV has a pretty high execution ceiling, but that's probably because I suck at one-frame links.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 16:42
|
|
|
Dias posted:If it's Melty Blood-ish I'm happy. Although I think that's about as easy as MvC3 so meh. My execution stardards are hosed up, I seriously believe SFIV has a pretty high execution ceiling, but that's probably because I suck at one-frame links. Nah, that's not hosed up standards. Street Fighter has been in a need for a rehaul of its system for a while; for what's considered THE mainstream fighting game, the execution barrier is pretty drat high. I don't think anyone who buys the game on a whim learns a combo more complicated than Jab+Jab+Jab+Sweep. poo poo like Simple Mode is a bandage to the problem that ends up being a crutch at best - players don't learn the game, they just let the game play for them as they mash buttons. I'm of the school of thought that executing moves and basic combos should be easy, if not intuitive. I find that a sign of good controls is how much effort it takes for a player to turn a thought ("I want to do THIS super!") into action. Having a high execution barrier for supers or even special moves (see: ANY fighter that uses 360 joystick inputs) just needlessly delays players from focusing on where they SHOULD be putting their time and effort into: honing their reactions and mastering the gameplay systems. This isn't just unique to fighting games either - ALL games should ideally follow this, no matter what genre. This is probably the biggest reason why I think Fighting Games overall really need to step up their game in terms of design. They need to stop pretending they're developed in a vacuum and start paying attention to the lessons learned from other developers when they can.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 17:21
|
|
|
Fighting games need to allow benefits for those with high execution.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 17:49
|
|
|
Jetpack Postman posted:I'm of the school of thought that executing moves and basic combos should be easy, if not intuitive. I find that a sign of good controls is how much effort it takes for a player to turn a thought ("I want to do THIS super!") into action. Having a high execution barrier for supers or even special moves (see: ANY fighter that uses 360 joystick inputs) just needlessly delays players from focusing on where they SHOULD be putting their time and effort into: honing their reactions and mastering the gameplay systems. My one beef with this is inputs are often part of game balance. Not using incredibly wack inputs like two-half-circle-backs I 100% agree with, but something like a 360 is a fairly involved input for a reason. Zangief would be a very, very different character if SPD were a QCF motion and his 720 were QCFx2.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 17:50
|
|
|
dangerdoom volvo posted:Fighting games need to allow benefits for those with high execution. Find me a game, even one considered to have 'easy' execution that doesn't benefit someone with high execution. Whether it be that they are rewarded for their execution by virtue of consistency and always landing their full, max damage potential - or that they can make use of combos that a more neophyte player cannot do. The basic combo system in Vampire Savior is pretty basic - magic series, etc. No one (intelligent) will claim that game won't reward execution skills. Same with MvC2. And many others. It's just a game like SFIV where the part of the game that execution skill manifests (generally, any combo more complex than normal xx special xx ultra) is weird since so many combos (not just combo video material) in that require tight links, considering especially that the game is meant to be new player friendly and has large windows for teching, reversals, execution of specials along with input shortcuts, etc.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:09
|
|
|
rocket USA posted:My one beef with this is inputs are often part of game balance. Not using incredibly wack inputs like two-half-circle-backs I 100% agree with, but something like a 360 is a fairly involved input for a reason. Zangief would be a very, very different character if SPD were a QCF motion and his 720 were QCFx2. This is another thing: complex inputs shouldn't be used as a tool for game balance because ultimately they don't work. The only difference between two otherwise identical characters with simple and complex inputs is the amount of time you have to invest in order to perfect your execution. These aren't advanced combos that rely on a great number of other variables in order to execute (things that SHOULD require high execution and practice in order to be able to do - the real benefits of a high execution level); these moves are a simple joystick input. People who pick up the game might not be able to do it right all the time, but a player who goes to tournaments and already puts in regular time in Training mode - the audience fighting games want to keep - will be able to make doing these inputs second nature given enough time. These types of inputs do not seriously impact gameplay at all. Look at tournament videos for UltraDavid or any high-level Gief or T.Hawk player: they can do an SPD or standing 720 supers at the drop of a hat. Execution and the time it takes to input the command are not a problem. If these factors aren't a problem and you're using execution to balance out a move's damage or utility, then you're purposely giving certain characters more powerful tools than others and that's not balance. If these moves are more in line with others, all you're left with is a balanced move with a needlessly high execution barrier. Making these inputs more simple wouldn't change how these characters are ultimately played in the slightest. But that's not to say that tweaking inputs CAN'T be used for balance purposes. I have no problem with charge characters; their unique style of inputting commands gives them a deliberately different pace and style than other characters, and changing how these moves work would have drastic ramifications. Any video shown of the 3DS SSF4 can show you that. But this is because their inputs are simply different, not more difficult.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:12
|
|
|
360's aren't that way simply to counterbalance the effectiveness of SPD's. They are that way so that 1) you can't buffer the joystick input without jumping, unlike say a person buffering quarter circle motions while moving foward 2) they can be done without regard for the direction the opponent is standing, so they can be used for things like catching a crossing up opponent. I remember reading something along these lines, though I may have mus-remembered a bit of info, or the source may be wrong...
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:19
|
|
|
The 19th Person posted:360's aren't that way simply to counterbalance the effectiveness of SPD's. They are that way so that 1) you can't buffer the joystick input without jumping, unlike say a person buffering quarter circle motions while moving foward 2) they can be done without regard for the direction the opponent is standing, so they can be used for things like catching a crossing up opponent. If you can find the source, that would be fantastic. I'd like to read why that is, since I hadn't heard that side of the argument before. Pretty much all of my observations are just baseline stuff that I've observed watching tournament play and playing games on and off throughout the years. Anything from folks who are more intimately familiar with the nuts and bolts of fighting games would be awesome.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:38
|
|
|
All I know about complex input motions is that Geese Howard's raising storm and the huge demon from Samurai Shodown's command grab can go gently caress each other for all I care. I love Geese but gently caress the pretzel motion. Speaking of loving, how tight are dps in the game? Are they closer to SF4 or SF3?
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:40
|
|
|
Fayk posted:Find me a game, even one considered to have 'easy' execution that doesn't benefit someone with high execution. Of course, it's really all about finding a good balance between a low barrier of entry and a high skill ceiling.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:41
|
|
|
Shinku ABOOKEN posted:All I know about complex input motions is that Geese Howard's raising storm and the huge demon from Samurai Shodown's command grab can go gently caress each other for all I care. SF3. Quite a few input things are modeled after 3S (input, throw tech, and reversal windows).
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:42
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:SF3. Quite a few input things are modeled after 3S (input, throw tech, and reversal windows). Oh cool. Now I won't have to retrain myself to do proper dps when I play KoF.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:49
|
|
|
Wow, no figure the music was awesome. Castlevanias composer? Sign me up!
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 19:57
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:SF3. Quite a few input things are modeled after 3S (input, throw tech, and reversal windows). Is there low tech then? Edit: Or the million other OSes associated with 3S's throw system (jump tech is also one).
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 21:56
|
|
|
Shinku ABOOKEN posted:Oh cool. Now I won't have to retrain myself to do proper dps when I play KoF. KoF13 feels like it's stricter than 3S in terms of inputs, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 22:07
|
|
|
Waterbed posted:Is there low tech then? You can't crouch tech. No idea about other OS's.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 22:17
|
|
|
Jetpack Postman posted:These types of inputs do not seriously impact gameplay at all. Look at tournament videos for UltraDavid or any high-level Gief or T.Hawk player: they can do an SPD or standing 720 supers at the drop of a hat. Execution and the time it takes to input the command are not a problem. Yes they are. It doesn't matter how perfect your input is, a longer command input means you have less time to react with that move. If the input for an Uppercut was just 1 button, the input time for this move is a single frame. If instead, the input is 623P, the input time is now 3 frames minimum (probably 4-5F reasonably). Your DP is less useful because you must react that many frames faster for it to be effective. 360s/720s are a more extreme example since the inputs are even longer. A 720 takes a minimum of 8F of input (realistically more like 15F+) and that dramatically damages your ability to react to stuff with it. And unlike DP motions, you just can't just empty buffer them constantly (ie mashing 3232323 in SF4 waiting for something to DP). Because 360s/720s require an up direction, you must buffer them WITH something, else you end up with a jump. So they are mechanically less useful than DPs in this regard. And the reversal-able input thing of course, in a few games I've seen this be a very big deal, being able to use 360s to beat would-be OTG standing crossups makes them better than standard DP motions. Less of a thing with most modern fighters though, since they tend to have so much auto-correct. :/ Another obvious example are charge moves. Charge moves completely change the usage rules for a move. Can't throw a fireball if you are moving forward (conventionally anyway). Can't throw an uppercut if you were moving forward or backward. Can't throw an uppercut immediately after blocking high (ask anyone who plays a charge character VS a throw character in ST about this one). Charge moves are better than command moves in the sense that the actual reaction input is very short (up+Button, 1F minimum, realistically 2F or so), but worse in the sense you must have been charging beforehand to make use of it. A third example is that the input directions for a move often dictate what input tricks you can use along with them. General rule for 360s is that you can't go to neutral while you are rolling the input. In some games, this means you can't do something like, 8741236 6 P. That being, a 360 motion buffered before a dash, then that dash canceled into the 360. On the flip side, if your command throw was 63214, you could buffer your throw like, 6 63214. Or if your command throw was 41236, you could buffer it like 41236 6. In either event, you can buffer a dash before your throw and get a very fast dash->throw to extend the range of your grab. Even between those two examples, there's a fair difference in that in the first one, you can only cancel your dash on Frame 5, and on the second on, your dash can be canceled as early as the first frame. Makes a difference! One other example that SF4 really made apparent, if you're playing a game with absolute-guard (ie letting go of back during a block string will force your character to continue blocking anyway) and you have a reversal that doesn't require you to leave crouching (ie any DP in SF4 can be buffered as 323), this makes blockstrings that contain low hits less useful. If your reversal is a 360 or otherwise requires you to leave crouching, this causes you to be more vulnerable while buffering this input. interrodactyl posted:KoF13 feels like it's stricter than 3S in terms of inputs, though. KoF13 is extremely bizarre because in some senses the input is fairly strict, and in others its lenient to the point of being annoying. Some fun examples: 632146P gets interpreted as 623P, 6236P~P can get interpreted as 623P x 236236P, 21419P gets interpreted as 2141236P, 6[6] 236P gets interpreted as 623P, but 6[6] 2369P gets interpreted as 236P. And so on and so on. Gwyrgyn Blood fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jan 11, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 22:22
|
|
|
KoF also has extremely loose diagonal inputs for some reason. I'm playing in a Hori pad that can adjust diagonal sensitivity and when I go from the tight setting to the normal one it's twice as hard to hit crap. And I have it set on loose for every other game, so that's weird.
|
|
#
?
Jan 11, 2012 23:23
|
|
|
Can you choose music and stage, or is music auto assigned to certain stages??
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 02:58
|
|
|
dat fukkin dog!! posted:Can you choose music and stage, or is music auto assigned to certain stages?? Music is assigned to the stages.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 02:59
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:Music is assigned to the stages. Thats ok. I think form the music I've heard my fav is the stage set in the fall(?) with all the students and peeps in the background. lots of gold leaves and such
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:00
|
|
|
dat fukkin dog!! posted:Thats ok. I think form the music I've heard my fav is the stage set in the fall(?) with all the students and peeps in the background. lots of gold leaves and such That stage is called Maplecrest and yeah it's my favorite music as well.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:01
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:That stage is called Maplecrest and yeah it's my favorite music as well. Please release it to youtube, so I can listen to it thank you
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:02
|
|
|
dat fukkin dog!! posted:Please release it to youtube, so I can listen to it thank you You'll be able to hear it as much as you want come February 14th, the release date of Skullgirls.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:05
|
|
|
dat fukkin dog!! posted:Please release it to youtube, so I can listen to it thank you It'll probably be on youtube eventually as a music sampler but in the mean time I guess you can hear it starting about 20 seconds into this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6SuATsMg80
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:06
|
|
|
Peacock's grab super is so cool. Coolest super.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:14
|
|
|
What does Peacock say during her laser super? I have literally no idea.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:15
|
|
|
PalmTreeFun posted:What does Peacock say during her laser super? I have literally no idea. Argus Agony. Argus is the name of the mechanical cyborg system... thingy that peacock has wired to her. An argus is also a type of bird closely related to the peacock.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:19
|
|
|
PalmTreeFun posted:What does Peacock say during her laser super? I have literally no idea. "Argus Agony!" and "The Eyes of Argus!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:19
|
|
|
Okay, thank you. I was trying to figure out what Ivan LeVargeg was or something.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:22
|
|
|
She says a funny meme.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:22
|
|
|
dat fukkin dog!! posted:She says a funny meme. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 03:24
|
|
|
I like all the goofy jokes Peacock has in her move set. The buster sword, the giant robot fist from MvC2, and Sol Badguy's sword all come out of her "reach for the sky" move, there's "garbage day!" of course, and I have heard the "drop objects on people" special has a couple super rare jokes hidden in it. I also saw a weird cat show up during one of her moves, which is I think an in-joke with the dev team? Edit: VVVVV I stand corrected. inkblot fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Jan 12, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 04:10
|
|
|
inkblot posted:I like all the goofy jokes Peacock has in her move set. The buster sword, the giant robot fist from MvC2, and Sol Badguy's sword all come out of her "reach for the sky" move, there's "garbage day!" of course, and I have heard the "drop objects on people" special has a couple super rare jokes hidden in it. I also saw a weird cat show up during one of her moves, which is I think an in-joke with the dev team? The cat actually comes out of Cerebella's qcf+p move.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 04:13
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:Argus Agony. Argus is the name of the mechanical cyborg system... thingy that peacock has wired to her. An argus is also a type of bird closely related to the peacock. And of course back to the origin of everything Argus was the 100 Eyed Giant that Hera had guard Io, a nymph turned into a cow that Zeus wanted to have sex with.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 04:29
|
|
|
Eej posted:And of course back to the origin of everything Argus was the 100 Eyed Giant that Hera had guard Io, a nymph turned into a cow that Zeus wanted to have sex with. and Peacock has eyes on her arms.... 
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 04:41
|
|
|
Jmcrofts posted:and Peacock has eyes on her arms.... And when Argus was killed Hera plucked out his eyes and placed them on the tail of the peacock. Full circle 
LordVonEarlDuke fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jan 12, 2012 |
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 06:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 14:32 |
|
|
Countblanc posted:You'll be able to hear it as much as you want come February 14th, the release date of Skullgirls.
|
|
#
?
Jan 12, 2012 13:17
|
|
