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Servant posted:So, Enver signed "a secret Ottoman-German alliance against Russia" in August 2nd, 1914. "[T]his alliance was activated on October 29, when the Ottoman fleet bombarded several Russian ports on the Black Sea." Well, no, as someone else mentioned the naval incident was just the proximate cause, not the underlying cause. As I said earlier, I'm not qualified to talk about whether or not the Ottomans would have joined in WW1. However, it should be made clear that the incident was no accident - the German admiral, Souchon, was acting pretty deliberately (and without reference to Istanbul) when he fired on the Russians under the banner of the Ottomans. Whether or not the Ottomans had agreed to join the war, they WERE dithering - the bombardment forced their hand. (My own source is "Castles of Steel" by Robert K. Massie. It's pretty interesting - much of the naval war is, apparently, the result of wacky coincidences, horrible luck, and Churchill trying to micromanage everything from London (usually with lousy results.) Just for example, during the Scarborough Raid, the British used intercepted signals to set up an ambush for the German battlecruiser squadron bombarding British shores. However, although they did sent out their own battlecruiser squadron as well as the Grand Fleet's most powerful dreadnought squadron, they didn't bring out the Grand Fleet itself in support (against Jellicoe's objections). The Germans, however, DID bring out the High Seas Fleet, giving them an opportunity to defeat the British in detail and gain dreadnought superiority over Britain...except that the admiral of the High Seas Fleet ran into a British destroyer screen, assumed that the Grand Fleet was waiting behind them, and ran away. The German battlecruiser squadron, abandoned by the High Seas Fleet, subsequently managed to escape the British trap mostly unscathed due to bad weather, bad communication, and bad guesses on Beatty's part. There really were a lot of missed opportunities for a decisive battle.)
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Jan 26, 2012 11:54
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Munin posted:It also depends on which countries will get tagged as civilised. Unless Wiz finds some way to mod that mechanic. I hope most the Muslim nations are treated as civilized, just the simple fact that Egypt did not spend several centuries being ruled by the Mamluks makes a huge difference. The more advanced Morocco, stable Mughals and the Iran which has held its own repeatedly against the most powerful nation in the world should also change things. Azerbaijan's influence should also count for something.
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Jan 26, 2012 12:03
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Patter Song posted:The difference between proximate cause and, well...cause is an important distinction in WWI. The actual cause is an incredibly finely-tuned doomsday scenario that is by design almost impossible to stop once the wheels are in motion. Germany cannot lose its only reliable ally. Austria's going to war against Serbia, which will lead it to war with Russia, which will lead Russia to war with Germany. If Germany goes to war with Russia, it goes to war with France. Germany's strategy to beat France requires a super-fast sneak-attack through Belgium, it can't lose the advantage of surprise and the first strike or the whole plan is useless. So Germany's response to Russian mobilization involves an invasion of Belgium, which gives the British an excuse to declare war on Germany... The whole situation was also exacerbated by the Germans believing that they had to beat the Russians soon, otherwise the Russians would become too strong to tangle with. With the pace of Russian industrialization, that point was only a few years in the future, as far as German strategists were concerned. Delay the war until then, and Germany has to realign in some way, because they and Austria-Hungary would have no chance against the forces aligned against them. Perhaps that realignment would have been more stable, especially if it involved throwing Austria-Hungary under the bus in favor of Italy and Russia. Those few remaining years before the Germans would be forced to rethink their plans would be a giant minefield, since every great power was clamoring for war, but with a lot of luck WW1 could have been avoided. A more stable solution than two strong alliances arrayed against each other would probably be needed in the long run though. ZearothK posted:I hope most the Muslim nations are treated as civilized, just the simple fact that Egypt did not spend several centuries being ruled by the Mamluks makes a huge difference. The more advanced Morocco, stable Mughals and the Iran which has held its own repeatedly against the most powerful nation in the world should also change things. Azerbaijan's influence should also count for something.
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Jan 26, 2012 12:35
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The other issue is that whilst they might be strong by pre-industrial standards that might not mean that they are in a state to easily industrialise. And man, Russia is going to be scary come V2. Especially since mobilisation is going to generate huge armies for them as well.
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Jan 26, 2012 12:43
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Hey, I think it's been pointed out before, but we have a country of Armenia that hasn't held any of the territories and people that could be called "Armenian" for decades if not centuries, having instead moved west into what used to be Nicaea/Neobyzantium. How would that work, in practice? When a foreigner talks about "that Armenian guy", will that label apply to an ethnic Armenian living in Azerbaijan and/or to an ethnic Nicaean living in Armenia? Obviously forced migration didn't happen given Azeri tolerance. I can't think of a historical counterpart to that. Poland had wild swings but they always stayed around a fixed core; the Dukes of Savoy became Kings of Piedmont-Sardinia long before they gave their ancestral land to France, after which it became a trading card dynastic title like many others. But my knowledge of ROTW history is abysmal. Have we ever this kind of: Name: |A|B|C| -> | B |C| -> |B| C | Land: |A|B|C| -> |A&B|C| -> |A|B&C| that didn't involve "aggressive" ethnic policies?
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Jan 26, 2012 12:45
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Cyprus is Armenian culture and has been since the middle ages.
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Jan 26, 2012 12:51
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Also the region considered to be "Armenian" was much larger during the Medieval period before the Turkish migration pushed them out. The core of our timeline's Armenia (Cilicia) is where many Armenian refugees settled after the Seljuks invaded in the 9th and 10th centuries. This time around though the Byzantines and later Armenians were able to keep the Turkish tribes out of Anatolia.
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Jan 26, 2012 13:05
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Tomn posted:(My own source is "Castles of Steel" by Robert K. Massie. It's pretty interesting - much of the naval war is, apparently, the result of wacky coincidences, horrible luck, and Churchill trying to micromanage everything from London (usually with lousy results.) It isn't really much to do with coincidence and luck at all, though historians who look at isolated incidents without considering the larger picture would certainly see it as such. The problem with the Royal Navy in WW1 was a fatal lack of initiative on the part of junior and mid-level officers (and also some senior ones), meaning that they had to rely on everything going perfectly smoothly and a single mistake would jam everything up due to how centralised the fleet command structure was. There was some recognition of this in the years immediately prior to the war amongst officers like George Callaghan and David Beatty (who was a great big picture guy and unfortunately bad at things like DON'T PUT YOUR BATTLESHIPS 5 MILES BEHIND YOUR BATTLECRUISERS YOU MORON), but Jellicoe himself was an avid centraliser. Almost all of the major battlefleet mishaps in WW1 that don't relate to battlecruiser design are signalling mishaps (the breaking off of the pursuit at Dogger Bank certainly was, Jutland contained several, as did a couple of the other near misses and to some extent the escape of the Goeben, though that one could also be attributed to putting someone who had made flag rank as Admiral Commanding the Royal Yacht Squadron (no, seriously) in charge of the battlecruisers that were supposed to be shadowing her). Churchill being blamed for micromanagement at this point strikes me as extremely unfair. In WW2, yes. In 1914-5, no, not with Jacky Fisher as First Sea Lord. Terrible appointments of staff to important positions, yes. Micromanagement, no. Hmm, I should probably talk about something other than the RN in World War I, interesting though that topic is. So, Russia. The slightly odd thing about Russia is that though its sliders are in positions for a pretty modern state, it is lagging a long way behind in government technology. I think the fact that it frequently ends up at war with pretty much all of its neighbours has probably gone a fair towards developing a national consciousness - Poland, Azerbaijan, Persia, Zhen etc are helping to define Russia in the minds of the people who live there, by invading it every generation - but the legal structure hasn't really caught up, and so while in terms of raising armies and collecting taxes the Russian state is pretty centralised, criminal and civil law is probably still something of a mess of local precedents and privileges (quite possibly something that the growing capitalist/mercantile class is happy to maintain, if for example the major port cities/CoTs have local laws which favour them, they will probably fiercely resist attempts at legal standardisation.
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Jan 26, 2012 13:20
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Thanks for the DW mod tip!DarkCrawler posted:So...Great Powers come V2 (barring any shocking changes)? Assuming they can keep it together. Does Wizmod encourage colonial powers to create vassals if they see a successful revolt coming? That could be abused if it's done underway of course...
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Jan 26, 2012 14:33
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Also Wiz, did Thessalonica become Greece or is that a typo in the latest map?
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Jan 26, 2012 15:01
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No, he said that it formed Greece.
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Jan 26, 2012 15:06
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Cool!
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Jan 26, 2012 15:28
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Russia at this point would probably look like Russia of the 1860s: peasants were not technically serfs as in decades before the land reform, but landlords (former boyars) still managed to levy huge rents on technically independent villages. The produce was then exported to the west to support the high-spending aristocracy, which was subordinate to a very centralized government led by a strong Tsar. In this timeline, the serfdom in Russia probably didn't take as much hold as in OT (remember how serfdom came to Eastern Europe only after it started fizzing out in the West) because of Russia's unfriendly neighbours. There was no Prussia and Austria to export the grain through, only very unfriendly Poland. Less income to be made for the boyars (low aristocracy), less pressure on the peasantry (low serfdom), more need to find other means of income (high innovation, compared to OT Russia) With peasants much more free to move around, I think this Russia has a much lower population in its western parts, as peasants moved south and east to claim their own plots of land. Remember that tying the peasants to land in the west so the grain could be produced closer to big cities/export routes was a big reason why serfdom was so severe - prevent peasants from running to the steppes to become free cossacks. This would be good to mod into when doing the Vicky conversion, it would slow down the industrialization by spreading out the workforce.
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Jan 26, 2012 16:33
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 Chapter 42: Plutocracy (1750 - 1760) Conscious that he is approaching middle age and that neither his father nor grandfather lived past their 40s, Aram begins upon a long-planned campaign against the nobility, stripping them of privileges, offices, titles and land and opening up many offices and titles to wealthy citizens of common birth.   In a final act of humilation against the increasingly weak noble houses, he abolishes the Shura altogether, causing something of a scandal when his guards rough up and throw out a senile old noble who dared to show up in the Shura chambers.  With the nobility now completely cowed, Aram returns to the development of Azerbaijan's infrastructure, drawing roads to the far corners of every province and building counting-houses and treasuries to handle Azerbaijan's increasing wealth.   He also opens an academy of fine arts in Qarabagh, dedicating it to the glory of the Daei dynasty.  Persia invades Syria in 1755, and calls on Aram to join against Syria's grand alliance of Arab states.   Though the enemy alliance has a respectable army on paper, the antiquated Egyptian and Syrian armies prove utterly incapable at standing against modern Azeri armies, losing battles even where they outnumber the Azeris by two one.   Before long, Damascus is under siege and the Syrians quickly negotiate peace, ceding the disputed province of Al Jawf.   Like his father and grandfather, Aram does not live to see 50, passing away in 1758. He is succeded by his arrogant and devout son Burak, a very serious young man who devotes all this time to the army and the planning of a grand military adventure against the unbelievers of Armenia.     
Wiz fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jan 26, 2012 |
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Jan 26, 2012 17:30
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Is that a new colonial rebellion in British Louisiana? And yees, conquer that India Italy 
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Jan 26, 2012 17:34
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Kainser posted:Is that a new colonial rebellion in British Louisiana? Yeah, missed the event popup apparently.
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Jan 26, 2012 17:35
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Lookit dat discipline go 
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Jan 26, 2012 17:37
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It's fun looking at Korea constantly going at it with Manchu. They retook their province this time 
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Jan 26, 2012 17:40
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Ikko-Ikki seem to have broken Date completely in the past couple of updates, which is my second most desired outcome in Japan of the 3 that have been possible. Edit: also, go Zhen!
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Jan 26, 2012 17:42
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Zhen is about to finish the other Chinese states, nice. What's that little rebellion inside the Norwegian colonies?
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Jan 26, 2012 17:43
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Italy seems to be stagnating. Burgundy is expanding at twice the rate, they'll eat them up. What's up with those Norwies up in the midwest? What's the lighter blue?
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Jan 26, 2012 17:45
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^^ the lighter blue is Vestland. About time their revolution kicked in. Finally, the Burgundy/Netherlands border has become pretty again. And now, the bad news: Mann is gone 
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Jan 26, 2012 17:47
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Cowcatcher posted:Italy seems to be stagnating. Burgundy is expanding at twice the rate, they'll eat them up. That's Vestland. I already changed their color to be more distinct.
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Jan 26, 2012 17:48
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Pakled posted:Finally, the Burgundy/Netherlands border has become pretty again. I will admit that I did that landswap because the borders were annoying me. The provinces traded were very similar.
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Jan 26, 2012 17:49
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Franconia's gained some land too. Maybe they'll develop into a proper Great Power by Vicky. What's the name of the British Louisianan colonial revolter?
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Jan 26, 2012 17:51
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Wiz posted:Yeah, missed the event popup apparently. Also, is that a different new revolter in the Norwegian colonies? You now have a single light blue province there.
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Jan 26, 2012 17:51
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Burgundy is only a province or two away from all of modern-day France- Vive! Ragusa lost a province to Bosnia- the way the religious minority system works means there'll be Gnostic POPs in those areas even if they become majority Orthodox, right?
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Jan 26, 2012 17:51
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Kavak posted:Burgundy is only a province or two away from all of modern-day France- Vive! Speaking of Gnostics, I can't help but shed a single tear for our dear Unamed_Infants, who were promised to return one day but sadly never did.
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Jan 26, 2012 18:02
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Holy cow, Azerbaijan has been incredibly militarized over the past few decades. The word "Daei" is probably synonymous with "conquerer" or something. In some ways I think they're the most interesting (and most consistent) dynasty we've had so far. A series of dynamic and brilliant reformer kings with a penchant for war and bloodshed. Driving Azerbaijan kicking and screaming into the modern age and devil take whoever gets in the way of that. Come to that, the entire period of the Daeis is probably going to be remembered as an unmitigated Golden Age by future Azeri nationalists. Tomn fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Jan 26, 2012 |
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Jan 26, 2012 18:04
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Did chunks of Morrocco break off?
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Jan 26, 2012 18:12
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I played to 1790 last night so there is one more coming after this. Planning to finish up EU3 this week. Chapter 43: The Sword and the Pen (1760-1770) Burak III is the ruler of Azerbaijan. Nicknamed 'The Sword', he is a dour, zealous and militaristic ruler. Immediately upon ascending the throne, he made his intend to seize Armenia's remaining Anatolian holdings clear, moving troops to the border and preparing for war. Seeing what was coming, the Armenians petitioned Russia and Espanya for assistance but neither proved willing to spare time from their own wars to defend the Armenian rump state.  The Azeri army crosses the border in spring of 1760. The Armenians and their Bosnian allies bravely resist, but the outcome is given.   By 1761, all of Armenian Anatolia is occupied, but the Armenians continue their usual strategy of recruiting and resisting from their islanding holdings, refusing Burak's harsh peace offerings.  Burak had come prepared for this, having increasing the size of the Azeri navy to 22 squadrons of galleas just prior to the war. The fleet is sent out to open up the Armenian islands to invasion, but is attacked and defeated by the far more experienced Armenian fleet outside the Bulgarian coast.   With his fleet sunk, Burak is forced to rethink his plans. Bringing in shipwrights and carpenters from Poland and the Balkans, he orders the construction of a new fleet of western model: Composed of galleons and frigates, and crewed by western sailors recruited with Alanian gold.  It takes two years to build the new fleet, during which the army fends off several Armenian and Bosnian attempts to retake Asia Minor. Finally the fleet sails out of port at Cherson, heading south to the Sea of Crete, where it engages the Armenian fleet in battle outside Cyprus. The Armenian galleys prove chanceless against the cannons of Burak's galleons, and the entire Armenian fleet is reduced to splinters in a single battle, Azerbaijan's first naval victory.  With the Armenian fleet gone, Azeri troops cross over into Rhodes, destroying the large Armenian army stationed there and occupying the province.   When Burak orders the construction of a merchant fleet to transport Azeri troops to Cyprus, the Armenians finally give up the fight and agree to his peace terms, ceding all their territory outside the islands of Cyprus, Rhodes and Crete.  But when news reach Tabriz that the Armenians have signed the peace treaty, Burak is not there to hear it. Mere days before the peace, he had ridden out to inspect a company of troops a few miles from Tabriz. While inspecting the soldiers' new rifles, one of the rifles accidentally went off, hitting and killing the Sultan of Sultans. With Burak dead, Azerbaijan and its new territories passes to his brother Rafiq, a charming and mild-mannered young man nicknamed 'The Pen' for his stark contrast in personality to his brother.   Upon his coronation, Rafiq makes a radical proclamation to the assembled crowd: That he is absolute monarch by the consent of the population rather than by the will of Allah, and that hereafter the Azeri state shall be built on secular, enlightened grounds.   He proclaims full religious equality, abolishing all laws restricting those of non-Islamic religions from appointment to certain offices and ending the practice of Jizya.   He also enacts several laws strengthening the right of common farmers and abolishes other laws holding back the introduction of foreign agricultural methods.   Finally, he orders the founding of a new university situated at the old Armenian capital of Adana, which shall be the centerpiece of a new initiative to found schools and improve education among Azerbaijan's Armenian and Greek population.  I somehow didn't get a world screenshot but there's another update coming today that will have one.
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Jan 26, 2012 18:13
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Benagain posted:Did chunks of Morrocco break off? No, that's Italy.
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Jan 26, 2012 18:13
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Italy's looking to put a big ol' jewel on the Iron Crown. Also, Britain appears to be about ready to assert itself in South Africa.
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Jan 26, 2012 18:18
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Benagain posted:Did chunks of Morrocco break off? No, that's just Italy eating Morocco. Italy blobs more into Morocco and India, it's a good update.
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Jan 26, 2012 18:19
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Internet Azeri nationalists are NEVER going to loving shut up about the Daeis, ever.
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Jan 26, 2012 18:20
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The Pen is mightier than the Sword. And by that I mean that the armies of a score of Daeis would not be able to undo what Rafiq has set in motion, for good or (far more likely, at least from the view of keeping Azerbaijan together) ill. This will be...interesting. All hall the Liberal Empire! (actual liberalness of Empire not guaranteed).
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Jan 26, 2012 18:22
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Dangit, now its impossible for us to ever viva any revolutions. Curse you Rafiq!
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Jan 26, 2012 18:23
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Yess, maximum tolerance. And to go back to World War 1-chat for a while, let me present the best summary I've ever seen of the causes of World War 1.
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Jan 26, 2012 18:23
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Anatolia annexed (for the pretty borders!) AND maximum tolerance? This is the best update ever 
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Jan 26, 2012 18:25
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Enlightened Empire. Well, it is the era for it. Conquering Anatolia was really stupid. We should've released it as "Nicaea."
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Jan 26, 2012 18:26
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