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cryptoclastic posted:Okay, so I just finished Eye of the World, and there are some things I'm unclear about. I've read the series before, but I've never understood some things about the fight at the end with Aginor/Ba'alzamon. A few things of interest in that chapter and answer to your questions: Well here it goes: 1. There were three at the end of EoTW: Aginor, Balthamel and Ishamael(Ba'alzamon/Moridin) 2. The EotW is a conduit/bore/pool to saidin, the male half of the one power. Being so close to the EotW, channelers can see the threads/connections to the power. 3. Aginor and Balthamel have white cords to the pool because they are channeling saidin. Ishamael/Moridin (who Rand mistakes as the Dark One, ie. what he thinks Ba'alzamon means) is channeling the True Source, hence why his cord is black/dark. Ishamael is Nae'Blis and the uber forsaken, and is Moridin, basically Rand's final boss to beat. Some evidence suggests Ishamael is basically the Dark One incarnate. He is the only one who has been alive and affecting the world for 3000 years, with his hand in politics and influencing/making up prophecy. 4. As a side note, Ba'alzamon means "Heart of the Dark" in Trolloc tongue, and is the Trolloc name for Ishamael, but the world has come to think of Ba'alzamon as the dark one's name. 5. I believe only aginor and Balthamel die in this encounter, and Ishamael is playing tricks on Rand, or is only injured, like what happens in Falme, until he is killed by Calindor in the Stone of Tear, and is reborn as Moridin afterwards. 6. The voice rand hears is either the Dark One or the Creator. It is definitely not Lews Therin. 7. Rand transports/portals/gateways to Tarwins Gap and kills a lot of the Trolloc Army unconsciously, like all of his channeling before he learns to channel properly. Some other interesting notes about that chapter: - Moiraine says that this is where the dark one will strike. - Aginor and Balthamel say Mat is “an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy” Lascivious Sloth fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Jan 28, 2012 |
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Jan 28, 2012 15:42
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Thanks for the insight on all that. Glad to see that it wasn't just me being stupid or something. It's amazing how much foreshadowing and information was packed into just two little chapters. Ready to start The Great Hunt next week!
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Jan 28, 2012 17:08
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Lascivious Sloth posted:A few things of interest in that chapter and answer to your questions: Sorry, Sloth, but there's absolutely no evidence for that anywhere in the books and several pieces of evidence against it. It's just a Loony Theory.
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Jan 28, 2012 17:57
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Jedit posted:Sorry, Sloth, but there's absolutely no evidence for that anywhere in the books and several pieces of evidence against it. It's just a Loony Theory. Maybe for the first sentence, but there's a great deal of evidence for the second, especially in the Big Book of Bad Art.
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Jan 28, 2012 18:07
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The voice at the end is pretty funny if taken as the Creator, being basically a stand in for the writer and creator of the world ergo Robert Jordan, going "No my main character, we can't have the final battle just yet! That wouldn't sell a whole series of books, what are you thinking? Now go be a good hero and beat the evil lieutenant, I'll even give you a hand  ".
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Jan 28, 2012 19:46
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Neurosis posted:I thought Artur did it mostly by himself, but his hatred of the Aes Sedai and his refusal to seek Healing from one when he was dying was engineered by Ishamael.
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Jan 28, 2012 20:21
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DarkHorse posted:That's what I thought, too. Artur conquered most of the continent on his own. This unified empire of humanity was intolerable to the Dark One for how strong it made humans, so Ishamael engineered the fall of Artur by making him suspicious and eventually hate the Aes Sedai. After that, Ishamael kicked off the Trolloc wars to shatter the remaining human organization and prevent them from forming any large nations. The Trolloc Wars were a thousand years before the Consolidation. The timeline of major events sorta goes like this Fall of Age of Legends to Trolloc Wars 10 Before Breaking- The Bore is drilled, War of Shadow starts 0 After Breaking-> The Dragon strikes at Shayol Ghul, Dark One's counterstroke taints Saidin. The living scatter around, trying to find refuge. 47 After Breaking-> Tar Valon founded by 12 groups of women channelers 209 After Breaking-> Compact of 10 Nations signed 335 After Breaking-> Raolin Darksbane claims himself the Dragon Reborn. Captured and gentled. Considered the first False Dragon 1000 After Breaking-> Trollocs flood in from the north. Start of the Trolloc Wars 1200 After Breaking-> Manetheren falls, Trollocs take a heavy Pyrrhic victory. 1301 After Breaking-> Battle of Maighande fought. Trollocs finally repulsed and scattered. Yurian Stonebow declares himself Dragon Reborn 1308 After Breaking-> Yurian Stonebow captured and gentled. 1350 After Breaking-> Last army of Trollocs south of the Mountains of Dhoom. Trolloc wars finally considered over. New Calendar adopted 1-100 FY-> The world rebuilds from the ashes of the Trolloc Wars 100-912 FY-> Unimportant stuff happens. 912 FY-> Artur Paendrag Tanreall is born. 939 FY-> A plague kills the King and Queen of Shandalle, Artur Paendrag Tanreall becomes king. Guaire Amalasan declares himself Dragon Reborn, War of Second Dragon begins. 939-943 FY-> Amalasan conquers half of the continent and lays siege to Tear. Artur Paendrag Tanreall brings several armies to bear on Amalasan, becomes known as Hawkwing for speed which he can move armies with. 943 FY Artur Hawkwing defeats Amalasan, Amalasan captured and brought to Tar Valon. Amalasan's generals attack Tar Valon, repulsed. Hawkwing and Amyrlin Bonwhin are put at odds. 943-963 FY-> Several nations- allegedly urged by Bonwhin- attack Shandalle. Repulsed by Hawkwing, who siezes territories of attacking nations. By defending himself, he gains control over a large portion of the continent. Consolidation undertaken, ending in 963. Westlands are unified under a single Empire. 964-975- Peaceful years of Hawkwing's rule. Jalwhin Moerad appears to advise Hawkwing. 974, under Moerad's council, Hawkwing lays siege to Tar Valon. 989 FY- Artur Hawkwing builds a vast navy (4000 vessels and 600000 people). 992 FY- Hawkwings son- Luthair Paendrag Mondwin- leads Navy across Aryth ocean. Bonwhin dispose, Aes Sedai attempt to treat with Artur Hawkwing, to no avail. 994 FY- Hawkwing's last surviving heir dies and her son disappears. Hawkwing falls ill and dies with no apparant heir. Hawkwing's Empire crumbles under civil war as his generals attempt to take control. War of the Hundred Years begins. 994-1117 FY- War of the Hundred Years. Various politiking occurs. Eventually, all of Hawkwings Empire is split up or lost. 1135 FY-> Datekeeping is unknown to be accurate. New Calendar adopted 1 New Era- 509 New Era (NE)- Politiking and random stuff, nothing too important. 509 NE-> Aiel give the Carheinien a Sapling of Avendesora and make peace with them, granting them access across the Wastes. This occurs because of the gift of water that was given to the Aiel by the Carheinien ancestors. Carhein becomes rich. 509-955 NE-> More random Politiking, not too important 955 NE-> Malkier falls, Jain Farstrider starts his wandering. 2 year old Al'Lan Mandragoran taken to Shienar for safety 957 NE-> Whitecloak War. Tam Al'Thor fights for Illian during the conflict. 968 NE-> Andor and Carhien make peace. Tigrane marries Taringail Damodred 972 NE-> Tigrane mysteriously disappears after giving birth to Galad Damodred. Andor plunged into chaos, Succession war occurs. Morgase finally takes the throne, marries Taringail Damodred. 976 NE-> Laman's plot to have Taringail rule covertly fails as Morgase becomes hard to control. In a show of non-chalance, Laman cuts down Avandoladera, the tree of life sapling, to make himself the grandest throne. 976-978 NE-> The Aiel War. 4 clans of Aiel come across the Dragonwall. 90 000 Aiel invade Carhien, unleashing a lot of destruction upon the 'treekillers'. They hunt Laman, eventually reaching Tar Valon. The Grand Alliance attacks the Aiel outside of Tar Valon. Called the Battle of the Shining Walls, the Aiel corner Laman and kill him. They then retreat back over the Dragonwall. On the slopes of Dragonmount, Tam Al'Thor finds a child amongst the dead. Names the child Rand, he heads back to the Two Rivers with his wife, takes up farming. 978- Matrim Cauthon and Perrin Aybara are born. 978- Onwards, spoilerly stuff happens. 997-998 NE-> Logain Ablar declares himself Dragon Reborn, captured and taken to Tar Valon for gentling. Main Sequence starts here.
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Jan 29, 2012 01:00
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cryptoclastic posted:Okay, so I just finished Eye of the World, and there are some things I'm unclear about. I've read the series before, but I've never understood some things about the fight at the end with Aginor/Ba'alzamon. People have already answered these pretty well, but I'll just add one or two things 1. Aginor and Balthamel are clearly after the Eye of the World. It contains enough power to break the dark one's seal after all, and besides that, just contains a CRAPLOAD of power. The kind of thing Rand does at the end where he annihilates the Trolloc army is pretty drat impressive. Rand is the strongest single channeler in the series and when he does a similar feat in book 13 (with an angreal I think) he exhausts himself. I'm not sure on the size disparity but I think the armies were about equal. Beyond that, all the male forsaken have to channel saidin through a bond with the dark one, so they aren't corrupted by the taint, Aginor wanted the Eye of the World so he could channel without the Dark One knowing what he was doing also 2. Yeah. The whole sequence is pretty confusing, which I think is partially intentional. Moirane says when someone starts to channel "the fever and the touching of the true source come at practically the same time". Rand is pretty clearly in a confused fever-dream state the entire time here. 3. As has been said it's definitely Ishamael, this is outright confirmed by Book 3. What Rand cut in his fight with him, the black cord stretching away from him, was his Bond to the Dark One that allowed him to channel the power untainted and touch the True Power at all. He does the same to another forsaken later (Asmodean, I think?). They were pretty definitely fighting in the world of dreams. When Rand opens a gate to enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh when fighting Rahvin (I think) he explicately says that he remembers doing the same thing in his battle at Tarwin's gap Starting to look like a CIA document here. My biggest hang up is all the talk of Aginor being "not far behind Ishamael and the Dragon in terms of power". Given what we learn later this is likely pretty untrue. I think Aginor is probably just full of himself and Moirane's info is wrong That reminds me, while Moirane is pretty weak compared to the Forsaken and Nynaeve and Rand and some of the other channelers who show up later in the series, am I right in my remembering that she is basically one of the strongest Aes Sedai in the White Tower? I know there is Cadsuane, and a few strong women in new Spring who wind up dead but I think she is pretty high up there by the standards of the Tower. Ishamael was pretty much Merlin to hawkwing's King Arthur, whispering in his ear, sowing distrust and such, against the White Tower. I think Ishamael was allowed to affect the pattern in cycles of 1000 years, with every time lasting 40 years or so.
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Jan 29, 2012 02:33
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Obviously I'm going to have to finish the series then come back and start this thread from the beginning. I don't remember half the things people are mentioning!
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Jan 29, 2012 05:49
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berenzen posted:[timeline] 
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Jan 29, 2012 06:48
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The bad art book is interesting in that it has a map of the Westlands after the trolloc wars but before the Consolidation. There's tons of little pissant nations scattered all over that are never ever mentioned in the main story. Then again it also has the Ten Nations clearly laid out as well. I always loved looking at those maps and comparing them to the 'current' layout of nations.
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Jan 29, 2012 07:04
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Gain 20 Pounds posted:The bad art book is interesting in that it has a map of the Westlands after the trolloc wars but before the Consolidation. There's tons of little pissant nations scattered all over that are never ever mentioned in the main story. Then again it also has the Ten Nations clearly laid out as well. I always loved looking at those maps and comparing them to the 'current' layout of nations. One of the really interesting things to not is how dead and separated the various nations and societies got over time. Back in Hawkwing's day there were a ton of nations jostling for room in the middle of the continent which has been turned into a sort of unsettled no man's land. There are huge swathes of what is now Andor especially that were abandoned and just never resettled. I mean at one point Manetheran, the long stretch of land that now holds four villages of a few hundred people, rivaled Andor for size and population. The Westlands are in really, really heavy decline.
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Jan 29, 2012 08:24
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Zore posted:One of the really interesting things to not is how dead and separated the various nations and societies got over time. Back in Hawkwing's day there were a ton of nations jostling for room in the middle of the continent which has been turned into a sort of unsettled no man's land. There are huge swathes of what is now Andor especially that were abandoned and just never resettled. This is explicitly stated in the books when someone - probably Elayne, but it may be Moiraine - is talking about the Two Rivers technically being part of Andor. She says (roughly) that there's hardly a nation that claims as much on the map as it did fifty years ago, and even then they don't own everything they claim. The Two Rivers was not the whole of Manetheren, BTW, it just happened to be where the capital was. Here's a diagram of Manetheren's territory:  As you can see, it claimed everything as far north as Baerlon and the whole of what is now Ghealdan. Now, see that river running east in the middle? The Two Rivers is the bit between that river's fork.
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Jan 29, 2012 10:22
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berenzen posted:The Trolloc Wars were a thousand years before the Consolidation. One little  nitpick, the Bore wasn't drilled 10 years before the Breaking. The Bore was drilled about 110 years before the breaking, which led to 100 years of the breakdown of the (what I imagine to be, anyway) utopian society and the rise of darkfriends and whatnot.Then the War of the Shadow breaks out in the final decade before the Breaking. http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline Not that it really has any impact on the story at all 
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Jan 29, 2012 11:37
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Arrath posted:One little Oh, my mistake, I'd go back and change it but 
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Jan 29, 2012 12:24
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Didn't that part change a little as well? I think early on (before much of the background was set in stone) it was more like a general "war of the power" lasting for around a hundred years after the bore -> Breaking. Then RJ changed his mind or something and made it into 100 years of decline followed by 10 years of open warfare? Or did I just dream that change up out of nowhere? Could've sworn I read that somewhere  (Not that it changes/impacts much of anything storywise, other than making the war even more mindboggling gently caress-huge)
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Jan 29, 2012 18:31
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Pimpmust posted:Didn't that part change a little as well? No, it's stated in the intro of tEotW by Lews Therin to Ishamael that "Ten years your Master has wracked this world." He's talking about the War of Shadow, though wars were breaking out in the hundred years before that, known as the Decline.
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Jan 29, 2012 20:12
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berenzen posted:No, it's stated in the intro of tEotW by Lews Therin to Ishamael that "Ten years your Master has wracked this world." He's talking about the War of Shadow, though wars were breaking out in the hundred years before that, known as the Decline. Yeah yeah, but maybe before that. Like, when RJ was still thinking up the world and such (Rand wasn't gonna be the main character then, more like a Lews Therin kinda dude... which then got reused once the ball got rolling I guess). From an interview or another where they discussed that sequence? Or maybe I'm remembering having a confused memory of years and timelines of the series, which is awfully confusing to be having after the fact 
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Jan 29, 2012 21:18
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Neurosis posted:I thought Artur did it mostly by himself, but his hatred of the Aes Sedai and his refusal to seek Healing from one when he was dying was engineered by Ishamael. Artur did all of the unification on his own, but near the end Ishmael popped up and became his main advisor. He put the seeds of distrust of Aes Sedai in Artur, which led to the attack on the white tower, Artur sending his sons across the sea, and his eventual downfall and the breaking of the empire.
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Jan 29, 2012 22:30
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regarding Artur Wasn't the start of the troubles with the Aes Sedai something to do with a law against armies entering Tar Valon territory without the consent of the Amyrlin Seat? I thought I remembered that when he broke the first siege that saved the White Tower, the Amyrlin put out a warrant for the arrest of Hawkwing despite his heroic actions. In which case the distrust was already there for Ismael to take advantage of. There may be something else (I can't remember where) that hints towards black sisters actually having a hand in the death of Artur's family, which would be just the thing to lend the "Father of Lies" more influence in convincing Hawkwing
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Jan 30, 2012 05:37
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Zore posted:One of the really interesting things to not is how dead and separated the various nations and societies got over time. Back in Hawkwing's day there were a ton of nations jostling for room in the middle of the continent which has been turned into a sort of unsettled no man's land. There are huge swathes of what is now Andor especially that were abandoned and just never resettled. I don't remember which book mentions it, but certain named parts of the landmass used to be nations. Almoth Plain used to be Almoth. The Caralain Grass used to just be Caralain. The nations went under and no one ever bothered to claim the land. I think there are more but I don't have the main map handy. It's sad I think WoT history is more interesting than my own country's history.
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Jan 30, 2012 05:38
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Recursive Expanse posted:regarding Artur Wasn't the start of the troubles with the Aes Sedai something to do with a law against armies entering Tar Valon territory without the consent of the Amyrlin Seat? I thought I remembered that when he broke the first siege that saved the White Tower, the Amyrlin put out a warrant for the arrest of Hawkwing despite his heroic actions. In which case the distrust was already there for Ismael to take advantage of. There may be something else (I can't remember where) that hints towards black sisters actually having a hand in the death of Artur's family, which would be just the thing to lend the "Father of Lies" more influence in convincing Hawkwing Essentially, When Guaire Amalasin's generals attacked Tar Valon, Artur Hawkwing repulsed them, but he didn't get permission from Bonwhin- the Amyrlin at the time. So she got pissy with him. Afterwards, it is thought the several nations that attacked Hawkwing's homelands did so with the blessing/urging of the Amyrlin Seat, that's what really caused the division and the mistrust. So when Ishamael came along, he just needed to foster it.
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Jan 30, 2012 06:19
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Gain 20 Pounds posted:I don't remember which book mentions it, but certain named parts of the landmass used to be nations. Almoth Plain used to be Almoth. The Caralain Grass used to just be Caralain. The nations went under and no one ever bothered to claim the land. I think it's in book 2 when they're going after the stolen Horn and Padan Fain
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Jan 30, 2012 07:20
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Gain 20 Pounds posted:I don't remember which book mentions it, but certain named parts of the landmass used to be nations. Almoth Plain used to be Almoth. The Caralain Grass used to just be Caralain. The nations went under and no one ever bothered to claim the land. Almoth is claimed by both Arad Doman and Tarabon. It's not part of either nation because whenever one of them tries to annex it, the other fights them for it. WOT history is more interesting than American history because there's more than 250 years of it.
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Jan 30, 2012 09:33
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Jedit posted:WOT history is more interesting than American history because there's more than 250 years of it. And no one talks about the importance of the cotton gin.
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Jan 30, 2012 17:57
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Prison Warden posted:Eganin is a different character. This is my first reading so I'm not sure how often he's involved, but I'd like to see a tally of Thom blowing out or fiddling with his mustache.
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Jan 30, 2012 22:17
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I'm crossposting this from the main thread, but here is a great lengthy blog post that walks you through the timeline of WOT starting with the 1st AGE up through the breaking. Part 2 will cover the breaking and the exile of the Da'Shain Aiel. Obviously there are probably spoilers in this, so read at your own risk, but I found it to be most enjoyable. http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2012/01/wheel-of-time-so-far-part-1-age-of.html
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Jan 31, 2012 01:11
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Wowee zowee! We're onto book 2, The Great Hunt. (spoiler: This Book Rocks!) Let's read through chapter 18 this week homies!  January 30th - 6 February, The Great Hunt Prologue - Chapter 18
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Jan 31, 2012 02:33
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DrGonzo90 posted:This is my first reading so I'm not sure how often he's involved, but I'd like to see a tally of Thom blowing out or fiddling with his mustache. I thought of a good one rereading the chapter in Fal Dara Keep: Count how many times over the course of the series a Big Manly CharacterTM crumples the metal goblet they're drinking from in their hands in lieu of an emotional outburst because Real Men Don't Show Emotion Except Through Displays Of Physical Strength. Bonus points if you cross reference it with the number of times the goblet and drink are replaced immediately and without consequence or comment by onlookers/servants. This happens on at least three distinct occasions by three totally different male characters I can recall off the top of my head.
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Jan 31, 2012 18:35
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omnibobb posted:Wowee zowee! We're onto book 2, The Great Hunt. (spoiler: This Book Rocks!) Note: after the fanfuckingtastic prologue the first couple chapters of wacky oops-shoulda-left-town-a-month-ago-now-im-hiding-from-nobility-and-honored-guests-in-their-own-castle hijinx do not, in fact, rock. But it gets way better really quick!
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Jan 31, 2012 18:41
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I'm on book 3 and I must say the braid tugging really takes off with this one. I didn't really notice it much in the first 2 but now I see what all the fuss was about.
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Jan 31, 2012 19:25
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Willie Tomg posted:Note: after the fanfuckingtastic prologue the first couple chapters of wacky oops-shoulda-left-town-a-month-ago-now-im-hiding-from-nobility-and-honored-guests-in-their-own-castle hijinx do not, in fact, rock. But it gets way better really quick! One thing I always felt was a bit of a missed opportunity is, when Rand is meeting the Amyrlin Seat, he does a lot of borderlander stuff, but then he does this cool kind of ritual where he accepts water and then sprinkles a few drops on the floor and says (paraphrased) "The Land Thirsts". I was convinced, (since it's fairly obvious if you pay any degree of attention that Rand is an Aielman) that that was gonna show up later as an Aiel custom, showing off more of Lan's world knowledge and just loving with Siuan even more. Sadly that little tidbit is never seen again, in my recollection. Rohan Kishibe fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 21:18
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Is the first book still to be talked about with spoilers? I guess not since everybody's past that. I really need to stay out of this thread til I finish book 1 
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Jan 31, 2012 21:21
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I think everything prior to Chapter 18 in book 2 is now discussable without spoilers.
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Jan 31, 2012 21:28
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Daedalus Esquire posted:I think everything prior to Chapter 18 in book 2 is now discussable without spoilers. You're probably right. See y'all in a few days!
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Jan 31, 2012 21:31
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Lascivious Sloth posted:
Questions: If saidin is white and the True Source is black, what color is saidar? Does Moiraine know that Rand hasn't actually killed the Dark One, and just doesn't have the heart to tell him? And Shai'tan is the name of the Dark One, right? (not sure if that's a spoiler or not since I've read some of the spoilered text so far). I must have missed what actually killed Aginor. Rand just comes back to reality and Aginor is dead. What happened to him? Also, it was Rand's desire to find him that caused the Green Man to appear when he did, right? Did Rand destroy the Eye? DrGonzo90 fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 22:20
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DrGonzo90 posted:Questions: What makes you think they have colors? Your terminology is also a bit mixed. sidin + saidar = the True Source. Moiraine knows that wasn't the Last Battle and that means the Dark One is still alive Aginor drew in too much power and burned himself to death, so to speak. As far as I know, it was everyone's need/desire/ta'veren-ness He used up all it's power and it was just a pool of power.
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Jan 31, 2012 22:29
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terminal mehmet posted:What makes you think they have colors? Your terminology is also a bit mixed. sidin + saidar = the True Source. The post I quoted said that the white cords were people channeling saidar and the black cord on Ba'alzamon was him channeling the True Source. It's kind of confusing. Is the True Source and the One Power the same thing? e:\/\/\/ OK that makes some sense. Most of my confusion came from the fact that Aginor and Rand both had the white cords, it wasn't really obvious why that was the case but I get it now. DrGonzo90 fucked around with this message at 22:42 on Jan 31, 2012 |
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Jan 31, 2012 22:35
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DrGonzo90 posted:The post I quoted said that the white cords were people channeling saidar and the black cord on Ba'alzamon was him channeling the True Source. It's kind of confusing. Is the True Source and the One Power the same thing? Oh yeah, that always confused me. I think the black cords are supposed to be from the Dark One, which is commonly referred to as the True Power later on. The True Source is supposed to be saidin + saidar and what "turns the wheel of time" edit: here's a good reference http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/index.html
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Jan 31, 2012 22:39
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Sorry I meant the True Power is the black cord, and saidin, the One Power, were the white cords. I assume saidar would also be white as it is coming from the True Source too.
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Feb 1, 2012 00:03
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