Pureauthor posted:Has Assad made any speeches or appearances lately? Yes, he appeared at a hospital recently. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/feb/01/syria-bashar-al-assad-hospital-video
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Feb 6, 2012 18:04
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Jut posted:Sounds like things are about to escalate. Corner Iran and they are going to lash out. That's what I was thinking when I first read about it, back in January. The new sanctions are part of the plan laid out in NDAA 2012. I can't really see what they hope to accomplish besides making Iran lash out, and it's the last thing anyone needs right now.
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Feb 6, 2012 18:07
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not sure if this is 100% thread relevant, but found this interesting article this morning http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/06/iran-idUSL5E8D50L320120206 Somebody fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Apr 24, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 18:13
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People in Baba Amr fleeing from shelling today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9HwxnVYQd0 edit: In case your ringtone wasn't revolutionary enough, http://www.4shared.com/mp3/sgvlmUXs/Yasqot_Yasqot_7okm_El-3askar.html
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Feb 6, 2012 18:14
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I think everyone should read this leaked report by the Gulf Cooperation Council on what is really going on in Syria. It is foreign nationals who are killing civilians attempting to justify war against Assad. The guy is not nice, but he is not doing all the things that he is accused of. Stop buying into the propaganda. http://www.columbia.edu/~hauben/Report_of_Arab_League_Observer_Mission.pdf
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Feb 6, 2012 18:57
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Arab League and that's not what the report says. edit: Though supposedly 3 Libyans were just killed in Syria. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=273252946075711&set=a.152420998158907.35496.149796395088034&type=1&ref=nf
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Feb 6, 2012 18:58
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Yemen's election campaign starts off today, as part of the political transition plan. Oh wait, there's only one candidate running and he's Saleh's vice president. Epic fail. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/06/yemen-election-idUSL5E8D62U420120206
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Feb 6, 2012 19:05
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Hamelekim posted:I think everyone should read this leaked report by the Gulf Cooperation Council on what is really going on in Syria. It is foreign nationals who are killing civilians attempting to justify war against Assad. The guy is not nice, but he is not doing all the things that he is accused of. Stop buying into the propaganda. tl;dr, tell us which page this assertion is on. Though considering you didn't even know what organization it came from, maybe you haven't read it much either.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:05
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That report was written by an actual war criminal and could be twisted by either side to conform to their own version of events. The entire AL monitoring mission was a farce given its leadership, and subsequent evidence out of Syria demonstrates that even if the government did move military equipment and forces out of residential areas during the mission, it sure as hell moved them right back in after they left.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:06
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Xandu posted:Arab League and that's not what the report says. No, of course not. The report says that they saw groups of armed militants attacking and killing civilian and military forces. But that isn't what they saw, according to you. From the report: quote:26. In Homs and Dera‘a, the Mission observed armed groups committing acts of violence against I don't see how anyone can be intellectually honest with themselves and still believe what is being said about these countries leaders. It is clear that the West wants to overthrow these governments that are friendly to China and Russia, and that they want to secure the oil and other resources in those countries. This has nothing to do with freedom, democracy, or human rights. If those countries had played nice with the West, they wouldn't be in this situation.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:08
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So where in the report did you get the foreign nationals bit from? And this is all ignoring the fact that the mission was a joke regardless of how you feel about the situation in Syria, and the report nearly says as much.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:09
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Golbez posted:tl;dr, tell us which page this assertion is on. Though considering you didn't even know what organization it came from, maybe you haven't read it much either. I skimmed it, I'm not going to read the entire thing as most of it is procedural stuff. I quoted the part I found most relevant. Start at point 26 in the document.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:09
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Protest in Hirak today, they're chanting "with our souls, with our blood, we shall redeem you Syria". Minor trivia about the chant- it dates back at least to 19th century Egypt and has been commonly used in demonstrations since then, especially in Palestine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4tocCQHVXA az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 19:13
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Hamelekim posted:I don't see how anyone can be intellectually honest with themselves and still believe what is being said about these countries leaders. It is clear that the West wants to overthrow these governments that are friendly to China and Russia, and that they want to secure the oil and other resources in those countries. This has nothing to do with freedom, democracy, or human rights. If those countries had played nice with the West, they wouldn't be in this situation. That the media has exaggerated is known, but that doesn't mean bad things haven't happened. If the media inflated a number from 50 to 200, that still means 50 were killed. I see nothing in what you quoted blaming foreign nationals or absolving the regime. Google tells me this report has been making the rounds in message boards and comment threads, and little else. Perhaps the fact that it was, as pointed out, created by a war criminal is a black mark on its legitimacy. I like how this one report is irrefutable proof that we're all being intellectually dishonest and shilling for the West. Right. As if China has no interest in securing any oil, they are magnanimous benefactors who wish only peace and love.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:13
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Unfortunately, I don't speak French, but there's some really great maps in this paper about the sectarian breakdown of various cities in Syria. http://mom.academia.edu/FabriceBalanche/Papers/1099089/Geographie_de_la_revolte_syrienne_Geography_of_Syrian_revolt_
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Feb 6, 2012 19:17
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az jan jananam posted:"with our souls, with our blood, we shall redeem you Syria", a chant which dates back to 19th century Egypt Do you have a source for this? I've always been curious about its origin since you hear it all the time these days.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:18
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Xandu posted:So where in the report did you get the foreign nationals bit from? And this is all ignoring the fact that the mission was a joke regardless of how you feel about the situation in Syria, and the report nearly says as much. Foreign nationals is an assumption I made, given their involvement in the other uprising, to various degrees. I want to make it clear, I do not support the Assad government. But I can't support what the West is doing, because it is not going to lead to any kind of democracy or freedom in Syria. Look at what has happened in the other countries that have overthrown their old masters. Libya is essentially in a civil war, and Egypt is still a mess with no real hope of true democracy or freedom. Iraq is also on the verge of another dictator. I just see so many people cheering on these movements to overthrow these dictators without really looking at what is going on geopolitically, or after the fact. People need to get a clue and realize that these movements are not home grown, and they are part of a plan to reshape the middle east to shore up corporate oil interests in the middle east, and the curb Chinese and Russian influence and resource gathering in the region.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:22
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Hamelekim posted:Foreign nationals is an assumption I made, given their involvement in the other uprising, to various degrees. So your solution is to, what, do nothing?
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Feb 6, 2012 19:23
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Golbez posted:That the media has exaggerated is known, but that doesn't mean bad things haven't happened. If the media inflated a number from 50 to 200, that still means 50 were killed. I see nothing in what you quoted blaming foreign nationals or absolving the regime. I don't disagree with you. But it is in the interest of the West to make Assad out to be the most horrible monster in existence, and this justifies going on there. I feel that too many people are falling for the act.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:24
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So your solution is to, what, do nothing? I mean, honestly, other than isolating Syria internationally (which hasn't been done as well as it should be, unfortunately), there's really not much that should be done. A regional proxy war is the most likely outcome of international involvement, and that's an outcome worse than the status quo, as terrible as it is. edit: On the other hand, I can hardly condemn Syrians for arming themselves.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:25
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Xandu posted:I mean, honestly, other than isolating Syria internationally (which hasn't been done as well as it should be, unfortunately), there's really not much that should be done. A regional proxy war is the most likely outcome of international involvement, and that's an outcome worse than the status quo, as terrible as it is. With you on this one. I hope our governments don't choose to go it alone ALA Iraq, following the vetos
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Feb 6, 2012 19:27
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From my understanding Syria isn't a great source of oil or natural resources. It has a very important port to the Mediterranean sea through Latakia, but not much else, save for geographical territorial importance. Second, blaming the media for skewing the information coming out of Syria in favor of the opposition is a little bit ignorant considering it's the government refusing any media from reporting on the situation. Animosity and a general feeling of skepticism towards an organization that refuses to allow let alone embrace freedom of information is only natural. Finally, accusing the opposition at this point of crimes and bloodshed is fair. This has become a civil war, and the veto for international intervention has only made that concrete. However, it would be ignorant to disregard how it got to this point. The first 9 months of this crackdown and the 5000 people killed had been by and large at the hands of the government against what was peaceful protests. At this point, it's all gone to poo poo. Yes, there is blood on the hands of both sides. And there will be far more to come. e: Hamelekim posted:I just see so many people cheering on these movements to overthrow these dictators without really looking at what is going on geopolitically, or after the fact. People need to get a clue and realize that these movements are not home grown, and they are part of a plan to reshape the middle east to shore up corporate oil interests in the middle east, and the curb Chinese and Russian influence and resource gathering in the region.  Believe me, there isn't enough oil corporation influence or money that would cause the tens of thousands of Syrians to revolt in the street and stand against open artillery and armored weapons and 6000+ deaths. And it's insulting you would suggest otherwise. Sivias fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 19:28
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So your solution is to, what, do nothing? Essentially, yes. Because this whole uprising is a creation of the West. I don't doubt that there are people who want him gone, but until they (the West) stirred the pot we didn't see this massive violence. We can't go around the world "freeing" people from governments we don't like. They don't even have a history of democracy, yet we are trying to somehow institute democracy in these nations, as though it is that simple. The governments that replace them could easily be worse. Islamic extremists who push for strict behavioral laws like in Saudi Arabia. That is the most likely outcome. I would rather we see secular dictators who keep the violence to a minimum than radical Islamist governments.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:28
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Xandu posted:Do you have a source for this? I've always been curious about its origin since you hear it all the time these days. I read in a newspaper article that it was used in anti-imperialist protests against the British but I can't produce it on the internet. This article mentions its usage as early as the 1930s
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Feb 6, 2012 19:29
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Xandu posted:I mean, honestly, other than isolating Syria internationally (which hasn't been done as well as it should be, unfortunately), there's really not much that should be done. A regional proxy war is the most likely outcome of international involvement, and that's an outcome worse than the status quo, as terrible as it is. All of this is true, yes, but there's a difference between what you're saying and the old argument that this is really the West's fault for not denying that Assad is, by all reasonable definitions, a nasty piece of work who is pretty much responsible for the entire situation. Saying "The West" is at fault for his actions is, IMO, asinine. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 19:29
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Hamelekim posted:I skimmed it, I'm not going to read the entire thing as most of it is procedural stuff. Since you skimmed it, you may have also missed this: quote:71. The Mission determined that there is an armed entity that is not mentioned in the protocol. This The "armed entities" grew entirely out of reaction to Assad's crackdown. In many ways, this has played into the government's hands by giving their previously laughable "armed gangs" narrative some credibility, but this demonstrates that even the farcical Arab League mission believes that armed opposition came AFTER the crackdown, not before it.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:32
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suboptimal posted:Since you skimmed it, you may have also missed this: Yet this was all started by the West in the first place. I don't see Assad's response to all of this as being justification to take him out. The guy is a dictator, of course he is going to use violence to stop a violent uprising. What do you honestly believe will be the outcome in Syria? Do you honestly believe that the Wests involvement has anything to do with democracy and freedom, rather than corporate and geopolitical interests?
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Feb 6, 2012 19:38
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Hamelekim posted:I think everyone should read this leaked report by the Gulf Cooperation Council on what is really going on in Syria. It is foreign nationals who are killing civilians attempting to justify war against Assad. The guy is not nice, but he is not doing all the things that he is accused of. Stop buying into the propaganda. I guess we were due for another "I know you guys have been following all this stuff since it started, but I just read this article that has the real truth in it!"  post...
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Feb 6, 2012 19:40
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Hamelekim posted:Essentially, yes. Because this whole uprising is a creation of the West. I don't doubt that there are people who want him gone, but until they (the West) stirred the pot we didn't see this massive violence. First, it seems like you're denying Syrians (and other Arabs) agency by claiming these widespread protests (and there's evidence of thousands of people protesting around the country) are a result of western influence and Syrians weren't capable of rising up on their own. What's your basis for saying it was started by the West? And second, while any outcome is possible, saying things like "they don't even have a history of democracy" is borderline calling them uncivilized and incapable of democracy and it should be up to Syrians to decide who their ruler is, even if they end up being Islamist.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:40
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Hamelekim posted:Yet this was all started by the West in the first place. I don't see Assad's response to all of this as being justification to take him out. The guy is a dictator, of course he is going to use violence to stop a violent uprising. So Assad gets a pass for slaughtering peaceful protestors because he's a dictator and that's what a dictator does?!?! I'm sorry, that's morally reprehensible.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:40
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Hamelekim posted:Yet this was all started by the West in the first place. This is a demonstration of the unbelievably reductive, irritating, and I think racist tendency among far-leftists to dehumanize the actions of Arabs (both good and bad) by suggesting that they're being led by some supernatural mental force called "the West" in everything they do, instead of granting them the slightest bit of agency to entertain the possibility that farmers and day laborers might be going out for the last year to engage in protests against the Assad regime for reasons other than financing by Freedom House and the National Endowment for Democracy. What's even more amazing is that you people lack the self-awareness to understand that anti-democrats in the Middle East, including the Islamists you claim to hate, use the exact same reasoning to justify perpetual domination and disciplining of society. az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 19:43
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Hamelekim posted:Yet this was all started by the West in the first place. I don't see Assad's response to all of this as being justification to take him out. The guy is a dictator, of course he is going to use violence to stop a violent uprising. I don't believe the West's involvement has anything to do with democracy, freedom, blah blah blah, but I'd like to see some evidence from you that the West somehow has instigated an attack against the regime. I mean, good if they did, but you might have noticed that the uprising in Syria wasn't an isolated event.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:45
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az jan jananam posted:This is a demonstration of the unbelievably reductive, irritating, and I think racist tendency among far-leftists to dehumanize the actions of Arabs (both good and bad) by suggesting that they're being led by some supernatural mental force called "the West" in everything they do, instead of granting them the slightest bit of agency to entertain the possibility that farmers and day laborers might be going out for the last year to engage in protests against the Assad regime for reasons other than financing by Freedom House and the National Endowment for Democracy. Thank you, I meant to bring up his complete denial of agency to the Syrians but honestly I was too disgusted to think straight. There's a wonderful editorial by an Arab academic calling out people like Zizek for this sort of behavior but I can't remember where I saw it at the moment. Basically they're so obsessed with their own critiques of how The West™ meddles in other parts of the world that they can't imagine the actual inhabitants of those parts of the world might be able to act on their own initiative without being puppets of The West™. It's insulting and almost more racist that straight-up colonialism is. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Feb 6, 2012 |
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Feb 6, 2012 19:45
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az jan jananam posted:This is a demonstration of the unbelievably reductive, irritating, and I think racist tendency among far-leftists to dehumanize the actions of Arabs (both good and bad) by suggesting that they're being led by some supernatural mental force called "the West" in everything they do, instead of granting them the slightest bit of agency to entertain the possibility that farmers and day laborers might be going out for the last year to engage in protests against the Assad regime for reasons other than financing by Freedom House and the National Endowment for Democracy. What's even more amazing is that you people lack the self-awareness to understand that anti-democrats in the Middle East, including the Islamists you claim to hate, use the exact same reasoning to justify perpetual domination and disciplining of society. No, you see it's all about the oil, am I right?
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Feb 6, 2012 19:47
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Sivias posted:From my understanding Syria isn't a great source of oil or natural resources. It has a very important port to the Mediterranean sea through Latakia, but not much else, save for geographical territorial importance. Look at the American and British overthrow of the Iranian government in the 50's to install the shah. They turned the people against the leadership through covert violent actions. So it is possible to do this. However, I would agree with you that there is most likely a great deal of hatred of Assad among the general population. But they wouldn't normally express such discontent publicly without some feeling that they could actually overthrow him. That sort of feeling is likely coming from the militants, and maybe even from western sources encouraging people to rise up. What I wrote is in no way tinfoil hat crazy. It is logical thinking, and it is backed up by what General Wesley Clark said previously, both in his book, as well as in public speeches. That does not mean there is no discontent, but it is being fomented by the West in order to overthrow these governments without having to fully utilize Western military might.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:48
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http://kefteji.wordpress.com/2012/02/06/can-nepotism-bring-down-ghannouchi/ Some interesting discussion of here of the charges of nepotism against Tunisian PM Ghannouchi.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:50
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Hamelekim posted:Look at the American and British overthrow of the Iranian government in the 50's to install the shah. They turned the people against the leadership through covert violent actions. So it is possible to do this. And what does this have to do with the documented shootings of peaceful protestors by the Assad regime over the last year?
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Feb 6, 2012 19:50
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Hamelekim posted:Yet this was all started by the West in the first place. I don't see Assad's response to all of this as being justification to take him out. The guy is a dictator, of course he is going to use violence to stop a violent uprising. Where the gently caress are you getting that this is all some sort of Western conspiracy? This poo poo was annoying as all hell with Libya, and it's even more unfounded when it comes to Syria. I agree with az jan jananam- the idea that Arabs somehow are incapable of action unless spurred on by some insidious foreign plot is basically a page out of the same playbook that the dictators you claim to be against use.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:51
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az jan jananam posted:This is a demonstration of the unbelievably reductive, irritating, and I think racist tendency among far-leftists to dehumanize the actions of Arabs (both good and bad) by suggesting that they're being led by some supernatural mental force called "the West" in everything they do, instead of granting them the slightest bit of agency to entertain the possibility that farmers and day laborers might be going out for the last year to engage in protests against the Assad regime for reasons other than financing by Freedom House and the National Endowment for Democracy. What's even more amazing is that you people lack the self-awareness to understand that anti-democrats in the Middle East, including the Islamists you claim to hate, use the exact same reasoning to justify perpetual domination and disciplining of society. I think you're just being ignorant of what the West is really all about, and what they have been doing in the middle east for decades. Hell, the only reason why the US went into Afghanistan was because the Taliban wouldn't agree to allow them to place an oil pipeline through their country. They already had military plans to attack the country. I don't understand why you can't see what is going on in the middle east. You appear to be extremely myopic when it comes to the events in the middle east. The West doesn't want real democracy in the middle east. They want toady governments that will bow to western corporate interests, and if they don't, they get overthrown. The West supports these movements but in return they are guaranteed preferential access to natural resources, as well as preferential access for Western corporations.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:54
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Hamelekim posted:I think you're just being ignorant of what the West is really all about, and what they have been doing in the middle east for decades. Hell, the only reason why the US went into Afghanistan was because the Taliban wouldn't agree to allow them to place an oil pipeline through their country. They already had military plans to attack the country. I don't understand why you can't see what is going on in the middle east. You appear to be extremely myopic when it comes to the events in the middle east. The West doesn't want real democracy in the middle east. They want toady governments that will bow to western corporate interests, and if they don't, they get overthrown. It's a shame you can only ever seen greed as a motivation. A view of society that involves greed and altruism locked in constant struggle against one another is far closer to reality than AMERIKKKA U$A 100% greed.
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Feb 6, 2012 19:56
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