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evilweasel
Aug 24, 2002

Kynetx posted:

Something's been bugging me; why the rush to retina displays? I have a 15" Toughbook with a 1900x1200 display and the pixel density is too high. I find myself leaning in and squinting all the time. A 10" or 7" tablet would be miserable.

I don't know. From what I'm hearing about this generation of tablets, its sounds like the real focus needs to be beefing up processing power to eliminate things like input lag - but that's hard to advertise compared to displays, I suppose.

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zachol
Feb 13, 2009

Once per turn, you can Tribute 1 WATER monster you control (except this card) to Special Summon 1 WATER monster from your hand. The monster Special Summoned by this effect is destroyed if "Raging Eria" is removed from your side of the field.
The scaling on Android from a phone to a tablet size sucks. Lots of apps look like poo poo, with weird tiny icons scattered around the screen. Scaling is a necessity because various Android devices have different resolutions, but scaling an app designed for a phone up to tablet size isn't a "feature," or at least no more than the "iPad magnifying glass" is a feature.
This has nothing to do with the iPad, except to the extent that other people are saying "wow iPads suck they don't have scaling." I don't own or want or care about iPads, I love my Transformer and like Android in general, but holding scaling up as an awesome amazing feature that sets Android apart is bullshit.

e: This is just my opinion and maybe I happen to have only tried apps that don't scale well.

zachol fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Feb 7, 2012

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.

Kynetx posted:

Something's been bugging me; why the rush to retina displays? I have a 15" Toughbook with a 1900x1200 display and the pixel density is too high. I find myself leaning in and squinting all the time. A 10" or 7" tablet would be miserable.
Everything stays the same size, it's just higher resolution.

Crackbone
May 23, 2003

Vlaada is my co-pilot.

Kynetx posted:

Something's been bugging me; why the rush to retina displays? I have a 15" Toughbook with a 1900x1200 display and the pixel density is too high. I find myself leaning in and squinting all the time. A 10" or 7" tablet would be miserable.

Well, for Apple and Android tablets, it's the next logical feature upgrade. Screen res is an easy to market bullet point.

And yeah, working under the windows model, a 1900x1200 15" screen is going to be a real bitch because graphics scaling isn't really well implemented. Basically you get a bigger resolution and your poo poo gets smaller. The iphone 4 handled it really well, because it used the extra pixel density to render things in the same screen size as the old iphones, but with greater fidelity. Of course, they also have complete control over the devices so it's easier to do.

That's the rub with Android devices - because of it's open nature it's much harder to implement that kind of benefit.

zachol posted:

This has nothing to do with the iPad, except to the extent that other people are saying "wow iPads suck they don't have scaling." I don't own or want or care about iPads, I love my Transformer and like Android in general, but holding scaling up as an awesome amazing feature that sets Android apart is bullshit.

e: This is just my opinion and maybe I happen to have only tried apps that don't scale well.

This is it in a nutshell. Android's scaling features are a necessary evil, not a feature.

Crackbone fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Feb 7, 2012

butt dickus
Jul 7, 2007

top ten juiced up coaches
and the top ten juiced up players

Kynetx posted:

Something's been bugging me; why the rush to retina displays? I have a 15" Toughbook with a 1920x1200 display and the pixel density is too high. I find myself leaning in and squinting all the time. A 10" or 7" tablet would be miserable.

Android is supposed to know both the resolution and the pixel density, so a 1920x1200 desktop on a 10.1" screen should have the same scale as a 1280x800 desktop on the same size screen, but the image will be sharper because more pixels are used to draw the same resources.

skeevy achievements
Feb 25, 2008

by merry exmarx

Toady posted:



I have no problems with the smooth resistive scaling of this Android app.

Shorter Than Some
May 6, 2009

Crackbone posted:

The fact is that Apple devs essentially have 2 resolutions to worry about, while Android? poo poo, who knows, it's at least half a dozen and it's only going to get higher once the rumored "super-res" tablets start hitting. So it's inevitable that Android apps are going to be worse at phone/tablet portability. It's no shock that even major app makers go with the mindset of "eh, not offensively horrible, ship it".

Not to mention one of those resolutions being a being nice convenient multiple of the other, there's a reason why apple didn't just incrementally increase the resolution on it's iPhones.

graph
Nov 22, 2006

aaag peanuts

Codiusprime posted:

So glad we have such a ruthless and efficient iPad defense force in this thread. Gots to keep those uppity Android users in line, God forbid they enjoy the product.

Sounds like you're very upset about something.

Ciabatta
Aug 20, 2008

by Y Kant Ozma Post
You should boot Android on your I-Pads.

Rastor
Jun 2, 2001

Crackbone posted:

The fact is that Apple devs essentially have 2 resolutions to worry about, while Android? poo poo, who knows, it's at least half a dozen and it's only going to get higher once the rumored "super-res" tablets start hitting. So it's inevitable that Android apps are going to be worse at phone/tablet portability. It's no shock that even major app makers go with the mindset of "eh, not offensively horrible, ship it".
iPhone, iPhone 4, iPad, soon iPad 3 if it has a doubled resolution as rumored. That's 4 resolutions to worry about. Who knows how many there will be another 2 years down the road. Meanwhile Android went for a resolution-independent approach right from the beginning and now years down the road that's starting to look pretty smart. Look at the Galaxy Nexus, cranked the resolution crazy high but there were hardly any apps that didn't work great immediately.

It's inevitable that Android apps are going to be better at phone/tablet portability.

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.

Rastor posted:

iPhone, iPhone 4, iPad, soon iPad 3 if it has a doubled resolution as rumored. That's 4 resolutions to worry about. Who knows how many there will be another 2 years down the road.

Retina display is simply twice the resolution of non retina. You just have to include artwork for both resolutions.

Ipad3 should be the same thing, so ipad developers just need to include high dpi graphics.

You dont have to actually develop for 4 different resolutions.

butt dickus
Jul 7, 2007

top ten juiced up coaches
and the top ten juiced up players

Rastor posted:

iPhone, iPhone 4, iPad, soon iPad 3 if it has a doubled resolution as rumored. That's 4 resolutions to worry about.

There's really only two resolutions as far as developers are concerned. 320x480 for phones and 1024x768 for pads. The higher-resolution devices abstract away the extra pixels. They kind of worked themselves into a corner with 1024x768 because there's not nice multipliers for it, but they're making it work.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

Rastor posted:

iPhone, iPhone 4, iPad, soon iPad 3 if it has a doubled resolution as rumored. That's 4 resolutions to worry about.
Only 2 aspect ratios and two device sizes though so even if the resolution is "wrong" and it has to use scaling the layout and size of the physical controls doesn't change. In Android you have four generalized resolutions and four generalized densities and even then the screen aspect ratio might be 16:9 or 16:10 which makes it a lot more challenging.

Rastor
Jun 2, 2001

And if you're happy with an OS that only supports 2 resolutions and 2 more hiDPI versions of those resolutions then I'm happy you're happy. Maybe you could go discuss how happy you are in the appropriate thread?

This is the Android tablet thread. Android isn't limited to only 2 (+2) resolutions; it scales from tiny 2" QVGA screens all the way to giant Television displays.

Endless Mike
Aug 13, 2003



Rastor posted:

iPhone, iPhone 4, iPad, soon iPad 3 if it has a doubled resolution as rumored. That's 4 resolutions to worry about. Who knows how many there will be another 2 years down the road. Meanwhile Android went for a resolution-independent approach right from the beginning and now years down the road that's starting to look pretty smart. Look at the Galaxy Nexus, cranked the resolution crazy high but there were hardly any apps that didn't work great immediately.

It's inevitable that Android apps are going to be better at phone/tablet portability.
You're missing a pretty important piece of the puzzle though. Resolution and dpi aren't the only factors in usability. A tablet may be using the same OS as a phone, but they're still fundamentally different devices. You don't interact with them the same way (or, if you are, you are either using a very large phone or a very small tablet). I can't pretend to know how Android tablet apps work, but between an iPhone and iPad, the versions are typically designed differently to take advantage of the differences in the devices. Making a list view show more stuff on a tablet is fine (and certainly better than just magnifying a phone app), but it's kind of missing the point of using a tablet.

Insurrectum
Nov 1, 2005

Kynetx posted:

Something's been bugging me; why the rush to retina displays? I have a 15" Toughbook with a 1900x1200 display and the pixel density is too high. I find myself leaning in and squinting all the time. A 10" or 7" tablet would be miserable.

The difference is pretty stark when you're using the tablet to surf the web, especially on a 7" device. When you encounter a website specifically designed for a much larger resolution, the text is aliased and hard to read without zooming in. With a retina screen, that aliasing goes away, and you don't necessarily have to zoom in everywhere just to read what it says. And at normal zoom levels, I've just noticed it's just much easier on the eyes. Reading on my Kindle Fire is great when a website is designed for mobile, but for something like these forums it can be a pain, especially if someone had posted a large picture which stretches out the divs.

qirex
Feb 15, 2001

Rastor posted:

This is the Android tablet thread. Android isn't limited to only 2 (+2) resolutions; it scales from tiny 2" QVGA screens all the way to giant Television displays.
That puts all the onus for that scaling on individual developers which leads to a shitload more work. I've worked on multiple Android apps and the situation as it is now is symptomatic of an "open" system. I think everyone would benefit if Google tried to exert a little more leadership in these things [either in the form of better dev tools or stronger standards] but they probably won't.

My Linux Rig
Mar 27, 2010
Probation
Can't post for 6 years!

Rastor posted:

And if you're happy with an OS that only supports 2 resolutions and 2 more hiDPI versions of those resolutions then I'm happy you're happy. Maybe you could go discuss how happy you are in the appropriate thread?

This is the Android tablet thread. Android isn't limited to only 2 (+2) resolutions; it scales from tiny 2" QVGA screens all the way to giant Television displays.

You know, this thread doesn't need to be limited to just praising android tablets. You realize you can critique them too, right?

butt dickus
Jul 7, 2007

top ten juiced up coaches
and the top ten juiced up players

Endless Mike posted:

I can't pretend to know how Android tablet apps work, but between an iPhone and iPad, the versions are typically designed differently to take advantage of the differences in the devices. Making a list view show more stuff on a tablet is fine (and certainly better than just magnifying a phone app), but it's kind of missing the point of using a tablet.

If you look at the development page linked earlier, Android applications are meant to pretty much work the same way, but they're supposed to know how to display based on what the device reports in terms of resolution and density. Instead of making separate applications for phones and tablets, you just make one that has the components for both. In theory, this should be better for users, but harder for developers. You also have to have developers that actually care about doing this.

Codiusprime
Mar 17, 2006

My Linux Rig posted:

You know, this thread doesn't need to be limited to just praising android tablets. You realize you can critique them too, right?

There is a difference between critiquing them, which we do often, and a page long derail about iPad resolutions and why they are yet another reason that the iPad is better than Android. The fact that you think it would just be an Android tablet circle jerk without the routine iPad is great derail says more about you and less about the thread.

Vagrancy
Oct 15, 2005
Master of procrastination

Crackbone posted:

That's the rub with Android devices - because of it's open nature it's much harder to implement that kind of benefit.

Flexible tools to manage density independence have actually been there since the beginning of Android. As for UI design, Android layouts follow the flexible box model, so in some cases it's actually easier than crafting layouts on iOS.

The problem isn't difficulty, it's payoff. The difference in the economics between the App Store and Android Market is such that for many companies it's a better use of time to direct all available effort towards the App store, since if an app breaks the top 100 the total payoff will likely exceed a comparable Android placement many times over.

There's kind of a chicken-egg problem. Developers won't bother investing time in Tablet optimized layouts if there's no perceived market for it, and they'll be no market for Android tablets if there's no showcased software (which is exacerbated by Google's stance that there should be no concrete division between Phone/Tablet apps). What needs to happen is for Google to create a couple of house apps/features which make sense for a Tablet and are sufficiently differentiated/break away from the iPad whilst at the same time being desirable enough that there'd actually be significant standalone demand for it regardless of 3rd party apps.

And even if they do pull all that off with the rumored 7 inch Nexus tablet, there's still the issue of marketing. This is the same Google who just last week hap-hazardously convinced the entire internet that they'd dropped consumer support for their flagship phone in the US after all.

quote:

This is it in a nutshell. Android's scaling features are a necessary evil, not a feature.

I'd say it's a feature, but it's not some panacea where a dev can just create one xml layout and call it a day. Android apps "scale" on phones too and that works out much more seamlessly because dev effort is focused there. The OS constructs the app on the fly based on the best of what's provided inside the APK. The scaling only works as well as the dev has made it work. Add Google not wanting to curate the Market there you go.

qirex posted:

In Android you have four generalized resolutions and four generalized densities and even then the screen aspect ratio might be 16:9 or 16:10 which makes it a lot more challenging.

It's only more challenging if you approach it from the mindset of building a native app for iOS. It's really more akin to building a "native website".

Vagrancy fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Feb 7, 2012

butt dickus
Jul 7, 2007

top ten juiced up coaches
and the top ten juiced up players

Vagrancy posted:

It's really more akin to building a "native website".

Web developers have been dealing with this poo poo for years. Android also makes a few things easier than web developers. You can't count on someone having their browser any particular size, or even keeping it that size and browsers also behave differently from one another. Android devices have a relatively small set of resolutions/rations and don't magically change screen size while programs are running. Android should also render things the same regardless of device. Pixel densities do vary, but this is largely handled internally, so I'd consider it a non-issue.

I'm sure it's easier only having to develop for two resolutions/ratios, but making dynamic/fluid layouts is something people have been doing long before Android.

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.

Rastor posted:

Maybe you could go discuss how happy you are in the appropriate thread?


:staredog: Im correcting the poor information that YOU brought up

Rastor
Jun 2, 2001

Yes thank you for yet another enlightening explanation of why the iPad is fantastic, that's exactly what the Android Tablet Thread needed.

I look forward to tomorrow's discussion of why the iPad is great here in the Android Tablet Thread.

Codiusprime
Mar 17, 2006

Don Lapre posted:

:staredog: Im correcting the poor information that YOU brought up

O lordy, what would we do without you O keeper of the iOS information?

Surely we would be in a wasteland of misinformation awash with the bodily fluids of Android fanboys.

butt dickus
Jul 7, 2007

top ten juiced up coaches
and the top ten juiced up players

Codiusprime posted:

O lordy, what would we do without you O keeper of the iOS information?

If you look at his posts in this thread, he doesn't mention Apple unless quoting a post that does. His other posts are largely about failings of specific Android products, but that belongs in this thread, doesn't it?

Codiusprime
Mar 17, 2006
I think my issue stems more from the fact that every time the iPad is brought up it turns into a two page derail about the iPad, what thread its being talked about in, etc.

The dude that started this was an idiot, is it possible to move on and try to ignore the idiot? We don't have much luck ignoring the YOSPOS idiots I know but a boy can dream.

eric
Apr 27, 2004
Lipstick Apathy
If it upsets you so much perhaps you should get out?

Maker Of Shoes
Sep 4, 2006

AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!
Or not reply to posts you don't like? I'm a ridiculous Android owner that loves to tinker with average-poor products but you people are loving insufferable. Post more about Android devices and less about comparisons.

Codiusprime
Mar 17, 2006
^^^^^^
I try but I know I ain't perfect. Also haven't you heard, if we don't constantly compare Android Tablets to the iPad the thread would be boring and also a circle jerk apparently.

eric posted:

If it upsets you so much perhaps you should get out?

How do you guys get that it upsets me? I'm not the one making wall of texts posts with links defending my mobile OS of choice. Not sure how preferring the thread stay unlocked morphs into be upset/very upset.

Rastor
Jun 2, 2001

Are we now having a derail about derails?

Codiusprime
Mar 17, 2006

Rastor posted:

Are we now having a derail about derails?

The best derail possible.

I'll try to get it back on track.

I've had my Tab Plus for a few days now and I'm liking it very much. My only little complaint is the screen, I kind of wish it was a slightly higher resolution. Other than that it's nice. Though going back to HC after ICS is a little of a shock, though 3.2 seems pretty dang solid so far.

Star War Sex Parrot
Oct 2, 2003

Codiusprime posted:

I think my issue stems more from the fact that every time the iPad is brought up it turns into a two page derail about the iPad, what thread its being talked about in, etc.

The dude that started this was an idiot, is it possible to move on and try to ignore the idiot? We don't have much luck ignoring the YOSPOS idiots I know but a boy can dream.
I think most were merely responding to Gorilla Salsa's positive impressions of an Android tablet that boiled down to:
  • I hate Apple :confused:
  • non-native tablet apps look bad. Well no poo poo but that's almost a non-issue these days, and neither iOS' or Android's scaling solution is ideal.
  • I love Android gaming, and I will demonstrate that by showing a mediocre game that's also on iOS.
Those are hardly spectacular selling points. That's just being disingenuous to prospective shoppers because then misinformed opinions are just getting echo-chambered. This isn't the iPad thread, but it's also not the "regurgitate poo poo I read on XDA about Android supremacy 18 months ago" thread. Consumers should be as educated as possible before making a purchase or you end up with a mountain of devices on SA-Mart a month later. See: Archos, Galaxy Tab 7, G-Tablet, TouchPad, etc.

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.

Codiusprime posted:

We don't have much luck ignoring the YOSPOS idiots I know but a boy can dream.

YOSPOS didn't start this, it was Gorilla Salsa amazing ios rant out of loving nowhere.

Rastor
Jun 2, 2001

Sure, let's ignore YOSPOS invasion derail #597.

One thing I love about ICS is the folders. Though I find I only use one homescreen now...

Maker Of Shoes
Sep 4, 2006

AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!
1) I used to an A500. I sold it because the dev community was utter poo poo. Has it improved? Are there some decent 3.2 ROM's or heck, an ICS port yet?

2) As Q2 rolls up and the plethora of CES announced devices start to trickle out, we will be faced with price drops on all kinds of current hardware. Does anybody have any bets on what will be the best current gen device getting EOL'ed that will be worth the cost of entry a couple of months from now?

Codiusprime
Mar 17, 2006
NVM Android rulezzzz

Rastor
Jun 2, 2001

The thing about the previous gen is they all ran on Tegra 2 chips, which have several failings. And they tended to be thick and heavy to boot. I think I'd recommend prospective customers keep saving rather than spring for one of those.

Maker Of Shoes
Sep 4, 2006

AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!

Codiusprime posted:

I've had my Tab Plus for a few days now and I'm liking it very much. My only little complaint is the screen, I kind of wish it was a slightly higher resolution. Other than that it's nice. Though going back to HC after ICS is a little of a shock, though 3.2 seems pretty dang solid so far.

Have you seen any of the Acer A50x tablets? The resolution on my old 500 was pretty terrible but I have nothing to compare it against so I'm not sure if that's the norm or not.

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Cocoa Crispies
Jul 20, 2001

Vehicular Manslaughter!

Pillbug

Rastor posted:

One thing I love about ICS is the folders. Though I find I only use one homescreen now...

Doesn't 2.3 have those too? I used them on my HTC Vivid which is pretty new, and also on un-named competitor phone that's had them since 2010.

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