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balancedbias
May 2, 2009
$$$$$$$$$

To go back to the Thhroatwarbler metaphor to describe the tension in this thread:

"I want to know more about buying a good steak dinner from a restaurant."

"Well, other options such as buying from the store and cooking it yourself, or getting a burger off the dollar menu, are better choices because they ultimately cost less."

"But, I LIKE going to a restaurant for steak!"

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Daeus
Nov 17, 2001

<snip>

Daeus fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Feb 5, 2012

balancedbias
May 2, 2009
$$$$$$$$$

Daeus posted:

And you also apparently missed the point that the majority of my post was comparing buying new vs lease, or as you put it, comparing steak to steak. I'll go back and edit that out if it distracts you too much from the main point.

Dude...I'm on your side :cry:

Daeus
Nov 17, 2001

Oooops, sorry about that. Seemed like you were trying to say the only option I offered was hamburger.

El Kabong
Apr 14, 2004
-$10

Daeus posted:


In general...
1) From a purely financial point of view, buying a used car is the best deal because you avoid paying the initial massive depreciation.

2) If you want a new car and have good enough credit qualify for a 0% loan, it is cheaper than leasing in almost all scenarios. This is based on looking at NPV for a variety of promotions across multiple different websites.

3) If your best loan rate you can get is close to that of a lease, it is more of wash as to which is better in the end and will come down to small things such as fees, current incentives, and sheer luck about how the car depreciates.

1) Yes

2) Except that you have to usually downgrade the quality of car you are driving since loan payments will eat more from your quality of life than lease paments.

3) I don't know. Want to crunch numbers for a more realistic scenario? Assume we qualify for both offers.

Say a 2012 Elantra based on these details I pulled from their website:

quote:

Buy
Low APR
Special Low APR rates on the 2012 Elantra as low as 1.9% for up to 36 months, 2.9% for up to 48 months, 3.9% for up to 60 months, 4.9% for up to 72 months. Advertised rates are subject to dealer negotiation. Actual contracted APR may vary. Subject to Hyundai Motor Finance credit guidelines. Some customers will not qualify. Rates and terms subject to change without notice.

1.9% APR includes 36 monthly payments of $28.60 per $1000 borrowed. 2.9% APR includes 48 monthly payments of $22.09 per $1000 borrowed. 3.9% APR includes 60 monthly payments of $18.37 per $1000 borrowed. 4.9% APR includes 72 monthly payments of $16.06 per $1000 borrowed. See participating dealer for details.

Lease Offer
Lease a 2012 Hyundai Elantra GLS A/T for $179/month for 36 months, $1,999 due at lease signing ($1,820 customer cash down plus $179 for 1st month payment).

MSRP of $18,205.00 for 2012 Elantra (model #45412F45/45412F4P) including freight. Lease payment based on capitalized cost of $16,901.43. No security deposit required. Tax, license, title, fees, options and insurance extra. Monthly payments include $595 acquisition fee. Elantra closed-end lease offered through Hyundai Motor Finance (HMF).

I still don't think it's a stretch to say the leasing info in the OP is unhelpful and posits a scenario that presents leasing in the worst possible light.

Edit: the interest rate on the lease is 3.6%

El Kabong fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Feb 5, 2012

balancedbias
May 2, 2009
$$$$$$$$$

Am I missing something or is the main issue that people are trying to justify why leasing a car repeatedly costs more over a person's lifetime than if they bought a car outright? I wasn't even aware that this was a debatable thing. If you want to lease because it's a simpler thing to do, go ahead, but there's no need to make it sound like it's a financial decision other than how you like to rent nice things over and over again. Hell, Rent-A-Center can do it for furniture and TVs, too!

The situation where leasing beats buying every time is a known situation where you need a car for the length of the lease and you will not need a car after that. Anything else and you're playing mental gymnastics.

Daeus
Nov 17, 2001

El Kabong posted:

2) Except that you have to usually downgrade the quality of car you are driving since loan payments will eat more from your quality of life than lease paments.

3) I don't know. Want to crunch numbers for a more realistic scenario? Assume we qualify for both offers.

Say a 2012 Elantra based on these details I pulled from their website:

I still don't think it's a stretch to say the leasing info in the OP is unhelpful and posits a scenario that presents leasing in the worst possible light.

2) So you argument is the difference in the higher loan payment versus lower lease payment is so great that it will impact your ability to go with the loan even if it is the better deal? Think about what your saying in slightly different words "I want to get a lease even though it is more expensive in the long run, so I can free up money now that I need to spend to maintain my quality of life". Quite frankly this just means you can't afford the lease. When I say that I don't mean that you won't be able to get a lease (plenty of car salesmen will be happy to help you), just that if you're in a financial position where if that little difference is going to hurt your quality of life you shouldn't be spending that much on a car.

Whether leasing or buying, your should focus on the price of the car and not the monthly payments. This lets you look at the total cost over time (and hopefully see why buying is a better deal). If instead you focus on the monthly payments (one reason leases are so attractive to some people) you'll end up paying more in the long run.

I don't know your situation - are you looking you get a car soon? Hopefully you find this helpful and at the very least you'll be more educated when you walk into the dealership.

3) Not enough information on that website, it's missing a couple key pieces of information namely the residual value and money factor. Additionally while taxes and title should be similar to purchasing, it says that it doesn't include any fees which can be significant both at the start and end of the lease.

You're probably right about the OP. Maybe we should add more about car financing and leasing (paging CornHolio) rather than have a single quote from a financial guy. Even if leasing is almost always more expensive, we should at least have a better explanation of why.

El Kabong
Apr 14, 2004
-$10
2) I was just saying it's a consideration, not a very important one at that, so just scratch it.

The residual value is 62% or $11,284 and the money factor is .00150 or 3.6%. I made an (easy to miss) edit you might have overlooked at the end of the post. I've verified this with the dealer. I don't know about the fees, but if we leave them out on both maybe the difference will be marginal. Thanks for the help.

balanacedbias posted:

The situation where leasing beats buying every time is a known situation where you need a car for the length of the lease and you will not need a car after that.

That's very close to my situation.

El Kabong fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Feb 5, 2012

Daeus
Nov 17, 2001



I calculated the value of the car at the end if you bought it at $10,500 because this is in line with average of approximately 40% depreciation over the first three years (and it's a little less than the residual which makes sense). Since the lease required a down payment, I made the buy scenario with the same down payment to keep things as similar as possible. I used a discount rate of 3% (what money can do that isn't tied up in your car).

Leasing NPV is approximately 17-18% more expensive than buying. Since you're under warranty either way, that is a non-factor. One thing to note is it seems Hyundai leases usually have a $400 disposition fee not included and paid at the end, although I didn't include this in the model.

Is the lease worth it? I'd say really what it comes down to is if you don't want to have to deal with the hassle of selling the car if you buy. Really to me that is what a lease is about. You are basically paying more for the convenience factor.

CornHolio
May 20, 2001

Toilet Rascal

Daeus posted:



Is the lease worth it? I'd say really what it comes down to is if you don't want to have to deal with the hassle of selling the car if you buy. Really to me that is what a lease is about. You are basically paying more for the convenience factor.

Strictly in financial terms, though, you never want to pay more for convenience.

I think a good argument may be considering the uncertainty of the used car market and the scenario where the car doesn't sell unless you list it for a ridiculously low price, but I think the risk factor for that scenario is low enough that it isn't something that should prejudice somebody one way or the other.

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre
Leasing seems like insurance. It reduces risk at the cost of a premium.

El Kabong
Apr 14, 2004
-$10

Daeus posted:



I calculated the value of the car...

Thanks for doing that. I actually leased a 2012 Elantra today and got it for $134 month/36 months with 2k down and a purchase price of $300 above dealer cost or $1300 below average market price according to truecar.com. The residual is a little high, but that's negotiable when the time comes. I wanted to ask them what it would have cost to buy it but I figured I wouldn't get a straight answer and four hours at the dealership was long enough. Like I said earlier, it makes more sense given my circumstances to lease it, but thanks again for the info.

OctaviusBeaver
Apr 30, 2009

Say what now?
I have a 2001 Toyota Celica w/ about 110,000 miles on it that I am thinking about selling. I paid $5200 for it but I see ones in my area with more miles on them on Craigslist and they are asking $7,000 to $9,000 for them, though if I could get ~$6000 I would be happy. I have been considering selling it and paying cash for a new Focus or Corolla to use as a daily driver for, at bare minimum, the next 10 years, but I have some questions.

1: I think I saw truecar.com recommended in this thread, is that a good guide for what I should be paying for a new car? I assume I would pay sales tax on top of the price they list, but are there any other hidden fees I should look out for? Is it reasonable to expect to be out the door with a new Corolla for ~$17,000?

2: What's the deal with American cars? I've heard that the Focus is pretty drat good these days, but I am really worried because all of the used American cars I have owned (usually mid-late 90s models) have been complete poo poo that fell apart. Have they really improved? Can you trust these to perform for 150,000+ miles like the Toyotas/Hondas?

3: Does the dealer pay at all whether or not you pay cash? Should I expect a better deal or do they not care?

4: Anyone have some other cheap cars to recommend besides the Corolla or the Focus? I am looking for something affordable that gets good gas mileage and will last a long time.

CornHolio
May 20, 2001

Toilet Rascal
I'll just answer your third question for now, I'll leave the rest to other people or myself later when I have time, if nobody else replies.

quote:

3: Does the dealer pay at all whether or not you pay cash? Should I expect a better deal or do they not care?

Don't mention how you're paying until the very end. Don't lie, but if they ask if you're planning on financing just give a noncommital "maybe" or "we'll see." Make it clear that you don't want to talk about paying until you're ready, and then after you've settled on a price, whip out the Benjamins.

Reason being, if they think you're going to be financing, they may give you a better deal with the hope of making up some of the price with the interest. They may get upset when you whip out cash, but if they try to raise the price even a small amount, be prepared to walk.

It could waste some of your time, but chances are they'll still going to (grudgingly) make the sale.

LorneReams
Jun 27, 2003
I'm bizarre
I would recommend not even loving around. Grab the invoice TruPrice or whatever it's called from edmunds, call 5 different dealers and pick the one that will give you that price (or close to it) out the door. Make sure you say OUT THE DOOR. Then when you get there, understand you are going to be paying for tax and registration fees (know this ahead of time so you don't get hosed), and then refuse to pay any other bullshit fee that they love to put on the P&S agreement. Like physically cross them off (VIN etching, doc fees, etc.). They make it look like you can't do this, but you can. If they give any resistance, just leave, someone else will give you what you want.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





OctaviusBeaver posted:

1: I think I saw truecar.com recommended in this thread, is that a good guide for what I should be paying for a new car? I assume I would pay sales tax on top of the price they list, but are there any other hidden fees I should look out for? Is it reasonable to expect to be out the door with a new Corolla for ~$17,000?

It does seem like a pretty solid resource. Expect to pay sales tax, license and registration, maybe 'destination' charge (not sure if Truecar's price includes that) and I would bet most dealers try to slap their doc fee on top of it too.

quote:

2: What's the deal with American cars? I've heard that the Focus is pretty drat good these days, but I am really worried because all of the used American cars I have owned (usually mid-late 90s models) have been complete poo poo that fell apart. Have they really improved? Can you trust these to perform for 150,000+ miles like the Toyotas/Hondas?

Up through most of the '00s, American car companies believed that a small car should be a cheap lovely car. Somewhere in the past few years they all finally got the memo that people buying a small car don't necessarily want a piece of poo poo. Nearly anything on the market today that isn't a Chrysler (until the Dart comes out, maybe) or a Mitsubishi is solidly competitive in some form or another.

This isn't 1970 or 1990; there really aren't any cars on the market these days that will fall apart in 100k or less.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert

OctaviusBeaver posted:

3: Does the dealer pay at all whether or not you pay cash? Should I expect a better deal or do they not care?

4: Anyone have some other cheap cars to recommend besides the Corolla or the Focus? I am looking for something affordable that gets good gas mileage and will last a long time.

To answer 3:

A dealer actually makes quite a bit of money on the finance side of a transaction. Interest rate markup, a small payment for placing the loan with a lender, and the markup on GAP Insurance and the Extended Warranty are significant as well. At some dealers you can negotiate a better price on the car if they think they can make some money off of you in the finance department.

To answer 4: Most of the cars in the compact market are awesome at what they do. Find the one you like. The Corolla is probably my top recommendation for a cheap 'driving appliance'. Hyundai's Accent and Elantra are very nice cars and have one of the best warranties in the business.

Honestly any new car that you buy today will last 200,000 miles if you follow the maintenance schedule. Follow the maintenance schedule, take care of issues as they arise and the car will last a really long time.

Daeus
Nov 17, 2001

El Kabong posted:

Thanks for doing that. I actually leased a 2012 Elantra today and got it for $134 month/36 months with 2k down and a purchase price of $300 above dealer cost or $1300 below average market price according to truecar.com. The residual is a little high, but that's negotiable when the time comes. I wanted to ask them what it would have cost to buy it but I figured I wouldn't get a straight answer and four hours at the dealership was long enough. Like I said earlier, it makes more sense given my circumstances to lease it, but thanks again for the info.

Cool, sounds like you got a pretty good deal. What also should be said is if you really understand how leasing and buying works and focus on the total price as opposed to monthly payments you'll probably come out ahead either way compared to an uneducated buyer.

Daeus fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 7, 2012

Thwomp
Apr 10, 2003

BA-DUHHH

Grimey Drawer

OctaviusBeaver posted:

2: What's the deal with American cars? I've heard that the Focus is pretty drat good these days, but I am really worried because all of the used American cars I have owned (usually mid-late 90s models) have been complete poo poo that fell apart. Have they really improved? Can you trust these to perform for 150,000+ miles like the Toyotas/Hondas?

4: Anyone have some other cheap cars to recommend besides the Corolla or the Focus? I am looking for something affordable that gets good gas mileage and will last a long time.

2: American cars began an upswing in quality around 2006-7 and are now almost completely filled with non-terrible lineups. GM was a major abuser until about 2008 when they redesigned the Malibu. Since then, they phased out poo poo cars like the HHR, Cobalt, and Aveo and replaced them with really nice models (Cruze and Sonic).

Ford started turning things around before GM and has a nice lineup if you like slightly sportier stuff. The new Focus is really nice and so is the Fiesta (if you like small cars but don't value versatility). Be sure you test/learn about the Sync/Touch stuff if you go this route. Some people hate it, others love it.

Chrysler's still playing catch up but will finally have something again in the compact segment with the Dart (which looks loving sharp) this summer (the Caliber). Most of their lineup is due for major revisions in the next few years but the current stuff has seen recent significant refreshes. But nothing is really in your current market yet from them.


4: Other cheap stuff include Scion xD (if you want a Corolla hatch), the aforementioned Hyundai Elantra is almost always an excellent value, and you may want to look at Kia for either a Soul or Forte (the latter being in need of a refresh but it's quality is still up there with the rest of Kia).

sbyers77
Jan 9, 2004

El Kabong posted:

Thanks for doing that. I actually leased a 2012 Elantra today and got it for $134 month/36 months with 2k down and a purchase price of $300 above dealer cost or $1300 below average market price according to truecar.com. The residual is a little high, but that's negotiable when the time comes. I wanted to ask them what it would have cost to buy it but I figured I wouldn't get a straight answer and four hours at the dealership was long enough. Like I said earlier, it makes more sense given my circumstances to lease it, but thanks again for the info.

How much is the residual, if you don't mind me asking?

I haven't completely disregarded leasing as an option for me. As a young professional early in their career, it seems to me like leasing gets me into a new car with a low monthly payment now and I can worry about higher payments of buying it in three years when I am hopefully making more money.

But maybe I am thinking too much like the government by planning my present spending today based on projected future income, so please tell me my thinking is dumb as poo poo.

El Kabong
Apr 14, 2004
-$10
For any new Elantra with a 36 month lease it's 62% of the purchase price. If your credit is over 749 you can get their top tier leasing offer and I believe they are nearing the end of their quarter, so if they have a lot of Elantras on the lot they should be motivated to make you a deal.

Make sure you factor in the cost of insurance. Hyundai requires 100k/300k liability, 50k personal property, collision and comprehensive with a maximum deductible of 1k each.

Leperflesh
May 17, 2007

Thwomp posted:

Chrysler's still playing catch up but will finally have something again in the compact segment with the Dart (which looks loving sharp) this summer (the Caliber). Most of their lineup is due for major revisions in the next few years but the current stuff has seen recent significant refreshes. But nothing is really in your current market yet from them.

Fiat 500! Starting at $15,500 MSRP for a POP. Okay Fiat isn't exactly Chrysler, but it's where you go to get one.

But yeah, actual Chrysler cars have been crap and everyone's kinda looking forward to that stopping any day now. Some would say they have several decent models but I don't think they're quite at the point where I can recommend the brand, compared to Ford/GM.

OctaviusBeaver
Apr 30, 2009

Say what now?

CornHolio posted:

Don't mention how you're paying until the very end. Don't lie, but if they ask if you're planning on financing just give a noncommital "maybe" or "we'll see." Make it clear that you don't want to talk about paying until you're ready, and then after you've settled on a price, whip out the Benjamins.

Reason being, if they think you're going to be financing, they may give you a better deal with the hope of making up some of the price with the interest. They may get upset when you whip out cash, but if they try to raise the price even a small amount, be prepared to walk.

It could waste some of your time, but chances are they'll still going to (grudgingly) make the sale.

I'll do that, thanks.

LorneReams posted:

I would recommend not even loving around. Grab the invoice TruPrice or whatever it's called from edmunds, call 5 different dealers and pick the one that will give you that price (or close to it) out the door. Make sure you say OUT THE DOOR. Then when you get there, understand you are going to be paying for tax and registration fees (know this ahead of time so you don't get hosed), and then refuse to pay any other bullshit fee that they love to put on the P&S agreement. Like physically cross them off (VIN etching, doc fees, etc.). They make it look like you can't do this, but you can. If they give any resistance, just leave, someone else will give you what you want.

Well first I want to test drive a few, but I'll do this once I've decided and I'm ready to buy.


Thwomp posted:

2: American cars began an upswing in quality around 2006-7 and are now almost completely filled with non-terrible lineups. GM was a major abuser until about 2008 when they redesigned the Malibu. Since then, they phased out poo poo cars like the HHR, Cobalt, and Aveo and replaced them with really nice models (Cruze and Sonic).

Ford started turning things around before GM and has a nice lineup if you like slightly sportier stuff. The new Focus is really nice and so is the Fiesta (if you like small cars but don't value versatility). Be sure you test/learn about the Sync/Touch stuff if you go this route. Some people hate it, others love it.

Chrysler's still playing catch up but will finally have something again in the compact segment with the Dart (which looks loving sharp) this summer (the Caliber). Most of their lineup is due for major revisions in the next few years but the current stuff has seen recent significant refreshes. But nothing is really in your current market yet from them.


4: Other cheap stuff include Scion xD (if you want a Corolla hatch), the aforementioned Hyundai Elantra is almost always an excellent value, and you may want to look at Kia for either a Soul or Forte (the latter being in need of a refresh but it's quality is still up there with the rest of Kia).

So how do they know the reliability of the American brands improved if it started in 2005-06? It seems like you would have to wait until they have been on the roads for a decade or so before you can really tell if they are built to last. Do they do actual road tests where they drive them that far? I'm fairly sold on the Fords being good, but I think I'll steer clear of GM for now.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I am totally new at this and I definitely needed the help.

Thwomp
Apr 10, 2003

BA-DUHHH

Grimey Drawer
Typically, most publications/reviewers can get looks at how cars are made or re-designed and gauge reliability on that. Obviously, stuff happens throughout the life of a car and you can't always predict if a model will have defects. Normally, it's just a minor thing and not a Pinto/Toyota-brakes level thing.

Reliability is more of a manufacturer-wide thing (through best practices, etc) though I find it more of a plant-wide thing.

Around 2006, most American automakers started realizing quality products = reliable machines (with a side bonus of people actually wanting to buy your products). So they began re-designing vehicles with that in mind (using better materials and better production methods).

For example: the 2008 Malibu re-design marked GM's first big push to quality. It's generally regarded as a much better car than the previous generation with higher initial quality and most 3 year reliability surveys showing it faring better against the previous Malibu as well.

That said, you're right that it'll take a long time for attitudes towards American cars to really turn around. New stuff like the Focus, upcoming Fusion, Sonic, and Dart should help that along. I want to say former GM exec Bob Lutz said that it takes many years/several model generations to build up make/model reputation but only a couple years to destroy it (see: where the Civic is right now).

LifelongFan
Dec 25, 2005

by Y Kant Ozma Post
I drive rental cars a lot for work, which tend to be newer-model American cars. After sitting in a ton of models for many long road-trips, the Fords (especially the Fusion and Focus) are, IMO, leagues better than the GM/Chryslers right now. I really like the Fusion and would recommend it to anyone. It's also getting an update for the 2013 model year, so hopefully it'll be an improvement on an already good car.

LifelongFan fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 9, 2012

Binary
May 21, 2004
My 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse GTS is having transmission issues. Assuming the worst a new transmission will probably cost $2000-$4000 with labor I'm sure. The car has 167K miles on it and is paid off. Is it worth it to replace the transmission or to use the money for a new car? There's a dealership here with a 2002 Toyota Celica with 104K miles for $8500 that caught my eye. Is dumping the Eclipse for the Toyota a better call? I can pay cash for it, though it will come out of my emergency fund, so no financing will be involved.

Don Lapre
Mar 28, 2001

If you're having problems you're either holding the phone wrong or you have tiny girl hands.

Binary posted:

My 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse GTS is having transmission issues. Assuming the worst a new transmission will probably cost $2000-$4000 with labor I'm sure. The car has 167K miles on it and is paid off. Is it worth it to replace the transmission or to use the money for a new car? There's a dealership here with a 2002 Toyota Celica with 104K miles for $8500 that caught my eye. Is dumping the Eclipse for the Toyota a better call? I can pay cash for it, though it will come out of my emergency fund, so no financing will be involved.

If the rest of the car is in perfect shape, you like the car, and it would be more than the cost of repair to replace it with a similiar car, i would repair it.

Harry
Jun 13, 2003

I do solemnly swear that in the year 2015 I will theorycraft my wallet as well as my WoW
$8500 sounds pretty high for a 10 year old car.

Nocheez
Sep 5, 2000

Can you spare a little cheddar?
Nap Ghost

Harry posted:

$8500 sounds pretty high for a 10 year old car.

The used car market has been this way for a couple years now.

TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down

Nocheez posted:

The used car market has been this way for a couple years now.

So it would likely make sense for me to take my mom's 02 Accord with around 140k off her hands then? I'm thinking it'll be about 3-4k, and it's in pretty good shape. I believe it has a new transmission, but something is leaking that could cost a grand. I think even if I had to fix that, I'd come out quite ahead.

skipdogg
Nov 29, 2004
Resident SRT-4 Expert

Binary posted:

My 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse GTS is having transmission issues. Assuming the worst a new transmission will probably cost $2000-$4000 with labor I'm sure. The car has 167K miles on it and is paid off. Is it worth it to replace the transmission or to use the money for a new car? There's a dealership here with a 2002 Toyota Celica with 104K miles for $8500 that caught my eye. Is dumping the Eclipse for the Toyota a better call? I can pay cash for it, though it will come out of my emergency fund, so no financing will be involved.

Depends. Take it to an honest transmission shop, could be a 40 dollar solenoid, could need to be rebuilt or replaced.

If you shop around you should be able to swap with a rebuilt for 1500 bucks. If the rest of the car is in good shape, 1500 bucks to keep it running for another 6 months (or more!) is pretty cheap.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

TraderStav posted:

So it would likely make sense for me to take my mom's 02 Accord with around 140k off her hands then? I'm thinking it'll be about 3-4k, and it's in pretty good shape. I believe it has a new transmission, but something is leaking that could cost a grand. I think even if I had to fix that, I'd come out quite ahead.

Do you like your mom? 01-02 Accords all had massive transmission problems as she's found out already, so maybe you should dump it while this transmission is still good and get something a bit more reliable?

TraderStav
May 19, 2006

It feels like I was standing my entire life and I just sat down

Throatwarbler posted:

Do you like your mom? 01-02 Accords all had massive transmission problems as she's found out already, so maybe you should dump it while this transmission is still good and get something a bit more reliable?

Sure I like my Mom! But I don't believe she'd be offended if I bought it off her (giving her a few extra bucks towards a new used car I'm helping her buy herself) and then a few months I decided I wanted something different and flipped it.

I was thinking of a 06-09 Focus/Fusion or similar car if I could find one for 4-6k. The Accord came up as a low-cost opportunity of a car whose history I know.

Nocheez
Sep 5, 2000

Can you spare a little cheddar?
Nap Ghost

TraderStav posted:

So it would likely make sense for me to take my mom's 02 Accord with around 140k off her hands then? I'm thinking it'll be about 3-4k, and it's in pretty good shape. I believe it has a new transmission, but something is leaking that could cost a grand. I think even if I had to fix that, I'd come out quite ahead.

Maybe? I drive a 99 Camry with 185k miles that I bought off my dad 4 years ago for $3500. It's been the best car I've ever had, but my dad took good care of her while he owned her. The devil you know is better than the one you don't :)

Nocheez fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Feb 10, 2012

Binary
May 21, 2004

skipdogg posted:

Depends. Take it to an honest transmission shop, could be a 40 dollar solenoid, could need to be rebuilt or replaced.

If you shop around you should be able to swap with a rebuilt for 1500 bucks. If the rest of the car is in good shape, 1500 bucks to keep it running for another 6 months (or more!) is pretty cheap.

The shop said it needed a transmission rebuild. Maximum cost of $2400, I may be able to instead get a used transmission instead for less money. I'm going to call around and see what other places would charge for the work. The car has been kept in pretty good shape and the engine in it is supposed to be solid if maintenance is kept up. I knew that the transmission would be an issue at some point, it's a known problem with this model.

The way I look at it there's no other way I can stay on the road for another year or two for that little money. Any used car under 10K is going to be 10 years old so I'd be trading a dog of a car that I know the issues with for one with unknown problems.

Zuph
Jul 24, 2003
Zupht0r 6000 Turbo Type-R

Zuph posted:

I'm looking at for cars under $16500, and the Sonic is just a bit above that.

To follow up on this, I've now actually driven all of these cars, and the Sonic is the only one that really grabbed me. The Fiesta felt claustrophobic, the Accent felt cheap, the Mazda2 was fun in the corners, but a lot less fun on the freeway, and the Versa was big, comfy and cheap, but really boring. The Sonic was fun to drive (but not as fun as the Mazda2), had good interior fit-and-finish (but not as good as the Fiesta). I was not expecting to like this car so much.

So, I guess I'll stuff money into socks for another couple of months to make up the difference.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Harry posted:

$8500 sounds pretty high for a 10 year old car.

It'd be an ok price for an absolutely mint Celica GT-S.

Tongsy
Aug 22, 2007

Harry posted:

$8500 sounds pretty high for a 10 year old car.

The Celica is the kind of car you would have to pay the ricer tax on.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Zuph posted:

To follow up on this, I've now actually driven all of these cars, and the Sonic is the only one that really grabbed me. The Fiesta felt claustrophobic, the Accent felt cheap, the Mazda2 was fun in the corners, but a lot less fun on the freeway, and the Versa was big, comfy and cheap, but really boring. The Sonic was fun to drive (but not as fun as the Mazda2), had good interior fit-and-finish (but not as good as the Fiesta). I was not expecting to like this car so much.

So, I guess I'll stuff money into socks for another couple of months to make up the difference.

:argh: My cheque better be in the mail, GM!

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Zuph
Jul 24, 2003
Zupht0r 6000 Turbo Type-R
So, I took another test drive of my top 3 choices, and I definitely want to get the Sonic (I'll let you know in 50,000 miles if it's a POS). Unfortunately, the combination of features I want isn't available within 500 miles of where I am, so I'll have to special-order the car. This is fine by me, since I won't be ready for another month in either case.

This does bring up some questions, though. I get GM Supplier Discount through my employer, so I can get a pretty good price regardless of my negotiating prowess (About $100 below the TrueCar "target", and about $300 above dealer cost). What strategies should I use to try to negotiate a deal for a special order car? Same as if I were buying off the lot?

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