|
Err, I meant peaceful on the part of the demonstrators. It hasn't turned into a war. Government aggression goes without saying. edit: But now that I've thought about it more, I don't think that violence, on either side, is relevant to my overall point. It's really that I think there's difference between foreign government intervening and a foreign indivivdual. Both can absolutely be wrong, but they're of a different nature. Xandu fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Feb 18, 2012 |
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 00:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 22:20 |
|
|
What if the foreigner was participating in a peaceful way? As an arbitrary example, if Gandhi was alive today and decided to take up the cause of the Bahraini (sp?) people of peaceful resistance within their country, would you also condemn his participation?
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 00:40
|
|
|
Well when you raise the stakes to Gandhi  Honestly, I'll have to think about it some more, my initial opinion was not very well articulated.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 01:11
|
|
|
Well, despite all the misery and political stalemates of Syria, Libyans have been celebrating their revolution today. Really hope more Arab nations will one day have this same celebration being reported.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 01:38
|
|
|
Xandu posted:Well when you raise the stakes to Gandhi My opinion is very strongly in favour of foreigners travelling to other countries and participating in (non-violent) popular protests. It can really be helpful, especially if it's done in places that doesn't get a lot of attention otherwise. From what I've heard, this has really meant a lot in places like East Timor, South America, Palestine and for the situation of the Kurds in Turkey. Foreign nationals can be intimidating in that way, and can boost the morale a great deal. I know the American Occupy movement soaked up the encouraging message from the Egyptian trade union to the point of total exaggeration even if it wasn't much. Also I'm totally an internationalist.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 02:05
|
|
|
What you said,Xandu posted:A couple of Westerners being held after clashes between Bahraini police and protesters. In my opinion, Americans have absolutely no business being active participants in another country's protest/revolution. What it sounded like, Xandu posted:A couple of Mexicans being held after clashes between American police and protesters. In my opinion, Mexicans have absolutely no business being active participants in another country's protest/revolution. It sounds much worse if you use blacks instead of Mexicans, but I went with Mexicans because it is semantically closer. But I definitely don't think you really meant it that way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 02:28
|
|
|
Svartvit posted:My opinion is very strongly in favour of foreigners travelling to other countries and participating in (non-violent) popular protests. It can really be helpful, especially if it's done in places that doesn't get a lot of attention otherwise. From what I've heard, this has really meant a lot in places like East Timor, South America, Palestine and for the situation of the Kurds in Turkey. Foreign nationals can be intimidating in that way, and can boost the morale a great deal. I know the American Occupy movement soaked up the encouraging message from the Egyptian trade union to the point of total exaggeration even if it wasn't much. Also I'm totally an internationalist. Well, I'd say it depends on the foreigner. Plenty of them could be helpful, but they could very well gently caress it up, and the same intimidation factor would work the opposite way, making many people discredit the protest movement.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 02:35
|
|
|
Xandu posted:Well when you raise the stakes to Gandhi I got the sense that you meant "Americans have no business hijacking/playing tourist to another country's protest." The Westerners in those pics seem to be in it for the attention and for themselves. Gandhi would be in it for the cause.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 04:10
|
|
|
I don't want to speak to the intentions of people I don't know, but I think that better captures my discomfort, especially the way the article described the group as being "led" by the westerners. This video claims to show 2500 defected soldiers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMxEhVjk4_k
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 04:24
|
|
|
Holy poo poo that's a lot of guys with guns.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 04:57
|
|
|
I don't hear a date in the video, but the oldest mention of it I found was yesterday, so probably pretty recently. The upload description says it's from the 16th, as well.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 05:03
|
|
Sivias posted:What if the foreigner was participating in a peaceful way? As an arbitrary example, if Gandhi was alive today and decided to take up the cause of the Bahraini (sp?) people of peaceful resistance within their country, would you also condemn his participation? These protest movements don't need foreigners, they need their neighbors. If anything a foreign presence works directly against these homegrown and dynamic protest movements given pervasive paranoia towards foreign involvement, which is why protesters have generally been quick to deny any sort of foreign assistance. I would tell any foreigner that they are better off trying to raise awareness and build solidarity where they are rather than waste money flying off to an Arab country to play at being Che Guevara or Gandhi. I can really appreciate this gesture at the celebration of the Libyan Revolution anniversary: "Get out Bashar, for the fulfillment of our joy" 
az jan jananam fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Feb 18, 2012 |
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 05:26
|
|
|
az jan jananam posted:These protest movements don't need foreigners, they need their neighbors. If anything a foreign presence works directly against these homegrown and dynamic protest movements given pervasive paranoia towards foreign involvement, which is why protesters have generally been quick to deny any sort of foreign assistance. I would tell any foreigner that they are better off trying to raise awareness and build solidarity where they are rather than waste money flying off to an Arab country to play at being Che Guevara or Gandhi. Of course, what's the difference to the Bahraini police between a Bahraini protester and an American protester? No one cares if you shoot the Bahraini. Shooting an American protester causes all sorts of diplomatic problems, even if the State Department disavows the actions of a single individual citizen. And if you kick out all the Westerners to avoid it, you might as well kiss all your foreign aid as well. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 05:52 on Feb 18, 2012 |
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 05:50
|
|
|
Xandu and others, Haven't many revolutions (peaceful and violent) involved foreigners? Granted many historical examples were totally politically motivated, if you or someone else desires to see the end of a malevolent regime/leader, is it bad if someone from outside aids those who are seeking change? While it would be a difficult if not impossible question to answer (that of if the foreigner is acting for purely selfish reasons like photo ops, potential fame, etc. or if the foreigner is acting because he or she wants to see this movement succeed), is there harm in helping or accepting help from a third party to accomplish your arguably noble ends? Is the revolution less legitimate because someone from outside helped? And if the revolution succeeds will anyone care about or remember the outside help after a few years?
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 06:23
|
|
|
I think Xandu's point had good intentions on principle, although stated from a source of emotion. Foreign intervention in the affairs of other nations, from the simple (individual posting on the internet showing support for one party or the other) to the extreme (bombing, invasion, and widespread military footprint), will always be a subject of controversy. It can't be black and white - okay or not okay. I would contend that the support of basic human rights crowns that of patriotic individualism. We may come from different nations, but aren't we all entitled to basic human rights? Should we not protect the species before the identity? I used Gandhi as an example to direct more to the point that it's not who but what he did that has made him so iconic. His nationality was irrelevant in the face of the inhumane. I agree that the perversion of using such events by anybody should be viewed with disgust. But I would also advocate that if these people are willing to sacrifice the same fate as those they intend to assist, their choices are their own. As well as the consequences. Perhaps this would be better suited for a DnD thread, but an interesting evaluation on our self imposed divisions.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 08:43
|
|
|
Did Caro ever mention how he obtained contacts that were good enough to get to the front lines in Libya? In the Voices of Libya blog he mentions meeting friends at certain points in his journey, but never how he knew them or where he met them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 09:24
|
|
|
He pretty much got to the Dafniyah frontline by getting a lift from outside the hotel in Misrata from a random Libyan. The second time he was in Misrata he had made some friends that introduced him to another group of fighters and he bumped into his old group outside Sirte. Then he started travelling back and forth between Misrata and Sirte with his old group until the final big push on Sirte.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 09:55
|
|
|
az jan jananam posted:These protest movements don't need foreigners, they need their neighbors. If anything a foreign presence works directly against these homegrown and dynamic protest movements given pervasive paranoia towards foreign involvement, which is why protesters have generally been quick to deny any sort of foreign assistance. I would tell any foreigner that they are better off trying to raise awareness and build solidarity where they are rather than waste money flying off to an Arab country to play at being Che Guevara or Gandhi. Yeah of course, you have to exercise judgement. What works in one place or even generally isn't necessarily a good idea everywhere. The protest movements in the Middle East are not all that is in the world though, may I remind you that things are going on in other places, like in Tibet where the same stigma doesn't exist. And "foreigner" doesn't imply "Westerner" either, it can easily be Libyan or Maldivian or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 15:09
|
|
|
Here's video of the chinese lanterns released in Martyr's Square, Tripoli, as part of the celebrations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLoVNFVBgS0
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 16:12
|
|
|
Svartvit posted:Yeah of course, you have to exercise judgement. What works in one place or even generally isn't necessarily a good idea everywhere. The protest movements in the Middle East are not all that is in the world though, may I remind you that things are going on in other places, like in Tibet where the same stigma doesn't exist. And "foreigner" doesn't imply "Westerner" either, it can easily be Libyan or Maldivian or whatever. Yeah, context is really important here. Protesters from another Arab country? No problem. Protesters from America, or god forbid Israel? Yeah,a really big problem and a god-send for the regime trying to paint the protests as a Western-Zionist plot.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 16:17
|
|
|
No major changes in the past day, just more of the same, with China saying they want all sides to put down their arms and work towards peace, more protests, more death, and more defections. Here's a few videos: This video dated 18/02/12 shows a gathering in the Mezzeh district of Damascus, and security forces apparently firing into the crowd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHHCLAmzV2c It was likely part of this funeral for people killed in yesterday's attacks on protesters in Mezzeh, which you can see is pretty huge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925Lt4eLO4s It seems there's an increasing number of significant protests in Damascus, and shooting them isn't making them go away. One of the victims of the shelling in Baba Amr, Homs, a baby wounded by rocket fragments   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gut6LSij5ms
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 16:19
|
|
|
Xandu posted:Err, I meant peaceful on the part of the demonstrators. It hasn't turned into a war. Government aggression goes without saying. The main difference is that if an individual goes to a foreign country, that individual is -not- covered by the same rights that country's own citizens are by its nation's constitution. Nearly every nation's constitution lays out its citizens rights, defines who is a citizen of the nation, and vows to protect -them-. Foreign visitors are not citizens, and therefore not granted the same rights within the borders of a foreign nation. They do not have the right to speak out against a nations governing bodies, and they certainly do not have the right to raise arms against it, even if alongside its own citizens. I'm American and those Americans that were detained should feel lucky they were -detained- because they could have easily ended up blood puddles, and if they had I wouldn't have felt sorry for them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 16:30
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lxvk1CRBq6A Dude's making an argileh pipe in Baba Amr from some ordinance.
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 18:51
|
|
|
This'll all come to a head soon, it seems.http://twitter.com/#!/arwaCNN posted:Head of humanitarian office says no food has come in for last 3wks & less than week supply left #homs #syria
|
|
#
?
Feb 18, 2012 20:36
|
|
|
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/18/world/meast/iran-warships/index.htmlCNN posted:Iranian warships sail into the Mediterranean This would essentially make passing any sort of naval oriented NATO operation impossible, right? How long can a battle ship hold position in the Mediterranean? Edit: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57380952/china-supports-arab-leagues-proposals-for-syria/ CBS posted:China supports Arab League's proposals for Syria I thought the whole UNSC was to see if everyone agreed to the Arab League's proposal? I suppose getting a new vote on it would be pointless without someone flipping sides. Will they hold another vote? Russia would be alone. Sivias fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Feb 19, 2012 |
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 06:44
|
|
|
It's not the ship, it's the mines that would slow everything up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 06:46
|
|
|
Sivias posted:http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/18/world/meast/iran-warships/index.html That's not the goal of this action, it's to show solidarity with Syria and to deliver supplies. It's a tad provocative but not a full-on ploy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 08:37
|
|
|
I haven't seen this posted yet, so I wanted to bring it up:"Trial of Americans in Egypt Shakes Ties Between Nations posted:Egypt will begin criminal proceedings on Friday against 19 Americans and two dozen others in a politically charged investigation into the foreign financing of nonprofit groups that has plunged relations between the United States and Egypt to their lowest point in three decades, state news media reported Saturday. And from an Op-ed: "Empty Talk on Tahrir Square posted:The military, [Mohamed Elbaradei] said, had assumed control of Egypt “as if no revolution had taken place and no regime had fallen.” And he may be right. This is beyond frustrating. Obviously, the military government is trying to convince the broad masses that whatever problems they are currently experiencing are due to American meddling and not their own blatant failings at governance and proceeding along the agreed-upon path towards a democratically elected civilian government. Beyond the foremost irony of the recipients of $1.5 billion accusing others of being supported by Americans, it's deeply disappointing that the choice they have made is clear: blame the outsiders, retrench, hold on to power and refuse to make the real structural changes needed to fulfill the goals of the revolution. Holding our aid hostage against the review of their peace treaty with Israel is... well, it's hard not to feel insulted. I'm tempted to say we should just call their bluff but I'm not the one who has to deal with the consequences.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 15:19
|
|
|
Mozi posted:This is beyond frustrating. Obviously, the military government is trying to convince the broad masses that whatever problems they are currently experiencing are due to American meddling and not their own blatant failings at governance and proceeding along the agreed-upon path towards a democratically elected civilian government. Beyond the foremost irony of the recipients of $1.5 billion accusing others of being supported by Americans, it's deeply disappointing that the choice they have made is clear: blame the outsiders, retrench, hold on to power and refuse to make the real structural changes needed to fulfill the goals of the revolution.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:19
|
|
|
Brown Moses posted:He pretty much got to the Dafniyah frontline by getting a lift from outside the hotel in Misrata from a random Libyan. The second time he was in Misrata he had made some friends that introduced him to another group of fighters and he bumped into his old group outside Sirte. Then he started travelling back and forth between Misrata and Sirte with his old group until the final big push on Sirte. And his undying love for Dr. Tameem.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:34
|
|
|
Chortles posted:It makes way more sense if you view Mubarak's ouster as SCAF sacrificing their "figurehead" to preserve their junta and them never having been for the revolution to begin with. I was cynically speculating this from the start, with how hands-off the military seemed.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:40
|
|
|
Chortles posted:It makes way more sense if you view Mubarak's ouster as SCAF sacrificing their "figurehead" to preserve their junta and them never having been for the revolution to begin with. I don't think many people ever thought the military was for the revolution per se, but there used to be the hope that they would go along with it for the best interests of the country. Why does realism always win...
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:44
|
|
|
Brown Moses posted:This is what anti-Assad activists claim to be the Syrian army using local residents as human shields for tanks Why would you need human shields near a tank with reactive armour? Even a glancing blow could trigger the bricks, and then you have no more human shields.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:51
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Why would you need human shields near a tank with reactive armour? They're strapping dissidents on the tank to deter people from shooting at the tank and killing their friends. They're not using bodies as an armor multiplier.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:54
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Why would you need human shields near a tank with reactive armour? The whole point is to discourage any sort of action against the tank.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:54
|
|
|
That's insane. I thought maybe they were using the human shields so they could negotiate, like a white flag or something. I didn't realize they'd have civilians nearby in combat.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 17:59
|
|
|
More terribly named brigades. Yazid bin Muawiyah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSlfQ-UPlHk These guys look pretty tiny and unprofessional, though. Hard to say if it's authentic. edit: Do most Sunnis consider the Alawi to be Shia?
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 18:01
|
|
|
With regard to Egypt, the Egyptian revolutionaries were well-aware very early on that military rule posed a threat. Their earliest statements during the revolution called for the removal of the army from Egyptian politics. It just happened that the strategically correct choice during the revolution was to win over the the military against the NDP.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 18:03
|
|
|
Hopefully someone has an answer to this, but I've noticed that in Syria and Libya that the rebels almost never wear helmets, even the defectors. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me because I know the defectors would have been issued helmets for sure, and generally they aren't hard to come by. Is there a reason for that? I'd think that since they're usually being shelled or rocketed they'd want to avoid casualties as much as possible and that's what helmets are designed to do.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 18:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 22:20 |
|
|
Can't look like a revolutionary badass with a helmet bro  That or they want to be able to fade into civilian crowds easier, combat fatigues or not. But I don't think that would protect anyone anymore, considering the government forces are shooting at unarmed civilians too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 19, 2012 18:16
|
|
