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Oh man, my remaining hamster (whose brother died in august at 1.5 years http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3229729&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=35#post394613810) is nearly two and suddenly appears to have aged 10 years in a week. He has put on a ton of weight, has thinning fur, and is no longer running in his wheel at night or getting around very well in his ball. He probably doesn't have a whole lot more time. These guys don't live very long but that doesn't make it easy to lose them.
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Feb 7, 2012 03:56
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Huge Liability posted:What about a white-footed mouse or a deer mouse? Those are apparently two species of mice that look similar to fancy mice and are sometimes sold under that name, but aren't closely related to them. They have longer feet and larger eyes than a fancy mouse. Definitely not a deer mouse-- back then, I'd had a couple that I somehow abducted from the basement and kept for a while. They smelled like all the urine, so we released them after a short while. I'm surprised that pet stores would carry them, as I always figured they came under the wild animal category that you could get shook down for selling (but then, I suppose iguanas and tarantulas aren't exactly domesticated-- I really have no idea how the whole deal works). The white-footed mouse has some more similarities, but the big eyes and shape don't quite jive. But at the same time, she doesn't fit with the pygmy mouse, because of the face length. I found a Patterson-Gimlin-style photo of her deep in the jungles of my closet:  Yes, she's sitting in a food dispenser.
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Feb 7, 2012 12:00
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Faux Frog posted:So, I got mice. I started when I was about 10-12, took a long hiatus, and now they're back. With impunity. Could it have been a baby Jerboa?  When I was a kid a petstore I frequent use to have one. I thought it was one of the coolest looking animals I'd ever seen...
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Feb 7, 2012 13:39
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Oh god, now I'm just imagining a scenario in which a jerboa has to room with a bunch of mice. Another entry for my long list of sitcom ideas to pitch.
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Feb 7, 2012 13:59
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Faux Frog posted:Definitely not a deer mouse-- back then, I'd had a couple that I somehow abducted from the basement and kept for a while. They smelled like all the urine, so we released them after a short while. I tried keeping a wild mouse once when I was young but it didn't work. The bars of the cage were far enough apart that no hamster or gerbil could ever squeeze through, but this mouse seemed to unhinge all of its bones at once and slid through like the morphing bad guy from Terminator 2. It was pretty freaky and it was probably for the best.
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Feb 7, 2012 16:26
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I think I have too many mouse-escape stories to count. But I'm going to try. Well, the main reason we had for loosing the deer mice was because they escaped and wedged themselves underneath our hefty yo mattress. Getting them back in the cage was harder than getting a baby out of a PVC pipe, and that wasn't something we wanted to repeat. Then there's this decade's batch: 1) We had a litter that was at that hyperactive, hoppin' around stage, and, unfortunately, also had to go on a week-long trip to beautiful where-the-hell Indiana. We return to find that several of the babies had not only escaped their cage, but had snuck into the neighbouring cage containing the crazy loner mouse. Apparently, they were just chillin; everything was fine. 2) I wake up. I feel something moving on the covers over my head. At first, I think it's just my jackass cat trying to climb onto my head. I peek out from under the covers, turn to look up at the adjacent shelf. Yeah, there's a mouse. This is weeks after I'd thought they'd gotten over their escape stage. His name is now Rodent Houdini. 3) We have two separate cages for the girls and the boys. One day, I notice drops of blood in the boy's cage. And then I notice that the lone white boymouse is looking a little small. And then white boymouse walks by. Because it turns out that one of the white girlmice had escaped to the boys' cage and had gotten beaten up-- all kinds of bites on her underbelly. Had to move her to an auxiliary hospital cage and everything. Any many more... drat kids these days.
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Feb 10, 2012 04:49
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My guinea pigs like each other! Well kind of, but the introductions went well. Ginger and Paprika (the new addition to our family) met each other finally a few days ago. I was so nervous when they were doing their dominance dance during the 3rd attempt that I finally had to sit in the other room while my boyfriend supervised. This is my first time having two guinea pigs, and their interactions are so adorable. There's a tunnel in their cage, and they're alternating hogging it, pushing each other out of it. And they complement each other so much. One hogs the carrots while the other hogs the cilantro or parsley. Tonight we're finally building a larger cage with two ramps this time. Can't wait!
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Feb 10, 2012 21:40
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Naffer posted:Oh man, my remaining hamster (whose brother died in august at 1.5 years http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3229729&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=35#post394613810) is nearly two and suddenly appears to have aged 10 years in a week. He has put on a ton of weight, has thinning fur, and is no longer running in his wheel at night or getting around very well in his ball. He probably doesn't have a whole lot more time. These guys don't live very long but that doesn't make it easy to lose them. Lost Simon last night at nearly 2 years old.
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Feb 11, 2012 15:59
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Here is a photo of our oldest Guinea pig though!
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Feb 11, 2012 16:02
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Nutmeg would like to know why I am so cruel and insist on brushing her. Revenge will be sworn by crawling up my neck!  Wait, what's this thing?  Fine, I'll be pretty.  But I want hay afterwards. (she's eating her hay right now. 
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Feb 13, 2012 20:15
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Careful on the neck-crawling. When I rescued my Parvati, I used to sit with her in the recliner, and she would climb up my chest and around my neck and perch on my shoulder. I kind of dug the image of her as some kind of reincarnated parrot right up until the day she climbed up on my shoulder and peed all down my back. 
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Feb 15, 2012 04:22
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She's more likely to pee on my chest so it soaks into my bra. Little bitch. And its funny about the parrot thing, my mom calls her brother, who is also a shoulder percher "Pudgie the Parrot".
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Feb 15, 2012 16:16
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Oh god my order with KM's hayloft didn't go through and I had to switch to pet store hay. I noticed that they got really good at flinging poop out of their cage, there were like 10 poops on the living room floor when I got home from work.
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Feb 17, 2012 06:13
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One of our piggies is sick  . He's about 3 years old, and we noticed he was losing weight (2.5 lbs to 2 lbs in about 2.5 weeks). We noticed he was eating a bit, but only nibbling. We took him to the vet, and they said that his teeth are overgrown and are making it hard to eat. They need to grind them down. They also said since he hasn't been eating much, he probably has GI issues, and we need to hand feed him with a syringe for a bit with the critical care food. She also gave us some painkillers to give him (Metacam), and a $350 bill.Since we started giving the painkillers and hand feeding him, he's only seemed to get weaker and more out of it. He moves very slowly, has a hard time pushing things around, and seems to have a bit of a hard time seeing or making his way through the cage. Sometimes he just sits in one place outside of his pigloo and stares. He's started pooping again, which is good, although it's pretty watery. I hope the little guy is just getting adjusted to eating again, but he really doesn't seem happy at all. The vet is closed today, so I guess we'll just have to call back and give an update on Monday and see what the vet says from there.
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Feb 19, 2012 18:04
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How much Metacam did they prescribe for him? Did the vet prescribe any antibiotics or gut motility medications? If its a GI issue the best thing you can do is just keep forcing food down him, feed him 4-6 times a day if possible. As long as you can see that food is going through him and he is making stools and urine, its a good sign. Keep at it, I've brought plenty of pigs back from the brink of gut stasis this way. Do you have him housed with other pigs? Separating him and putting him a smaller cage while he is sick would be a good idea, otherwise its hard to monitor output when you've got a couple poop-producers in the same area.
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Feb 19, 2012 18:24
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The prescribed 2.5cc of Metacam twice a day. No other drugs, just vitamin C stuff and the Critical Care food. He's definitely peeing and pooping, as we see him do it a lot when we take him out to feed him. In his cage though he sits in one place and just kinda twitches every few seconds, which doesn't look good and my best guess is some sort of stomach pains or something since he's not used to eating so much. His stool is watery and he's not really happy to eat the food. He fights us when he tries to feed him, and the vet recommended 60cc of the critical care stuff a day. We're just trying to make it through and feed him every few hours.
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Feb 19, 2012 18:35
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Imaduck posted:The prescribed 2.5cc of Metacam twice a day. No other drugs, just vitamin C stuff and the Critical Care food. Without knowing the concentration of Metacam you were given, 5cc a day seems like a hell of a lot. For comparison, I have some Metacam that is 1.5mg/ml that I would give to my ~1000g pig .1cc twice a day MAX. I'm going to hope what you wrote before was a typo and you meant .25cc. If you have the same concentration of Metacam I do then the poor guy is probably getting 20x the amount he needs, which is why he is acting all drugged out and lethargic. And its pretty normal for guinea pigs to not like being force fed. I've never had one that liked it, you are going to get it all over him and yourself, but just keep at it. Edit: A problem with Metacam is it will also act as a depressant for gut motility which makes it kind of a terrible thing to give to a pig if they are in gut stasis. IANAV (I am not a vet) but I would probably try to get a second opinion on the Metacam, and/or discontinue/greatly reduce it until he is eating on his own again. Sirotan fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Feb 19, 2012 |
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Feb 19, 2012 18:48
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Ack, no, I double checked. My wife said 25 cc but she meant .25, which I double checked on the bottle and the syringe, so we're all good there. Thanks for picking up on that - I've had vets prescribe the wrong amounts of medications before, to not-so-good ends.
Imaduck fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Feb 19, 2012 |
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Feb 19, 2012 18:53
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Imaduck posted:Ack, no, I double checked. My wife said 25 cc but she meant .25, which I double checked on the bottle and the syringe, so we're all good there. Thanks for picking up on that - I've had vets prescribe the wrong amounts of medications before, to not-so-good ends. Well that's a relief, though on the other hand it eliminates what I thought might be an obvious reasons for his behavior. I guess all I can say is good luck on the hand feeding and get him back to the vet ASAP Monday.
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Feb 19, 2012 18:58
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I just upgraded from a 2'x1' cage (it's larger than it sounds) to a 55 gallon aquarium for my two gerbils, Sam & Crow. This tank is enormous and I'd like to add a 3rd critter to the mix. However I've read (from a single source) that adding a single gerbil to a pair of buddies is very difficult, split tank method or otherwise. Does anyone have any experience or recommendations? edit/ 
Dignity Van Houten fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 20, 2012 |
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Feb 19, 2012 22:03
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Naffer posted:Lost Simon last night at nearly 2 years old. He looks like my hamster when you wake her up. Sorry for your loss.
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Feb 19, 2012 22:48
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Imaduck posted:We took him to the vet, and they said that his teeth are overgrown and are making it hard to eat. They need to grind them down. Do you know if they identified the molars as the problem, or just the incisors? Did they trim both molars and incisors, or just one or the other? Molar overgrowth is *incredibly* common in pigs, and around 3 years old is about when it first starts to be a problem. I'd hypothesize (based on my limited experience) that it's probably the #1 cause of death in pigs. The only way I've found to combat it is to feed an exceptionally strict diet which is about 90% longstem grass hay, 10% veggies with emphasis on stemmy herbs and crispy greens like bell peppers, and only the TINIEST amount of pellets (less frequent than daily). As the molars overgrow, it causes the pig's jaw to be held open, which allows the incisors to overgrow as well. Some vets will see the obvious incisors as the problem but neglect to check the molars. Others will correctly identify the molars as the problem, but then neglect to also take down the incisors to an appropriate length - so the jaw is now held open by the incisors, making molar overgrowth occur that much more rapidly. Both sets of teeth have to be taken down to correct lengths at the same time and then the pig has to go on this nearly pellet-free diet to maintain correct wear patterns. You may also ask your vet about giving subcu fluids. Some pigs with oral pain stop drinking, and when they have GI issues, I find that oral fluid supplements aren't enough to keep them adequately hydrated and they do better when I add subcu fluids to their critical care regimen. Keep us updated and best of luck!
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Feb 20, 2012 16:44
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Thanks! Yeah, after my post yesterday, Jasper started being a bit more lively, but it was pretty clear he was having jaw pain. He kept biting onto the side of the cage and just holding his jaw there to fight the pain, I think. Otherwise he was moving around alright, and pretty effectively running away from us when we tried to feed him. We're taking him to a different vet today since the one we saw on Friday said they couldn't trim his teeth until at least Wednesday (plus they're known for charging way the hell too much for visits). We contacted another vet who specializes in exotics and said she has done teeth trimmings many times on guinea pigs. I'm not sure which teeth were overgrown, but I do know that the new vet mentioned taking a look at both the molars and the incisors and trimming both if necessary, so she seems to know what she's talking about. Thanks for the feeding advice! I guess I've been told previously that pellets aren't really necessary anyway, so it shouldn't be a problem taking them off of those. He already likes bell peppers, so that's good. Any other foods you recommend? In your experience, how often do they need to go back to the vet for future trimmings? Is there an easy way to tell when their teeth are getting bad again?
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Feb 20, 2012 18:21
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Oh poor guy, I didn't realize he hadn't had the teeth trimmed yet. You probably won't see any improvement till that is done, but once it is, he'll probably perk right up. Malloclusion can range from sharp spurs poking at the tongue and cheeks (causing soft-tissue injury and pain), to simple overgrowth (the pig can't open his jaw wide enough to swallow), to tongue entrapment (the lower molars on opposite sides curve towards one another and can even actually touch in the middle, preventing tongue motion and restricting swallowing). Malloclusion is most frequently diet-linked, but there is a large hereditary component. Some pigs never get it, regardless of diet, others are predisposed to it and will get it over and over despite a perfect diet. If you get him on a strict diet, trimming may never be necessary again, but you'll need to continue to weigh him weekly and be proactive with a vet visit if you see even a small losing trend. About 10g per week over 2 weeks would be cause for concern, the half pound loss you noted is 170g, to give you an idea of how small an increment you need to watch for. Personally, I bought this tool and us it to do visual inspections monthly or whenever I have signs of anorexia or weight loss. I have a houseful of elderly rescues, though, so that is maybe overkill for a single pig, but it's great to be able to confirm that it's just a tooth problem and get the pig in for a trim ASAP. For diet, it's really the hay that makes the difference; my guys get pellets less than once a month and I frequently alternate between multiple types of grass hay (timothy and bluegrass right now) to get them to eat more. They probably eat around a pound of hay per pig per day. For veggies, I stick to things that have some crunch when they're chewed: adult romaine lettuce (it's crunchier than baby romaine, butter lettuce or red/green leaf), bell peppers, bok choi, and stemmy herbs like cilantro, parsley, basil, mint, fennel, etc.
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Feb 20, 2012 20:15
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Thanks again. I talked to my wife and she said the vet said his teeth were bad enough that they were restricting is swallowing, so definitely a bad issue. We'll have to get a better scale, because the error on the food scale we use is large enough that there's no way we'd notice a 10 g drop. They should be trimming him right now, so hopefully it all goes well. Can we expect to see him get back to eating immediately, or will it take him a bit to get over some of the pain and adjust?
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Feb 20, 2012 20:42
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Imaduck posted:They should be trimming him right now, so hopefully it all goes well. Can we expect to see him get back to eating immediately, or will it take him a bit to get over some of the pain and adjust? It depends, but some of those I've taken in with massive tongue entrapment have been eating within minutes of coming out of anesthesia. For the next few days, getting him eating again is more important than restricting diet, so offer anything he will take including pellets and even alfalfa hay if need be. If his mouth is sore, he may accept softer foods better, including watermelon, apple sauce, babyfood carrot mash, and canned pumpkin. Wheatgrass (sold in the little planters in the produce section) has given me great results for pigs coming out of GI stasis; it's soft enough to chew easily but the taste seems to give them their appetite for hay back. Good luck and please keep updating!
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Feb 20, 2012 20:53
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The vet said that the molars were the main problem, and the incisors only needed a slight trimming. The molars were apparently bad enough to prevent him from swallowing. She also feared he might have a respiratory infection, and prescribed some antibiotics. They did the trimming, and she said that Jasper should wake up and start eating pretty soon afterwards. Well, he's woken up, but he still doesn't seem to want to eat. He tried chewing on some lettuce and an orange, but he acts like his jaw is still pretty sore. We tried feeding him some of the critical care manually, and he hated it and spit a lot of it out, so I'm not sure if it's worth it to try and keep forcing it on him, or just wait and see if the soreness wears down and he starts eating again. I'm also worried he's not drinking enough. The hydrated him at the office, but he's not really using his water bottle (we saw him once or twice). I guess the plan is to see how he does overnight, call the vet in the morning, and hope he starts eating again .
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Feb 21, 2012 04:27
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It's absolutely critical to keep food going through a guinea pig's gut otherwise they could go into gut stasis and die very quickly. I'm sure your piggy hates it but until he starts eating something on his own you just gotta force down as much food as you can no matter how much he fights you or spits it back out. Glad to hear he had his molars trimmed. Hope he's feeling better soon!
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Feb 21, 2012 05:12
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This morning Jasper is looking a bit better. Previously, his eyes had been a bit droopy and he was breathing more slowly / harder than he normally would have, presumably from the respiratory infection. Today his eyes look better and he's breathing at a normal rate, so that's a good sign. He's also trying to nibble at some soft fruits and hay, although he's having a bit of a hard time with it. We called the vet and she said he probably was still sore and to keep supplementing with the critical care. I still worry about the syringe feeding, as he really just seems to pack it all into his cheeks and spit it out, so it's hard to say if any of it is getting swallowed. He poops occasionally, but not as often as he should be. I guess all we can do is keep trying.
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Feb 21, 2012 18:30
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935 posted:I just upgraded from a 2'x1' cage (it's larger than it sounds) to a 55 gallon aquarium for my two gerbils, Sam & Crow. This tank is enormous and I'd like to add a 3rd critter to the mix. However I've read (from a single source) that adding a single gerbil to a pair of buddies is very difficult, split tank method or otherwise. Does anyone have any experience or recommendations? That looks giant. Does it have an area 'upstairs' for them too? I couldn't quite tell from the photo. I've read that there's a high chance of gerbils fighting if you try to mix them with others outside their family. I suppose it would be a bit easier if they were young, so they could get used to a stranger, but I wouldn't like to risk it personally.
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Feb 21, 2012 22:19
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Well, it's been a not-so-good day. Jasper wasn't eating or pooping, so my wife took him back to the vet. After looking at him for a bit, it was clear that he was bloated, and the vet also feared intestinal torsion. She took some X-rays, and sure enough, he was very bloated and his organs were a bit twisted and in disarray, making it impossible for digestion. She said she could try to relieve some of the pressure by inserting a tube down his throat, or go nuclear and cut him open and try and fix things in a very invasive, expensive, and risky operation. We went with the tube, and she was able get rid of some of the gas. She said she really couldn't be sure if the torsion would be able to work itself out. We brought him home, and after an hour we fed him and gave him a tummy massage as prescribed by the doctor. Almost immediately after that, there was a poop, followed by a couple more a few minutes later. It's been a few hours now however, and nothing since the first few. We're gonna keep feeding him and massaging and hope for the best, but at this point we're not very optimistic .
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Feb 22, 2012 04:51
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I'm sorry he's having trouble. I've had a lot of pigs come back from pretty bad stasis, though, so don't give up hope. How's his hydration levels? Did you discuss subcu fluids with the vet? What about simethecone for the gas? Is he still on reglan for motility? Does he show ANY interest in food? Can you try offering some fresh grass or wheatgrass? What was his reaction to fragrant herbs? One of my vets swears by dill which I forgot to mention. This is when alfalfa may work, too. I've also had resistant cases of stasis where the critical care seemed to be causing gas and I had to alternate with ground pellets. I got a $10 coffee grinder at the supermarket and after grinding mix it just like CC. It's a lot harder to push through the syringe so it has to be made more watery.
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Feb 22, 2012 12:54
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This morning there are still no poops .alucinor posted:How's his hydration levels? Did you discuss subcu fluids with the vet? What about simethecone for the gas? Is he still on reglan for motility? quote:Does he show ANY interest in food? Can you try offering some fresh grass or wheatgrass? What was his reaction to fragrant herbs? One of my vets swears by dill which I forgot to mention. This is when alfalfa may work, too. quote:I've also had resistant cases of stasis where the critical care seemed to be causing gas and I had to alternate with ground pellets. I got a $10 coffee grinder at the supermarket and after grinding mix it just like CC. It's a lot harder to push through the syringe so it has to be made more watery.
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Feb 22, 2012 16:28
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Try to just give a few MLs of critical care at a time if he is spitting it up. Some of it is getting in there even if it doesn't seem like it. The trick is to stick the syringe in his throat far enough that he can't spit it out. If you can feel him chewing on it with his molars then you've got it in the right spot. I don't think I can possibly stress well enough in a post how important to make sure you are doing as much as you can to get food in him.
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Feb 22, 2012 16:57
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935 posted:I just upgraded from a 2'x1' cage (it's larger than it sounds) to a 55 gallon aquarium for my two gerbils, Sam & Crow. This tank is enormous and I'd like to add a 3rd critter to the mix. However I've read (from a single source) that adding a single gerbil to a pair of buddies is very difficult, split tank method or otherwise. Does anyone have any experience or recommendations? No comment on adding more gerbils, but you really ought to consider dumping more bedding in there. Being able to dig around and create nest somewhere out of sight has been quite important thing for every gerbil I've ever known. I've usually used around 7-10 inches of shavings and shredded paper in my aquariums. It requires you to figure out a way to get the food container and water bottle high though.
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Feb 22, 2012 19:49
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Imaduck posted:This morning there are still no poops Poor guy. If you want to go balls to the wall I'd recommend offering a more aggressive variety of foods including babyfood mashed carrots, applesauce, canned pumpkin, and all the fragrant herbs you can put your hands on (cilantro, dill, parsley, fennel, and basil at a minimum), because you never know what's going to make the difference. Also, are you feeding every 4 hours including in the middle of the night? They are most active/hungry around dawn and dusk so I think those nighttime feedings are crucial. I'd also strongly recommend discussing subcu fluids, simethicone, and relgan with the vet. But if she doesn't feel those are warranted there's not much more you can do than you already are. I posted a handfeeding guide many moons ago (clicky) which gives instructions that go along with Sirotan's point - you don't want to squirt in a mouthful each time. The syringe should be delivered in many tiny, tiny mouthfuls - a 10mL feeding can take up to half an hour by my method, but it gets almost the whole amount into the animal's stomach. Another thing you can try is contacting the local guinea pig rescue (http://theguineapigrescue.com/ if you're still in Austin) and see if they have anyone near you who would be willing to help out either with feedings, subcu fluids, or anything else they can think of. Here's hoping for the best. I had one little guy pull out of nearly 2 weeks of stasis and go on to live another 5 years so it's not hopeless yet.
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Feb 22, 2012 20:10
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alucinor posted:If you want to go balls to the wall I'd recommend offering a more aggressive variety of foods including babyfood mashed carrots, applesauce, canned pumpkin, and all the fragrant herbs you can put your hands on (cilantro, dill, parsley, fennel, and basil at a minimum), because you never know what's going to make the difference. Also, are you feeding every 4 hours including in the middle of the night? They are most active/hungry around dawn and dusk so I think those nighttime feedings are crucial. quote:I'd also strongly recommend discussing subcu fluids, simethicone, and relgan with the vet. But if she doesn't feel those are warranted there's not much more you can do than you already are. quote:I posted a handfeeding guide many moons ago (clicky) which gives instructions that go along with Sirotan's point - you don't want to squirt in a mouthful each time. The syringe should be delivered in many tiny, tiny mouthfuls - a 10mL feeding can take up to half an hour by my method, but it gets almost the whole amount into the animal's stomach. quote:Here's hoping for the best. I had one little guy pull out of nearly 2 weeks of stasis and go on to live another 5 years so it's not hopeless yet.
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Feb 23, 2012 01:26
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Imaduck posted:When we called the vet today, she suggested maybe subcu fluids, but we discussed it with her and she said it'd be fine to just give him syringes of water throughout the day, in addition to the other stuff. Otherwise we'd have to keep dragging him back and fourth to the vet, which is a lot of stress (and money, which is unfortunately becoming an issue given the crazy amount we've already spent). She hasn't really pushed for the other meds yet, but she said we could discuss it again tomorrow. The vet should be able to show you how to drop a bag of fluid into him. It's not fun, but it's doable. When my guys aren't eating I generally do fluids 1-2x a day on my own.
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Feb 23, 2012 04:02
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We had to put Jasper to sleep yesterday . When we went to feed him in the middle of the night, he had no strength, and couldn't even stand up. The vet said she thinks the intestinal torsion just never worked itself out, so he couldn't process any food or swallow or anything. Jasper was a great pig. He loved just sitting on the couch with me and watching TV. He had great soft fur that went in every direction. He was a cute bossy pig who loved just hanging out. Thanks for your guys' help. I was glad we at least gave him the best chance we could. He'll be greatly missed.  
Imaduck fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Feb 24, 2012 |
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Feb 24, 2012 23:49
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Dang. Sorry to hear that. When I lost my first pig I tried to remind myself how much better their life was than your average pig. Most spend their lives in tiny cages with very little interaction. He was a lucky guy. Rest well little dude.
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Feb 25, 2012 01:28
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