Aeronautical Insanity: switching to secondary tolerances

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Aeronautical Insanity: switching to secondary tolerances

«‹›2233 »

Ola: Jul 19, 2004

I tried to find a HUD video from an A-10 shooting down a Tornado, but seems like it's off youtube. Or perhaps the youtube app isn't seeing it, it gets very strange search results at times.

To compensate, here's a MiG-29 shooting down a drone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BypnhFI7HGY

# ? Mar 13, 2012 12:03

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:13

MagnumHB: Jan 19, 2003

iyaayas01 posted:

e: There was also an A-10 that engaged some small gunboat type vessels with the GAU-8 during the recent dustup over Libya, sinking one of them...that was also the same engagement where a P-3 engaged a patrol boat with a Maverick in what was (I believe) the first and only time the P-3 has ever employed that missile in combat. IIRC a Navy goon was actually on board when they made the strike.

Here's the press release.

quote:

FYI, all USAF demo teams except for the Raptor got canned due to budget cuts.

Don't forget the Thunderbirds.

Ola posted:

I tried to find a HUD video from an A-10 shooting down a Tornado, but seems like it's off youtube.

This seems to be it.

MagnumHB fucked around with this message at 13:26 on Mar 13, 2012

# ? Mar 13, 2012 13:23

Bugsmasher: May 3, 2004

Calgary area aviation goons, after a few delays the Antonov 225 is finally scheduled to arrive here this morning at 0901. Track the flight here:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ADB148F

# ? Mar 13, 2012 14:32

Godholio: Aug 28, 2002; Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

iyaayas01 posted:

Hahahaha...I can imagine the BRAA call for that shot, I'm guessing the range was something like 1 mile.

Yeah, something like that. That's one of my favorite Red Flag memories.

Edit: The Tornado video above reminded me of a German GR4 doing something similar at a Flag.

Godholio fucked around with this message at 15:03 on Mar 13, 2012

# ? Mar 13, 2012 14:58

PainterofCrap: Oct 17, 2002; hey bebe

Sagebrush posted:

I believe this, because I remember reading in Ben Rich's autobiography (this is the guy who ran the Skunk Works roughly between the U-2 and F-117 eras) that the paint actually turns kind of a steel-blue when the plane is at its cruising speed.

By the way, I highly recommend the book, which I think is just called "Skunk Works". The whole episode surrounding the first real radar tests of the F-117 mockup is excellent. Something about using the McDonnell Douglas range, and Lockheed having to design a stealth pole to put their model on because the model's return was smaller than that of the support it was on, and the McD personnel saying something like "jesus christ, if they can do that with a goddamn POLE, what can they do with their airplane?"

The best part of that story was when they did a radar test on the F-117 mockup & got a return...they wigged out a bit and the McD rep was unimpressed...until they checked visually downrange and found that a bird was sitting on the model.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 17:11

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

Better than that, if I'm remembering right. They got no return, turning up the power more and more, then suddenly a return appeared and the McD guy got all smug and went "ah, there it is,we got it". Turns out the bird had just landed on the model.

There's also a bit about Ben Rich himself walking into a meeting with the DoD procurement people who had serious doubts about whether Lockheed could pull off what they claimed, dumping a sack of half-inch steel balls on the table and going "there, there's your aircraft on radar".

# ? Mar 13, 2012 17:23

3 Action Economist: May 22, 2002; Educate. Agitate. Liberate.

Sagebrush posted:

Better than that, if I'm remembering right. They got no return, turning up the power more and more, then suddenly a return appeared and the McD guy got all smug and went "ah, there it is,we got it". Turns out the bird had just landed on the model.

There's also a bit about Ben Rich himself walking into a meeting with the DoD procurement people who had serious doubts about whether Lockheed could pull off what they claimed, dumping a sack of half-inch steel balls on the table and going "there, there's your aircraft on radar".

I loved that they had to lock up their coffee mugs at the end of the day because they had the nose of a the F-117 drawn on it, sticking out of a cloud.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 19:13

Captain Postal: Sep 16, 2007

MagnumHB posted:

Here's the press release.

posted:

The P-3C fired at Vittoria with AGM-65F Maverick missiles, rendering the 12-meter patrol vessel ineffective

somewhat of an understatement there. Although in the strictest sense of the word, a smoking crater in the water would be combat ineffective so it is technically correct.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 19:22

slidebite: Nov 6, 2005; Good egg

Bugsmasher posted:

Calgary area aviation goons, after a few delays the Antonov 225 is finally scheduled to arrive here this morning at 0901. Track the flight here:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ADB148F

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2012/03/13/calgary-giant-plane-antonov.html

CBC link with a virtually non-existent photo.

Seems its picking up gas equipment for Nigeria.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 19:33

wdarkk: Oct 26, 2007; Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten

Captain Postal posted:

somewhat of an understatement there. Although in the strictest sense of the word, a smoking crater in the water would be combat ineffective so it is technically correct.

Apparently there was enough of the boat left to beach.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 19:36

Dr. Despair: Nov 4, 2009; 39 perfect posts with each roll.

Captain Postal posted:

somewhat of an understatement there. Although in the strictest sense of the word, a smoking crater in the water would be combat ineffective so it is technically correct.

12 meters is a good sized boat, a maverick isn't going to vaporize it.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 20:41

Godholio: Aug 28, 2002; Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

I don't recall seeing this in here yet:

RAF Chinook airshow display

I had to go back and rewatch to make sure that yes, that is a guy hanging out the door waving at the crowd.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 21:04

PREYING MANTITS: Mar 13, 2003; and that's how you get ants.

Bugsmasher posted:

Calgary area aviation goons, after a few delays the Antonov 225 is finally scheduled to arrive here this morning at 0901. Track the flight here:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ADB148F

Hopefully you were able to get some good photos! I haven't seen a 225 but BNA occasionally gets a 124 and that alone is a sight.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 21:13

Bugsmasher: May 3, 2004

PREYING MANTITS posted:

Hopefully you were able to get some good photos! I haven't seen a 225 but BNA occasionally gets a 124 and that alone is a sight.

I got arrival and departure shots, what a sight! Hope to have some ready tonight, will post them here.

# ? Mar 13, 2012 23:01

MrChips: Jun 10, 2005; FLIGHT SAFETY TIP: Fatties out first

Bugsmasher posted:

I got arrival and departure shots, what a sight! Hope to have some ready tonight, will post them here.

I got departure shots, but all I had was my cellphone camera, as I didn't have a spare set of batteries for my proper camera.

The stiff headwind really helped them get off in a hurry; I'd be surprised if they used more than 9000' of runway.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 00:45

Bugsmasher: May 3, 2004

Antonov 225 shots for you all:

Antonov 225 "Mriya" (UR-82060) by BigtimeAa, on Flickr

# ? Mar 14, 2012 00:51

slidebite: Nov 6, 2005; Good egg

That's cool! Thanks for sharing the photos.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 02:42

MA-Horus: Dec 3, 2006; I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how awesome I am.

Goddamn that's one big bitch of an aircraft.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 07:39

PREYING MANTITS: Mar 13, 2003; and that's how you get ants.

Bugsmasher posted:

Antonov 225 shots for you all:

You rock, thanks for sharing! Looks like you got some great photos of it. #2 and #6 are my favorites.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 11:03

Shai-Hulud: Jul 10, 2008; But it feels so right!; Lipstick Apathy

Bugsmasher posted:

Antonov 225 shots for you all:

drat. I see AN-124 pretty much every day. But that thing is a big loving airplane.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 14:57

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

Great shots! I wonder...do you think they use it like another An-124, or only for things the 124 can't carry?

# ? Mar 14, 2012 18:35

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

I think they mostly use it to carry the same kinds of things that a 124 could carry, but more of them at once. There can't be that many cases where you have a single object that is more than 36m long or weighs more than 160 tons, the limits for the 124.

That said, Wikipedia says that the 225 has carried a pair of 46-meter wind turbine blades (world's longest air cargo) and a 189-ton generator (heaviest) so there's that.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 18:42

Rent-A-Cop: Oct 15, 2004; I posted my food for USPOL Thanksgiving!

Guy makes the list for Admiral despite whacking a USAF F-4 with a sidewinder. The intelligence community is awesome.

Washington Times posted:

When Lt. j.g. Timothy W. Dorsey intentionally fired his fighter jet's missile at an Air Force reconnaissance plane, nearly killing its two aviators and destroying the aircraft during a training exercise, it was hard to imagine then how his Navy career would wind up 25 years later.

The official investigation into the 1987 shoot-down said the F-14 pilot's decision "raises substantial doubt as to his capacity for good, sound judgment." The Navy banned him from flying its aircraft.

Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta this month announced to the Senate several nominations for promotion to admiral.

On the list is Navy Reserve Capt. Timothy W. Dorsey, the same man who, while assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, committed what the report said was an "illogical act."

Capt. Dorsey today is the inspector general for Navy Reserve Detachment 106 in Norfolk, Va.

His promotion to admiral has some in the aviation community shaking their heads, especially because minor discretions by flight officers over the past decades have resulted in reprimands and the ends of careers.

Lawyer Charles Gittins, a former Marine Corps aviator, has represented several naval officers whose careers were ended for what he considered minor misconduct.

"It is shocking that the Navy would promote an officer with this background to flag rank, particularly in an environment where the Navy relieves commanding officers of their commands at the drop of a hat for trivial or insubstantial reasons," Mr. Gittins told The Washington Times.

Capt. Dorsey's father, James Dorsey, was at the time of the incident commander of the carrier USS America and an aviator. A year later, he became assistant deputy chief of naval operations at the Pentagon and later attained three-star vice admiral rank.

In his civilian job, Capt. Dorsey is general counsel at USA Discounters in Virginia Beach.

He said Thursday that he did not want to discuss the shoot-down or his career because he is about to take a Navy Reserve intelligence post.

"I'm going to have to decline to talk right now, based on the kind of job I'm going to be taking," he said. "I'm not really big on talking to press for anything.

"It means heading up some intel factions. So it's really not something I would typically do. I [would] rather not see my name in the paper at all right now because of the job I'm getting ready to take. A lack of press is good on what I'm getting ready to do."

Capt. Dorsey kept his Navy career on track by reinventing himself, first as a Reserve intelligence officer and then as an inspector general in charge of investigating wrongdoing. In 1995, he earned a law degree from the University of Richmond.

A 2010 alumni magazine profile says Capt. Dorsey "has endured countless physical and mental tests in his 47 years - first, as a fighter pilot flying F-14 Tomcats, and later during the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq as an intelligence officer interrogating prisoners."

"I've been through naval aviation training, survival training and a dual-degree program in college," he told the magazine, "and nothing came close to the rigors of first-year law."

The flattering profile does not mention what Capt. Dorsey did in 1987 as a rookie Tomcat pilot, with 245 flying hours, in one of the naval air community's most embarrassing incidents.

Then-Lt. Dorsey was taking part in a non-fire flight exercise over the Mediterranean Sea.

He was given a command to simulate a missile firing but took it literally, armed his Sidewinder missile without telling his back-seat radar intercept officer, and shot down the Air Force plane. Its two aviators ejected moments before the plane exploded.

The Navy's 1988 investigative report on Lt. Dorsey was blunt and damning, according to the Associated Press, which obtained a copy via the Freedom of Information Act in 1988. It said Lt. Dorsey knew the plane was "friendly" and knew he was on a routine exercise.

"The September 22, 1987, destruction of USAF RF-4C was not the result of an accident, but the consequence of a deliberate act," the investigator wrote. "His subsequent reaction [to the radio command] demonstrated an absolute disregard of the known facts and circumstances.

"He failed to utilize the decision-making process taught in replacement training and reacted in a purely mechanical manner. The performance of Lieutenant Timothy W. Dorsey on September 22, 1987, raises substantial doubt as to his capacity for good, sound judgment."

Vice Adm. Kendall E. Moranville, who had headed the 6th Fleet, said: "We necessarily rely on the self-discipline and judgment of pilots to prevent such incidents; we have no other choice. Nothing, in my opinion, can mitigate Lieutenant Dorsey's basic error in judgment."

Jon Ault, a retired F-14 pilot, said Capt. Dorsey never took responsibility.

"I would never have guessed he'd ever make it to commander, much less admiral," he said. "In fact, I thought his career was over back when the shoot-down happened. He refused to accept any blame for the shoot-down and swore he was just following [rules of engagement] even though he knew it was a friendly. I mean, the guy did it on purpose."

# ? Mar 14, 2012 21:10

slidebite: Nov 6, 2005; Good egg

I've always heard there was some animosity between AF and Naval aviators, but that's a little extreme.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 21:13

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

quote:

Then-Lt. Dorsey was taking part in a non-fire flight exercise over the Mediterranean Sea.

He was given a command to simulate a missile firing but took it literally, armed his Sidewinder missile without telling his back-seat radar intercept officer, and shot down the Air Force plane. Its two aviators ejected moments before the plane exploded.

Geez, I'd love to hear the justification he gave as to why he armed a live missile while participating in a training exercise. A training exercise over the Mediterranean, for that matter. Who did he think he was shooting at, the Egyptians?

# ? Mar 14, 2012 21:19

Acid Reflux: Oct 18, 2004

Imagine my surprise this morning when I rolled in to work (BGR) and that behemoth of an airplane is down at the other end of the runway! They apparently landed at around 9 last night, I wasn't able to get a flight plan to see when they're leaving again. I also didn't have a camera with me.

Good to see that big bastard again though, first time it's been through here in several years. We have AN-124s here all the time, so the novelty of those has kind of worn off.

One of the guys who had never seen it before kept muttering "That's just stupid big. Stupid big. drat."

# ? Mar 14, 2012 22:10

helno: Jun 19, 2003; hmm now were did I leave that plane

Canada really loves those big russian planes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6bKCsJd2K0

I got to see the AN 225 when I was a wee lad in the aircadets. It was parked in baggotville while I was on an "air experience" flight in a C130. The C130 pilot joked that its cargo was just a pallet of vodka for the prime minister.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 22:52

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Sagebrush posted:

Geez, I'd love to hear the justification he gave as to why he armed a live missile while participating in a training exercise. A training exercise over the Mediterranean, for that matter. Who did he think he was shooting at, the Egyptians?

Why'd they even *load* a live missile during a training exercise? Aren't there...you know, exercise rounds for that purpose? Every single Apache I've ever seen on the line at Rucker or Huntsville has dummy Hellfires on the rails, not real ones.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 23:16

iyaayas01: Feb 19, 2010; Perry'd

Sagebrush posted:

Geez, I'd love to hear the justification he gave as to why he armed a live missile while participating in a training exercise. A training exercise over the Mediterranean, for that matter. Who did he think he was shooting at, the Egyptians?

Yeah, this is one I've never understood...I can understand confusion about the ROE when dealing with an unidentified aircraft, I can understand failure to interpret the situation correctly (Iran Air 655/Vincennes), I can understand communication and C2 issues between different areas, like CIC and the dudes actually doing the firing (the Saratoga accidentally schwacking that Turkish frigate), but this is a special level of stupid. You knew the aircraft was friendly (hell, he tailed it coming off of the USAF tanker it hit prior to starting the exercise), you knew it was a training exercise, keep your hands off the loving Master Arm switch. Problem solved.

Phanatic posted:

Why'd they even *load* a live missile during a training exercise? Aren't there...you know, exercise rounds for that purpose? Every single Apache I've ever seen on the line at Rucker or Huntsville has dummy Hellfires on the rails, not real ones.

My understanding is that the aircraft that Dorsey was in was the actual Alert 5 jet or whatever, so it was loaded up for bear due to the real world mission it had. I dunno about the Navy, but the AF is now very clear that you will not fly mixed loads of live and training munitions, and you will only fly live munitions during a mission where you plan on employing those munitions (either real world or a live fire training exercise)...this was after there were a couple of similar blue on blue screwups, but nothing as egregious as this.

# ? Mar 14, 2012 23:27

Nebakenezzer: Sep 13, 2005; The Mote in God's Eye

helno posted:

Canada really loves those big russian planes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6bKCsJd2K0

I got to see the AN 225 when I was a wee lad in the aircadets. It was parked in baggotville while I was on an "air experience" flight in a C130. The C130 pilot joked that its cargo was just a pallet of vodka for the prime minister.

This isn't the first time an An-124 slid off the runway at Gander, either.

In the crash above, it was much more serious. they tried to land in miserable weather, and the runway was 1) the shorter one and 2) a big sheet of ice. They were heavily loaded and just landed on the other side of where they could safely land given all those conditions. The resulting crash "wrote off" the plane; and I say this in quotes as apparently somebody figured at the time it was not worth fixing it.

So it was stripped of engines and avionics, and left on a deserted apron. (Ramp? I always get those confused.) There it sat for at least a year, until apparently the market for heavy lift cargo picked up again. The story I was told was that the engineers and mechanics flew in, reinstalled everything to make it just airworthy again (up to and including patching holes with duct tape) and in what I can only think of as a quintessentially Russian incentive plan, had the engineers fly back to the factory in the plane they just fixed.

e: also

quote:

"I've been through naval aviation training, survival training and a dual-degree program in college," he told the magazine, "and nothing came close to the rigors of first-year law."

This is the first time I've ever seen someone talk about first year law school like it was the Navy SEALs or something :stare:

# ? Mar 14, 2012 23:44

Godholio: Aug 28, 2002; Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

quote:

He refused to accept any blame for the shoot-down and swore he was just following [rules of engagement] even though he knew it was a friendly.

Jesus Christ. How did he not go to prison? In an F-14 there's no loving way he should be able to mis-ID a goddamn Phantom, even in 1987.

Edit: And at WVR distance. :psyduck:

Edit2: V Ah. Yeah, that'll do it.

Godholio fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Mar 15, 2012

# ? Mar 15, 2012 00:03

Howdy: Jan 25, 2005

yes, it was "reinventing himself" that kept his career on track. Definitely nothing to do with daddy being a carrier commander and eventual three-star. Nooooo sir.

# ? Mar 15, 2012 00:08

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

posting this from the inside of an air plane :whatup:

edit: Unfortunately the widespread adoption of WiFi throughout Delta's fleet is making it easier and easier for my work to find me.

# ? Mar 15, 2012 00:24

Sagebrush: Feb 26, 2012

Godholio posted:

Jesus Christ. How did he not go to prison? In an F-14 there's no loving way he should be able to mis-ID a goddamn Phantom, even in 1987.

Edit: And at WVR distance.

Well, we all know how those older IFF systems can be

But yeah, I just truly can't fathom what would cause someone to do that. Like, even if it actually was the Russkies rocketing out of a space-time vortex on their way to dispense communism all over the western world, shouldn't he have, I dunno, confirmed what he heard as an order to release a live missile during a training exercise? Particularly against a plane that he must have seen dozens of times, or even communicated with, participating in the exercise itself?

# ? Mar 15, 2012 00:28

movax: Aug 30, 2008

I posted this over in TFR:

quote:

Goodnight, sweet scrap-metal princes

quote:
F-111s, C-5s, F-15s, C-130s, S-3s, A-4s, F-14s, H-53s, F-4s and C-141s being sold for scrap

The Pentagon has asked Government Liquidation, an Arizona company, to scrap aircraft store at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base.

Sagebrush: what is that pic from? I want to say Simpsons for some reason.

# ? Mar 15, 2012 04:34

Alereon: Feb 6, 2004; Dehumanize yourself and face to Trumpshed; College Slice

Sagebrush posted:

But yeah, I just truly can't fathom what would cause someone to do that. Like, even if it actually was the Russkies rocketing out of a space-time vortex on their way to dispense communism all over the western world, shouldn't he have, I dunno, confirmed what he heard as an order to release a live missile during a training exercise? Particularly against a plane that he must have seen dozens of times, or even communicated with, participating in the exercise itself?

Is the investigation report publicly available anywhere? I'm highly skeptical that he actually intended to shoot down the plane, versus mindlessly carrying out the order to fire by launching a live missile. Remember that BART cop that shot the guy in the back because he grabbed his gun instead of his Taser?

# ? Mar 15, 2012 05:52

Godholio: Aug 28, 2002; Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Nobody gives a command to fire. At best he got the authorization to fire, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the pilot...likewise, in a self-defense situation he could fire without authorization. Standing US ROE is that the right of self defense will never be denied.

Edit: Well, there are a couple of very very specific times where a pilot will be directed to fire, but it's unlikely this falls under those situations. And for an exercise they probably wouldn't have used the normal verbage.

Godholio fucked around with this message at 07:11 on Mar 15, 2012

# ? Mar 15, 2012 07:09

KYOON GRIFFEY JR: Apr 12, 2010; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

Alereon posted:

Is the investigation report publicly available anywhere? I'm highly skeptical that he actually intended to shoot down the plane, versus mindlessly carrying out the order to fire by launching a live missile. Remember that BART cop that shot the guy in the back because he grabbed his gun instead of his Taser?

This is ascribing an optimistically high degree of validity to that BART cop's story.

# ? Mar 15, 2012 13:13

Dufrane: Jun 6, 2002

Exi7wound posted:

We were on our way to Lemoore when I remembered that bird was sitting out there. My wife had never seen a Blackbird first hand, so it was an essential side-trip.

It's a little sad really... it's been out in the sun for well over a decade now, paint is chipping and faded, a little rust here and there, and of course the power plants have been removed. Always impressive, but a little less so than when I saw it for the first time way back when.

I wonder if the SR-71 at March AFB is fairing any better?

March ARB has moved it inside its hanger now. My wife is in the Cal Air National Guard and is their photographer and did the photo shoot of the move. I will ask her for some pics to post.

http://www.march.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123268901

Dufrane fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Mar 15, 2012

# ? Mar 15, 2012 19:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 23, 2024 17:13

iyaayas01: Feb 19, 2010; Perry'd

Godholio posted:

Nobody gives a command to fire. At best he got the authorization to fire, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the pilot...likewise, in a self-defense situation he could fire without authorization. Standing US ROE is that the right of self defense will never be denied.

Edit: Well, there are a couple of very very specific times where a pilot will be directed to fire, but it's unlikely this falls under those situations. And for an exercise they probably wouldn't have used the normal verbage.

Yeah, my understanding of the situation was that he was given authorization to fire (in the context of the exercise) by the controllers on the E-2 or the carrier or whatever and then his backseater may have said something along the lines of "cleared to shoot" (or whatever the proper phrasing would be...again, in the context of the exercise) and that everyone assumed that since he was a Navy pilot he wasn't a complete blithering idiot and he therefore wouldn't actually flip Master Arm to ARM and shoot a live missile since it was a loving training exercise, that he would instead simulate firing the missile...unfortunately for everyone involved that was a bad assumption and he did his BEEP BOOP I AM A ROBOT routine.

iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Mar 15, 2012

# ? Mar 15, 2012 22:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Aeronautical Insanity: switching to secondary tolerances

«‹›2233 »