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quote:Drove it home without the belt (I was 3 blocks away, and the engine was cold when I started, so no waterpump, no fan, no alternator, and no power steering sucked but wasn't going to break anything) Can somebody tell me why they still use belts for this type of thing rather than just sealed gears/chains?
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Apr 7, 2012 22:28
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Rorac posted:Can somebody tell me why they still use belts for this type of thing rather than just sealed gears/chains? I would assume it its to isolate and cushion failures of the various parts., you don't want a seized alternator damaging your water pump, and you really don't want the entire thing stopping abruptly when 1 part fails.
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Apr 7, 2012 22:54
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And a belt is relatively cheap, parts and labor. Would you rather replace a belt and a seized AC compressor, or clean shredded metal out of a gear-drive system when one of the components seizes up? Not to mention engineering a low TCO gear drive system for accessories and such. An external chain wouldn't be as long-loved as a belt, at least not without lubrication. Look at motorcycle drive chains vs drive belts for this.
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Apr 7, 2012 23:04
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jamal posted:maybe it's not such a good idea to use cheap knock-off suspension and steering parts: Zing indeed. What was it, I can't make out the brand/model?
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Apr 8, 2012 01:44
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Lord Gaga posted:I am not an expert but there shouldnt be galvanic corrosion between a steel bolt and an a probably high silicon cast aluminum alternator housing. Especially since most automotive bolts are coated but even if theyre not. Shouldn't, perhaps. But what should happen and what does are often two different things. I had a similar issue with the subie motor in my VW with intake manifold bolts. I had to cover it with penetrating oil and even then as I was undoing it and replacing it I was doing it to the chant of "mother ...uurrrrgh... fucker ...uuurrrgh... mother... uurghhh... fucker" because dammit those bolts didn't want to move. The only possible reason I could see was some kind of galvanic reaction. The bolt threads reflected this too. I still think I was really lucky not to shear them off.
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Apr 8, 2012 01:58
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You Am I posted:Zing indeed. What was it, I can't make out the brand/model? Gonna guess 240
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Apr 8, 2012 02:02
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Method Loser posted:Gonna guess 240 1st generation, judging by the headlights.
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Apr 8, 2012 03:07
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Hello Spaceman posted:Looks fine from here. Alfa Romeo Giulia 2-litre - pretty trick motor with programmable distributor, etc.  I can't even begin to imagine how that must of sounded. Wow.
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Apr 8, 2012 03:17
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Lord Gaga posted:I am not an expert but there shouldnt be galvanic corrosion between a steel bolt and an a probably high silicon cast aluminum alternator housing. Especially since most automotive bolts are coated but even if theyre not. shouldn't be... maybe. Was there? you bet your rear end there was! It was so jammed in place by gobs of white aluminum oxide that even heating it cherry red with my oxy torch and trying to turn it with vise grips set as tight as I could with both hands simply scraped all the threads off the bolt where I was grabbing it. e: I looked up the galvanic series in seawater (yay northeastern salted roads...) and steel is four steps up from aluminum, so aluminum will corrode, producing gobs of oxide that ends up packing into the threads like an all-natural loctite. Also - it's the AC compressor bracket, not the alternator. The alternator is also a bitch and a half to change, but only because it's stuck between the radiator fan, frame rail, AC compressor, engine mount, and engine block. Takes a regular houdini to get the drat thing out of there even after you finally unbolt it. Horse Divorce posted:I have to know, is this a jeep? It looks just like my XJ. close! Good eye, it's on my rusted out POS '91 MJ. That bracket is off a '96 or later XJ because I converted to the later belt tensioner and routing since I hated the '95 and earlier "loosen power steering box bracket bolts and adjust" mechanism. Rorac posted:Can somebody tell me why they still use belts for this type of thing rather than just sealed gears/chains? I'd really rather have all the mostly nonessential things (power steering, AC, alternator, water pump, fan) on belts - way easier to change and I like the belt to shred instead of stripping gears and causing real chaos if one of the above seizes up. Some of those are a lot more important than others, I'd really rather have a few belts, one for each group (fan and WP on one, power steering / AC / alternator on another, or preferably power steering and alternator on their own and AC by itself) but it's pretty tough to fit that many pulleys and belts into the front of a modern vehicle, space is at a premium. I can get home without power steering, and can get home without an alternator if I'm within about an hour and a half driving distance. Getting home without a fan might work in winter, but the bearings in those brackets very rarely fail so who cares (mine lasted around 250 thousand miles and 21 years) so that's ok to put with the water pump... water pump is probably the most important thing to me on the accessory belt. Another reason they use a single belt - cost. Easier and cheaper to assemble, fewer parts, etc. kastein fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 07:45
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kastein posted:heating it cherry red with my oxy torch and trying to turn it with vise grips set as tight as I could with both hands When the aluminum heats up like that it'll start oxidizing and probably snug your bolt up a bit more.
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Apr 8, 2012 08:18
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kastein posted:e: I looked up the galvanic series in seawater (yay northeastern salted roads...) and steel is four steps up from aluminum, so aluminum will corrode, producing gobs of oxide that ends up packing into the threads like an all-natural loctite. It does seems like it would be a relatively cheap solution to just attach magnesium or zinc beads in strategic locations to act as sacrificial anodes, however.
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Apr 8, 2012 08:28
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Alereon, thanks for the info - makes sense. I guess something went wrong, that bracket came off my 94 parts jeep and was horribly corroded around the bolts, while the original one off my 91 was drat near clean and the bolts came out without a fight.thecobra posted:When the aluminum heats up like that it'll start oxidizing and probably snug your bolt up a bit more. It really was a lost cause anyways IMO, there was so much aluminum oxide packed in there already that I couldn't even see the base of the bolt till I scraped it away from the threads with a knife.
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Apr 8, 2012 08:56
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Blammo http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vxeIFoDRub8 e: "Hmmmm, there was a bang and a whole shitload of fire came out of that hole. Yes, I should definitely stick my head in there." 2ndclasscitizen fucked around with this message at 13:36 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 12:56
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2ndclasscitizen posted:Blammo http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vxeIFoDRub8 Alereon posted:It's not a matter of "steps", it's a matter of the difference in the Anodic index, or the electrochemical voltage produced. Steel and Aluminum have an Anodic index difference of 0.05-0.10v, while up to 0.15v is considered safe for a harsh environment (salt water). That doesn't mean you won't see corrosion, it just means you're not seeing significant galvanic corrosion, per se. sharkytm fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Apr 8, 2012 |
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Apr 8, 2012 13:04
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2ndclasscitizen posted:Blammo http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vxeIFoDRub8 hahahaha I love it. "No dude we don't need no fire extinguisher just back away. I got this I got this. Whew! See dude I told you I got thiBOOOOOOM!! Ok we need the fire extinguisher."
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Apr 8, 2012 13:41
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sharkytm posted:Hate to tell you this, but they use aluminium anodes to project steel bulkheads, and I can tell you from first hand experience that steel with corrode aluminium. I work on an aluminum boat, and we get pitting from the steel rivet mandrels that get left on deck.
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Apr 8, 2012 17:08
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InitialDave posted:You could have just said "Land Rovers".
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Apr 8, 2012 20:33
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sharkytm posted:Or "oceanographer" Or "anyone in the navy"
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Apr 8, 2012 22:00
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sharkytm posted:Hate to tell you this, but they use aluminium anodes to project steel bulkheads, and I can tell you from first hand experience that steel with corrode aluminium. I work on an aluminum boat, and we get pitting from the steel rivet mandrels that get left on deck.
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Apr 9, 2012 00:09
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Alereon posted:Aluminum is a perfectly functional sacrificial anode for stainless steel, with a difference of the Anodic index of 0.30-0.45V. Might that be the difference?
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Apr 9, 2012 01:41
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sharkytm posted:The Wikipedia article liked earlier shows aluminum anodes.
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Apr 9, 2012 02:22
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Does this count?
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Apr 9, 2012 02:44
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I saw that when it was first posted but hadn't followed up on the aftermath. That is an amazing photo no matter how you cut it.
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Apr 9, 2012 02:46
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Dr 14 INCH DICK Md posted:I saw that when it was first posted but hadn't followed up on the aftermath. That is an amazing photo no matter how you cut it. And yes, that's an amazing photo. This one hasn't made the rounds so much, but is another good one:  Also, when pilots eject, the canopy falls back to earth, too. grover fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Apr 9, 2012 |
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Apr 9, 2012 02:50
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The safety cone sells it for me.
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Apr 9, 2012 02:52
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Alereon posted:I don't want to pretend to be some sort of anodic protection expert, but I've always heard of Magnesium and Zinc being used to protect mild steel, though based on the anodic series Aluminum would work to protect stainless steel. Zink is used to protect steel boats. If you have a ground leak it'll keep the boat from eating holes in itself. Also if you're in a harbor that has ground leaks with lots of stray current in the water, it'll protect the steel. I've seen 30lbs zinks be eaten up in one season in a badly wired harbor. Also, there are different grades of zink/alloys for different applications. It's a slightly different mix for fresh water use. Also for aluminum boats, there's a special mix.
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Apr 9, 2012 03:11
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2ndclasscitizen posted:Blammo http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vxeIFoDRub8  I love that the hood is 10 feet in the air and people havent even noticed the boom and moved yet.
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Apr 9, 2012 03:28
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Since we're talking about mechanical failures leading to fiery crashes; it's amazing how a broken rear control arm can lead to one of the most NASCAR wrecks in history: Juan Pablo Montoya crashes into a Jet Track Dryer Root Bear fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Apr 9, 2012 |
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Apr 9, 2012 03:36
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Root Bear posted:Since we're talking about mechanical failures leading to fiery crashes; it's amazing how a broken rear control arm can lead to one of the most That was a pivotal moment in my life.
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Apr 9, 2012 03:56
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front wing flexing posted:That was a pivotal moment in my life. It was something I'll never forget. I haven't watched a race in years, and just happened to be at a friends house the night that happened. My mind was blown by the craziness of it all. It was like something out of a Micheal Bay movie.
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Apr 9, 2012 04:07
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SGT. Squeaks posted:It was something I'll never forget. I haven't watched a race in years, and just happened to be at a friends house the night that happened. My mind was blown by the craziness of it all. It was like something out of a Micheal Bay movie. This was the first Nascar race I've ever watched from start to finish. They did it to hook me  .
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Apr 9, 2012 05:54
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Root Bear posted:Since we're talking about mechanical failures leading to fiery crashes; it's amazing how a broken rear control arm can lead to one of the most Was there in person. It was pretty awesome once we all realized JPM wasn't dead.
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Apr 9, 2012 07:10
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2ndclasscitizen posted: Mad tyte camber yoWatched the Nascar wreck video and was amazed how long the jet fuel burned.
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Apr 10, 2012 00:16
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 "i was riding home form work on the river trail.... and then all of a sudden, i heard a loud twangy snap and everything got kinda wobbly."
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Apr 10, 2012 00:40
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Powershift posted:I would assume it its to isolate and cushion failures of the various parts., you don't want a seized alternator damaging your water pump, and you really don't want the entire thing stopping abruptly when 1 part fails. Well, it has been done to a limited extent before - the GenII small-block Chevy (LT1/LT4) had a water pump driven off of the cam. Never heard of a catastrophic failure on the drive side of it, but the fuckers do leak like a sieve...right onto the water-sensitive Optispark! That said, a lot of cars now have electric power steering; it's easier to package, and reduces parasitic losses considerably since now you're only loading the alternator when you're actually turning, instead of loading the belt drive all the time. I think many hybrids run the A/C compressor on electricity as well so that you still get cooling with the engine off. The water pump could be electrified either with more voltage, or maybe direct driven like that LT1, and then your only belt is the alternator.
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Apr 10, 2012 00:59
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IOwnCalculus posted:Well, it has been done to a limited extent before - the GenII small-block Chevy (LT1/LT4) had a water pump driven off of the cam. Never heard of a catastrophic failure on the drive side of it, but the fuckers do leak like a sieve...right onto the water-sensitive Optispark! BMW switched to electric water pumps on E90s and possibly other models as well.
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Apr 10, 2012 01:01
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Crustashio posted:BMW switched to electric water pumps on E90s and possibly other models as well. Do they use a thermostat still? Or just regulate the temperature by controlling the speed of the pump? I've always wondered about that.
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Apr 10, 2012 01:08
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NuclearFusi0n posted:
I did that to two different seat tubes -- clean break -- back in the early 2000s. Gary Fisher can kiss my rear end.
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Apr 10, 2012 02:56
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nm posted:I did that to two different seat tubes -- clean break -- back in the early 2000s. Gary Fisher can kiss my rear end. My stepuncle was riding in a triathlon and the local cops hosed up and let a truck onto a street that was part of the course. Uncle's coming down a hill, he looks up to see a truck grill. He broke the frame of the bike with his femurs. Docs told him that if he'd had a stronger frame he'd have had two broken thighs.
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Apr 10, 2012 03:01
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I did that same thing to the swingarm of my gary fischer hi-fi pro. Got a new trek fuel 7 frame for free out of it (it was less than 9 months after I bought the gary fischer)
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Apr 10, 2012 14:17
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