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Piano posted:The ae86 has this weird reputation, marketing wise, in the sense that the stock version was a joke and it needed a few grand worth of junk to really 'unlock' the potential. That sentiment probably doesn't sell cars but at the same time I have no idea what the average person (who even knows what it is) thinks about the 86. It's sort of the same weird limbo that the 2jz engine existed in for years, sort of a decent but run of the mill engine that could reliably be stretched to twice the rated power if desired. I think a lot of it is simply because it marked the end of an era and the beginning of the end for small, affordable RWD cars. Also animes.
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Apr 14, 2012 00:10
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Cream_Filling posted:I think a lot of it is simply because it marked the end of an era and the beginning of the end for small, affordable RWD cars. Also animes. 100% anime. I knew a guy in high school that had a RED SUNS sticker on his FC RX7, I had no idea what it meant, and now that I know, its even funnier that I made fun of him for it.
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Apr 14, 2012 00:20
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Piano posted:The ae86 has this weird reputation, marketing wise, in the sense that the stock version was a joke and it needed a few grand worth of junk to really 'unlock' the potential. Not when it was new, it didnt. It was a very good little car for it's day standard - the entire market had almost moved to FWD and the Sprinter was all that was left in easily affordable RWD small car fun. It was well known to be better than the FWD alternatives, stock. Maybe 30 years later it shows it's age, but look at the pitiful 30 year old FWD's that are forgotten and rotting in scrap yards while the Sprinter is prized even as a stock car. Actually probably even more as a stock car given how rare that is. Stock version was never a joke. And it still isnt, it's still a more than competent little car, which given that 30 years old is a drat good statement just how good it really was. There were many words of lament when Toyota went FWD with the Sprinter...... many MANY words. Quite a few harsh ones thrown into the mix. quote:100% anime. Group A, GroupN, Rally, circuit...... yeah it was all anime 
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Apr 14, 2012 00:21
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To be fair there's a guy at work who's reading up everything he can on the new toyobaru and wishes he could find an old AE-86 solely because of Initial D. This is a person who has never owned a rwd car in his life but makes fun of everyone who buys a fwd car, no matter their reasons or preferences.
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Apr 14, 2012 00:39
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Cat Terrist posted:
I think this is a mostly American centric viewpoint since that kind of stuff isn't nearly as popular over here.
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Apr 14, 2012 00:48
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I just think that, even in the context of car guys having way overblown picky opinions about these things, you have to draw the line somewhere and there are specific things about the ae86 like the ~100 ft lb spring rates [citation needed] that can't be ignored even with a reasonably subjective viewpoint.
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Apr 14, 2012 02:12
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Cream_Filling posted:I don't think anyone's saying that, though. I think they're saying that this is a case where the interests of them as consumers are different from the interests of Toyota the company because most consumers don't give two wet shits about the profitability or reputation of the Scion nameplate whereas Toyota naturally does. If given the free choice between Toyota and Scion badging, with absolutely zero impact on cost, I bet a majority of buyers would prefer the Toyota badge. I don't think the average consumer would be willing to pay much more than $100 to be given the choice, so it's a tiny sacrifice, but I do feel that it's still an extremely minor instance where Toyota is working against consumer preference to polish their corporate turds. Again, their actual sales losses due to badging are probably tiny, and in the end it's just something we'll have to accept in exchange for making the car available in the first place, but I can understand why people would idly wish that the car was offered under both nameplates even though they almost always share dealerships anyway. I will not give a penny to Scion, a brand that exists only in America* purely as a pandering, cynical marketing ploy.  The drat car is a Toyota GT-86 everywhere else in the world. So Subaru it is. *Canada got splashed by some of the afterbirth smooth jazz fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Apr 14, 2012 |
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Apr 14, 2012 05:33
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smooth jazz posted:I will not give a penny to Scion, a brand that exists only in America* purely as a pandering, cynical marketing ploy. By that logic you shouldn't buy an Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti.
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Apr 14, 2012 05:51
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But why buy a retromod ae86 playing dressup as a Subaru instead of the Toyota Motor one? The BRZ is a retro car with no historical basis and has Toyostink all over it. Wait a few years for the 1986 Subaru XT inspired retro coupe succeeding the Breeze.
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Apr 14, 2012 05:56
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Rabble posted:By that logic you shouldn't buy an Acura, Lexus, or Infiniti. Flawed logic, sure. But Scion really rubs me the wrong way. Gen Why: Buried under student debt? Erosion of the middle class got ya down? Baby boomers destroy the planet and all hope for the future? >>SCION<< INSPIRATION COMES STANDARD.
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Apr 14, 2012 06:05
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Are you sure it's the Toyota execs who are the cynics?
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Apr 14, 2012 06:24
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smooth jazz posted:I will not give a penny to Scion, a brand that exists only in America* purely as a pandering, cynical marketing ploy. Because other brands were never designed to appeal to an image and push a product.
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Apr 14, 2012 06:34
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smooth jazz posted:Flawed logic, sure. But Scion really rubs me the wrong way. Isn't the average age of a Scion buyer 47? To me Scion seems to be marketed to middle age people that want to be "stylish" and "hip".
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Apr 14, 2012 07:06
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Even if you target a car to 20 somethings your mean purchase age will be way higher just because of the distribution of car buyers.
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Apr 14, 2012 14:29
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I think people buy scions because they are cheap. Better then buying a cobalt or kia rio.
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Apr 14, 2012 15:47
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Elephanthead posted:Better then buying a cobalt or kia rio. But how long will that last? It seems like Toyota and (even more) Honda are resting on their prior accomplishments, and taking advantage of being a sort of default choice for many/most people. What worked when American and Korean cars were low-quality won't work now that they're able to compete on both price and quality. I suspect this complacency will come and bite Toyota in the rear end. As evidenced by the GT-86 (and all their trucks, and some of their SUVs), Toyota clearly can come up with a good, inspiring product when they put their minds to it -- so why do they seem to churn out boring sedan after boring sedan?
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Apr 14, 2012 16:25
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Wow, this car that they sell hundreds of thousands of every year is mad boring! I wonder why they would even bother?!
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Apr 14, 2012 16:28
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Piano posted:The ae86 has this weird reputation, marketing wise, in the sense that the stock version was a joke and it needed a few grand worth of junk to really 'unlock' the potential. That sentiment probably doesn't sell cars but at the same time I have no idea what the average person (who even knows what it is) thinks about the 86. It's sort of the same weird limbo that the 2jz engine existed in for years, sort of a decent but run of the mill engine that could reliably be stretched to twice the rated power if desired. The stock version was not a joke, it was a very well balanced cheap car, at a time when almost all cars (except luxury and high price machines) were going FWD, it was this, swan song kinda thing. Also, unlike other rwd machines it was a tough loving car, it didn't break down as often as the british and was not a hipster/douchy car like the oh- so over rated E30 BMW's. Maybe is an american thing, but we could always import these cars here and trough the years swapping the engine for a 20v silver and blacktops (cheap engines mind you, not a "few grand") meant, not that the car was bad, but that it could be so much better than it was before. Perhaps is because the BMW purists are neck and neck with the Porsche air-cooled "purists" as the most insufferable, annoying and snotty enthusiasts around but I think the AE86 is a preferable car to any E30 BMW (except for the M3). For me the Toyota GT86 means a car that I can actually own in the future, it ticks all the boxes: - Mustangs are huge, feeble machines, they eat tires, fuel and pads, also questionable reliability and horrible resale value, also not really that of a special car, (v6 mustangs) - 350Z/370Z's are kinda heavy, thirsty and a bit unreliable. - Hyundai Genesis Coupe might as well be unicorns in my part of the world. I love the idea of a car that wont eat its tires, pads and fuel after a few laps because of the weight, a Toyota so it keeps the value and looks just right. The BRZ appeals more to me as a I love Subaru but the scarcity will be a factor when it comes to price. mulligan fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Apr 14, 2012 |
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Apr 14, 2012 16:35
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Also, I don't get why americans hate Toyota/Lexus so much. My brother has an IS350 that I've been driving for a while and it seems like such a good car... it has insane attention to detail, it goes like stink and look so elegant and balanced. Again, it could be over exposure to Jalopnik, but Lexus has a soul, it just that "soul" needs to be fed with the money from GS/LS/RX money, just as the darling of all cars makers, Porsche, does with the Cayenne.
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Apr 14, 2012 16:40
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PT6A posted:As evidenced by the GT-86 (and all their trucks, and some of their SUVs), Toyota clearly can come up with a good, inspiring product when they put their minds to it -- so why do they seem to churn out boring sedan after boring sedan? Because much like all car companies they are actually designed to be profitable.
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Apr 14, 2012 16:46
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Because much like all car companies they are actually designed to be profitable. What happens when they're forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired? Hyundais are getting better and better, and they look loving amazing compared to anything Toyota has produced lately. The new Ford Fusion with the Aston-Martin-style grille looks great, and by the accounts I've heard so far of the European version, performs admirably for what it is. Same with the Focus. Boring is no longer a price that must be paid for a practical car, and if Toyota doesn't figure that out soon, they're soon not going to be profitable.
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Apr 14, 2012 17:17
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PT6A posted:What happens when they're forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired? Hyundais are getting better and better, and they look loving amazing compared to anything Toyota has produced lately. The new Ford Fusion with the Aston-Martin-style grille looks great, and by the accounts I've heard so far of the European version, performs admirably for what it is. Same with the Focus. But so far Toyota has been able to keep up with the competitors. We have been shown that they can innovate when they need to and actually respond to demand rather than churn out SUV after SUV. Who cares though, if Hyundai comes and takes their top spot then that's how it'll be.
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Apr 14, 2012 17:27
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PT6A posted:What happens when they're forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired? The fault in your logic is that they have been forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired. The Camry has been the best selling mid-size for years, fending off numerous quality competitors like the Accord, Altima and Mazda 6. You think a monolith like Toyota is going to be toppled because Ford got their poo poo back together and Hyundai made one generation of decent automobiles?
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Apr 14, 2012 17:53
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PT6A posted:What happens when they're forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired? Hyundais are getting better and better, and they look loving amazing compared to anything Toyota has produced lately. The new Ford Fusion with the Aston-Martin-style grille looks great, and by the accounts I've heard so far of the European version, performs admirably for what it is. Same with the Focus. I was enraptured by the Focus, too, until I sat in it and realized the huge center console takes up tons of leg room, the arm/shoulder room is restricted on the right driver's side by a giant armrest/console area, and the back seat is quite small. Now the Corolla is obviously behind the class when it comes to driving enjoyment. I think most people understand that. But it is incredibly reliable, it is spacious and it achieves excellent fuel economy. This are qualities a lot of people value.
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Apr 14, 2012 17:56
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The Corolla is outdated in so many ways, Toyota has been coasting on it's reputation for a while now. A 4 speed auto is a joke in 2012.
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Apr 14, 2012 19:40
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PT6A posted:Same with the Focus. The new Focus is poo poo, especially with that terrible automated manual. Unless you really like the smell of burning clutches or something. It's the only common rental that I really actively hate to end up with.
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Apr 14, 2012 20:41
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PeterWeller posted:The fault in your logic is that they have been forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired. The Camry has been the best selling mid-size for years, fending off numerous quality competitors like the Accord, Altima and Mazda 6. You think a monolith like Toyota is going to be toppled because Ford got their poo poo back together and Hyundai made one generation of decent automobiles? Well consider how long GM lasted making literally the worst cars on the market back in the 80s. The current set of Toyotas is uninspired and lazy from a design or engineering standpoint, but they're still not utter poo poo, so that combined with Toyota's size and reputation will carry them just fine. The question is whether people who actually know something about cars will bother to care. As bad as Toyota is, I'd say the prize for worst fall into design and engineering mediocrity still goes to Honda.
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Apr 14, 2012 20:49
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sanchez posted:The Corolla is outdated in so many ways, Toyota has been coasting on it's reputation for a while now. Subaru badly needs to update their transmissions across the board too, to say nothing of how terribly they need to move direct-inject from just the BRZ into, you know, every other vehicle they make. In only tangentially-related news, the Ford-Dow partnership regarding making low-cost mass-produced carbon fiber is something that I really hope makes some real progress and gains some traction. Relatively small-displacement, direct-inject, forced-induction engines driving wheels through efficient transmissions to propel safer cars that are lighter than their predecessors due to advances in engineering and material science? Sign me the hell up.
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Apr 14, 2012 23:25
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PT6A posted:What happens when they're forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired? Anecdotally, my 22 year old sister drives a 2008 Camry and loves it. She thinks it is plenty fun to drive and that it looks great. She even tells me that a lot of people have complimented her on it. She even wants me to take her to an auto cross event so she can, "race" it. Her only complaint is that it isn't as fast as her old Impala. So, there are just some Toyota drivers out there that don't realize how boring their car really is. Edit: Cat Terrist posted:Interesting to note that the BRZ follows almost exactly 20 years from another Subaru that changed it's fortunes from nearly broke to what it is today. WRX? oRenj9 fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 00:20
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PT6A posted:What happens when they're forced to compete against good sedans that aren't completely uninspired? The majority of the buying public WANT boring uninspired but highly reliable whitegoods. Exactly what Toyota gives. If you want to go from A to B with the minimum of fuss - as most drivers do - Toyota is a perfect option. And the reality is that those Korean cars that are becoming so good are in reality aiming for what Toyota does because that's where the market is growing. Lots of room for boring insipid but impeccably reliable and economical whitegoods. The Koreans compete on price, not wether they are any good, that's the reality. Toyota are obviously perfectly fine selling as much whitegoods as they can shovel out the factory. quote:The question is whether people who actually know something about cars will bother to care. They buy Subaru. And Subaru know they have the niche for themselves and are perfectly happy selling as much as they want to built - The BRZ / FT86 only enhances that reputation. Interesting to note that the BRZ follows almost exactly 20 years from another Subaru that changed it's fortunes from nearly broke to what it is today.
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Apr 15, 2012 00:25
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Cat Terrist posted:The majority of the buying public WANT boring uninspired but highly reliable whitegoods. Exactly what Toyota gives. If you want to go from A to B with the minimum of fuss - as most drivers do - Toyota is a perfect option. And the reality is that those Korean cars that are becoming so good are in reality aiming for what Toyota does because that's where the market is growing. Lots of room for boring insipid but impeccably reliable and economical whitegoods. Except there's still room for quality within the realm of whitegoods. Right now, in the US at least, the Korean options have arguably superior design and performance for the stuff that whitegoods buyers care about - ride quality, NVH, fuel economy, etc. Also, they're making stuff like the Genesis Coupe, an affordable RWD GT, so it's not all awful whitegoods stuff, either. Given the choice between a new Camry and a Kia Optima of similar price? I'll take the Kia. Looks better, lighter, more power, cheaper, better mileage. It's demonstrably a superior product at being a car, even ignoring performance stuff. The only real advantage to Toyota is reputation, possibly reliability (this is an unknown nowadays), and resale value, and to balance the economic side the Korean cars are cheaper to begin with and offer better warranties. Also, the market isn't growing at all. If anything, the market is shrinking as used cars last longer and are less lovely and also as consumers lose money, especially young people, and lose interest in cars altogether. OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 00:33
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2012 Camry actually lost something like 150lbs (or over 200 for the hybrid) and supposedly drives better than the previous models...not that that's saying much, but it's an improvement.
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Apr 15, 2012 01:50
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Why anyone would buy a Corolla over a Mazda 3 just boggles my mind. In regards to the BRZ, I am looking forward to finding one lightly used in a few years, or if we get a STi version.
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Apr 15, 2012 15:35
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oRenj9 posted:Anecdotally, my 22 year old sister drives a 2008 Camry and loves it. She thinks it is plenty fun to drive and that it looks great. She even tells me that a lot of people have complimented her on it. She even wants me to take her to an auto cross event so she can, "race" it. Her only complaint is that it isn't as fast as her old Impala. Taking her to an autocross and training her so that she at the very least doesn't finish last? That's doing God's work, right there.
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Apr 15, 2012 17:43
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Cream_Filling posted:Given the choice between a new Camry and a Kia Optima of similar price? I'll take the Kia. Looks better, lighter, more power, cheaper, better mileage. It's demonstrably a superior product at being a car, even ignoring performance stuff. I'm curious, have you ever actually sat in the back of a Hyundai Sonata? Because I can tell you that awesome swooping roof line kills rear headroom. I simply can't sit back there. As for the Corolla - yea, people love to rag on the 4-speed auto. Which is weird, because it offers among the best real-world fuel economy in its class (better than Focus or Elantra), and I haven't heard any outcry about how it operates at low speeds (*cough* Focus *cough*). They should update it when it's redesigned, but there's a bit more to it than looking at 6, realizing that number is larger than 4, and then declaring a winner. Oh, and the Corolla barely weighs more than a BRZ. So obviously it's a four-door sports car. Toyota's not the most exciting brand but they make good, practical cars. They've jumped the shark a few times with vehicles like the Venza. But their reputation for reliability is well established (Hyundai and Kia's isn't) and as if that wasn't enough, new Toyotas now come with a 2 year complimentary maintenance plan. Tragic Otter fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 18:08
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I'm just not sure reliability is enough anymore, Toyota came to prominence back when the domestic brands were selling some truly awful/unreliable cars. Today, if the gap isn't gone it's much smaller than it's ever been. New appliance type cars don't really need maintenance in the first 2 years, on a Toyota all you're going to get is a few oil changes and a tire rotation. It's a marketing gimmick. My vote for the car that saved Subaru is the 89+ Legacy.
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Apr 15, 2012 18:32
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1st rear quater impact video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scRlPmBU4Ik
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Apr 15, 2012 18:42
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Faceless Clock posted:I'm curious, have you ever actually sat in the back of a Hyundai Sonata? Because I can tell you that awesome swooping roof line kills rear headroom. I simply can't sit back there. Yeah but I said "Kia Optima," not Hyundai Sonata. There's a reason I chose the Optima as my specific example. Also, I'm not sure where you're getting "real-world fuel economy" since it's certainly not rated any better. "Real-world" to me translates to anecdotal evidence, and considering that the Corolla is neither remarkably lighter or differently powered from other cars in its class with more gear ratios, I don't see how you would see different numbers unless the drivetrain is special or super-efficient in some way (which it's not). If there actually is a real-world difference, which I am skeptical about, it's probably because it drives like a pillow barge, which encourages you to keep low delta on the acceleration, thus improving mileage. I also have driven a Focus around town before and I never had any issues with the transmission. It feels different from a typical torque converter transmission but I wouldn't really call that an "issue." The driving feel itself is worlds better than a Corolla and, if not for the ugly and bulky center stack/dash, I would like it. Given the choice between a Corolla and a Focus? Definitely would take the Focus. Given any choice at all? I'd go for Mazda 3 since it's actually fun to drive and looks better, too, while not costing that much more to own. Maybe take a peek at the Impreza or Hyundai Veloster Turbo/Elantra Coupe, depending on what our definition of 'equivalent car' is. Also, what's with the hate for the Venza? It's basically a Camry wagon and a lot better than some of the other crappy crossovers that have come out. Yeah it's sort of fat and dumpy, but so's the Camry. It also looks (prior to the latest redesign) better than basically anything else Toyota makes right now, which isn't saying much, but there it is. Also, I doubt they're going to redesign the Corolla for another 6 years. If there was a jump the shark moment for Toyota, it just might be the new Avalon, which looks like a clumsy knock-off of the Sonata. It's kind of sad just to look at it. The headlight detailing and contouring is a little better, but considering it costs $35k (nearly $10k more than the ugliest Sonata I could find, the Sonata Hybrid with extra chrome bits) and came out many years after the Hyundai, it's not really better on the design front at all.    Now compare that to Hyundai and Kia's competitors in that large FWD car segment, the redesigned Azera (korean production version shown) and Cadenza (both of which have already been in production in their home markets for several years and are due for refreshes soon):  
OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Apr 15, 2012 |
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Apr 15, 2012 18:48
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Based on the Consumer Reports table of test results, which is probably the best authority on this sort of thing, the Camry was better then the Optima/Sonata across the board when it came to measurable differences. Faster acceleration, higher handling limits, shorter braking distances, better fuel economy. Applies to both engines in each. The Toyota drivetrain is, in fact, "special or super-efficient in some way", and it is an objectively better car overall. The same applies to the Corolla vs. Elantra, just to a lesser extent, and the Elantra is marginally faster.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:00
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Cream_Filling posted:Given the choice between a new Camry and a Kia Optima of similar price? I'll take the Kia. Looks better, lighter, more power, cheaper, better mileage. It's demonstrably a superior product at being a car, even ignoring performance stuff. Actually, the Camry is cheaper, lighter, and gets better mileage. And their acceleration times are comparable, so the Optima is getting much from its power advantage.
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Apr 15, 2012 20:02
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