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Khelmar, can we get some clear guidelines about what is and is not allowed in the way of offering medical-type explanations and suggestions? There was this thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3477176 where the OP got probated and HelloSailorSign got banned. I can see the OP getting probated, since asking for vet advice isn't allowed and that was essentially the point of the thread, but HSS being banned for answering their questions was unexpected. He didn't offer more or less of a diagnosis than any of the rest of us vet students have offered for countless other questions, and he was clear that there were multiple possibilities. Also, the ban "explanation" says that he's not a vet. Would his post have been perfectly legitimate in 10 weeks, when he would actually be a DVM? Not trying to get him unbanned, just trying to figure out where the line is drawn so I (and other knowledgeable people trying to be helpful) don't also get banned.
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Apr 10, 2012 05:00
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I think the rules thread is pretty clear on it... There's no VPCR, so we really don't have any business commenting on stuff like that, vet or not. Especially considering it's something a little more serious than kitty pooping outside the box. Even a full-fledged vet shouldn't be commenting on that panel because s/he does not have a complete history. I am not the mod though so if I'm wrong in this interpretation please correct me!
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Apr 10, 2012 05:27
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The rules essentially say that general explanations about disease processes, etc, are allowed if people are knowledgable about them or have experienced them with their own pets, but that comments about specific cases are not allowed. I know that there is a lot of grey area there, but at the end of that post HSS commented about that animal's bloodwork specifically, which goes against the rules.
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Apr 10, 2012 11:01
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There are plenty of cases where many of us have commented on specific cases. I guess it's the inconsistency that confuses me. Also, the "Punishment reason" still bugs me-- "You're not a vet. Stop doing this. Actually, stop posting." Again, would that have been allowed if he had been a vet? There still wouldn't have been a VCPR. There was this post, where I tried to give treatment advice without actually contradicting their vet and probably ended up doing so: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3475829&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post402127511 Here's Braki commenting on bloodwork: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3469069&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post401060556 Here's Asstro Van and HSS (likely correctly) contradicting someone's veterinarian: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3467150&pagenumber=1&perpage=40#post400687931 Solis gave some incorrect information regarding cataracts, which is allowed under the rules because it's a general topic--how does that make sense? : http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3408341&pagenumber=12&perpage=40#post402197441 There are plenty of other examples from posters who are not vet students, it was just easier to track you all down. I put myself first to make it less like I'm picking on people, but it probably comes across as an attack anyway. My point is, the lines between what is ok to ask and answer has gotten very blurred and I would like to know where the line is drawn, if there is one. If the line is just that buttzilla doesn't like HelloSailorSign that would also be useful information. If the mods would prefer that everyone ignored all posts related to sick animals, that's cool too.
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Apr 10, 2012 15:07
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Seems like HSS just pissed off that mod in general based on his ban/probation history.
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Apr 10, 2012 17:03
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That is entirely possible.
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Apr 10, 2012 17:44
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Braki posted:Today is the last clin path lecture. We are doing our last case. Dear classmate, what do you think of this CBC? I have absolutely no clue about this vet stuff, but I have been going back to school part time (I am 31) and sometimes there will be many students like that in one class, and I seriously feel like they are wasting my money. It can be pretty infuriating.
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Apr 10, 2012 18:01
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To contribute something positive to the thread, here is a quote from my surgical skills prof teaching us about cutting cones: "Osteoblasts are like those students who have studied weeks before the exam and know everything and you really want to slash their tires; they are that kind of cell. Osteoclasts are like the Chuck Norrises of the bone world; they really like to destroy things. They also vomit really nasty things onto bone, so they're also like drunken frat boys. Like Chuck Norris, osteoclasts do not need a surface - they will make their own surface! So here they are, eating a little tunnel through this bone, and then the little border collie osteoblasts go, 'Yay, a surface, a surface! Make more bone!' and fill it in. Oh, no! They're coming across a fracture! *caveman voice* Fracture smaller than osteoclast, osteoclast CHEW through fracture!  "Best prof. She also taught us external fixation using cucumbers and bananas. Her lecture notes have tons of funny jokes in them, too: "Depression [fracture]: what happens if Jack Nicholson stoves in your skull with a crowbar. Also describes how you feel about the whole event afterwards." "If you ever pin a radius and I catch wind of it, I am going to tell your mother. And later, I will personally micturate on your grave."
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Apr 10, 2012 19:46
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Our surgery profs don't have too many great quotes... One did all of his lectures in a skin tight bike kit for charity though! Shame he's kind of old though, dude's pretty buff.
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Apr 11, 2012 01:33
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How often will you have left handed veterinary students in surgical classes? Are they forced to learn to use right handed tools and surgical procedures or are there some kind of accommodations provided?
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Apr 11, 2012 02:18
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One of my friends is left-handed. She uses the scalpel like she's left-handed, but all the other surgical tools are right-handed, and surgical sets are expensive, so with everything else she uses her right hand. Another wonderful quote from my surgical skills prof, from today's bandaging and casting lab: "Ok, so the cast is on. Now I'm going to take a bunch of hand lotion and rub it on until it's hot and hard!" Pretty sure she made our equine surgeon's mouth drop with that one.
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Apr 11, 2012 02:20
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Baika posted:How often will you have left handed veterinary students in surgical classes? Are they forced to learn to use right handed tools and surgical procedures or are there some kind of accommodations provided? I am in fact left handed! I don't know about anywhere else, of course, but I learned it both ways. The school was handy about providing me an ambidextrous set of needle holders (The Mathieu type) during surgery as I prefer suturing left handed... Worst case scenario, though, I just work the box lock wrong-handed on a mayo-hegar or olsen-hegar. I know a fair few left handed surgeons and the lesson I've learned from every one of them individually is it's important to learn how to use both of your hands regardless. There's times where it's often more convenient to do something 'wrong' handed and us lefties are actually at an advantage in some ways because we're more used to being able to adapt to swapping hands. As an aside, best of luck to everyone who's writing finals now or soon! I know I need it for my equine medicine and surgery final tomorrow... Solis fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Apr 11, 2012 |
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Apr 11, 2012 04:03
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Baika posted:How often will you have left handed veterinary students in surgical classes? Are they forced to learn to use right handed tools and surgical procedures or are there some kind of accommodations provided? The ratio of lefties to righties in the vets where I study is about even. Generally they'll use right-handed instruments and do things right-handed even if they are left-handed. The only left-handed instruments we have are Gillies needle holders, but nobody uses them because all the vets are used to using right-handed ones.
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Apr 11, 2012 07:55
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Today someone in class asked if fungi were plants, so the professor had to explain over 5 minutes that they were in a different kingdom.
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Apr 12, 2012 04:21
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Enelrahc posted:Today someone in class asked if fungi were plants, so the professor had to explain over 5 minutes that they were in a different kingdom. No you see she made it a point to turn around and tell me that she was asking if they were on the plant TAKE HOME EXAM because she KNOWS they aren't plants okay...
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Apr 12, 2012 06:30
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Topoisomerase posted:No you see she made it a point to turn around and tell me that she was asking if they were on the plant TAKE HOME EXAM because she KNOWS they aren't plants okay... She is such a shitheel.
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Apr 12, 2012 17:14
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Chaco posted:Khelmar, can we get some clear guidelines about what is and is not allowed in the way of offering medical-type explanations and suggestions? don't also get banned. Sorry, I was out of contact when that all went down. That said, I was kind of bugged by the presentation - "it's this... or it could be this... or this.." in three separate posts is not a great way of going about this. I'm also going to have a discussion with other mods and admins about it, since I have yet to come up with a policy that's all-inclusive and easy to verbalize. Right now, it's kind of a feel thing - some things just feel wrong, but that doesn't give you folks a good meterstick to go by. For now, until I get a better policy hammered out, don't discuss individual bloodwork results, and tell people to get a second opinion if they're concerned. If you have ideas for how to come up with a policy that prevents people from turning this into a vet replacement, but still allows for interesting case discussion, let me know!
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Apr 13, 2012 02:44
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Going back to last year's surgery labs, it was pretty interesting to watch the other students do their physical exams the morning before surgery. Some of them had..interesting styles of animal-handling skills. One exciting morning a student was literally yelling at her patient for the day, a squirmy GSD young adult, to hold still. "IT'S JUST A TEMPERATURE. IT WON'T HURT, DO YOU HEAR ME? IT'S JUST A TEMPERATURE!!!!" Did that actually make the dog hold still? No, it didn't. I went over and showed them how to restrain the dog without yelling at it or getting bit, and things went more smoothly after that. I know everyone has different levels of experience prior to school, but by third year you should know that dogs don't respond well to loud explanations as to why they should hold still. Also relating to surgery labs, clinics, and future jobs: when you are told not to post pictures, especially gory bloody ones, on facebook they actually mean don't do that. So many of my classmates do it anyway, from bloody surgery pictures from labs to pictures of patients in clinics. I have one friend who graduated last year who posts tons of cases and pictures on facebook, including a recent necropsy of all things. Dr. Chaco fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 03:52
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Chaco posted:Also relating to surgery labs, clinics, and future jobs: when you are told not to post pictures, especially gory bloody ones, on facebook they actually mean don't do that. So many of my classmates do it anyway, from bloody surgery pictures from labs to pictures of patients in clinics. I have one friend who graduated last year who posts tons of cases and pictures on facebook, including a recent necropsy of all things. On another note, I know we have some dudes here. Let's get there. Enelrahc fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Apr 13, 2012 |
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Apr 13, 2012 05:21
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So for you guys that don't know, I'm actually about to go into my fourth year, meaning I have to pick rotations. And the OVC is a bitch and I only -just- got my schedule, and I've still got 4 weeks to fill. I'm kind of interested in doing an external a couple places in the US if I can hack it, but I'm not sure who the heck I'd talk to. I know there's a couple people in this thread from UC Davis, and I'm hoping someone from there would be able to PM or IM me who to get in touch with there? Otherwise, I don't even know which schools or places I should be looking at for this stuff. Can anyone give me some advice?
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Apr 13, 2012 16:29
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Khelmar posted:Sorry, I was out of contact when that all went down. That said, I was kind of bugged by the presentation - "it's this... or it could be this... or this.." in three separate posts is not a great way of going about this. I took a few days off to think about this. Yes, that post was nowhere near as good as it could have been (I've done far better) - and I probably need to be more careful and thoughtful of what I post now because bam apparently doesn't like me. By saying "this, this, or maybe this" it came out disorganized and apparently sounded enough like a diagnosis for me to be banned - even though I was trying to be vague (thus why it came out disorganized) in order to follow the gray zone we're in. This is a really long post. Be sure to bring plenty of  What bothers me is that there are plenty of people here that seem to get by with recommending treatment or diagnoses of just about anything by starting things with "IANAV" or "I'm not an expert, but..." or "Well, when MY animal had that we did x and this happened" or whatever iteration. Sometimes they're just fine. Sometimes they're full of crap. I rush to try and get in before these bad ones (or ASAP after they've gone down) so that we don't have misinformation/confusion floating around - and then I end up making a bad post. There was the time a poster was recommending azathioprine for a cat. The numerous posts about diarrhea in the Nutrition Forum (and everyone seems to diagnose a fiber or dietary responsive diarrhea). People who say, "I found this on Google:" What about the person who recommended people give cattle ivermectin for heartworm prevention because it's cheaper and then gives their dosing scheme? Just check out the current Heartworm thread. Enelrahc was first in with two excellent links - probably the best information out there - and that was almost completely blown off by the OP with their later post of "limited exercise seems like a reasonable obstacle, but $1,000, 5-6 weeks cage rest in a new home..." The stuff had been posted, but it didn't seem to be actually read. Then someone comes in later going "Well my dog did x and...", which is essentially a soft recommendation for which treatment should be followed. I've checked out Goon Doc - they've got people posting about their ailments all the time. What they have is a lot of med students and a chunk of doctors who regularly post - and they can regulate each other. Pet Island has few (rare?) veterinarians, what seems to be a good chunk of vet students (several who are nearly vets), and then smatterings of vet techs, pet enthusiasts, scientists, lay people... unless the number of people asking the questions or those answering are severely decreased, we'll continue to run into this problem. You can fix that problem by stopping people from asking questions (being consistent with probating/banning/gassing on questions), from answering questions (see previous but on the responders, and making it consistent), or by trying to find some way where we can have people discussing these topics in a similar way to Goon Doc. Maybe you should ask Invicta if they went through similar growing pains as to what we are going through now. Unless the mods want to get probate-happy and basically remove the Nutrition thread, Animal Questions thread, Kidney Failure thread, Behavior threads, and probably 1/4 the threads on the front page, then something does need to be worked out. We can't require you to be on all the time watching things because you're the resident vet of PI - that's too much on you. Is there a way we can see if there are posters who truly have experience in what they're talking about? Do we then allow those people to be the pseudo-experts of PI? How do we designate people who have proven themselves to know about veterinary topics, and if we do, how do we do it appropriately so it isn't all about favoritism? I butt heads with Super a lot - but there are several things where I greatly respect their knowledge and experience. Maybe we should just require a "References" section at the end of every post... but you can literally find a reference for whatever you want to say on the Internet. I want to help PI. This forum can become an excellent source of information for many different people - vet students, techs, assistants, enthusiasts, owners, lay people... On the other hand, it can become a forum where everyone posts pictures of their dog/cat/chinchilla/chupacabra for everyone to respond  to.
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Apr 14, 2012 02:34
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Solis posted:So for you guys that don't know, I'm actually about to go into my fourth year, meaning I have to pick rotations. Congratulations Solis! Do you happen to know of any administrators on your end that may have any idea of how to get in touch with UC Davis personnel? Otherwise, go here! http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/students/dvm_program/visiting_students.cfm
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Apr 14, 2012 02:47
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Solis posted:So for you guys that don't know, I'm actually about to go into my fourth year, meaning I have to pick rotations. I'm in a similar situation. Our academic dean just mentioned that we can do a 2-4 week externship anywhere we want in fourth year, but applications have to be in by December, so we should think about what we want to do. I'm thinking I could do a derm one at OVC, or neuro at UCD or something cool like that.
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Apr 14, 2012 02:54
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If you guys have questions about the services themselves, I can let you know what my experience has been and what I've seen the visiting students do if you're interested.
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Apr 14, 2012 15:35
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Solis posted:
What do you want to do? It's easier to tell you where to look if we know the kind of thing you want to do. For example, if you want to hate yourself, UC Davis is a good place to go.  (I hate California)If you want zoo / wildlife medicine, Florida is a great place. If you want oncology, Colorado is great.
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Apr 16, 2012 01:51
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Khelmar posted:For example, if you want to hate yourself, UC Davis is a good place to go. What, you don't even like our Path department? Heck, I like our Path department, and our necropsy floor is pretty sweet. I would not recommend coming out here for a rotation cutting up dead things, though, unless you're into that kind of thing. Our Neuro rotation is good, if sometimes insanely busy, and they see a lot of cool cases (and not just down dachsunds either). The surgery departments are good, especially Soft Tissue--I doubt our Ortho department sees much that other places don't see, but our Soft Tissue people always have something new and exciting going on. Lots of thoracoscopic and laparoscopic procedures, stenting of various luminal structures, and emergency removal of various organs. If you're at all interested in dentistry, we have an amazing Dentistry and Oral Surgery service, which I understand many schools don't have as a rotation. They see lots of complicated extractions, some root canals, some orthodontic stuff, jaw fractures, and sometimes oral and facial surgery. Medicine is interesting and you see a lot of great cases, but often the workload and the hours don't jive with the educational value, in that you can be there for many hours each day, hating your life, without getting anything extra out of it. If you do ok with long hours, then that might be a good one to come out for, but I just don't do well on my 14th hour in the hospital so that rotation left me somewhat bitter. Services at Davis I would not recommend you come all the way out for: Cardio (very unpredictable case load, you could easily get a two week block with almost no cases), Small Animal Emergency (also somewhat unpredictable case load, but I hear other school have much busier ERs so if you wanted to go somewhere for Emergency, go to one of those places. I hear Penn is much busier than we are). Services that I particularly loved, usually because the faculty, residents, and/or techs were fantastic, but the service itself may not be any different or better than where you are: Derm, Ortho, Ophtho, Radiology (actually, I hear our radiology program is much better than a lot of places, particularly with regard to ultrasound). There is a Community Surgery rotation where students are the primary surgeons for spays and neuters and other routine sorts of procedures (mass removals, amputations, enucleations), but I don't know if they take visitors.
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Apr 16, 2012 03:40
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Khelmar posted:What do you want to do? It's easier to tell you where to look if we know the kind of thing you want to do. For example, if you want to hate yourself, UC Davis is a good place to go. Haha, yeah I should probably specify that! Honestly, SA surgery, anaesthesia and emerg are my favourite things, but I feel like I'm kind of loading down my rotation list already with them... I'm doing two weeks at the referral practice I spent the summer with, plus an extra of each at the OVC SAC on top of 2 weeks that they require for core. I kind of want to get a lot of experience with different places and methodologies in general, as well as maybe scoping out something for an internship. The OVC... doesn't honestly provide us with a lot of guidance for these things so much as just says 'here's what you need to do, go nuts.' My networking really hasn't been all that great either, it's only recently I've been going out to conferences and trying to get acquainted with people more in the field that aren't, like, right next door to me. (IVECCS 2011 was bloody awesome though, well worth the trip) So yeah, I kind of feel like I don't quiite know what I'm doing at all. As an aside, anyone catch the VIN rounds tonight? It was well worth taking the hour plus off from staring incomprehendingly at my notes on lab animals.
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Apr 16, 2012 04:37
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Chaco posted:What, you don't even like our Path department? Heck, I like our Path department, and our necropsy floor is pretty sweet. I would not recommend coming out here for a rotation cutting up dead things, though, unless you're into that kind of thing. I know a lot of your path department, and I like them. I just loathe California in general and Davis in particular. Your path floor is new and amazing. No one in the drat state can drive worth a drat.If you want to do ER, Penn is an obvious choice (yes, yes, Pennwes, we know). If you want something exotic, you might talk to Matt Beal at MSU about doing an ER / interventional radiology rotation. UCD is a good choice for anesthesia. I don't think they do interns, so if you're thinking you might go for an anesthesia residency, doing an externship there might be a good choice.
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Apr 16, 2012 05:07
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Khelmar posted:I know a lot of your path department, and I like them. I just loathe California in general and Davis in particular. You are literally posting this from Florida. Look I have driven on I-4 plenty of times. It's no better.
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Apr 16, 2012 05:19
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Can't we just agree that anyone who didn't grow up in a place with a winter is a terrible driver? Cause that's what my highly precise research has shown! I don't mind Davis (although I don't love it either). I think our roaches are smaller than those in Florida, which is a bonus!
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Apr 16, 2012 06:06
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Khelmar posted:
Yes, add anesthesia to the list of rotations I recommend. Small animal, I know next to nothing about large animal rotations. Edit: Our roaches aren't very big, this is true. They sure are numerous though--I especially like walking around downtown on summer nights, watching them scurry across the sidewalk in front of me. Also being called in for CAPE in the middle of the night and turning on the lights in the treatment room, sending the roaches scattering in all directions.
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Apr 16, 2012 06:07
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Enelrahc posted:Can't we just agree that anyone who didn't grow up in a place with a winter is a terrible driver? Cause that's what my highly precise research has shown! I can't even agree with that. We have a pretty solid winter here, and the people in this city are absolutely terrible drivers. Edit: Oh, I'm also now leaning towards a behaviour externship. Is that weird? It just feels like we don't get much of that here; our behaviour segment in first year was all large animal stuff. We fly in a behaviourist for our small animal behaviour elective, but all the elective courses are pretty short. There's no rotation, internal or external, for behaviour, and I feel it's something that'll be useful. Braki fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Apr 16, 2012 |
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Apr 16, 2012 07:15
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Enelrahc posted:Can't we just agree that anyone who didn't grow up in a place with a winter is a terrible driver? Cause that's what my highly precise research has shown! As an ex-Floridian I will say that I am a good and careful driver but I would not have a clue what to do in ice or snow. I am now in England and have been taking lessons to drive a manual (Florida is flat so everyone is in automatics) and it has been an experience. It is much more active driving and the rules here are very different. I have to drive back and forth from London to Windsor for a pig farm placement every day for the next two weeks and today's drive was almost a little scary. I only stalled once on the motorway!
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Apr 16, 2012 14:54
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Braki posted:I can't even agree with that. We have a pretty solid winter here, and the people in this city are absolutely terrible drivers. Behavior is fun. If you go to a place with a high caseload it would be a good time. Chaco, I had to pee the other day and the janitors were cleaning MPT, so I went into VM3 to use one of the resident rooms across from anatomy. Ever one I opened had giant roaches that ran down the drain when I turned on the light....I can't pee with that, so I went home. I also hate walking to the lot at night. Shudder. Roaches terrify me.
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Apr 16, 2012 18:44
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Enelrahc posted:Behavior is fun. If you go to a place with a high caseload it would be a good time. I'm not sure there are places with necessarily high behavior caseloads...the appointments are so long!
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Apr 17, 2012 00:36
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Topoisomerase posted:I'm not sure there are places with necessarily high behavior caseloads...the appointments are so long! Gotta be sure to bring all 15 people who live in the house!
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Apr 17, 2012 02:18
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Braki posted:Edit: Oh, I'm also now leaning towards a behaviour externship. 1) It's cruel to make my puppy do tricks for kibble. 2) If I feed him treats around my cats (rewarding him for being calm, not chasing) he will learn that cats are food.
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Apr 17, 2012 13:17
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Crooked Booty posted:Oh god my classmates are retarded about behavior. I got a puppy recently and in the last 48 hours I've been told: We've a classmate who has 2 dogs and has literally admitted to having no idea how to train a dog to do anything. edit: and she got mad when her roommate had a friend over and the friend taught her dog to sit or something.
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Apr 17, 2012 14:55
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Topoisomerase posted:We've a classmate who has 2 dogs and has literally admitted to having no idea how to train a dog to do anything. Well you know she's sensitive about being shown up, I guess. (People believe some bizarre poo poo about dogs.)
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Apr 17, 2012 15:49
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Crooked Booty posted:Oh god my classmates are retarded about behavior. I got a puppy recently and in the last 48 hours I've been told: And this is why I want to be a veterinary behaviorist.
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Apr 17, 2012 16:22
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