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Yaltabaoth
Mar 24, 2007

SubG posted:

My guess is that it wasn't properly rested after cooking. But that's probably just my :airquote:book knowledge:airquote: talking.

If only we had someone with a PHD in cooking to explain all this jargon! loving meat smoking, how does it work?!

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Chemmy
Feb 4, 2001

Not that the posted pork shoulder looks good, but the smoke ring won't form in an electric smoker. It's a byproduct of combustion in a charcoal smoker.

GrAviTy84
Nov 25, 2004

Chemmy posted:

Not that the posted pork shoulder looks good, but the smoke ring won't form in an electric smoker. It's a byproduct of combustion in a charcoal smoker.

I'm pretty sure that there is still combustion resulting in smoke in an electric smoker.

Yaltabaoth
Mar 24, 2007

Chemmy posted:

Not that the posted pork shoulder looks good, but the smoke ring won't form in an electric smoker. It's a byproduct of combustion in a charcoal smoker.

I use a wood smoker and still get smoke rings.

Edit: I was under the impression that smoke rings are from carbon monoxide, which is a byproduct of combustion. Oops got too scientific there, wouldn't want to upset Ikillhostages!

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004

by R. Guyovich

Chemmy posted:

Not that the posted pork shoulder looks good, but the smoke ring won't form in an electric smoker. It's a byproduct of combustion in a charcoal smoker.

a goon scientist you say

Chemmy
Feb 4, 2001

GrAviTy84 posted:

I'm pretty sure that there is still combustion resulting in smoke in an electric smoker.

But not as much. If you google "smoke ring electric smoker" plenty of people get nice bark but no smoke ring.

i shoot friendlies
Jun 25, 2007

GrAviTy84 posted:

I'm pretty sure that there is still combustion resulting in smoke in an electric smoker.

There should be. I used apple wood chips, and most came out at the end not completely burned. That was a bummer. Fist time in a new machine. I will have to figure out why they are not creating enough smoke.

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004

by R. Guyovich

Chemmy posted:

But not as much. If you google "smoke ring electric smoker" plenty of people get nice bark but no smoke ring.

I have an electric smoker (condo). my bark is enormous, and my smoke ring heavy with girth.


you put wood chips in an electric smoker, right on the element, just like you do on a charcoal smoker. they catch on fire, and smolder.

and I'm not just saying this anecdotally. I smoked using charcoal before I had to switch to electric, using the exact(charcoal) same(electric) smoker, and my barks/smoke rings are basically identical when I use my go-to smoking techniques. It depends a lot more on other factors (water pan / no water pan, temperature of meat, starting meat in a hot smoker vs cold, amount of wood chips, how long wood chips are added to the smoker, how long the smoker goes, girth of meat, etc) than the heat source, and suggesting you don't get smoke rings in electric smokers is flat out wrong.

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009

Handy hint, if you're launching the first in what you hope to be a chain that is the "authentic" answer to Chipotle, make sure you spell check your menu first.

EVG
Dec 17, 2005

If I Saw It, Here's How It Happened.

I like turtles posted:

Handy hint, if you're launching the first in what you hope to be a chain that is the "authentic" answer to Chipotle, make sure you spell check your menu first.

I've actually seen that a lot of the more authentic restaurants have more typos on the menus. :)

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009

Eh, I avoided being a dick about pointing it out, just a post of "Hey guys, I think you may have misspelled 'Monterey' in the 'dip' section on your facebook version of the menu". They responded within two minutes.

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

Yaltabaoth posted:

I use a wood smoker and still get smoke rings.

Edit: I was under the impression that smoke rings are from carbon monoxide, which is a byproduct of combustion. Oops got too scientific there, wouldn't want to upset Ikillhostages!
Nitric oxide, not carbon monoxide, but yeah. When nitric oxide comes into contact with water in the presence of atmospheric oxygen it'll react to form nitrous acid. This in turn will react with a pigment in meat called myoglobin (it's the chemical that gives fresh meat a rich purplish-red colour) to make nitric oxide myoglobin (the chemical that gives uncooked cured meats a pinkish tinge) which will, when heated, become nitrosohemochrome, which is the pinkish-red colour you see in a smoke ring or cooked cured pork (like bacon).

This is a simplification; the chemistry of myoglobin is actually more complicated than this: in a living creature it functions as an oxygen storage mechanism for muscle tissue, binding oxygen to form either oxymyoglobin or metmyoglobin, the concentration of metmyoglobin being enzymatically regulated. In dead tissue (that is to say, meat) this regulation mechanism is effectively absent and, because metmyoglobin is the most stable of the aforementioned molecules, the concentration of bright, comic book blood red oxymyoglobin goes down and the concentration of greyish metmyoglobin goes up as meat ages.

Nitrite will react with any of the above, but because metmyoglobin is more stable than the other forms of myoglobin, the higher the proportion of metmyoglobin in the meat, the less smoke ring formation you see. And once metmyoglobin denatures, you get the brownish colour of meat that's Ducassed `done', and this can't be reversed by any conditions that are likely to arise in a kitchen. Even i shoot friendlies'. So once that happens there will be effectively no further smoke ring formation.

This is a simplification, but I think it's accurate, unless Nathan Myhrvold has revolutionised the gently caress out of all this chemistry too, and it turns out smoke ring formation is actually governed by patent trolling or something.

Lyssavirus
Oct 9, 2007
Symptoms include swelling of the brain (encephalitis), numbness, muscle weakness, coma, and death.
:allears: I love when people talk science in here.

Yaltabaoth
Mar 24, 2007

SubG posted:

Nitric oxide, not carbon monoxide, but yeah. When nitric oxide comes into contact with water in the presence of atmospheric oxygen it'll react to form nitrous acid. This in turn will react with a pigment in meat called myoglobin (it's the chemical that gives fresh meat a rich purplish-red colour) to make nitric oxide myoglobin (the chemical that gives uncooked cured meats a pinkish tinge) which will, when heated, become nitrosohemochrome, which is the pinkish-red colour you see in a smoke ring or cooked cured pork (like bacon).

This is a simplification; the chemistry of myoglobin is actually more complicated than this: in a living creature it functions as an oxygen storage mechanism for muscle tissue, binding oxygen to form either oxymyoglobin or metmyoglobin, the concentration of metmyoglobin being enzymatically regulated. In dead tissue (that is to say, meat) this regulation mechanism is effectively absent and, because metmyoglobin is the most stable of the aforementioned molecules, the concentration of bright, comic book blood red oxymyoglobin goes down and the concentration of greyish metmyoglobin goes up as meat ages.

Nitrite will react with any of the above, but because metmyoglobin is more stable than the other forms of myoglobin, the higher the proportion of metmyoglobin in the meat, the less smoke ring formation you see. And once metmyoglobin denatures, you get the brownish colour of meat that's Ducassed `done', and this can't be reversed by any conditions that are likely to arise in a kitchen. Even i shoot friendlies'. So once that happens there will be effectively no further smoke ring formation.

This is a simplification, but I think it's accurate, unless Nathan Myhrvold has revolutionised the gently caress out of all this chemistry too, and it turns out smoke ring formation is actually governed by patent trolling or something.

Do some smokers (electric) not produce nitric oxide?

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004

by R. Guyovich

I like turtles posted:

Handy hint, if you're launching the first in what you hope to be a chain that is the "authentic" answer to Chipotle, make sure you spell check your menu first.

yeah im launching the 'authentic' answer to walmart :smug:

looking for investors

mindphlux
Jan 8, 2004

by R. Guyovich
really though, what could even be the authentic answer to chipotle/mcdonalds? shooting yourself in the face with a shotgun?

therattle
Jul 24, 2007
Soiled Meat

SubG posted:

Nitric oxide, not carbon monoxide, but yeah. When nitric oxide comes into contact with water in the presence of atmospheric oxygen it'll react to form nitrous acid. This in turn will react with a pigment in meat called myoglobin (it's the chemical that gives fresh meat a rich purplish-red colour) to make nitric oxide myoglobin (the chemical that gives uncooked cured meats a pinkish tinge) which will, when heated, become nitrosohemochrome, which is the pinkish-red colour you see in a smoke ring or cooked cured pork (like bacon).

This is a simplification; the chemistry of myoglobin is actually more complicated than this: in a living creature it functions as an oxygen storage mechanism for muscle tissue, binding oxygen to form either oxymyoglobin or metmyoglobin, the concentration of metmyoglobin being enzymatically regulated. In dead tissue (that is to say, meat) this regulation mechanism is effectively absent and, because metmyoglobin is the most stable of the aforementioned molecules, the concentration of bright, comic book blood red oxymyoglobin goes down and the concentration of greyish metmyoglobin goes up as meat ages.

Nitrite will react with any of the above, but because metmyoglobin is more stable than the other forms of myoglobin, the higher the proportion of metmyoglobin in the meat, the less smoke ring formation you see. And once metmyoglobin denatures, you get the brownish colour of meat that's Ducassed `done', and this can't be reversed by any conditions that are likely to arise in a kitchen. Even i shoot friendlies'. So once that happens there will be effectively no further smoke ring formation.

This is a simplification, but I think it's accurate, unless Nathan Myhrvold has revolutionised the gently caress out of all this chemistry too, and it turns out smoke ring formation is actually governed by patent trolling or something.

What is this witchery?!

SubG
Aug 19, 2004

It's a hard world for little things.

Yaltabaoth posted:

Do some smokers (electric) not produce nitric oxide?
Yes and no. Nitric oxide is just nitrogen and oxygen. Both are going to be plentiful in the environment anywhere you're doing any cooking. NO is generated naturally whenever you just happen to have a bunch of oxygen and nitrogen handy and the temperature is high enough. In situations where you have very fine control over the conditions under which combustion is taking place (e.g., in the combustion chamber in the heads in your car) you can control the mixture of air and fuel and the combustion temperature to minimise the amount of NO that's produced. Something like an offset smoker is pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum, and an electric smoker is somewhere in the middle.

That being said, most of the heat in an electric smoker comes from the heating elements. And they're probably a pretty homogeneous heat source, more or less constant somewhere around whatever your cooking temperature is. In a charcoal (or wood) burning smoker, there's more temperature variation across the fire chamber, and (I suspect) across different parts of an individual coal. So if the smoke chamber of your offset is happily at 225 F, on the other side of the baffle in the fire chamber it's probably easily twice that, and in different spots across the fire chamber it's hotter and cooler. Since NO production is fairly seriously endothermic (on the order of a hundred kJ/mol) you're not going to see much NO produced except where you have really hot spots. If you don't have this sort of variability, you're probably not going to see enough NO production to contribute much to smoke ring production.

This is a lot of :words: to say that the more efficient your smoker is, ceteris paribus, the less smoke ring production you're going to see. This is anecdotally supported by general consensus (and my personal experience) that a very efficient `bullet' type smoker, like the WSM, tends to under-smoke, and the horribly inefficient traditional offset smoker tends to over-smoke. Since smokers, like automotive engines, are basically complicated air pumps, you can kinda eyeball this by looking at the rate of smoke exiting your smoker. However fast it's spitting air out, it has to at the same time be taking clean air in out of the environment. The air in the environment is a gently caress of a lot cooler than the air in the fire chamber, but in the time it takes the air to pass through the fire chamber and into the smoke chamber, it has to pick up enough heat to go from ambient temperature to your cooking temperature. The larger the volume of air, the hotter the fire has to be in order to maintain the temperature in the smoke chamber. The hotter the fire has to be, the less efficient the overall process is. So: less efficient means higher peak temperature, higher peak temperature means more NO production, and more NO production means more smoke ring development.

That all being said, I haven't really done a lot of empirical investigation of the thermal behaviour of electric smokers; I'm just speculating based on what I know about the underlying chemistry and the behaviour of different kinds of `traditional' smokers.

Phummus
Aug 4, 2006

If I get ten spare bucks, it's going for a 30-pack of Schlitz.
Point/Counterpoint if you will. This is my first attempt at a smoked pork shoulder. It took me somewhat less than 22 hours.



therattle
Jul 24, 2007
Soiled Meat

Phummus posted:

Point/Counterpoint if you will. This is my first attempt at a smoked pork shoulder. It took me somewhat less than 22 hours.





I don't eat pork but I'd be tempted to eat the gently caress out of that.

scuz
Aug 29, 2003

You can't be angry ALL the time!




Fun Shoe

Phummus posted:

Point/Counterpoint if you will. This is my first attempt at a smoked pork shoulder. It took me somewhat less than 22 hours.




Did you just smoke that on a regular ol' Webber? I wanna smoke meat real bad.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


therattle posted:

I don't eat pork but I'd be tempted to eat the gently caress out of that.

I eat a lot of pork and that is some drat fine-lookin' pork.

Low and slow rules my world.

EDIT: vvvv You know it :bigtran:

KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Apr 23, 2012

therattle
Jul 24, 2007
Soiled Meat

KozmoNaut posted:

I eat a lot of pork and that is some drat fine-lookin' pork.

Low and slow rules my world.

Not to mention high, wide and handsome.

Daeren
Aug 18, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

Phummus posted:

Point/Counterpoint if you will. This is my first attempt at a smoked pork shoulder. It took me somewhat less than 22 hours.





Wanna eat dat pork

Seriously though, that looks really good, and I don't usually go for smoked meat.

I like turtles
Aug 6, 2009

mindphlux posted:

really though, what could even be the authentic answer to chipotle/mcdonalds? shooting yourself in the face with a shotgun?

While I may be unfairly pre-judging the their food based on their menu and news articles reporting their aspirations to be a chain, I've learned to be extremely suspicious of places like this: https://www.facebook.com/BigJuans.
Not as bad a :haw: stupid loving "pun" as "Sir Veza's" down the street, but not so great.

In a place like Tucson, with fantastic Mexican food everywhere (for less money too) I wonder why people bother? At any given location in town I'm no more than a mile from either a real place, or a taco/sonoran hotdog truck.

Phummus
Aug 4, 2006

If I get ten spare bucks, it's going for a 30-pack of Schlitz.

scuz posted:

Did you just smoke that on a regular ol' Webber? I wanna smoke meat real bad.

I smoked it on a Weber with a Smokenator 1000 attachment.

https://www.smokenator.com

Edit: Like this

scuz
Aug 29, 2003

You can't be angry ALL the time!




Fun Shoe

Phummus posted:

I smoked it on a Weber with a Smokenator 1000 attachment.

https://www.smokenator.com
Thanks, sir! Does that thing work pretty well? It sure LOOKS like it does from your pics, but the site says it only holds enough fuel for 6 hours so I'm wondering how big of a pain it is to re-load mid-smoke (if that's necessary).

therattle
Jul 24, 2007
Soiled Meat

scuz posted:

Thanks, sir! Does that thing work pretty well? It sure LOOKS like it does from your pics, but the site says it only holds enough fuel for 6 hours so I'm wondering how big of a pain it is to re-load mid-smoke (if that's necessary).

If you need a longer smoking time, then you need the Smokenator 2000 - now with bigger feed bucket.

Phummus
Aug 4, 2006

If I get ten spare bucks, it's going for a 30-pack of Schlitz.

scuz posted:

Thanks, sir! Does that thing work pretty well? It sure LOOKS like it does from your pics, but the site says it only holds enough fuel for 6 hours so I'm wondering how big of a pain it is to re-load mid-smoke (if that's necessary).

I have the hinged grate on mine, so at any time when I need more fuel, I can lift the hinge and drop briquettes and/or hardwood chunks in the holes on either side of the water pan. The water pan needs to be refilled every 60-90 minutes, so it's not a complete 'set and forget' situation, but it works very much as advertised despite the stupid name.

PCJ-600
Apr 17, 2001
I've posted about what a great helper my 3-year-old has been in the kitchen, but now the little one is getting in on the action! She's still not good for much more than a rough chop, but it's really about the "quality time" for me.

Very Strange Things
May 21, 2008

PXJ800 posted:

I've posted about what a great helper my 3-year-old has been in the kitchen, but now the little one is getting in on the action! She's still not good for much more than a rough chop, but it's really about the "quality time" for me.



Awww... can she use a mandoline yet? BE REALLY CAREFUL THOUGH, sometimes babies have a weak grip and might drop some of the food on the floor.

scuz
Aug 29, 2003

You can't be angry ALL the time!




Fun Shoe

Phummus posted:

I have the hinged grate on mine, so at any time when I need more fuel, I can lift the hinge and drop briquettes and/or hardwood chunks in the holes on either side of the water pan. The water pan needs to be refilled every 60-90 minutes, so it's not a complete 'set and forget' situation, but it works very much as advertised despite the stupid name.
I'm no good at 'set and forget' stuff anyway cuz I'm always checking up on how this and that is going, so that doesn't bug me! That seems like a pretty sweet option; thanks for sharing :)

NosmoKing
Nov 12, 2004

I have a rifle and a frying pan and I know how to use them

PXJ800 posted:

I've posted about what a great helper my 3-year-old has been in the kitchen, but now the little one is getting in on the action! She's still not good for much more than a rough chop, but it's really about the "quality time" for me.



Let her run the Hobart next!

Mr. Wiggles
Dec 1, 2003

We are all drinking from the highball glass of ideology.
Hey D&F, thanks for that Chinatown recommendation. The Explosive Pepper Chicken or whatever it was was pretty ballin.

PCJ-600
Apr 17, 2001

Very Strange Things posted:

Awww... can she use a mandoline yet? BE REALLY CAREFUL THOUGH, sometimes babies have a weak grip and might drop some of the food on the floor.

But what if she cuts herself? I don't feel like doing a full wash and double the prep work after everything gets blood on it.

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??
Dear E/N,
I do not think that calling assistants 'Anally retentive' should be punishable when you explain the term in details, including making constipated sounds when doing so!

Also was offered a promotion!

Finally - we have reinstated emergency lapdance money, since CIO office support are filling the halls with motivational poo poo about no I in TEAM, and we have never seen anything like a lapdance motivate a guy to perform in every way that counts!

We are rooting for the team!

Tomorrow I will make posters!

Happy Hat
Aug 11, 2008

He just wants someone to shake his corks, is that too much to ask??

PXJ800 posted:

But what if she cuts herself? I don't feel like doing a full wash and double the prep work after everything gets blood on it.

That is just added taste!

Darval
Nov 20, 2007

Shiny.
"This food tastes like baby blood"

Jenkin
Jan 21, 2003

Piracy is our only option.

Darval posted:

"This food tastes like baby blood"

"Can I trouble you for your recipe?"

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Drink and Fight
Feb 2, 2003

Happy Hat posted:

Dear E/N,
I do not think that calling assistants 'Anally retentive' should be punishable when you explain the term in details, including making constipated sounds when doing so!

Also was offered a promotion!

Finally - we have reinstated emergency lapdance money, since CIO office support are filling the halls with motivational poo poo about no I in TEAM, and we have never seen anything like a lapdance motivate a guy to perform in every way that counts!

We are rooting for the team!

Tomorrow I will make posters!

There's no I in "team", but there is a ME.

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