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AndyElusive posted:Gotcha. I guess I could have also trusted Google when this result came up. Yes. Technically to read something is yomu or yomimasu, yomi is just a noun form of it that there's no reason to use. It's not like okizeme where people routinely use it (or "oki") to refer to the wakeup game in 3D fighters. It's just a thing Sirlin latched on to.
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Apr 24, 2012 02:26
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oswald ownenstein posted:I thought he had some really cool articles about character balancing with HD remix. He's got some cool ideas about game design, and makes some pretty fun board games. That gets outweighed by the fact that he didn't do a great job re-balancing ST and generally acts like a conceited jackass.
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Apr 24, 2012 02:26
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Brosnan posted:Yes. Actually, the term is "yomiai" and it is used routinely in reference to mind games, but the layer 2-3-4 thing is entirely Sirlin's invention.  That is, it's not an fg-only term like "roll cancel" or "dust loop" that has no meaning outside of fighting games.
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Apr 24, 2012 02:30
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All the Sirlin talk reminded me of how some people were talking about how Old Hawk is new top tier now. I haven't been able to search up anything related to this through Google, and I'm pretty much completely out of the loop on the ST meta. Apparently Old Hawk now has a touch of death combo that's really easy to start up? Can someone fill me in?
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Apr 24, 2012 02:37
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Not a touch of death combo, but a very strong standing jab that's advantageous on hit and block, a command throw that does 25-40% and has no whiff animation, and a dragon punch that can be OS'd into the command for the command throw. Hawk has a lot of trouble getting in on people, but if he touches you with his st.jab (hit or block) you basically lose, and you lose really hard if you let him corner you.
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Apr 24, 2012 02:48
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AnonSpore posted:the layer 2-3-4 thing is entirely Sirlin's invention. I don't know anything about japanese, but the concept he was getting at is valid and worthy of note for game design. It is most notably tangible in poker. The top poker theorist and writer David Sklansky calls it "Multiple Level Thinking." http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/psychology/multiple-level-thinking/ quote:Working out what your opponent may be holding is not easy, and it relies on your ability to think on a number of different levels. "Multiple Level Thinking" is a concept that was brought forward by David Sklansky in his book NL Holdem Theory and Practice, and defines the different levels of thought that a poker player can occupy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESVX2rRiiI0 Here is the thing happening in a fighting game. It's a bigger deal in 3rd Strike than in other games. But yes I agree sirlin is a big dweeb, no you don't need to think about this to play street fighter, don't troll this post, etc etc
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Apr 24, 2012 02:59
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40 OZ posted:words Oh, I do acknowledge that he has a point, and a good one at that. I'm just making it clear that "yomi" isn't a term Sirlin plucked out of his rear end, but that the specific definition he gives isn't part of how the Japanese think about it.
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Apr 24, 2012 03:02
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flatluigi posted:Didn't they have a bunch of pros come in to weigh in about character balance or something and he basically went 'nah gently caress you all we're doing it my way' Maybe, but I can't blame him, since pros often have weird opinions on balance. (for example, back in vanilla SC1, Agent911 was a terran pro who insisted that everything was balanced fine but in retrospect pretty much everyone agrees that pre-BW was really imbalanced) He did a pretty good job of analyzing the characters and improving the weak ones where he could and removing some of the silly advantages that made the game unfun
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Apr 24, 2012 03:05
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HDR was a fun game - even if it wasn't a particularly good one. HDR Sagat and HDR Fei-Long are probably the most fun versions of those characters to date IMO.
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Apr 24, 2012 03:20
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Brosnan posted:Yes. If you have good yomi, you will have very good oki.  *reclines in chair so far back and with such force that I create a black hole, destroying our galaxy*
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Apr 24, 2012 04:53
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Brannock posted:All the Sirlin talk reminded me of how some people were talking about how Old Hawk is new top tier now. I haven't been able to search up anything related to this through Google, and I'm pretty much completely out of the loop on the ST meta. Apparently Old Hawk now has a touch of death combo that's really easy to start up? Just go watch Damdai's ST tutorials, he went to Japan a while ago and learned a lot of O.Hawk tricks that have become popular, namely the safejump jab > dp/360 corner os that is iirc inescapable. Yomi is simple to explain, first, imagine four moves on the edge of a cliff... Okizeme is only a word you should use if you want to be that one shrill anime game commentator who yells it at the top of his lungs every time someone scores a knockdown in blazblue.
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Apr 24, 2012 04:53
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oswald ownenstein posted:Maybe, but I can't blame him, since pros often have weird opinions on balance. (for example, back in vanilla SC1, Agent911 was a terran pro who insisted that everything was balanced fine but in retrospect pretty much everyone agrees that pre-BW was really imbalanced) interrodactyl posted:He nerfed Chun because he couldn't beat her.
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Apr 24, 2012 04:53
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re: O.Hawk he has an OS that is basically inescapable for a lot of characters, but certain characters can escape it outside of the corner. Also O.Hawk is still a low-tier character regardless because a ton of his matches are basically unwinnable 90% of the time, with the other 10% being you made a good read and got in, and didn't gently caress up your execution.
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Apr 24, 2012 06:09
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Jmcrofts posted:re: O.Hawk he has an OS that is basically inescapable for a lot of characters, but certain characters can escape it outside of the corner. Also O.Hawk is still a low-tier character regardless because a ton of his matches are basically unwinnable 90% of the time, with the other 10% being you made a good read and got in, and didn't gently caress up your execution. "Unwinable" is kinda one of those on-paper terms. He does have some of the worst matchups in the game, but even with those if a hawk player gets a lucky read and a knockdown he can still win. I'd say he's settled as a solid mid tier just because of that, assuming a player can pull off his option selects perfectly. And o.Sagat is still a way more fun char than r.sagat, r.sagat felt so completely neutered. I do like him over n.sagat. I loving love st and it will forever remain the best fg in my eyes. If anyone feels like chatting about st or playing on ggpo / xbox via hdr hit me up on AIM or something, FingersMLD.
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Apr 24, 2012 08:44
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I missed the "Excited for GG" talk but I've even started playing BB again a bit, I really really liked GG and can't wait for it to go online. I pretty much only played Slayer/Potemkin well but Testament was really fun to mess about with as well if only to piss people off with all the stuff he can do. Also I say I played Slayer "well" but I still hit his 2 hit aerial super only like, 10% of the time. Slayer was fun because you could mix up combos to do a bit less damage but just be stylish as gently caress. Drop a link halfway and turn it into something else and pretend it was an intentional tech trap. There's no way I'm gonna be able to hit his links online I think.
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Apr 24, 2012 09:16
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Most Slayer stuff is 2-3 frame links so yea good luck doing your ground links if the online is rear end. luckily for us he's not super reliant on FRC's (6P FRC is useful) for big damage and has combos off BBU which might be harder to drop online and do hecka damage anywhere on screen. UPPAH
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Apr 24, 2012 09:31
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:Most Slayer stuff is 2-3 frame links so yea good luck doing your ground links if the online is rear end. luckily for us he's not super reliant on FRC's (6P FRC is useful) for big damage and has combos off BBU which might be harder to drop online and do hecka damage anywhere on screen. BBU > BBU > BBU > BBU Pro Online Combo
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Apr 24, 2012 09:33
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Testament always looked really fun to play, do you need particularly good execution to play him? I don't have all the time that I used to to practise tough combos.
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Apr 24, 2012 10:14
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I really need to sit down in the arcade and play an easy character. What's a good character to start with? I got a few Potempkin combos I can do during matches but I want to learn another character.
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Apr 24, 2012 14:20
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Amazon is having some sort of gold box deal on a fightstick at 5pm pst if any of y'all will be around to check that out. http://www.amazon.com/gp/goldbox/
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Apr 24, 2012 14:32
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Robolizard! posted:Amazon is having some sort of gold box deal on a fightstick at 5pm pst if any of y'all will be around to check that out. Don't forget about KoF13 for $25 between 1-3pm PST.
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Apr 24, 2012 15:12
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AnonSpore posted:but the layer 2-3-4 thing is entirely Sirlin's invention. I know 40oz already pointed out that Sklansky wrote about this long before Sirloin but still,  EDIT: Actual content! I don't think this has been posted yet but the SFXT cross/line sticks will be on sale for $99.99 from 5-7 PST today as an Amazon gold box deal or whatever. If you're looking for a good stick you should definitely grab this. rivals fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Apr 24, 2012 |
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Apr 24, 2012 16:03
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uncleKitchener posted:I really need to sit down in the arcade and play an easy character. Everyone has hard stuff and easy stuff, play who you want to play. Nobody is "easy" in Guilty Gear, not even Potemkin. That being said, Ky is a good choice for beginners because he has good life, great pokes, good mixup tools, and fireballs and uppercuts that work exactly how you'd expect. Testament is a good choice too because he's dumb as poo poo and everything he has is really good. Avoid Bridget, Dizzy, I-No, and Chipp because they are harder to play well and have bad life so you will die in like 2 mistakes.
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Apr 24, 2012 17:17
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Gwyrgyn Blood posted:Everyone has hard stuff and easy stuff, play who you want to play. Nobody is "easy" in Guilty Gear, not even Potemkin. Thanks for the advice. I specifically remember getting the upper hand against an I-No player as Potempkin since he had the tool and the damage and the I-No player had to work much harder harder to deal damage and keep me away.
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Apr 24, 2012 19:47
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DizzyBum posted:Don't forget about KoF13 for $25 between 1-3pm PST. Too bad the deal is for ps3 only.
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Apr 24, 2012 21:02
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Question Mark Mound posted:Testament always looked really fun to play, do you need particularly good execution to play him? I don't have all the time that I used to to practise tough combos. you need good execution to play GG at all, assuming that you want to do really good combos and win. (wat g.blood said) but sol and ky and testa and axl are the babiest chars IMO.
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Apr 24, 2012 22:38
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Zand posted:you need good execution to play GG at all, assuming that you want to do really good combos and win. (wat g.blood said) Hows Testament easy to use? Are his traps useless or are there very well known specific places that you put them? Or did he have some weird overhaul after GGXX Reload?
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Apr 24, 2012 22:41
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He got a lot better in AC. His traps are good and have always been good. He's got a really really good mixup, he can control the screen pretty well, his combos are strong as hell too and honestly not that hard to do IIRC anyway. Plus he has Forward EXE Beast now which is one of the dumbest moves in the game. I think it only has around 1~3F of startup before it is guaranteed to go active, regardless of if you hit Testament or not. I dunno about Axl being easy really ... he's got one of the jankiest FRCs in the game and you really have to know it to do any real damage. Plus a ton of his combos are character specific, and his reversals are kinda terrible. Even his pokes and mixups are kind of unintuitive at first. He's a shitload of fun to play either way though.
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Apr 24, 2012 22:57
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rivals posted:EDIT: Actual content! I don't think this has been posted yet but the SFXT cross/line sticks will be on sale for $99.99 from 5-7 PST today as an Amazon gold box deal or whatever. If you're looking for a good stick you should definitely grab this. Managed to grab a PS3 stick. They're running out really quickly!
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Apr 25, 2012 02:10
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Zand posted:you need good execution to play GG at all, assuming that you want to do really good combos and win. (wat g.blood said)
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Apr 25, 2012 09:08
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oswald ownenstein posted:So why do we hate Sirlin so much? All circle-jerking FG crowd bullshit aside, that is. The more detailed answer to this is that for every good idea or opinion he has on game design, he has an equally bad one - most recent example: He thinks that hitstun and gravity scaling are more intuitive infinite protection systems than the one found in Skullgirls  . I've seen on several occasions where somebody else is foolish enough to attempt to challenge one of Sirlin's worse opinions, and he has a tendency to let his ego go berserk and just talk down the other guy without actually addressing any debatable points.Aside from that, he likes to be overcomplicated and pretentious about explaining things (which is ironic, given how much he harps on needless complexity). The yomi think is a great example, but another one is how he felt the need to apply the terms "slippery slope" and "perpetual comeback" when everyone already just calls it "snowballing" and "reverse snowballing".
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Apr 25, 2012 09:58
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In fairness he wrote those articles like over a decade ago and may not have been aware those were established terms.
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Apr 25, 2012 10:13
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inthesto posted:Aside from that, he likes to be overcomplicated and pretentious about explaining things (which is ironic, given how much he harps on needless complexity). The yomi think is a great example, but another one is how he felt the need to apply the terms "slippery slope" and "perpetual comeback" when everyone already just calls it "snowballing" and "reverse snowballing". Most people call it snowball and comeback. inthesto posted:The more detailed answer to this is that for every good idea or opinion he has on game design, he has an equally bad one - most recent example: He thinks that hitstun and gravity scaling are more intuitive infinite protection systems than the one found in Skullgirls I think they're about equally unintuitive. IPS is just another system you have to game and has some really weird rules that don't really make sense the first few times you try them, it's actually harder to figure out the generalities of the system. In IPS, you need to figure out the rules where moves start triggering stuff, which aren't really that black and white. While with hitstun decay and gravity increase, you know the general rules of the combo system pretty fast but IMO the nuances are more complex. anime was right fucked around with this message at 10:25 on Apr 25, 2012 |
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Apr 25, 2012 10:22
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Waterbed posted:In IPS, you need to figure out the rules where moves start triggering stuff, which aren't really that black and white. "Don't start a chain with a move you've used before" seems pretty simple to me.
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Apr 25, 2012 12:44
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Thanks for the advice on GG. I only have GGXR on PC, so a lot of combos won't work as intended or have different properties (Slayer grab infinite, Potem d+S pushing back instead of forward and his command grab having less recovery, etc.) and I can only play AC in the arcade, so this might take a while. It's times like these that I wish I had a Japanese PS2  - 
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Apr 25, 2012 12:54
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uncleKitchener posted:Thanks for the advice on GG. I only have GGXR on PC, so a lot of combos won't work as intended or have different properties (Slayer grab infinite, Potem d+S pushing back instead of forward and his command grab having less recovery, etc.) and I can only play AC in the arcade, so this might take a while. It's times like these that I wish I had a Japanese PS2 But GGXXAC has a non JP Releases too :o And yeah don't bother trying to learn AC combos by playing Reload, it'll really mess you up on some of the characters. Ky seems like an easy character to work with because he's basically the GG Equivalent of Ryu, I've always thought Potemkin isn't too hard because at least a lot of his combos aren't too many hits.
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Apr 25, 2012 13:05
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:But GGXXAC has a non JP Releases too :o Well, that or the NA version because I've stopped buying PAL PS1/2 fighting games. Also I want to play HNK and SF Anniversary edition to practice Alpha2 combos (even though some combos don't work like in the arcade edition. This is especially the case with Akuma's). I'm not sure if Potempkin's pick up combo works in X2R, but I'm gonna stop playing that version.
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Apr 25, 2012 13:23
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AXE COP posted:"Don't start a chain with a move you've used before" seems pretty simple to me. That isn't the only rule though.
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Apr 25, 2012 13:26
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AXE COP posted:"Don't start a chain with a move you've used before" seems pretty simple to me. Yeah, I recently found out there were other rules in addition to that. Moves that restand seem to get hit particularly hard. If that were the only rule, though, it would be miles easier than hitstun or gravity scale.
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Apr 25, 2012 13:36
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Tokyo Slutty Gal posted:That isn't the only rule though. Really? What other rules are there? Mike Z said multiple times that was the only thing restricting it and every other modification was just there to make it easier (like the first ground & first air chain being free).
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Apr 25, 2012 14:19
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