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Saga
Aug 17, 2009
The latest issue of EVO drove the BRZ against the Megane R-whateveritisnow, Zed and MX-5 and panned it (e: also separately against a Classic Turbo 2000). 3.5 stars out of 5, which is pretty damming coming from Evo.

Not that I'm planning to drop 25k on a new car, but will still be interested in trying a BRZ, assuming dealers get demo cars at some point. I'm thinking this might be another of EVO's Prius moments though, where the collective Zonda and 911 owners club that is the editorial staff (notwithstanding their claims of Panda ownership etc) doesn't understand why the target market will like the car.

For UK buyers at least, I think a sports car that works on lovely Primacies, has a restrained tax band, a trunk/boot and 4 seats (in the 924 sense of 4 seats) and doesn't wildly oversteer in the dry has an appeal that their editors may have missed.

Saga fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Apr 28, 2012

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track day bro!
Feb 17, 2005

#essereFerrari
Grimey Drawer

Saga posted:

The latest issue of EVO drove the BRZ against the Megane R-whateveritisnow, Zed and MX-5 and panned it (e: also separately against a Classic Turbo 2000). 3.5 stars out of 5, which is pretty damming coming from Evo.

Not that I'm planning to drop 25k on a new car, but will still be interested in trying a BRZ, assuming dealers get demo cars at some point. I'm thinking this might be another of EVO's Prius moments though, where the collective Zonda and 911 owners club that is the editorial staff (notwithstanding their claims of Panda ownership etc) doesn't understand why the target market will like the car.

For UK buyers at least, I think a sports car that works on lovely Primacies, has a restrained tax band, a trunk/boot and 4 seats (in the 924 sense of 4 seats) and doesn't wildly oversteer in the dry has an appeal that their editors may have missed.

What exactly did they criticise? Wierd realy seeing as most reviews have been fairly positive.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Is Zed the Z4 or the 370Z?

e: I never got to the bottom of why Chris Harris left Evo. I wonder if it's the same difference of opinion over audience and reception.

Ether Frenzy
Dec 22, 2006




Nap Ghost
The 911/Zonda comment is accurate about the EVO staff in general, but Henry Catchpole (who did the video review at least, I haven't received my EVO print copy in the mail yet) is more of a Skoda Yeti/latest Panda-fan type reviewer so I do take his commentary about the lack of low-down urgency/torque in general to be a valid criticism rather than a "....compared to an Aventador, :smug: " type of statement like you might get with Harris or Meaden.

They have also been historically pretty big proponents of the 350z/370z, so they're not that exclusionary from the 99%-er car classes.

Catchpole's other main complaint seemed to be of the general droney sound of the engine/exhaust, but that should be relatively easily improved with aftermarket.

Definitely going to be interested to drive one/hear people's opinions once it gets into the hands of the general public.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.
I'll be interested in reading it too.

What I've always loved about EVO is their writing about supercars, as reviewers. Sure, they enjoy them, but it's not the insane fanboy hyperbole you get most places, and I think it's because they're one of the few publications to sit down and write about a £400k car with the understanding that someone reading might be able to afford one and would appreciate a balanced opinion.

InitialDave fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Apr 28, 2012

ROFLBOT
Apr 1, 2005

Autocar did a comparo with the exact same cars (370Z and NC) and the BRZ convincingly came out on top. Mind you they used a *manual* BRZ not auto like EVO and the MX-5 was the retractable hardtop version so it weighed more than the BRZ...

Autocar posted:

Neither the 370Z nor the MX-5 can thrill at that level. Compared to Subaru, they look like blunt, dull communicators here, outclassed by a new affordable driver’s car of amazing delicacy and extraordinary talent. One that could be the best sports car to come out of Japan since the Honda NSX, and that must be worth £25k from anyone who knows what sunny weekends and great roads were really made for.

Ok so maybe once the hype dies down a little we might start to see less gushing praise but still at this point the EVO review is very much the outlier

ROFLBOT fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Apr 29, 2012

The Big Jesus
Oct 29, 2007

#essereFerrari

ROFLBOT posted:

Autocar did a comparo with the exact same cars (370Z and NC) and the BRZ convincingly came out on top.

Ok so maybe once the hype dies down a little we might start to see less gushing praise but still at this point the EVO review is very much the outlier

The review was odd though. Kept talking about how everything was perfect but it didn't have as much power as the Z.. that costs a ton more.
If power was the only problem (and it's not like 200hp stock is puny on a car that light) you'd think it would do better than 3.5/5

Jean Eric Burn
Nov 10, 2007

Some shop dyno'ed the BRZ shocks finally.


Looks very, very, very close to a WRX shock. Not much surprise there, not that I think they parts-binned it willy nilly or anything, but think of a ~15% softer WRX and that's pretty close to this (independent of a dozen other factors, but hey).

Marvin K. Mooney
Jan 2, 2008

poop ship
destroyer

Piano posted:

Some shop dyno'ed the BRZ shocks finally.


Looks very, very, very close to a WRX shock. Not much surprise there, not that I think they parts-binned it willy nilly or anything, but think of a ~15% softer WRX and that's pretty close to this (independent of a dozen other factors, but hey).

It's also between 432-655lbs lighter, but has smaller springs, so it might be stiffer.

track day bro!
Feb 17, 2005

#essereFerrari
Grimey Drawer

The Big Jesus posted:

The review was odd though. Kept talking about how everything was perfect but it didn't have as much power as the Z.. that costs a ton more.
If power was the only problem (and it's not like 200hp stock is puny on a car that light) you'd think it would do better than 3.5/5

Tbf if you shop around you can buy a 0 miles 370Z for about £25k, they havent realy sold as well as the 350Z did here.

I would like to test drive the FT86 but tbh I probably wont be in the market for something like that now for a year or so and then i'd probably end up buying a used one so idk.

With the shocks, does anyone know who makes them? I remember hearing that they are madae by showa, but then I remember reading that they are also made by sachs somewhere. Possibly the euro market cars have different shocks?

Seat Safety Switch
May 27, 2008

MY RELIGION IS THE SMALL BLOCK V8 AND COMMANDMENTS ONE THROUGH TEN ARE NEVER LIFT.

Pillbug

bidikyoopi posted:

It's also between 432-655lbs lighter, but has smaller springs, so it might be stiffer.
If the documentary videos are anything to go by, they set the car up with softer suspension as the centre of gravity is much lower so they don't need to use stiffer springs to provide roll control.

oRenj9
Aug 3, 2004

Who loves oRenj soda?!?
College Slice
Looks like there is some track comparisons between the BRZ, 86, and the MX-5 up now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk3vGY7-og8

It looks like they kept traction control on for the BRZ and off for the 86.

Kia Soul Enthusias
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom
Toilet Rascal

Piano posted:

Some shop dyno'ed the BRZ shocks finally.


Looks very, very, very close to a WRX shock. Not much surprise there, not that I think they parts-binned it willy nilly or anything, but think of a ~15% softer WRX and that's pretty close to this (independent of a dozen other factors, but hey).

Do you have the graph of a different car for comparison?

Ziploc
Sep 19, 2006
MX-5

oRenj9 posted:

Looks like there is some track comparisons between the BRZ, 86, and the MX-5 up now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk3vGY7-og8

It looks like they kept traction control on for the BRZ and off for the 86.

Maybe that was the understeer control I was reading about? Didn't stop him oversteering out of the corners.

The Big Jesus
Oct 29, 2007

#essereFerrari
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5566

This thread makes me feel like this:

f (゚ ∀ ゚ f)

I never thought I'd see Maddofurappus on an 86.

ROFLBOT
Apr 1, 2005

Ignition review of the FR-S - with a 4600rpm clutch dump and heaps of wheelspin they still managed a 0-60 of 6.2sec and 1/4 in 14.8

Between this and the BestMotoring tests I think its safe to say now this is not a 7sec 0-60, 15sec 1/4 car it was being made out to be, which is a bit of a relief.

ROFLBOT fucked around with this message at 06:53 on May 3, 2012

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
That review linked here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPoZ1SC8uwk
The smile it puts on Randy Pobst's face says it all.

Longpig Bard
Dec 29, 2004



kimbo305 posted:

That review linked here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPoZ1SC8uwk
The smile it puts on Randy Pobst's face says it all.

Nobody is cross shopping a Must.... oh god drat it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3hgleEOXA

bull3964
Nov 18, 2000

DO YOU HEAR THAT? THAT'S THE SOUND OF ME PATTING MYSELF ON THE BACK.


ROFLBOT posted:

Ignition review of the FR-S - with a 4600rpm clutch dump and heaps of wheelspin they still managed a 0-60 of 6.2sec and 1/4 in 14.8

Between this and the BestMotoring tests I think its safe to say now this is not a 7sec 0-60, 15sec 1/4 car it was being made out to be, which is a bit of a relief.

It's essentially in the same ballpark of WRX before it moved to the 265hp engine, just with much better handling, lower maintenance, and better fuel economy.

I want one of these as a replacement for my '02 WRX so bad it hurts.

Powershift
Nov 23, 2009


Bumming Your Scene posted:

Nobody is cross shopping a Must.... oh god drat it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3hgleEOXA

So basically what we anticipated, more of a precise drivers car but still unable to overcome the power advantage in the numbers game.

DEUCE SLUICE
Feb 6, 2004

I dreamt I was an old dog, stuck in a honeypot. It was horrifying.

ROFLBOT posted:

Ignition review of the FR-S - with a 4600rpm clutch dump and heaps of wheelspin they still managed a 0-60 of 6.2sec and 1/4 in 14.8

Between this and the BestMotoring tests I think its safe to say now this is not a 7sec 0-60, 15sec 1/4 car it was being made out to be, which is a bit of a relief.

I can't wait to see what happens when people start swapping out for 225 or 235 width Pilot Super Sports or other similar summer tires.

Powershift
Nov 23, 2009


DEUCE SLUICE posted:

I can't wait to see what happens when people start swapping out for 225 or 235 width Pilot Super Sports or other similar summer tires.

Bogging. The term "no low end torque" is thrown around a lot.

quote:

Between this and the BestMotoring tests I think its safe to say now this is not a 7sec 0-60, 15sec 1/4 car it was being made out to be, which is a bit of a relief.

Yes, it is. You're not going to do 4600rpm clutch dumps all the time. It is a 7 second 0-60 and 15 second 1/4 mile car, but most of the world considers that quick. It's not a drag car, it will only match F-150s light to light, but that's missing the entire point of the car.

This is the type of car you buy only for you. Most american car enthusiasts won't be the least bit impressed with it. There's a long list of quicker cars in the price range. But it is probably the only car that you can take to it's limits without breaking laws or drawing attention.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad

Powershift posted:

There's a long list of quicker cars in the price range. But it is probably the only car that you can take to it's limits without breaking laws or drawing attention.

It would be really cool to drift out of the parking lot with minimal tire howl with no one paying attention.

Sockington
Jul 26, 2003

kimbo305 posted:

It would be really cool to drift out of the parking lot with minimal tire howl with no one paying attention.

Miata daily life.

Except mine is yellow. :eng99:

Guinness
Sep 15, 2004

Sockington posted:

Miata daily life.

I do miss how much I could break traction and get the rear loose (hurray LSD) in my Miata without attracting much attention at all. Doing the same thing in my E46 stands out WAY more, and not in a good way.

ppp
Feb 13, 2012

by angerbot

Powershift posted:

Bogging. The term "no low end torque" is thrown around a lot.


Yes, it is. You're not going to do 4600rpm clutch dumps all the time. It is a 7 second 0-60 and 15 second 1/4 mile car, but most of the world considers that quick. It's not a drag car, it will only match F-150s light to light, but that's missing the entire point of the car.

This is the type of car you buy only for you. Most american car enthusiasts won't be the least bit impressed with it. There's a long list of quicker cars in the price range. But it is probably the only car that you can take to it's limits without breaking laws or drawing attention.

Please explain how softer tires will result in the engine bogging down. Also I have no idea how you believe that it is possible to take any modern automobile to its limits without breaking the law, and in the case of this car, drawing attention.

Muffinpox
Sep 7, 2004

kimbo305 posted:

It would be really cool to drift out of the parking lot with minimal tire howl with no one paying attention.

If the S2000 weren't so loud it would be pretty easy to do, the S.Drives don't make much noise.

ppp posted:

Please explain how softer tires will result in the engine bogging down. Also I have no idea how you believe that it is possible to take any modern automobile to its limits without breaking the law, and in the case of this car, drawing attention.

More traction makes them harder to spin. If the tires don't spin, the engine bogs.

Muffinpox fucked around with this message at 22:40 on May 3, 2012

Flesh Croissant
Apr 23, 2010

by FactsAreUseless

Powershift posted:

So basically what we anticipated, more of a precise drivers car but still unable to overcome the power advantage in the numbers game.

Numbers game or not, "Slower than a v6 mustang on a track" is a hard pill to swallow for a car that is so focused. I think the cross-shopping of the mustand and BRZ is more likely than many think.

zorch
Nov 28, 2006

mattdizzleZ28 posted:

Numbers game or not, "Slower than a v6 mustang on a track" is a hard pill to swallow for a car that is so focused. I think the cross-shopping of the mustand and BRZ is more likely than many think.

100 more horsepower and :siren:1.5 seconds:siren: faster than the BRZ on a track. How loving awful, they really shamed Subaru in that test.

Powershift
Nov 23, 2009


ppp posted:

Please explain how softer tires will result in the engine bogging down. Also I have no idea how you believe that it is possible to take any modern automobile to its limits without breaking the law, and in the case of this car, drawing attention.

It takes a lot more torque to move the car than it does to spin the tires. if the tires weren't spinning, the engine would have a harder time working through the rev range.

And take for example a mountain road with a 60mph speed limit. The limit of a higher performance car with stickier rubber would be around 70mph, the limit of the brz would be 60mph, and you could take the car to it's limit within the speed limit, and without squealing tires.

emoltra posted:

100 more horsepower and :siren:1.5 seconds:siren: faster than the BRZ on a track. How loving awful, they really shamed Subaru in that test.

1.5 seconds is pretty huge on a 1.8 mile lap, on willow springs that's 10+ car lengths. There's really no need to get defensive about this.

ppp
Feb 13, 2012

by angerbot

emoltra posted:

100 more horsepower and :siren:1.5 seconds:siren: faster than the BRZ on a track. How loving awful, they really shamed Subaru in that test.

http://willowspringsraceway.info/page.php?id=31 From the looks of the track the BRZ would get beaten a lot worse on a track with more than one straightaway.

edit:

Powershift posted:

It takes a lot more torque to move the car than it does to spin the tires. if the tires weren't spinning, the engine would have a harder time working through the rev range.

And take for example a mountain road with a 60mph speed limit. The limit of a higher performance car with stickier rubber would be around 70mph, the limit of the brz would be 60mph, and you could take the car to it's limit within the speed limit, and without squealing tires.


1.5 seconds is pretty huge on a 1.8 mile lap, on willow springs that's 10+ car lengths. There's really no need to get defensive about this.

Sorry if I didn't make this clear but it seems absurd to me to consider how much more my engine would bog down if I switched to softer tires. If it is indeed a problem then I'd suggest using either the clutch or gas more.

As for your mountain road example, keep in mind that not only is it a very poor decision to drive a car at or near its limits on a public road, it could very well be illegal due to road conditions or basically the will of whatever police officer catches you. If it's snowing and you can't see the hood of your car, if you go the posted speed limit you will probably die.

ppp fucked around with this message at 00:22 on May 4, 2012

Flesh Croissant
Apr 23, 2010

by FactsAreUseless
I thought to mention that but i didnt want to rile up people, willow springs isnt exactly a power circuit, and if ford can deliver 100 more horsepower (matched to good handling) at a comparable price point, thats something to be applauded, not mocked. It got spanked in either handling (stiffer doesnt mean faster, see BMW Z4) or tire quality (my theory).


coolskillrex remix
Jan 1, 2007

gorsh

ROFLBOT posted:

Ignition review of the FR-S - with a 4600rpm clutch dump and heaps of wheelspin they still managed a 0-60 of 6.2sec and 1/4 in 14.8

Between this and the BestMotoring tests I think its safe to say now this is not a 7sec 0-60, 15sec 1/4 car it was being made out to be, which is a bit of a relief.

0-60 times are a useless rubric in manual transmission cars and i dont know why people get so hung up over them. 99.999999% of people going off of stop lights arent going to dump their clutch at 4600rpm.

Weight to power ratios and gear ratios determine how fast a car can pin you in the back of your seat, and thats what lends it to being "fun", basically a 5-45, or 5-60, or 30-60, those are all much more consistent times than 0-60.

jamal
Apr 15, 2003

I'll set the building on fire
At Willow Spings a more powerful car has a huge advantage. The BRZ probably only has to brake going into 1 and 3, and is probably flat all the way around 8-9.

edit: everyone is saying willow springs in here but it was done at streets. There are actually three tracks out there.

Willow Springs International Raceway = big fast track
Streets of Willow = medium/small twisty track
Horsethief Mile = tiny slow track

jamal fucked around with this message at 00:24 on May 4, 2012

Flesh Croissant
Apr 23, 2010

by FactsAreUseless

jamal posted:

At Willow Spings a more powerful car has a huge advantage. The BRZ probably only has to brake going into 1 and 3, and is probably flat all the way around 8-9.

edit: everyone is saying willow springs in here but it was done at streets. There are actually three tracks out there.

Willow Springs International Raceway = big fast track
Streets of Willow = medium/small twisty track
Horsethief Mile = tiny slow track


I just dont want to sit back and see people rushing in with "it doesnt count because its got less power", or "it doesnt count because its not the right configuration of racetrack". I'm no mustang fanboy by any means (see name), but credit where credit is due, it wins on the track. If it cant make up for its lack of power with momentum its simply a slower car.

AfricanBootyShine
Jan 9, 2006

Snake wins.

Well, that comparison just completely destroyed my interest in the Toyobaru. It needs a turbo.

EDIT: I didn't watch the full video, what tires were they running on the BRZ and the Mustang?

AfricanBootyShine fucked around with this message at 01:01 on May 4, 2012

D C
Jun 20, 2004

1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING
I'd like to see the times around Horsetheif.

Possum Launcher
Mar 18, 2012

emoltra posted:

100 more horsepower and :siren:1.5 seconds:siren: faster than the BRZ on a track. How loving awful, they really shamed Subaru in that test.

Not even. The Mustang was 1.23 seconds faster, which is only about 1.5% faster with a 50% power advantage. To me, that means the BRZ made up a huge amount of ground with some combination of lighter weight, cornering ability and driver confidence. That sounds like a win to me.


Internet Meme posted:

Well, that comparison just completely destroyed my interest in the Toyobaru. It needs a turbo.

EDIT: I didn't watch the full video, what tires were they running on the BRZ and the Mustang?

It's amazing how two people can watch the same video and see something completely different. I was amazed the times were so close. Were you really surprised that a car with 50% more power and stickier tires beat a BRZ around a track?

Possum Launcher fucked around with this message at 01:08 on May 4, 2012

Powershift
Nov 23, 2009


Possum Launcher posted:

Not even. The Mustang was 1.23 seconds faster, which is only about 1.5% faster with a 50% power advantage. To me, that means the BRZ made up a huge amount of ground with either cornering ability or driver confidence, probably some of each. That sounds like a win to me.

Wait, let me put my racing helmet on.

yeah, a win by -1.23 seconds. it made up ground by falling behind, a total win.

By comparison, The v6 mustang was only 1.42 seconds behind the BMW m3 which has 109 more horsepower when driven by the same driver . To me, that means the mustang made up a huge amount of ground with either cornering ability or driver confidence, probably some of each.

So one can conclude, if the BRZ wins against the mustang, and the mustang wins against the M3, the BRZ must win easily against the m3.

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AfricanBootyShine
Jan 9, 2006

Snake wins.

To me, it's a price/performance ratio. According to that video, I can get a car that's faster both in a straight line and on the track, with a superior aftermarket, room for a turbo, the same gas mileage, and cheap parts, for the exact same price.

AfricanBootyShine fucked around with this message at 01:53 on May 4, 2012

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