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GlassEye-Boy posted:Weren't Koreans the ones claiming that Sun Yat Sen was Korean? No.
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May 9, 2012 05:20
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All asian countries are full of ultra nationalistic ethnocentric fuckwits though. Revisionist history is like the norm. You should hear some historical "arguments" on various issues between NE/SE asian nations in matters of culture or territory. Sometimes it's hilarious and sad because of the blatant disregard of facts or reality. Like for instance Thais outright manufacture their history and it's full of magic and fantasy. Anything to avoid admitting that they might have been part of the Khmer empire.GlassEye-Boy posted:Weren't Koreans the ones claiming that Sun Yat Sen was Korean? edit: Haha nevermind I won't fan the flames here..
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May 9, 2012 05:36
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Modus Operandi posted:Like for instance Thais outright manufacture their history and it's full of magic and fantasy. Anything to avoid admitting that they might have been part of the Khmer empire. Yeah, the whole, "Your religion, your dancing, your royal dress, your building style - you stole it ALL from Cambodia" thing is always fun for pestering the girlfriend.
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May 9, 2012 05:49
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ReindeerF posted:I wore my Cambodian "Preah Vihear - Kingdom of Cambodia" t-shirt in the neutral territory of Laos and a friend's Thai wife, who has always been very nice, was there. She asked why people were laughing at my shirt and he explained what it meant. Afterward, she was pissy with me for the rest of the trip, heh.
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May 9, 2012 06:03
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Modus Operandi posted:All asian countries are full of ultra nationalistic ethnocentric fuckwits though. Revisionist history is like the norm. You should hear some historical "arguments" on various issues between NE/SE asian nations in matters of culture or territory. Sometimes it's hilarious and sad because of the blatant disregard of facts or reality. Like for instance Thais outright manufacture their history and it's full of magic and fantasy. Anything to avoid admitting that they might have been part of the Khmer empire. Yeah I know that, it just gets to be a pain when people seem to fight more over who was what 5,000 years ago and it's fun to make fun of it while seeming to ignore a lot of the controversies from the last century. The fun thing is when basically all of Asia gets angry at a Japanese politician saying something very, very terrible.
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May 9, 2012 06:09
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Weren't Koreans the ones claiming that Sun Yat Sen was Korean? Dunno about that, but I believe some of them have claimed that Confucius was Korean.
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May 9, 2012 06:13
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Donraj posted:Dunno about that, but I believe some of them have claimed that Confucius was Korean. Oh yes they have. They also claim that the Dragon Boat festival is Korean, as are Cherry Blossoms. They also claimed to have been forced into battle by the US in the Vietnam war with nothing but sticks and shields. Pretty standard NE Asian revisionism: 1. we are peace loving victims and 2. our ingenuity is unsurpassed.
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May 9, 2012 06:23
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LP97S posted:Yeah I know that, it just gets to be a pain when people seem to fight more over who was what 5,000 years ago and it's fun to make fun of it while seeming to ignore a lot of the controversies from the last century. The fun thing is when basically all of Asia gets angry at a Japanese politician saying something very, very terrible. I was always an enthusiastic supporter of our multiculturalism in America (believe it or not, it was a major topic of some complex political controversy when I was younger), but I didn't truly appreciate what a valuable asset it is as part of the national character until I lived and spent time in the ethnically nationalist countries of East Asia. I mean, imagine an American of one race saying to any person on the street, "Oh, you speak English!? You're very smart!" based on their appearance, as happens in Asia constantly. I know, I know, every country here has a bunch of ethnic minorities, but living in most countries here you know pretty well how that works out - you're either "Thai" (whether Thai-Chinese or actually Thai) or you're part of some powerless hill tribe or you're a Muslim separatist or something. If you manage to eke your way out of the minority and gain wealth and power in mainstream society, you become "Thai" magically. I'm guessing it's the same way with Han Chinese in China, probably even more strict, and Korea, and Japan and so on. Obviously it gets very fuzzy once you get south of Thailand where all the archipelago nations and former British colonies are. ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 06:52 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 06:42
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menino posted:They also claimed to have been forced into battle by the US in the Vietnam war with nothing but sticks and shields. God I hope you meant to say "Korean War"
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May 9, 2012 07:19
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ReindeerF posted:Wasn't there some phrase from either Ho Chi Minh or a famous Japanese general that went something to the effect of, "The reason the West always dominates us is that when there's a conflict, they'll put aside their differences and work together to win, while we'll squabble with one another and individually either cut deals with them or fall to defeat." I know I read something like that (much more eloquent and succinct) somewhere years ago in the context of a noted Asian's commentary on relations between the countries and the history of colonialism (obviously the West's dominance is far more questionable these days, especially heading into the future). That statement coming from a Japanese general is puzzling too. The Japanese had every opportunity in the world to create a real pan-asian empire. They decided to squander it on military rape and torture fantasies instead. Interestingly enough the nations they did treat somewhat well (like the country formerly known as Formosa) the people were at least pretty comfortable in being willing subjects of Japan. You still have old Taiwanese grannies who believe they are Japanese or something deep down. It's the only time that i've heard of the Japanese actually winning hearts and minds anywhere during that period. So it was well within their ability to replicate this sort of colonial success but they decided to be heavy handed assholes about it elsewhere.
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May 9, 2012 07:28
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menino posted:Oh yes they have. They also claim that the Dragon Boat festival is Korean, as are Cherry Blossoms. They also claimed to have been forced into battle by the US in the Vietnam war with nothing but sticks and shields. Yes but who are exactly "they?" Academics? Politicians? Students? Shoe-makers? Butchers? Nationalistic Netizens? The only example I saw of Koreans claiming Confucius as a Korean was from a Japanese program... On the other hand there is a strong push by Chinese academics to include historical peoples that have resided in what is now called "Dongbei" or more commonly known in the West as "Manchuria" as part of Chinese history, this includes the Korean kingdoms of Koguryo and Balhae. Actually I have been to Ji'an, Jilin on a Chinese tour group to visit Koguryo Pyramids and tombs. The tour guides strongly urged us tourists that Koguryo is Chinese history and has no connection with Korea. As an American-trained historian on East Asia, I was very agitated by the claim, especially coming from a government run-site. Here is more background on the The Korea-China History War I think rumors spread around the internet is pretty innocuous as long as the majority of the people aren't gullible. Where I think it becomes dangerous is when governments attempt to form a historical narrative that promotes a skewed nationalistic bent that shits on history for their own petty political gains. Ronald Spiers fucked around with this message at 07:35 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 07:32
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Ronald Spiers posted:Yes but who are exactly "they?" Academics? Politicians? Students? Shoe-makers? Butchers? Nationalistic Netizens? I heard it from co-workers while in the Seoul public school system, not very often though, and it's true that China often pushes a lot of BS too about Goguryeo and Balhae in a much more official capacity than I ever heard in Korea. I suppose the difference was the comparisons were much more pointed in Korea and offered with little or no prodding, probably because they are the smaller, less known party in the dispute and think about China more often than the Chinese think about Korea. Donraj posted:God I hope you meant to say "Korean War" No, Vietnam. I heard this from a friend of mine.
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May 9, 2012 07:38
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Donraj posted:God I hope you meant to say "Korean War" No, South Korea did deploy forces in Vietnam during the Vietnam War at the urging of the United States. Korean deployments to Vietnam peaked at 50,000 with a total of 320,000 Korean soldiers at one point deployed in Vietnam, making it the largest deployment of foreign troops besides the United States. ADDENDUM: The US paid the South Korean government, the Park Regime, $235 million for the deployment which ended up quintupling the GNP. LP97S fucked around with this message at 07:43 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 07:41
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Ronald Spiers posted:The only example I saw of Koreans claiming Confucius as a Korean was from a Japanese program... I knew a professor, a fairly well-known Confucian scholar, who sat through a conference presentation where a Korean scholar claimed just that. I want to say that the conference was in China, but I'm not sure. EDIT: quote:No, South Korea did deploy forces in Vietnam during the Vietnam War at the urging of the United States. Korean deployments to Vietnam peaked at 50,000 with a total of 320,000 Korean soldiers at one point deployed in Vietnam, making it the largest deployment of foreign troops besides the United States. I did not know that.
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May 9, 2012 07:42
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Donraj posted:I knew a professor, a fairly well-known Confucian scholar, who sat through a conference presentation where a Korean scholar claimed just that. I want to say that the conference was in China, but I'm not sure. Can you substantiate anything about this incident? What are there names and which universities to these folks work for? I would like to read their academic works.
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May 9, 2012 07:57
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Ronald Spiers posted:Can you substantiate anything about this incident? What are there names and which universities to these folks work for? I would like to read their academic works. Sorry, no, he just mentioned it in class once. Though apparently it was pretty awkward since he was asked to comment on the presentation right afterwards.
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May 9, 2012 07:59
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LP97S posted:I took this with a grain of salt because people sometimes get a bit defensive of their country's history but I could see it happening. Whether it's true or not, Koreans have a reputation for making nationalist claims that are a little out there. China and Japan have also been known to make grandiose claims but I think Korea's are often a little weirder because they don't have the obvious historical accomplishments. Yes they were an interesting and at times very innovative people, but I feel like they sometimes, maybe subconsciously, feel the need to lay claim to some things that the Chinese or Japanese wouldn't because they already have that sort of accomplishment in their established history. It's important to remember that in historical terms all Asian states are young states. A lot of the odd things these governments do are common behaviors of young political systems.
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May 9, 2012 13:36
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Arglebargle III posted:It's important to remember that in historical terms all Asian states are young states. A lot of the odd things these governments do are common behaviors of young political systems. Compared to ... Germany? I don't want to snipe here, but I think you need to explain or qualify what you mean by this. When you put states in "historical terms" you fuzz the meaning of the word rather alot.
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May 9, 2012 13:44
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GuestBob posted:Compared to ... Germany? I personally view it as a matter of three or four phases. Late 18th/early 19th Century states (US/France/England), mid to late 19th Century states (Japan/Italy/Germany), and 20th century interwar (Turkey, Central Europe) and post WWII states (NE Asia, a lot of others) There's really only about 150 years between all of them, but it makes a big difference.
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May 9, 2012 15:17
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The modern German state can charitably be dated to the aftermath of WWI, but strictly speaking is a product of the Marshall plan period following WWII. If you are considering the PRC as young (and so disregarding the CCP claim to be the direct inheritors of the original republican China vision), then you certainly cannot credibly argue China is much younger than Germany. And Japan is arguably changed even more radically than China in the war, so I don't know how one can argue it's a 19th century state. Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:12 on May 9, 2012 |
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May 9, 2012 17:10
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He's talking about the 19th century European idea of a Nation State, as distinct from multi-national, multi-ethnic empires like the Austro-Hungarian, Tsarist Russian, Ottoman and Qing. Notably all 4 of the latter declined precipitously throughout the late 1800s and had ceased to exist by the end of WW1, just as modern nation states like Britain and Japan reached the heights of their power. The status of places like Tibet, or the Caucasus, are ambiguos today because they had previously been part of multi-national empires that have successor states.
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May 9, 2012 17:23
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Arglebargle III posted:Whether it's true or not, Koreans have a reputation for making nationalist claims that are a little out there. China and Japan have also been known to make grandiose claims but I think Korea's are often a little weirder because they don't have the obvious historical accomplishments. Yes they were an interesting and at times very innovative people, but I feel like they sometimes, maybe subconsciously, feel the need to lay claim to some things that the Chinese or Japanese wouldn't because they already have that sort of accomplishment in their established history. Again, who are these Koreans that make nationalist claims? And what do they claim that is so grandiose? Any John Doe or Hong Gildong can make a claim, it doesn't mean it is officially accepted by the government or education system or by the general population. You are being way too general. I know Koreans like to talk about their four seasons and their alphabet. But what other claims that you deem is weird? Do Koreans just bring out their national achievements out of the ether when you have conversations with them? Throatwarbler posted:He's talking about the 19th century European idea of a Nation State, as distinct from multi-national, multi-ethnic empires like the Austro-Hungarian, Tsarist Russian, Ottoman and Qing. Notably all 4 of the latter declined precipitously throughout the late 1800s and had ceased to exist by the end of WW1, just as modern nation states like Britain and Japan reached the heights of their power. I thought Britain was a multi-ethnic empire... and it is still a multi-ethnic collection of countries. How was Britain different from the other multi-ethnic empires? The modern naton state of China also pretty much constitutes the same territory and people of Qing China minus half of Mongolia and Taiwan. How would you label the PRC today? A multi-ethnic nation state with Chinese characteristics?
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May 9, 2012 19:21
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Ronald Spiers posted:Again, who are these Koreans that make nationalist claims? And what do they claim that is so grandiose? Any John Doe or Hong Gildong can make a claim, it doesn't mean it is officially accepted by the government or education system or by the general population. You are being way too general. I know Koreans like to talk about their four seasons and their alphabet. But what other claims that you deem is weird? Do Koreans just bring out their national achievements out of the ether when you have conversations with them? I know that at least one Korean cable station (OnGameNet) would at times have their station watermark change to say "DOKDO IS KOREAN TERRITORY".
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May 9, 2012 20:42
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Yeah, I had read somewhere that the professor who claimed Confucius was Korean was actually a myth made up by the Chinese media. Then when I looked for a source for that information, I realized I had learned it from blog posts. When will the truth be revealed?!! 
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May 9, 2012 23:30
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GuestBob posted:Compared to ... Germany? There are a lot of young states. Germany and France are both pretty young in terms of political systems since they got new ones after the war. Young not compared to anything, really. A state that has had its constitution thrown out and its rules for governance rewritten in the last 50 years I would consider a young state, but that's not an absolute number. It takes a while for a political system to settle into a routine is all. I don't actually have primary sources about Korea! Crazy fact, a lot of people get their information from secondary sources. I know, I should have an exhaustively researched statement for you. But I don't! How shameful! Now I will have to go play Starcraft for 78 hours until I die and the doctors blame the fan in the room.
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May 10, 2012 01:58
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Another thing that probalby plays a big part in this "we originated it!" stuff is tourism and the way all of the countries in the region emphasize exports, especially to the West. Lacking a lot of the tropical draws of SE Asia, they all try to compete on historical resonance. Would you rather go to Qufu or beautiful breezy Daejeon? Confucius may very well have been from either city!! Why Kyoto? Come watch us make world-famous makkeolli in Wonju! etc
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May 10, 2012 02:18
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Arglebargle III posted:
Sounds like a case of spreading false and dangerous rumors! In China you would be censored! I had firsthand account of experiencing nationalistic sentiment in China approved by the local government at a site approved by UNESCO as a world heritage site. Your claims are unfounded generalizations. More concrete examples would be more helpful in the discussion about Asian nationalism(s). I still find the Japanese video of Korea claiming Confucius as Korean to be very suspicious. I've never met a Korean professor that claims that. eSports Chaebol posted:I know that at least one Korean cable station (OnGameNet) would at times have their station watermark change to say "DOKDO IS KOREAN TERRITORY". If this is true I don't see anything crazy about it. Territorial disputes are common among countries. It isn't like claiming a cultural tradition of another culture as one's own. menino posted:Another thing that probalby plays a big part in this "we originated it!" stuff is tourism and the way all of the countries in the region emphasize exports, especially to the West. Lacking a lot of the tropical draws of SE Asia, they all try to compete on historical resonance. Personally I don't think China and Japan need to compete for tourists. They are inherently already enticing tourist destinations considering all the famous historical, natural, and modern sites they have. I have however noticed Korea, Malaysia, and Taiwan tourist boards pushing heavily as a tourist destination. I don't see them promoting ridiculous claims though.
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May 10, 2012 04:12
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One of the more interesting thing I found out recently was the extent of the propaganda in Middle School Geography textbooks. I thought they would be about earth science, etc., which they mostly are, but when it comes to Taiwan and other geographical areas of interest, out comes the most nebulous language. Even things like island disputes with Russia in the Northeast. Nothing is safe!
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May 10, 2012 04:31
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Ronald Spiers posted:
Yeah, China and Japan are set. As far as the claims Korea's advertising might not try to overdo it (except for Visit Seoul Year!!! 2010-2012!!!) , but when you actually go to the places, they lay it on really thick. I had a lady give me a 20 minute spiel at Chang Deok Gung in Seoul about some kind of style of poetry and gave me about six books and tried to get me to send them back to the US to donate to a library. It's not exactly DokdoISOURS or anything, just really really pushy.
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May 10, 2012 04:52
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So when did the Chinese start referring to Seoul as 首耳 instead of 汉城 ?
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May 10, 2012 05:02
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Throatwarbler posted:So when did the Chinese start referring to Seoul as 首耳 instead of 汉城 ? 2005 by relevant Chinese bodies. Chinese folks still usually call it Hancheng though.
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May 10, 2012 05:08
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Hey look another Asian island dispute:quote:China travel agencies 'suspend Philippine tours' Personally the Scarborough Shoal looks amazingly close to the Philippines geographically but I do like(meaning I find it amusing) how China claim it based on historical reasons, very much in-line with the previous discussions about the use of history for political ends. Anyone believe there will be future repercussions throughout the region because of the heightening of tensions? China likes to paint itself as someone that doesn't interfere with the internal affairs of other nations(Taiwan excepted) but it seems other smaller neighbors are getting fed up with China. Burma suspended certain projects run by the Chinese. The Spratly Islands has always been contentious with all neighbors. Or will this just blow over?
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May 10, 2012 08:17
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Ronald Spiers posted:
The Philippines situation is probably more serious but the modern identity of Filipinos has always been intertwined with the U.S. They still believe they are a de facto colony and a lot of neighbors around the Philippines don't really trust them because of it. So it's highly unlikely any other nation will join in with the Philippines if it became a shooting war. If it happened it would be completely unprecedented in modern history. The last time two asian nations joined (willingly) to war with another was back in the Imjin wars with China and Korea vs Japan. I don't count WW2 because Japan essentially colonized and forced people to fight (or be executed) for Imperial Japan.
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May 10, 2012 09:18
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Ronald Spiers posted:Hey look another Asian island dispute: I have just finished a two week news extravaganza (research several stories, write and deliver a news-like presentation whilst being recorded) with 100 Chinese college students and it has been fascinating how many of them wanted to do this story at first, but then changed their minds after looking at a few of the maps on the BBC.
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May 10, 2012 09:58
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I remember when America first invaded a place no American could find on a map. China's taking its first imperial baby steps.  At least your students had the decency to reconsider their opinions after looking at a map.
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May 10, 2012 10:45
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Arglebargle III posted:At least your students had the decency to reconsider their opinions after looking at a map. If you can't convince a group of brainwashed, naive young Chinese kids that something belongs to China then who can you convince? You know, a big part of me wonders whether the CCP is a bit cagey about being able to win this kind of dispute and will therefore let the whole thing slide after dipping their dick in the water. Remember the media context - scandals and an upcoming change of government. Nothing better to shore up a transition than a firm stance on how many Chinas there are. GuestBob fucked around with this message at 12:57 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 12:52
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Ronald Spiers posted:Hey look another Asian island dispute: EDIT: I assume Chinoy allegiance is to the Phils, but I've never asked any Filipino-Chinese friends. Someone ring up Amy Chua! EDIT EDIT: Come to think of it, this'd be handy here too. When you live in a heavily touristed country you can make a laundry list of the most annoying nationalities to deal with as tourists. I have a bit of a soft spot for the stereotypical Chinese tourist as they (more often than some others) alter their behavior when they realize they're being obnoxious to everyone within shouting distance, but they're still on the list. So, you know, if we can gin up a conflict China and Thailand I'll support that. India and Thailand would be most preferable, especially when dealing with airport queues. ReindeerF fucked around with this message at 13:10 on May 10, 2012 |
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May 10, 2012 12:54
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After Philippine police's complete failure in rescuing the Hong Kong tourists, why would any Chinese tourist want to go to Philippine? Don't flatter yourself.
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May 10, 2012 17:37
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whatever7 posted:After Philippine police's complete failure in rescuing the Hong Kong tourists, why would any Chinese tourist want to go to Philippine? Don't flatter yourself. The same reason why Chinese tourists flood the rest of SE Asia. #1 It's not too pricey and visas are easy #2 it's different #3 oceans with actual living fish #4 foo foo picture opportunities Money Chinese tourists aren't as interested in the sexy-time activities since China has its own well stocked domestic market but the danger factor doesn't matter when you consider the market and how many Chinese will ignore that.
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May 10, 2012 17:55
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Chinese tourism (for the masses, which is who we're talking about) is packaged and largely driven by cost - safety and entertainment value are way down the list. As long as you can smoke like a chimney, ride together in a giant bus with your entire extended family and haggle over fake Louis Vuitton bags at every stop they'll buy tickets. That said, I don't recall them being huge tourists to the Phils over the years I spent there, but I doubt it was safety related. Tons of Japanese and Koreans, who are much less price-sensitive than the Chinese.
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May 10, 2012 18:24
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