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Socket Ryanist
Aug 30, 2004

In terms of quality per dollar, probably.

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Penguissimo
Apr 7, 2007

Wendy's is better than McDonald's too but I sure as hell wouldn't brag about the great meal I got at either place.

Gram-O-Phone
Mar 9, 2007

Oh, play that thing!

KozmoNaut posted:

Urge to sperg... Rising! :argh:

Fight it, man!

Theris
Oct 9, 2007

Penguissimo posted:

Wendy's is better than McDonald's too but I sure as hell wouldn't brag about the great meal I got at either place.

This analogy only holds up if McDonalds and Wendy's charge as much for a burger as a good steakhouse charges for filet.

Pudgygiant
Apr 8, 2004

Garnet and black? More like gold and blue or whatever the fuck colors these are
http://www.head-fi.org/t/554008/dont-get-why-audiophile-usb-cable-would-improve-sound-quality

47 page argument about USB cables. God I love Head-Fi, it's like Youtube comments by rich people.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Pudgygiant posted:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/554008/dont-get-why-audiophile-usb-cable-would-improve-sound-quality

47 page argument about USB cables. God I love Head-Fi, it's like Youtube comments by rich people.

This just corroborates my theory that anyone named Travis is a douche bag. (If anyone here is called Travis: I believe you are a douche bag vOv)

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

God that thread is depressing. I'm actually amazed people use USB for music seeing as it's not vinyl...

*goes back to reading up on physics*

Manchild King
Oct 22, 2010
Misogynistic, self-absorbed, incredibly unfunny asshole. BLOCK ME or I will steal your face for creepy fetish porn!
I recently got into analog audio and well I have no idea what to believe on some stuff. Absolute minefield out there for the layman just trying to do some basic research. Last night I was seconds away from buying a $110 Achromat that I can't really afford. This morning I was reading up on needles and cartridges. 3+ hours later I still have no idea what I should even really be spending for a decent one. Everyones opinion on "decent" is different. Everyones opinion on "good sound" is different.

The typical audiophile advice would be audition audition audition. But even the more highend stores in the capital cities are not going to have every model available, with every possible gear configuration. Hell many of the recommended brands on avs forum are internet direct. The only real solution would be to buy every model on my shortlist and then sell everything else (taking a massive financial hit in the process).

Another thing I have noticed is the thats good enough guys. On the opposite side of the audiophile spectrum are guys like my dad and some members of this very forum. I'll call them the "that's good enough" guys. I saw some elitist audiophiles calling them "mid-fi enthusiasts". I think it's great that you feel your 1972 receiver and monoprice speakers are the pinnacle of high end. Even though the reality is that it was a mid tier reciever when bought new and is way out of spec. While just as delusional as the the money bleeding tweaker audiophile at least these types don't send themselves broke.

Ignorance is bliss. The more I learn the more I want to spend.

*edit* I have figured out why audiophiles prefer vinyl. I'm thinking it's because with records there are so many potential points of failure in a system, this gives audiophiles many many things to upgrade and tweak whether the problem is real or imagined. I actually own two short lengths of monster cable. I figured it was worth it for the peace of mind, even though they likely sound the same as coathangers. I suppose that's what audiophiles are really buying. Peace of mind. The knowledge that a certain component isn't letting down the rest of the system.

Manchild King fucked around with this message at 08:40 on May 13, 2012

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Manchild King posted:

*edit* I have figured out why audiophiles prefer vinyl. I'm thinking it's because with records there are so many potential points of failure in a system, this gives audiophiles many many things to upgrade and tweak whether the problem is real or imagined. I actually own two short lengths of monster cable. I figured it was worth it for the peace of mind, even though they likely sound the same as coathangers. I suppose that's what audiophiles are really buying. Peace of mind. The knowledge that a certain component isn't letting down the rest of the system.

I think you're exactly right. Analog audio reproduction leaves room for tweaking and unlike with digital audio reproduction, a fair number of these tweaks actually do something, for good or bad.

Like for instance interconnects. With a turntable, the output is very delicate and needs a lot of amplification, which is why you need good-quality interconnects to preserve the signal and shield against interference. Then you have things like cleaning the records, vibration damping, heavy turntable platters and so on.

A lot of audiophiles then erroneously believe that these very same tweaks (and more, like green pens) also apply to digital audio reproduction and you get insane poo poo like people spending $1000+ on USB cables. Digital has lowered the bar for how much you need to spend to get good sound, and I think a lot of elitist audiophiles hate digital for precisely that reason.

I think you could call me a "it's good enough" kind of guy. $2000 second-hand speakers (from a very well-respected brand, though) and a 15 year old Pioneer stereo amp, fed directly from my PC, and it sounds bloody good to my ears. I just don't feel like spending more money on equipment is worth it considering how small my apartment is and the limits of my living room.

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Manchild King posted:

*edit* I have figured out why audiophiles prefer vinyl. I'm thinking it's because with records there are so many potential points of failure in a system, this gives audiophiles many many things to upgrade and tweak whether the problem is real or imagined.

Well it's more to do with the fact that digital recordings are "best reproductions" of the original analogue signal. Computers aren't very good at drawing true curved lines, and in terms of audio this means that in synthesising the audio output it merely produces a bar-chart like reproduction of the sound. For the vast majority of people this is fine, but because digital methods strip the music of the inaudible (greater than 2 kilohertz) registers to keep the file size low, most old-schoolers don't like this as it apparently robs the music of its "warmth" on playback, and while there are a few studies that report that inaudible frequencies can still affect the mind, I feel that any difference is negligible at the very most.

Edit: oh I suppose I should mention, CDs still have greater than the 20kH line, up to 24kH I believe? But vinyl allows ridiculous levels of Hertz simply by being analogue (thus not limited by digital space saving techniques).

Tesseraction fucked around with this message at 09:55 on May 13, 2012

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Tesseraction posted:

Well it's more to do with the fact that digital recordings are "best reproductions" of the original analogue signal. Computers aren't very good at drawing true curved lines, and in terms of audio this means that in synthesising the audio output it merely produces a bar-chart like reproduction of the sound. For the vast majority of people this is fine, but because digital methods strip the music of the inaudible (greater than 2 kilohertz) registers to keep the file size low, most old-schoolers don't like this as it apparently robs the music of its "warmth" on playback, and while there are a few studies that report that inaudible frequencies can still affect the mind, I feel that any difference is negligible at the very most.

Edit: oh I suppose I should mention, CDs still have greater than the 20kH line, up to 24kH I believe? But vinyl allows ridiculous levels of Hertz simply by being analogue (thus not limited by digital space saving techniques).

No goddammit. This is the stupidest misconception ever and self-proclaimed audiophile "experts" like to parade it around telling everyone that there are "gaps" in digital sound or that they can hear the "staircases".

If you generate a 20kHz perfectly analog sine wave, record it digitally in 44.1kHz 16bit CD-quality and then play both that and the original analog 20kHz source back into a good oscilloscope, you WILL NOT be able to tell the difference between the original analog-generated sine wave and the digital recording. There is NO DIFFERENCE.

Anyone who still thinks that digital audio consists of "bar charts" or "stairsteps" or whatever need to educate themselves and read up on the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem as well as the method by which analog-digital and digital-analog converters work.

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Uh... I know? I wasn't agreeing I was explaining the audiophile delusion?

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Tesseraction posted:

Uh... I know? I wasn't agreeing I was explaining the audiophile delusion?

Good.

But please put in a disclaimer next time. My blood pressure can't take that kind of punishment ;)

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009

Doubting me on Something Awful?! You have made a POWERFUL ENEMY, my FRIEND.

*quickly records a song about how much you suck at 96kbit using gold ethernet cables*

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!
Vinyls are goddamn hilarious. Disregarding all the inaccuracies that are introduced while manufacturing them (like the master not being 100% clean when pressing the vinyl, density fluctuations in the vinyl platter), the playback is another tier of stupid. You're dealing with a gravity based groove sensing. It all depends on the flexibility of the needle and the pressure of the head, both influencing the inertia and thus the actual read out of the groove. The needle might not be falling into the hole by following the groove, but by using rises as a ramp. Then, because the needle might be jumping around like nuts, the low frequencies are attentuanted to poo poo while high frequencies are raised (see RIAA equalization, and the low frequencies, because they are what make the whole arm jump). That's why you need a preamp, if it's not built-in, to revert this. Considering that audiophiles seem to be all about the most accurate reproduction of somebody's works, vinyl is by definition the worst contemporary transport medium ever.

KozmoNaut posted:

If you generate a 20kHz perfectly analog sine wave, record it digitally in 44.1kHz 16bit CD-quality and then play both that and the original analog 20kHz source back into a good oscilloscope, you WILL NOT be able to tell the difference between the original analog-generated sine wave and the digital recording. There is NO DIFFERENCE.

Anyone who still thinks that digital audio consists of "bar charts" or "stairsteps" or whatever need to educate themselves and read up on the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem as well as the method by which analog-digital and digital-analog converters work.
DACs actually filter the audio to reduce/remove any stepping, no matter how fine grained it is. Not to mention that tho devices act digitally, they're still implemented in an analog world. And the actual output system is also again inertia based. The speaker cone would filter any steppings to begin with.

--edit: That said, sampling a 20khz sine wave at 44khz will result in a whacky digital sampling, that relies on the DAC doing its job 100% correctly (which they don't). Because you won't be capturing the peaks of each undulation.

Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 11:58 on May 13, 2012

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

I believe the main reason for the "analog is better" scene these days is the fact that there was a buttload of really really lovely-sounding CDs (and also some really bad design desicions in some CD players) in the early days and, for enthusiasts, nothing ever improves. Bought a lovely-sounding Whistle Bait CD? All CDs have lovely sound. Heard an early CD player with 32133-bit processing? All CD players are poo poo. Start your hi-fi hobby back in the fifties when user-made 'tweaks' actually did improve the sound? Soldering a bent paper clip onto your cartridge body is the only thing standing between you and audio nirvana.

Ron Burgundy
Dec 24, 2005
This burrito is delicious, but it is filling.

Combat Pretzel posted:

Vinyls

Ugh this word is the worst thing to happen to this hobby since Crosley turntables.

It's records.

Socket Ryanist
Aug 30, 2004

Jerry Cotton posted:

I believe the main reason for the "analog is better" scene these days is the fact that there was a buttload of really really lovely-sounding CDs (and also some really bad design desicions in some CD players) in the early days and, for enthusiasts, nothing ever improves.
I think it's more that people will tend to prefer the thing they understand to the thing they don't.

There are a lot of people out there who are very knowledgable/skilled with analog electronics but clueless about how digital stuff works, and they likely will defend analog hardware as a result.

ShamrockShake
Sep 8, 2011

by Y Kant Ozma Post

Pudgygiant posted:

http://www.head-fi.org/t/554008/dont-get-why-audiophile-usb-cable-would-improve-sound-quality

47 page argument about USB cables. God I love Head-Fi, it's like Youtube comments by rich people.

I found this gem on page 12 while looking for more "travisg" & "uelover" posts.



I'm having trouble actually parsing this sentence, but is that a site administrator banishing all talk of hard scientific methods? Do audiophiles have to resort to wildly attacking simple protocols to defend their fragile world? Amazing. I'm terribly happy that I'll never be an audiophile.

Also, I love how "uelover" always advances a theory in one sentence, and always dismisses the need to explain it in the next.

insane headfi.org user uelover posted:

This puzzles me too. I see it as better cables not squeezing/adding more data into the data stream but being able to carry them to the destination with less loss. As a result of that, it will appear as if they are more resolving.

I am not trying to explain the physics behind it but am looking for a convincing reason myself too.

Its an entire forum half-populated with people demanding that everyone ignore the man behind the curtain.

I've not seen this density of crazy outside of a bodybuilding forum. Wonderful stuff, thanks for sharing Pudgygiant.

ShamrockShake fucked around with this message at 05:56 on May 14, 2012

Olympic Mathlete
Feb 25, 2011

:h:

^^ I particularly like how that fella's tag is "it's all in your head".

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

ShamrockShake posted:

I'm having trouble actually parsing this sentence, but is that a site administrator banishing all talk of hard scientific methods? Do audiophiles have to resort to wildly attacking simple protocols to defend their fragile world? Amazing. I'm terribly happy that I'll never be an audiophile.
Yeah, because DBTs crush ten thousands of little souls (and each their tens of thousands of dollars) each time they're been done.

And it doesn't even need blind tests, it just needs some common sense (which they obviously lack). I mean, I've posted about this before, but on Head-Fi there was a huge discussion about how super loving great sounding a power cord is, that's manufactured in my company. Jesus gently caress, I work in manufacturing and know the whole production process, and it shows that they have no loving clue about how their magic devices are actually manufactured. And how crude it actually is. I was tempted to take pictures of all machinery used for said product and try to tank the thread, just to see how they're going to explain these away. But that would get me into deep poo poo for industrial espionage.

They're generally in denial, anyway, because another company is still in good faith with them, after this happened to one of their products:





quote:

Yes, a poster on the Head-Fi forums had his fancy-pants power cable disemboweled by his cat, only to discover very little of value inside. Once ripped open, all he found was "a couple of bucks worth of 14 AWG PVC insulated bulk wire (VD's "LiniPur" conductors) and some ferrite powder, (VD's "5 dielectric layers") shoved into some heavy braided-wall PVC tubing to make it appear thick and meaty, and put together with dirt cheap connectors and DIY build quality."

Combat Pretzel fucked around with this message at 11:29 on May 14, 2012

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


"DIY build quality", my rear end. I would be ashamed to have anything that badly constructed anywhere near my outlets.

More like "Bodge job build quality".

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Combat Pretzel posted:

They're generally in denial, anyway, because another company is still in good faith with them, after this happened to one of their products:



Well, at least it works (until eaten by cat) just as well as any high-end power cable.

Pudgygiant
Apr 8, 2004

Garnet and black? More like gold and blue or whatever the fuck colors these are
Some of the posts in the DIY cable thread on there are gold too. I get that multi-stranded cable the combined thickness of 1 strand of fiber is going to be poo poo, but making DIY headphone cables out of single-strand gold 14/0 is going a little bit overboard.

edit
oh god here's how audiophile rumors get started

Pudgygiant fucked around with this message at 12:39 on May 14, 2012

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Pudgygiant posted:

oh god here's how audiophile rumors get started

Even better: http://www.head-fi.org/t/570621/flac-vs-320-mp3#post_8267530

:psyduck:

danbanana
Jun 7, 2008

OG Bell's fanboi

This... is a joke, right? I mean, this guy has to be trolling? HAS TO BE?

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!
If Weekend Web taught me one thing, it's that there's A LOT of REALLY loving STUPID PEOPLE out there on the Internet.

Pudgygiant
Apr 8, 2004

Garnet and black? More like gold and blue or whatever the fuck colors these are
Yeah the one I posted was the end of that brilliant line of logic. It's amazing how little people know about these systems they dump 5 or 6 figures into.

Banano
Jan 10, 2005
Soiled Meat

I know I'm just repeating what's been said but honestly, :wtc:

drat my morals/self respect, they're standing between me and a small fortune.

Tesseraction
Apr 5, 2009


Oh God it's Bit Rot all over again, yesss.

HATE TROLL TIM
Dec 14, 2006
You see, over time, due to solar flares and cosmic background radiation, a hard drive's magnet platter slowly becomes demagnetized, thus fidelity loss in audio tracks.

A true audiophile will rip the CDs to WAV and then compress those into a RAR with a checksum and store it on a DVD-RW which is kept in a lead-lined safe. The checksums and RAR are stored on separate DVDs and kept in separate vaults, mind you.

This needs to be a thing. Let's all go over to Head-Fi and convince them.

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!
Throw this in for good measure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parchive

Pudgygiant
Apr 8, 2004

Garnet and black? More like gold and blue or whatever the fuck colors these are
But if you're not playing it back on something with audiophile-grade ECC RAM why does it even matter?

jonathan
Jul 3, 2005

by LITERALLY AN ADMIN
The annoying thing about this thread is the use of the term Audiophile. I would say a major portion of people in this thread are audiophiles. We just aren't gullible idiots.

Everyone here takes time to upgrade or tweak their sound system as much as is feasible to get their sound system sounding how they want or sounding as close to reference as possible.

I run 10 year old klipsch reference speakers because I like the detailed brights they offer, and I spend a good amount of time positioning speakers and adjusting amp settings etc. I am an Audiophile. I'm just not gullible.

HATE TROLL TIM
Dec 14, 2006
No, you're a music enthusiast. Audiophiles are gullible by their very nature.

Even though the -phile suffix means "to love something" it still has negative connotations for post people. Pedophiles, audiophiles, japanophiles.

People who like "Barely Legal" porn aren't pedophiles, they're just young pussy enthusiasts.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

gently caress me if I'm going to 'tweak' anything beyond using a protractor to align a cartridge and fiddling about with the positioning of a new pair of speakers for ten minutes tops. If I ever hear myself talking about 'detailed brights' with a straight face, I'm going to slap myself.

H13
Nov 30, 2005

Fun Shoe
Every bit of audiophilia that I've read seems to be in the quest of getting the most "accurate" sound possible so that it sounds EXACTLY like the source.

The funny part is that anybody who's ever done any recording is very much aware that there is never a point in time in which the sounds you record sound EXACTLY like the source. So unless they want to improve the recorded sound...

Gromit
Aug 15, 2000

I am an oppressed White Male, Asian women wont serve me! Save me Campbell Newman!!!!!!!

Jerry Cotton posted:

If I ever hear myself talking about 'detailed brights' with a straight face, I'm going to slap myself.

Haha, you took the words right out of my mouth. My level of hifi tinkering went as far as angling my speakers a little to point towards my couch and using the microphone gadget that came with my amp to set up the speaker delays and whatever else voodoo magic it did.

3D Megadoodoo
Nov 25, 2010

Gromit posted:

Haha, you took the words right out of my mouth. My level of hifi tinkering went as far as angling my speakers a little to point towards my couch and using the microphone gadget that came with my amp to set up the speaker delays and whatever else voodoo magic it did.

Speaker positioning is extremely important, though, I'm not arguing against it. Speakers are almost always the weakest link after the actual recording, anyway. I don't think I'll ever have speakers that give me the same sort of detail (as in "bits I didn't hear before") that I can get through my headphones.

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HATE TROLL TIM
Dec 14, 2006

Jerry Cotton posted:

Speaker positioning is extremely important, though, I'm not arguing against it. Speakers are almost always the weakest link after the actual recording, anyway. I don't think I'll ever have speakers that give me the same sort of detail (as in "bits I didn't hear before") that I can get through my headphones.

Basically this. I spent around $800 on a high end pair of Sennheisers and a nice USB/TOS DAC/Amp (Audio-gd Compass).

The amp is actually Chinese, but very nice. It has socketed op-amps, which allows you to easily fiddle with it to get, for lack of a better term, the sound temperature, to your liking. I ended up re-soldering a few connections because at the end of the day it's still made in China with lovely flux-core solder. I also replaced the volume potentiometer to get rid of balance issues at lower volume levels, in addition to static.

I maybe put a few hours work and $15 worth of parts in. I figure this is the best I'm going to get without getting into crazy audiophile territory.

You see people on Head-Fi comparing all these different amps, but what they don't realize is there's only so many ways to make a semi-conductor based amp. It's really all about using quality parts and workmanship.

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