Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

nessin posted:

Do you even realize what you've said here? You're already breaking out of the "Ultima" mold and using it as an example instead of hard line in the sand. How much further do we have to argue over this before you take another step back? I actually agree with you that you should know something about RPGs, but it doesn't have to be the classics. and it certainly doesn't have to be Ultima. Not knowing about any RPG in existence is proof you shouldn't be doing the job, not knowing about Ultima is just a small aberation.

In addition if a person is going to describe an RPG, in their own words formed from their own opinion, they absolutely can't do it without knowing the history of RPGs? How does knowing anything about Ultima prepare someone for being able to talk about the graphic or audio fidelity of a game? Even how they interact with the game, and the features presented in said game? Has the english language degenerated so much that you have to use analogies to games so old they're only conceptually related to teh game you're talking about it to get a point across?

It's not Ultima per se that's important. Rather, if a person is ignorant of the existence of Ultima - keep in mind that this doesn't mean not being an expert at Ultima, or even never having played it, but never having heard of it - then it's very probable that they don't know anything else about the entire RPG genre prior to 2000. That makes them ignorant of the historical context of the product they're reviewing. You are correct that such ignorance doesn't stop a person from from offering a superficial description of the product, but it sharply limits the insights they can offer into the game's design, which is, after all, what they're supposedly being paid to do. It also shows they're disinclined to put even token research into their supposed specialization; I shouldn't have to explain why that's bad.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

pw pw pw posted:

If only there were thousands of other rpg's you might be well-equipped to compare a new title to. It sure sucks for rpg fans that the genre died with ultima 13 years ago.

Good job on being proudly and willfully ignorant about the open world RPG that literally invented the genre I guess.

Cityinthesea
Aug 7, 2009
I know nothing about Ultima except for the name and that Lord British made himself a character in the game (those were those games, right?). Why the gently caress would I automatically do a better write up against someone who hasn't actually heard of it? I only heard about it like 3 years ago mind you.

Maybe someone didn't know of ultima because he wasn't a PC gamer...? Are you going to get on his case when instead of Ultima, he played Earthbound or whatever?

Azraden
Oct 26, 2010

Ooh - a crevice

Bongo Bill posted:

It also shows they're disinclined to put even token research into their supposed specialization; I shouldn't have to explain why that's bad.

Given the posts in this thread, I think you might have to.

So. Dragon's Dogma comes out in a few days, and I'm pretty much free 'til then. I've been wondering what I should finish while I wait. My choices are Nier (I think I'm about 1/4 through), Persona 4 (haven't started, but did watch Giant Bomb's endurance run), SMT: Nocturne (played until the first save point) or Legend of Grimrock (played about an hour). Any thoughts on which I should (or could, I know the SMT games are notoriously long) finish first?

Of course, this thread is starting to make me want to re-play Ultima 7 now too.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Azraden posted:

Given the posts in this thread, I think you might have to.

So. Dragon's Dogma comes out in a few days, and I'm pretty much free 'til then. I've been wondering what I should finish while I wait. My choices are Nier (I think I'm about 1/4 through), Persona 4 (haven't started, but did watch Giant Bomb's endurance run), SMT: Nocturne (played until the first save point) or Legend of Grimrock (played about an hour). Any thoughts on which I should (or could, I know the SMT games are notoriously long) finish first?

Of course, this thread is starting to make me want to re-play Ultima 7 now too.

Persona 4 took me about 80 hours. Definitely do not start it now.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Cityinthesea posted:

I know nothing about Ultima except for the name and that Lord British made himself a character in the game (those were those games, right?). Why the gently caress would I automatically do a better write up against someone who hasn't actually heard of it? I only heard about it like 3 years ago mind you.

Maybe someone didn't know of ultima because he wasn't a PC gamer...? Are you going to get on his case when instead of Ultima, he played Earthbound or whatever?

Then why is he writing about a pc game? That interview is specifically about Ultima VII's influence on Divine Divinity.

And I would expect all paid video game journalists to have knowledge of both Earthbound and Ultima, yes.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer


Amethyst posted:

We are literally talking about a journalist who interviewed an RPG developer you dunce.

I'm talking about the idea that "ALL GAMING JOURNALISTS NEED TO BE FAMILIAR WITH ULTIMA OR ELSE." I don't care about the example cause it's a non-starter for me.

Azraden
Oct 26, 2010

Ooh - a crevice

Amethyst posted:

And I would expect all paid video game journalists to have knowledge of both Earthbound and Ultima, yes.

I think this is something a lot of people are, willfully or otherwise, misunderstanding. Nobody says this guy should even play Ultima, let alone know it inside and out. But if he's writing about RPGs, it isn't much to ask that he has knowledge of it's existence and why it was so important.

Defiance Industries posted:

I'm talking about the idea that "ALL GAMING JOURNALISTS NEED TO BE FAMILIAR WITH ULTIMA OR ELSE." I don't care about the example cause it's a non-starter for me.

Good job arguing against something nobody said? :confused:

Ignite Memories
Feb 27, 2005

Amethyst posted:

Good job on being proudly and willfully ignorant about the open world RPG that literally invented the genre I guess.

I know plenty about ultima, you presumptuous rear end, I disagree with your opinion that video game reviewers need to be as deeply entrenched in history as a film critic because film critics rarely have to review films about elf bowling and matching cakes. Sorry it makes you feel old to think that ultima is no longer relevant to modern games journalism.

Fur20
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!

Cityinthesea posted:

Maybe someone didn't know of ultima because he wasn't a PC gamer...? Are you going to get on his case when instead of Ultima, he played Earthbound or whatever?

That's no excuse. I grew up on consoles exclusively, playing "Earthbound or whatever," and I still knew what Ultima was. No particulars, of course, but enough to know it was a pretty big thing at the time and to later understand what it was supposed to have meant for the industry. This is the information age, anyone can become a genius but nobody gives a gently caress.

For Azraden, pick up some casual older game, I dunno, rip your FF discs and play 'em in super fast mode in EPSXE or something. That'll fill the time enjoyably, but thanks to the frameskip, you won't be all "I'm gonna play Dragon's Dogma but I'm not finished yet but I really want to finish but fuuuuuuuuck"

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

pw pw pw posted:

I know plenty about ultima, you presumptuous rear end, I disagree with your opinion that video game reviewers need to be as deeply entrenched in history as a film critic because film critics rarely have to review films about elf bowling and matching cakes. Sorry it makes you feel old to think that ultima is no longer relevant to modern games journalism.

So why do you accept ignorance on the part of paid journalists? It is a poor standard for the media you consume. Do you simply not accept that knowledge of a subject leads to more interesting and meaningful writing on the subject?

Cityinthesea
Aug 7, 2009

Azraden posted:

Given the posts in this thread, I think you might have to.

So. Dragon's Dogma comes out in a few days, and I'm pretty much free 'til then. I've been wondering what I should finish while I wait. My choices are Nier (I think I'm about 1/4 through), Persona 4 (haven't started, but did watch Giant Bomb's endurance run), SMT: Nocturne (played until the first save point) or Legend of Grimrock (played about an hour). Any thoughts on which I should (or could, I know the SMT games are notoriously long) finish first?

Of course, this thread is starting to make me want to re-play Ultima 7 now too.

Playing through Nier (2nd time through is kinda required) will take roughly the amount of time it'll take to wait for Dogma, so I'd suggest that (also because it's the best game there but opinions)

TurnipFritter
Apr 21, 2010
10,000 POSTS ON TALKING TIME

Amethyst posted:

Then why is he writing about a pc game?

Because sometimes people are assigned jobs that are outside of their sphere of interest or expertise. It happens.

Amethyst posted:

That interview is specifically about Ultima VII's influence on Divine Divinity.


Which interview are you talking about? The only thing I'm seeing linked is this, and it sounds more like the journalists were invited to talk about project e and (Swen?) happened to bring up that Ultima VII was a big source of inspiration during the discussion.

Ignite Memories
Feb 27, 2005

Amethyst posted:

So why do you accept ignorance on the part of paid journalists? It is a poor standard for the media you consume. Do you simply not accept that knowledge of a subject leads to more interesting and meaningful writing on the subject?

I'm arguing that there is a broad enough selection of material to be knowledgeable about that missing out on a specific series, even one as genre-defining as ultima, should not preclude the ability to make intelligent observations about a new work.

Should they have heard of it? Sure, I'll even grant that it's a little silly that they haven't. But it's not worth firing them about. You can still make valid observations about a convention that you're not prepared to trace back to its infancy.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

TurnipFritter posted:

Because sometimes people are assigned jobs that are outside of their sphere of interest or expertise. It happens.


Which interview are you talking about? The only thing I'm seeing linked is this, and it sounds more like the journalists were invited to talk about project e and (Swen?) happened to bring up that Ultima VII was a big source of inspiration during the discussion.

quote:

While talking about Ultima VII, it unfortunately dawned on me again that I’m really not that young anymore. Apparently half the journalists had never played any of the Ultima games, and several of them had never even heard about them.

Not very surprising considering the quality of work these idiots pump out.

TurnipFritter
Apr 21, 2010
10,000 POSTS ON TALKING TIME

Amethyst posted:

Not very surprising considering the quality of work these idiots pump out.

Agreed. That group of unnamed, unidentified journalists sure are a bunch of hacks.

Also, you should really read the next paragraph after he says that.

O__O
Jan 26, 2011

by Cowcaster

TurnipFritter posted:

Agreed. That group of unnamed, unidentified journalists sure are a bunch of hacks.

Also, you should really read the next paragraph after he says that.

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/05/16/eleven-certifiably-insane-video-game-characters

Games "journalism" is a misnomer.

Cityinthesea
Aug 7, 2009
He never specified RPG specific game journalists, just game journalists in general.

I don't actually disagree with you in theory (yes game journalists should probably know about important games, though important is often different from person to person as I would say the original SMT was kinda important), but you just need to chill out, and game journalists don't need to get laid off or whatever just because they don't know a couple important games.

Azraden
Oct 26, 2010

Ooh - a crevice
E: Not worth it. Gamers are terrible.

Azraden fucked around with this message at 08:38 on May 18, 2012

PurplieNurplie
Jan 14, 2009
For anyone playing that Game of Thrones game that came out a few days ago:

How am I supposed to do the weird switch/lever/grid puzzle near the end of chapter 8?

I watched a walkthrough video, but the guy literally just like flips random switches and gets it. What are you actually supposed to do? :iiam:

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010

Azraden posted:

Any thoughts on which I should (or could, I know the SMT games are notoriously long) finish first?

Rush Nier's main plot, twice. You don't need to do sidequests or weapon collection to access the two most important paths through the game, and everything after that is pretty ancillary. It's a short game if you're really pushing through it, and it'll fill the time nicely.

Pierce
Apr 7, 2007

Fool!

TurnipFritter posted:

Because sometimes people are assigned jobs that are outside of their sphere of interest or expertise. It happens.

I agree completely. My wife does ghost-writing for many different websites/publications including a PUA (I love the irony in this). She does the necessary research when writing these and a decent argument can be made that Ultima should have been examined by the journalist. Not necessary but would have added depth and credibility.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post

TurnipFritter posted:

Agreed. That group of unnamed, unidentified journalists sure are a bunch of hacks.

Also, you should really read the next paragraph after he says that.

Name one games journalist that isn't a hack.

Also goddamn, it's incredible how many people in this thread are actually, unironically arguing that it's totally reasonable for reporters not to know things about what they are reporting on. Holy poo poo. It's not impossible to have standards for your reporters, and it's a disgrace when you don't, no matter what you are writing about. I don't expect the New York Times or Vanity Fair here, just some basic understanding of the industry in which you specialize. If you write up an RPG for the first time, maybe go on a forum and ask what the most important RPGs are! And since Larian has made no secret of the fact that they were inspired by Ultima, maybe look into that before you turn up at their studio. "Oh, maybe they didn't know!" - a goddamn idiot. A diligent reporter could have easily found out by reading a couple of interviews with this dude beforehand. You know, if they were capable of even the most simplistic of google-driven research. How are you supposed to ask useful questions if you don't do even the most basic research?

Oh wait these people regurgitate press releases for a living, and you people defend them for it because apparently doing more would be too hard or something. Jesus Christ.

pw pw pw posted:

Quick- without comparing video games to another form of media, explain how playing ultima makes any shred of difference to a review of skyrim.

Look. Look how dumb you are. Of all the games you could have picked you picked the single dumbest choice. I hope that you suddenly and inexplicably get sucked into space while walking out of a Wal-Mart.

pw pw pw posted:

If only there were thousands of other rpg's you might be well-equipped to compare a new title to. It sure sucks for rpg fans that the genre died with ultima 13 years ago.

The genre was born with Ultima you stupid gently caress.

Liesmith fucked around with this message at 13:47 on May 18, 2012

Wendell
May 11, 2003

You people who don't understand what Liesmith, Amethyst, Bongo Bill and the rest are saying are absolutely embarrassing. You are why we can't have intelligent discussion about games.

BadAstronaut
Sep 15, 2004

Heh, wow there is a lot of nerdrage in the last few pages.

As a change of pace, are you guys able to play more than one RPG at a time? I'm asking because I have Dragon Quest VI going on the DS... about 9 hours in and it has slowed down a bit after I defeated Murdaw and now have to find my stone statue or some poo poo and I have Mass Effect 3and Dragon Age both sitting unplayed on my PC, and I am kinda tempted to give those a go. But I usually only mix my gaming across genres to avoid being in two epic fantasy worlds at one time, and that these are all like 30+ hour grand adventures.

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters
The problem isn't specifically Ultima, though that's a great example because it's the western RPG of the genre. The problem here is a pool of knowledge about as shallow as a puddle. It's not about being able to quote lines from Ultima, or talk about the goofy space shuttles and poo poo, it's about having a breadth of knowledge in an industry that relies on your experiences to review games.

This is one of many reasons why gaming journalism is utter poo poo. That's why you get articles like this:


that, even in their utter lack of content, will bring up Kazooie before they bring up the maniacal nihilistic court wizard that blew up the world to gain the power of a god (and succeeded), Kefka.

I am so glad I do this as a hobby because if I looked at this as my career I think I would want to die.

Morpheus fucked around with this message at 14:07 on May 18, 2012

Stelas
Sep 6, 2010

BadAstronaut posted:

As a change of pace, are you guys able to play more than one RPG at a time?

I'll alternate, especially if there are a lot of new releases or if I'm pissed at one of them. I've still got a save at the final dungeon of Tales of Graces, where bad party AI and my own gung-ho stupid cost me an entire ton of healing items. Since then I've poked slowly at farming levels on it while alternating with Yakuza Dead Souls, the Avernum remake, and Diablo 3, and probably will do the same when Dragon's Dogma and Atelier Meruru come out.

TiltedAtWindmills
Sep 4, 2009

Wendell posted:

You people who don't understand what Liesmith, Amethyst, Bongo Bill and the rest are saying are absolutely embarrassing. You are why we can't have intelligent discussion about games.

Actually, people like Amethyst who throw pathetic temper tantrums when people don't agree with them are why we can't have intelligent discussions about games.

Levantine
Feb 14, 2005

GUNDAM!!!

TiltedAtWindmills posted:

Actually, people like Amethyst who throw pathetic temper tantrums when people don't agree with them are why we can't have intelligent discussions about games.

No it's the folks defending cultural ignorance on the part of the paid professionals who should know better. Anyone who defends gaming "journalists" is probably not worth listening to anyway.

DNS
Mar 11, 2009

by Smythe

nessin posted:

And that has what to do with knowing about Ultima? So if a games journalist covers an RPG and knows about Ultima their article will suddenly be better? Sweet, what else can we apply that type of logic to?

What if the article was on Final Fantasy? If they know the history of Final Fantasy it will be crap, but if they know the history of the entire RPG gaming industry, including Ultima, they'll instantly make a better article?

Keep your argument straight, we're not talking about the state of the gaming journalism at large, we're talking about how ridiculous it is to assume that historical knowledge of Ultima is connected to a journalists ability to write a quality article about an RPG.

Oh, man.

Being informed about the sphere in which you are writing is not optional for a good journalist. It's one of the cornerstones of the discipline, a necessary foundation like knowing anatomy and perspective is for an illustrator. The reason why (which I would've considered self-evident until reading these posts) a journalist who knows what they're talking about is always better than one who doesn't, is because when you write from an uninformed perspective you are more likely to be full of poo poo. And more informed writers aren't just able to write something truthful, they will have access to the sort of nuances that less informed writers - the incurious and lazy, to put it sharply - wouldn't be able to notice or articulate.

If it's your intent to argue that there's a baseline somewhere of 'this is the bare minimum someone has to do to get by as a games journalist' and that it doesn't include knowing about Ultima, okay, sure. You can certainly have a career in games journalism even being Not-Knowing-Ultima-Guy. You will also be another mindless shill with no ambition to illuminate or inform except in the most facile way, the guy who only lives for the next junket or free t-shirt and who will almost certainly never write anything of lasting value. There's a ton of those guys already though, so it might be harder to get your foot in the door of the Settling For Less club these days.

Liesmith
Jan 29, 2006

by Y Kant Ozma Post
It's cool how smug that guy is. "Ha, so you're saying that knowing about ultima will automatically make bad writing good? That's stupid. Checkmate, bitch."

You're right, moron quote guy. What you suggest with your incredible misunderstanding of logic is stupid. Knowing about Ultima, or about the history of the genre, industry, or anything else, will not automatically raise the minimum standard of writing. Educated people who cannot communicate their ideas in print will still fail, although at least they have a chance to fail spectacularly.

What knowing your history (by the way the suggestion that you can't know history all the way back to the 1980s is almost too bizarre to even think about) will do is raise the maximum standard of writing. People who are good writers with an intuitive understanding of games but who don't know what they are talking about will suddenly be triple threat writers who have a chace at actual insight. The best of journalistic writers will actually have the opportunity to rise above the press release regurgitators. You dumb motherfucker.

TiltedAtWindmills posted:

Actually, people like Amethyst who throw pathetic temper tantrums when people don't agree with them are why we can't have intelligent discussions about games.

The only thing pathetic here is that when it is revealed that games journalists are just ignorant kids with no pride in their work who function as another arm of the Activision/EA/Whoever PR machine, you get a bunch of goons who say "Good, I didn't want to get actual information from trustworthy sources. I sure love predigested food!"

Liesmith fucked around with this message at 14:48 on May 18, 2012

Pyromancer
Apr 29, 2011

This man must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart

Morpheus posted:

This is one of many reasons why gaming journalism is utter poo poo. That's why you get articles like this:

that, even in their utter lack of content, will bring up Kazooie before they bring up the maniacal nihilistic court wizard that blew up the world to gain the power of a god (and succeeded), Kefka.

I am so glad I do this as a hobby because if I looked at this as my career I think I would want to die.

They're not even trying, could as well pick bunch of random characters and say they're insane :hurr: Over half of those seem perfectly sane if you put them next to real crazies like Sheogorath(Elder Scrolls), Psycho Mantis(MGS), Subject 16(Assassin's Creed), Jeanette&Therese (VTM:Bloodlines), Ignus(Planescape:Torment), Isaac Clarke(Dead Space), Tingle(Zelda series) and tons of others

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters

Pyromancer posted:

They're not even trying, could as well pick bunch of random characters and say they're insane :hurr: Over half of those seem perfectly sane if you put them next to real crazies like Sheogorath(Elder Scrolls), Psycho Mantis(MGS), Subject 16(Assassin's Creed), Jeanette&Therese (VTM:Bloodlines), Ignus(Planescape:Torment), Isaac Clarke(Dead Space), Tingle(Zelda series) and tons of others

It is supremely depressing that someone got paid money to write this.

Edit: Two people! It took two people to write this!

GrandpaPants
Feb 13, 2006


Free to roam the heavens in man's noble quest to investigate the weirdness of the universe!

Morpheus posted:

Edit: Two people! It took two people to write this!

Two people write the _____ Movie franchise and its derivatives. Making something terrible takes a lot of coordination between a set of unique incompetencies.

Jesto
Dec 22, 2004

Balls.
Nevermind.

Jesto fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Oct 1, 2014

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters

Jesto posted:

I'm not sure if this is a joke post, but I just skimmed the list and it doesn't seem like they're listing characters who are legitimately written to be insane. They're picking a bunch of characters who are written to be sane or normal and observing the behavior they exhibit in their games that could have them perceived to be crazy.

It's pretty much just a humor / filler article from what I can see. I mean, Mario is right beneath Kazooie, it's pretty hard to take the article seriously.

Not a joke post. I see what you're saying, and okay, I get what they're trying to do, but it's still a Kotaku-level of effort. They might as well have said "here's a cake with a Mario face!" Stuff like this severely damages the image of the industry that many others are trying to repair.

joff_b
Aug 5, 2011
It's perfectly defensible for games journalists not to know about old games like Ultima in this day and age.

It's not like you can look things up on Wikipedia or read Hardcore Gaming 101, or download roms for free and emulate them, or buy games on virtual console/gog.com-like services. It's not like there are reams of fansites, articles, blogs and magazines about them. It's not like it's easier than it has ever been in the history of gaming to get information about or access to games.

Pyromancer
Apr 29, 2011

This man must look upon the fire, smell of it, warm his hands by it, stare into its heart

Jesto posted:

I'm not sure if this is a joke post, but I just skimmed the list and it doesn't seem like they're listing characters who are legitimately written to be insane. They're picking a bunch of characters who are written to be sane or normal and observing the behavior they exhibit in their games that could have them perceived to be crazy.

It's pretty much just a humor / filler article from what I can see. I mean, Mario is right beneath Kazooie, it's pretty hard to take the article seriously.

Nope, can't even save that article like that, at least Sander Cohen and Harman Smith on that list are pretty obviously written to be insane.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

Well, let's not be mean-spirited about it.

I find playing multiple RPGs at a time is easier if I've got one that's handheld and one that's not. More than that and the games have to take special effort to remind me of what I was doing last time. The more open-ended ones make this especially difficult, unless they've got a very good quest journal; on the other hand, even the extremely linear ones can make it easy for you to forget your priorities in their few more open parts.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Morpheus
Apr 18, 2008

My favourite little monsters

Bongo Bill posted:

Well, let's not be mean-spirited about it.

I find playing multiple RPGs at a time is easier if I've got one that's handheld and one that's not. More than that and the games have to take special effort to remind me of what I was doing last time. The more open-ended ones make this especially difficult, unless they've got a very good quest journal; on the other hand, even the extremely linear ones can make it easy for you to forget your priorities in their few more open parts.

I can play multiple RPGs at once, but I often don't want to; I get burnt out on the formula pretty quick, even if the RPG has different mechanics. Even then, I rarely play more than one game per system at a time anyway.

Gotta say, over the past few years by gaming ADD has improved by leaps and bounds. Time was I'd be playing a different game every couple days.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply