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Sheen Sheen posted:The NCR prior to F: NV is much more likeable than what they ended up becoming in New Vegas. In New Vegas, they're mostly an expansionist empire that doesn't have the people of the Mojave's best interests in mind, and the game points out that the NCR kinda de-evolved into what it is now, which is a mirror of the pre-war US (at least in regards to foreign policy). I seem to remember that the NCR of Fallout 2 (and the end of Fallout 1) was, as a whole, not so much concerned about gaining power, but more concerned with protecting their citizens from the horrors of a post-apocalyptic world (poverty/starvation, radiation, disease, horrifying mutants/monsters, bloodthirsty and cannibalistic (and possibly rapey) raiders, etc.). Basically, the NCR was a noble organization whose founding ideals were pushed to the wayside after it was hijacked by the interests of big business and the military-industrial complex. I guess that's why I always have a soft spot for the NCR--maybe they just need a leader who can stand up to the wealthy landowners and warhawks and return the NCR to it's original mission. Sure, that's probably extremely naive, but I think it's a better option than the Legion or House. The NCR was kind of expansionist in Fallout 2 though, in the cases of hiring raiders to harass Vault City into annexation, and taking over Vault 15 from the Khans (who were pretty big jerks themselves). The latter area does do pretty well under the NCR though in that very same game. NCR has a lot of internal pressures in New Vegas that are pushing them out into the Mojave, that aren't just "manifest destiny" Imperialism. A number of characters (Dr. Hildern, the Arms Merchant at the 188) both mention that the NCR is beginning to experience something of a population crisis, as there aren't enough jobs/land in NCR-proper for the people there. This is also the big reason for why there are so many prospectors strip-searching the Mojave. If the NCR is kept out of the Mojave, those population problems won't go away, and would likely lead to tensions elsewhere. ... That said the NCR is still engaged in a lot of underhanded moves to secure their position. I only recently started reading all the "private" terminals around the Wasteland, but seeing the "Good" Ambassador Crocker's private messages about getting more citizens out into the Mojave to outvote the locals in "future plebiscites" was interesting.
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May 24, 2012 00:57
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First of all, I think its a mistake to refer to the NCR as having a "mission", noble or otherwise. It's a government concerned with preserving and enhancing its power. It's bound, to some extent, by principles that are admirable, but those principles often run afoul of reality. Second of all, I think its difficult to judge the efficacy of the NCR based on the Mojave Wasteland. Many argue that we should evaluate how Caesar's Legion administers it core territory to determine whether its a viable or desirable power-doesn't the same apply principle apply to the NCR? The area we see in the game is a frontier area for both parties. Without seeing The Den or the NCR capital I don't really think we can speak to how life for the average NCR citizen really is.
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May 24, 2012 01:33
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On that note there are one or two pieces of evidence that point to things not being too rosy back on the west coast. The most interesting example I can think of is Caesar claiming that raiders killed his father when he was a child. IIRC he says that this happened while his family was living in the Boneyard, which isn't only one of the oldest parts of the NCR, but also where they print their currency. By the time we get to New Vegas that's some decades in the past, but with military resources being funnelled to the Mojave I can't imagine that the situation has improved all that much.Crazy Joe Wilson posted:... That said the NCR is still engaged in a lot of underhanded moves to secure their position. I only recently started reading all the "private" terminals around the Wasteland, but seeing the "Good" Ambassador Crocker's private messages about getting more citizens out into the Mojave to outvote the locals in "future plebiscites" was interesting. Ooh, I've never looked at his terminal myself but this sounds really interesting! Especially since I had always regarded Crocker in something of a positive light as the game contrasts him against the awful Colonel Moore. Veeta fucked around with this message at 01:45 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 01:43
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Veeta posted:On that note there are one or two pieces of evidence that point to things not being too rosy back on the west coast. The most interesting example I can think of is Caesar claiming that raiders killed his father when he was a child. IIRC he says that this happened while his family was living in the Boneyard, which isn't only one of the oldest parts of the NCR, but also where they print their currency. By the time we get to New Vegas that's some decades in the past, but with military resources being funnelled to the Mojave I can't imagine that the situation has improved all that much. By that logic, Washington DC/ LA/ NYC should all be murder free. "Raiders" has probably just become a general term for anyone who attacks others to get their stuff, like muggers.
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May 24, 2012 02:01
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Wolfsheim posted:Oh, didn't you know? It was the aliens from Mothership Zeta I like to think that at Obsidian HQ they said as many nasty things about the concept of that DLC as we did. I'm operating under the assumption that if I don't install it, it's not canon. 
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May 24, 2012 02:16
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Veeta posted:Ooh, I've never looked at his terminal myself but this sounds really interesting! Especially since I had always regarded Crocker in something of a positive light as the game contrasts him against the awful Colonel Moore. The contrast is more between Hsu and Moore, really. Crocker's the one who suggests killing Pacer after all.
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May 24, 2012 02:34
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Hsu wants the job done right, Crocker just wants the job done, and Colonel Moore wants to get the non-NCR body count as high as it can possibly go.
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May 24, 2012 02:52
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Doesn't Ceasar talk about how the NCR has been in decline now that Tandi is no longer President? To be honest, the most stable growing society in New Vegas is the tribals from Honest Hearts. With the White Legs dealt with, Daniel and Joshua in advisory roles, they've got a good chance of buliding something. Even if they had to evacuate Zion, the White Legs will starve to death after a year or two, leaving the valley free to be reclaimed. The Brotherhood might have nice armour, but aside from Veronica, they're pretty much awful, selfish hoarders - they're pretty far removed from the Captial Wasteland Chapter. House has a point there, even of wiping them out is a bit drastic. House isn't that bad - it's implied that he becomes quite fond of the Courier. He made a friend at least. 
OldMemes fucked around with this message at 03:22 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 03:19
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It's not so much that House is a bad guy, though by setting himself up as eternal autocrat humanity might find itself in trouble in the future and there'd be no way to depose him once he's entrenched. No the big problem with House is he is taking the Enclave route. He wants to industrialize Vegas as quickly as possible and get into space to ditch Earth for a new planet with fresh resources. Only those with money and power will go, and he'll abandon the rest just like he's abandoned Freeside. The NCR has been co-opted by big business and that's the biggest source of its internal problems. But that's not insurmountable. The best ending for Cass's story proves that the Van Graffs and the Crimson Caravan can be taken out diplomatically, and the others can be too. The brahmin barons are going to lose power one way or another, if not served to cannibals and framed for murder than popular uprising by uprooted herders and a landless population that has quit sending their sons off to join the war once its over and will face the local frustration at its source. The NCR's biggest similarity to the old world governments isn't being an inefficient democracy (if anything the old US has subverted freedom completely and locked the world in a perpetual 1950s jingoistic nightmare) but its resource battle. It parallels the monstrosities of the past trying to solve the same problem all the other factions are facing, but want to maintain personal freedom or not abandon the planet like the others. But while they try to figure out how to do that, they've got a population time bomb. So they'll annex the Mojave like the US annexed Canada. The NCR has quit just scavenging and started manufacturing, quit surviving and started thriving. But as Hildern and others point out, the resources they have aren't enough to sustain them. Lake Mead has a huge reservoir of clean water that wasn't used until the NCR got to it, and Hoover Dam is an invaluable clean energy source to power cities back west. Their farms need water and their industries need power. It's the obvious move for them when most of their other options are irradiated deserts without those benefits. They have to solve humanity's biggest problem that the Old World never did, and the real world hasn't either. They need to find equilibrium with the planet. The Mojave gives them more time. The biggest critique about the NCR is 'how much time?' is enough for them to do it. Too bad the Followers can't be put in charge, though their current methods might be just another cause of an unsustainable population growth by bringing agriculture and medicine.
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May 24, 2012 04:05
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Aww poo poo, I did something that broke Boone's recruitment quest and he absolutely refuses to shoot that bitch who sold his wife. drat it Boone, I've been walking her out in front of the drat dinosaur about a dozen times, shoot her already!
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May 24, 2012 04:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Aww poo poo, I did something that broke Boone's recruitment quest and he absolutely refuses to shoot that bitch who sold his wife. drat it Boone, I've been walking her out in front of the drat dinosaur about a dozen times, shoot her already! It's been a long time since I did the quest, but from memory aren't you supposed to wear something/signal him somehow to give him the cue to shoot? Or are you doing that and it's just not triggering?
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May 24, 2012 05:28
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You wear his beret and lead the target out in front of the dino, yeah.
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May 24, 2012 05:42
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Yeah, I'm wearing the poo poo out of the drat beret but he still won't shoot.
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May 24, 2012 05:44
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Is it nighttime?
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May 24, 2012 05:51
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Yeah, I'm wearing the poo poo out of the drat beret but he still won't shoot. How far away from the Dino are you taking her? If you're standing right outside the fence it won't work. Boone's trying to make it look like an accidental shooting. Try taking her over to the bridge past the Dino. Also, make sure it's at night when Boone is on his shift.
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May 24, 2012 05:55
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thrakkorzog posted:How far away from the Dino are you taking her? If you're standing right outside the fence it won't work. Boone's trying to make it look like an accidental shooting. Try taking her over to the bridge past the Dino. Also, make sure it's at night when Boone is on his shift. Well that explains it, she keeps wandering into the stupid rocks on the near side of the bridge and turning around. drat it.
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May 24, 2012 05:56
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Well that explains it, she keeps wandering into the stupid rocks on the near side of the bridge and turning around. drat it. What time of day is it when she's doing that? If it's early enough in the morning/late enough at night, her AI might have just kicked in to 'Back to work, going to the front desk,' mode.
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May 24, 2012 06:13
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Dush posted:The contrast is more between Hsu and Moore, really. Crocker's the one who suggests killing Pacer after all. To be fair, Pacer probably deserves it.
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May 24, 2012 06:14
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OldMemes posted:House isn't that bad - it's implied that he becomes quite fond of the Courier. He made a friend at least. In one of the endings it says flat out that he's very proud of you.
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May 24, 2012 06:27
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Fintilgin posted:I like to think that at Obsidian HQ they said as many nasty things about the concept of that DLC as we did. True story: Mothership Zeta was my breaking point. I finished it, and about five minutes later I turned off the game and never went back. I tried starting a new game months later, got ten minutes in, shut it off. Broken Box posted:It's not so much that House is a bad guy, though by setting himself up as eternal autocrat humanity might find itself in trouble in the future and there'd be no way to depose him once he's entrenched. No the big problem with House is he is taking the Enclave route. He wants to industrialize Vegas as quickly as possible and get into space to ditch Earth for a new planet with fresh resources. Only those with money and power will go, and he'll abandon the rest just like he's abandoned Freeside. But House tells you, point blank, that he's not interested in saving everyone, just humanity itself. Anyone who wants to come with just has to pay their way in (or generally be useful in some way). For everyone else; there's the rest of the Wasteland, have at it. And really, why should he be about helping everyone? If he did that he'd stretch himself too thin just like the NCR, and if he coerced them into going along with his grand vision, he'd be as bad as the Legion. All he's doing is protecting the city he saved from nuclear destruction then rebuilt from ruins. Every other faction's sole purpose is to kill him and steal his property (including Yes Man). He's only 'ruthless' because people are constantly trying to assassinate him and steal his poo poo and he has to impose his will to, uh, not get murdered, basically. His only failings are (1)trusting Benny to not be an idiot and double-cross him for literally no reason (2)trusting the Courier to do the same if the Courier ends up betraying him, and (3)being kind of a condescending dick. But when you're an immortal autocrat who is literally staving off multiple armies at once by playing them off each other while stealthily setting yourself up as the eternal ruler of Vegas all while never leaving your coma bed, you're pretty much allowed to be a condescending dick. Whatever weird sex poo poo he does with that one robot is pretty hosed up, though. Wolfsheim fucked around with this message at 06:34 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 06:30
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Wolfsheim posted:Whatever weird sex poo poo he does with that one robot is pretty hosed up, though. "Yeah baby, overclock my external bus hnnngh  "Like seriously. Out of all of the things in the wasteland you take fault at, It's that the guy who is more machine than man gets robo slap and tickle? What's it to you exactly?
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May 24, 2012 06:59
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Xerxes17 posted:"Yeah baby, overclock my external bus hnnngh Well it's not like he can even leave his pod or whatever, so its gotta be some weird chatroom sexual roleplay thing. Which is less creepy disgusting and more creepy sad 
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May 24, 2012 07:01
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OldMemes posted:That said, Ulysses's plan is pretty flawed and morally repunant too - wipe out several cultures and societies, killing loads of people, just because you don't want to subscribe to the existing ideologies? Was the divide really that special, so much so that he couldn't find a new bunch of like minded people to form a faction with? Yes, Hopeville was able to turn what was an army base into something like a small independent town. An military version of New Vegas so to speak. By completing the Independent ending you have successfully created another Hopeville. A shame you couldn't bring Arcade along to Big MT so he can introduce a lot useful fun stuff to Followers and Freeside citizen "Here we have Salient Green, a universal green plant solvent that is much more miraculous than Agave Fruit as it can be used to produce huge quantities of food and healing materials. Note that it is not made from people like Vault 22 and thus safe for consumption. Of course, lets just hope none of the Big MT scientists is watching us and plans on turning us into their personal lab rat. Between you and me, being used like ants under a magnifying glass is not what I had in mind when I brought samples." vyelkin posted:The only thing I could really fault the DLC for was not letting me resolve the moral conflict with Daniel properly. Especially since I had hunted down all the logs, I really, really wanted an option to tell him "First of all, the White Legs have already wiped out New Canaan, and then followed you here. There is no reason they won't follow you again, and again, and again, unless you make a stand. And if you're going to make a stand, there's no better place than here, where you have Joshua Graham and the Courier on your side, in Zion, where the Sorrows have lived for decades, a place that was protected and kept safe by the Survivalist and is seen as a holy place. This place has abundant food, beautiful scenery, and is all-around probably a great place to live compared to the shithole that is much of the Wasteland. More importantly, it's the Sorrows' home and they deserve to be allowed to keep it. Sometimes you have to stand and fight for what's right, and what's right is not letting the White Legs take whatever they please." But instead I was left without any option to justify myself, and instead had to just tell him "I think the other guy's right" and leave it at that. He doesn't want to clean up the mess Graham started, even though Graham has honestly admitted to his guilt and is part of the Mormons again and completely severing all ties with the Legion (I was expecting a part of him to go "I am going create a new Legion in my image, one that will leave Sallow and his tribals quaking in fear, a reminder of who created the army to conquer in the first place"). Graham's damage was done, he has created an army of tribals bent on nothing short of everyone enslaved or slaughtered and he was the reason why they were chased. If the Sorrows were chased by another tribe not because of Caesar's orders, Daniel may have considered fighting. Seeing them as primitive prospectors who have caused a lot of misery. But with the White Legs, it was Graham's fault and he was not going to be cleaning the mess for him. gyrobot fucked around with this message at 07:13 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 07:04
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Wolfsheim posted:His only failings are (1)trusting Benny to not be an idiot and double-cross him for literally no reason Greed is a reason. Not a really good reason, but still a reason.
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May 24, 2012 08:34
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OldMemes posted:Doesn't Ceasar talk about how the NCR has been in decline now that Tandi is no longer President? He does. He also points out that NCR's democracy is more or less a sham, given that Tandi was its president for 50 years (look for examples of that in the real world and you get Hosni Mubarak). But now that she's gone and there are elections whose outcome is actually uncertain, the NCR hasn't been doing great. I think Caesar said that showed the people of the NCR weren't ready for actual democracy and were just going through the motions without really understanding what it all meant. It's a good point, even though I'm not one of those Legion lovers.  It's interesting to think of NCR as just another tribe except their leader took it up themselves to bring civilisation back to the wasteland as a successor of sorts to the USA. So Shady Sands adopted a fancier name, its village chief came to be called the "President" and then everyone else had to play along because the NCR had the strongest army. It's a clever way to reflect on assumptions about "civilisation" and "barbarians".
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May 24, 2012 08:54
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Kassad posted:He does. He also points out that NCR's democracy is more or less a sham, given that Tandi was its president for 50 years Her Father was president before that until he disappeared into the wastes looking for vault 13. Ceasar does have a point there. When one family's running the place for sixty years straight, that's a democracy in name only.
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May 24, 2012 09:18
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To be fair, I don't think Tandi hung on to power for as long as she did because she enjoyed it. For one, her presence made people more inclined to join the NCR, because she was pretty much universally admired and people wanted to follow her. But also, she saw the people who were gaining support, and she was going to oppose them as long as she could. Even back in Fallout 2, you can kind of see where not everyone in NCR is on her level. If you kill Weston and Carlson, a bunch of hard-line militants use that to get Tandi out of office, and they get the Enclave to join their army. Caesar liked to frame NCR up as a monarchy, but it was really built around a Cult of Personality more than any kind of dynastic succession.
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May 24, 2012 09:44
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Broken Box posted:Too bad the Followers can't be put in charge, though their current methods might be just another cause of an unsustainable population growth by bringing agriculture and medicine. Well, there is one former Follower who's set himself up as a political leader. I hear he's done quite well for himself!  Xerxes17 posted:By that logic, Washington DC/ LA/ NYC should all be murder free. In the context that he uses it, it pretty clearly means a roaming gang of armed thugs. Something a lot worse than mere muggers.
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May 24, 2012 09:57
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There is an ending slide where the Followers join up with the Khans and create a new civilization in the northwest, so they CAN be nudged into being leaders of a sort.
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May 24, 2012 14:04
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Just found out the wife's taking me to Vegas for my 30th birthday. We go every year, but we almost never leave the hotels since we generally go in August. I want to visit some New Vegas locations. Goodsprings is obvious as it's only 40 minutes away, but that does mean we'll have to rent a car. Are there any other suggestions? Obviously I've already been to the airport.
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May 24, 2012 16:49
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LividLiquid posted:Just found out the wife's taking me to Vegas for my 30th birthday. We go every year, but we almost never leave the hotels since we generally go in August. I want to visit some New Vegas locations. Goodsprings is obvious as it's only 40 minutes away, but that does mean we'll have to rent a car. Are there any other suggestions? Obviously I've already been to the airport. Buy a souvenir snowglobe at Hoover Dam?
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May 24, 2012 17:10
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gyrobot posted:(I was expecting a part of him to go "I am going create a new Legion in my image, one that will leave Sallow and his tribals quaking in fear, a reminder of who created the army to conquer in the first place"). This is basically what he does in one of the endings: With the White Legs crushed, Joshua Graham led the Sorrows and Dead Horses in tearing apart and burning the corpses of their enemies. He set about training his army in the "Way of the Canaanite," and soon the New Canaanites and tribes of Zion were feared well into the Mojave. Legends of the Burned Man grew even more depraved, and terrifying. He's still a legionnaire at heart, and you have to show him compassion by sparing Salt-upon-wounds or giving him a fair fight for him to not fall back into his old ways.
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May 24, 2012 17:26
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ClearAirTurbulence posted:There is an ending slide where the Followers join up with the Khans and create a new civilization in the northwest, so they CAN be nudged into being leaders of a sort. Khans create a new civilization with Follower following.
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May 24, 2012 17:49
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Stroth posted:Greed is a reason. Not a really good reason, but still a reason. Its kind of funny, if Benny wasn't so stupidly overambitious, he would have secured his place as House's right-hand man and the de facto leader of Vegas (since House purposefully stays behind the scenes) and the Courier would still just be some dude delivering packages (with the nutjob Ulysses still stalking him). Granted, as we see at the Fort, Benny's not totally capable of doing what needs to be done (activating the Securitron Army, and presumably later he'd gently caress up having to steal Hoover Dam's power out from under the NCR) so it's probably all for the best.
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May 24, 2012 18:03
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The problem with the Followers that they often refuse to budge from their ideals, even when compromise would produce the best result for everyone. For example, when the owners of the Atomic Wrangler want to work with the Followers, and you basically have to browbeat them into realising that the excess ethanol will help them,, even if the Garrets are kinda sleazy. The Followers have no long term plans for growth - contrast that to the Mormons and thier relationship with the tribals, Daniel and Graham are really trying to bulid something. As for House, compared to say, President Eden, he's a pretty benevolent figure. He doesn't even use Mr. New Vegas to broadcast propoganda about himself. OldMemes fucked around with this message at 18:10 on May 24, 2012 |
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May 24, 2012 18:07
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I'd be kind of worried about House as a long-term leader for a couple reasons. The biggest though is that if you look at the area he actually controls there's a decent amount of hosed up stuff and human misery. The only real law is that you don't gently caress with House, and he can be incredibly vindictive in enforcing that. Look at what happens to the Kings for the relatively minor slight of not beating up NCR Squatters anymore. I'm also skeptical of his long term economic success because his economy is basically parasitic. He just drains capital out of the NCR, which is why he doesn't want to alienate them too much, but the NCR's economy being shaky, on the verge of depression, etc is a point that gets hammered away at a lot.
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May 24, 2012 18:30
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Wolfsheim posted:True story: Mothership Zeta was my breaking point. I finished it, and about five minutes later I turned off the game and never went back. I tried starting a new game months later, got ten minutes in, shut it off. They could have just put the art assets in a new esm and then released it all to the public and said "make up a story". The result would have been preferable.
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May 24, 2012 18:49
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fennesz posted:Yeah I had to scavenge a lot of tech out of the ghoul infested area to the north and sell off all of my weapons, ammo and meds (I don't use Stimpaks) but I made it work. The ironsights are misaligned but they're pretty easy to get used to after a while. Speaking of this, is there a mod that fixes the misaligned iron sights?
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May 24, 2012 18:51
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DemonNick posted:I'd be kind of worried about House as a long-term leader for a couple reasons. The biggest though is that if you look at the area he actually controls there's a decent amount of hosed up stuff and human misery. The only real law is that you don't gently caress with House, and he can be incredibly vindictive in enforcing that. Look at what happens to the Kings for the relatively minor slight of not beating up NCR Squatters anymore. Well, I think after he actually has his massive Securitron army in place, the plan is to start developing New Vegas industrially. He talks about expansion and even rebuilding the monorail if it blows up. He did, in just a few years, renovate the entire city with what limited resources he had to make it ready for the NCR's arrival. Now that he has a huge army, more resources and the entirety of the Hoover Dam's power supply behind him, why would he stop moving forward?
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May 24, 2012 19:03
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3 Tablets Daily posted:Finally beat the main quest. Found the final battle a bit underwhelming with a full suit of power armor and an automatic grenade launcher. I did enjoy annihilating Caesar's Legion and the NCR though. Well, it was flat out goofy to kill Lanius with stealth, as it generally is if it takes more than one hit (it took two)
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May 24, 2012 19:31
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