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plus the samurai spirit those orientals have would never allow them to live with the shame of taking a dive
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Jun 4, 2012 18:00
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I'm pretty sure I remember pride paying sakuraba to take a dive or two. I don't remember against who, though. It would make more sense to pay saku to take a dive rather than some undersized nobody.
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Jun 4, 2012 18:13
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MycroftXXX posted:I'm pretty sure I remember pride paying sakuraba to take a dive or two. I don't remember against who, though. It would make more sense to pay saku to take a dive rather than some undersized nobody. why would they want one of their biggest stars to lose what we know happened in pride was already bad, why go into conspiracy theory mode Bundt Cake fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 18:15
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MycroftXXX posted:I'm pretty sure I remember pride paying sakuraba to take a dive or two. I don't remember against who, though. It would make more sense to pay saku to take a dive rather than some undersized nobody. Iirc Rampage claimed that he was offered money to take a dive against sakuraba but he refused and lost legitimately. EDIT: Here's the article (dated June 2007) http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2007/06/12/did-pride-ask-rampage-to-take-a-dive/ Rampage posted:“I’m never the type of fighter that would lose for money,” Jackson said. “I don’t do that. But they told me, ‘If you win this fight, you get $10,000.’ But they told me — these are like the two people from PRIDE who got fired recently, I don’t know if the president of PRIDE knew about it — but they told me themselves: ‘If you lose by knockout or submission and you don’t tap, you get $12,000.’ The SituAsian fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jun 4, 2012 |
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Jun 4, 2012 18:29
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Bundt Cake posted:why would they want one of their biggest stars to lose I get what you're saying and I have no idea why they would want sakuraba to lose but i don't think its conspiracy theory mode to think a pro wrestler in a hosed up org would take a dive. I mean, wasn't Takada v Coleman a work? I understand that is a completely different situation, with Takada being an infinitely worse fighter but otherwise popular pro wrestler, but it means the they are not above paying fighters for a dive in general which at least makes it somewhat plausible.
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Jun 4, 2012 19:50
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MycroftXXX posted:I get what you're saying and I have no idea why they would want sakuraba to lose but i don't think its conspiracy theory mode to think a pro wrestler in a hosed up org would take a dive. I mean, wasn't Takada v Coleman a work? I understand that is a completely different situation, with Takada being an infinitely worse fighter but otherwise popular pro wrestler, but it means the they are not above paying fighters for a dive in general which at least makes it somewhat plausible. They blatantly screwed Mezger out of an obvious win in front of God and Everybody to protect Sakuraba. Even if they paid fighters a bonus if they lost violently, according to Quinton Rampage Jackson, its not as bad as that
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Jun 4, 2012 19:54
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Watch Silva/Oyama again. PRIDE didn't need guys to do worked finishes when the ref could just call the match as soon as he had an excuse. And is it really hard to believe that fighters whose total martial arts experience consisted of wearing panties and learning the crossface chickenwing from a guy who knew a guy who knew Karl Gotch would get ground into sausage by dudes who could actually fight?
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Jun 4, 2012 21:23
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MycroftXXX posted:I'm pretty sure I remember pride paying sakuraba to take a dive or two. I don't remember against who, though. It would make more sense to pay saku to take a dive rather than some undersized nobody. Let's pretend this isn't completely wrong for a moment, which of Sakuraba's PRIDE losses would you pinpoint as dives?
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Jun 4, 2012 22:03
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definitely the arona fight
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Jun 4, 2012 22:06
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he dove into melvin's foot
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Jun 5, 2012 01:35
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Listened to the Sonnen thing. That's a fair reflection of what happened allegedly in Pancrase. So it's possible that what he talks about did happen. And why guys like Cro-Cop? Monster gaijin draw money.
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Jun 5, 2012 08:57
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Steve Glutenberg posted:Let's pretend this isn't completely wrong for a moment, which of Sakuraba's PRIDE losses would you pinpoint as dives? None
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Jun 5, 2012 17:14
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I certainly believe there were works in Pride, you don't hear that many rumors about a topic unless there is at least a grain of truth. Come on, this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oyt4Ak2tDg fought in pride. Alberto Del Rio, who Chael alleges took a dive against cro cop (which I beleive since Chael is buddies with a bunch of wrestlers and it hasn't been refuted). As for people saying why would they help out non-japanese fighters? Have you thought that it is possible that non-japanese fighters could become popular in japan (shocking! like how brazilian fighters have plenty of fans in the US). Even if they were not keen on helping foreigners, if a foreigner gained a following and a string of Ws I could see pride putting in fixes to keep the legend alive. This goes into why feed guys to guys who are winning? Well why not build the legend? Build someone up as a monster (the WWE does this) so you can hype the fights they have with other big names while protecting them from possible Ls from lesser known fighters. e-Just to clear things up, I don't believe dives were rampant in Pride, but I believe there is some truth in what Chael and others have spoke on (remember Chael said dives werent dives per se, but sometimes something like dropping your guard on purpose against a striker to get deliberately knocked out, not pro wrestling style fake knocked out). Japanese sports has fallen prey many times to cheating scandals. Look at the Freakonomics video on cheating in Sumo I think it explains the phenomenon quite well, as well as, possibly what happened in pride. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qKP9v-76w4 (A little bit of the beginning of this piece is in the part2 video before it). Quodio Stotes fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Jun 5, 2012 |
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Jun 5, 2012 22:39
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Some fights like Coleman/Takada were obviously choreographed dives, but a lot of the time it was just fighters matched up against other fighters they had no possible chance of beating. Alberto Del Rio/Dos Caras is a good example, him fighting Cro Cop was like if the Green Bay Packers played against a High School team, you wouldn't say the high school team took a dive if they lost 70 to 0 any more than Del Rio took a dive by getting his head caved in by an aggressive trained head kicker. Most of them had it worked out that they got the same pay win or lose, aka "The Tito Ortiz"
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Jun 5, 2012 23:21
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While some dives/works did happen, most of the time they probably don't need it. In Japanese MMA they'll only inform one fighter of who they will be fighting so they can adequately prepare, while the guy they are fighting won't know until a few weeks before the fight. I think recently Aoki/McCullogh was booked this way Also there's no need for dives when you have a lovely and/or undersized fighter fighting Wanderlei Silva. 1st AD fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Jun 5, 2012 |
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Jun 5, 2012 23:26
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Why the gently caress would the Japanese even bother to have Dos Caras take a dive against Mirko Crocop?
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Jun 5, 2012 23:29
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The coolest part of Crocop vs Dos Caras Jr is that in a pre-fight interview somebody asked him if he was going to wear a mask and he was like "of course not, I wouldn't be able to see properly"
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Jun 5, 2012 23:53
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Steve Glutenberg posted:The coolest part of Crocop vs Dos Caras Jr is that in a pre-fight interview somebody asked him if he was going to wear a mask and he was like "of course not, I wouldn't be able to see properly" Clearly the explanation for all this was that after Bas and the American cameras left the locker room, Satoru Sayama burst in holding a katana to Mil Mascaras' windpipe. e: For shits and giggles, here is Minowaman gambling that his gameplan of "just like Sakuraba, except much much worse" will be what's needed to dethrone prime Wandy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9jLNOz6i-E Julio Cesar Fatass fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jun 6, 2012 |
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Jun 6, 2012 00:21
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This one is pretty funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1p54f6Urm8
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Jun 6, 2012 03:41
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Fentry posted:like if the Green Bay Packers played against a High School team, you wouldn't say the high school team took a dive if they lost 70 to 0 You have no idea how happy it makes me that this is a comparison someone is making in the year of our lord 2012.
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Jun 6, 2012 18:21
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Was Arlovski's Affliction deal the most hideous in MMA history, or have there been worse?
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Jun 7, 2012 15:10
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LordPants posted:Was Arlovski's Affliction deal the most hideous in MMA history, or have there been worse? Are you referring to when Affliction tried to be a promotion?
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Jun 7, 2012 15:57
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LordPants posted:Was Arlovski's Affliction deal the most hideous in MMA history, or have there been worse? Do you mean in terms of paycheck size versus talent? Because Arlovski is a rank amateur compared to Bob Sapp.
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Jun 7, 2012 16:14
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James Toney getting paid 500k was pretty shameful
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Jun 7, 2012 16:51
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How much of that did Toney keep?
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Jun 7, 2012 17:07
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I love Pitbull as much as the next guy. Especially before he cut his hair. Especially with that awesome mouth-guard. But that deal was just crazy. At the time it was the biggest single fight guarantee. But it's just crazy considering he never really drew much as champ. Now obviously, he wasn't around during the boom, but still. 1.5 Million?  edit: Deadly serious. They should sign Pitbull and put him up against Mir. That fight is like seven years in the making. They marketed a fight based on Silva "getting his win back" over Okami. This isn't that much of a stretch by comparison. algebra testes fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jun 7, 2012 |
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Jun 7, 2012 17:20
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Arlovski can't string together wins against quality opponents, there's no way he's getting scheduled against Mir unless 1/3 of the roster is injured and they need a late replacement.
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Jun 7, 2012 17:28
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origami posted:How much of that did Toney keep? Any is too much
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Jun 7, 2012 17:46
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at this point I think both mir and andrei would get rocked during the pre fight touching of the gloves.
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Jun 7, 2012 19:27
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With it being known that there were early Pancrase fights that were worked, were there any fights in Pride that were works or suspected of being as such? While I see dives are discussed above, I mean were there any fights where both parties knew in advance who was coming out on top? I'd be kinda surprised if CroCop knew guys were throwing fights for him. STING 64 fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Jun 8, 2012 |
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Jun 8, 2012 00:45
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BAN DICKEYE posted:With it being known that there were early Pancrase fights that were worked, were there any fights in Pride that were works or suspected of being as such? Coleman/Takada was a work and Coleman pretty much admitted as such. Most of the time, as has been already mentioned, the matches weren't worked in the sense of "You are going to lose", but in the sense of "You're getting paid the same where you lose or win, and by the way you're a 180 lb pro wrestler and you're fighting Crocop on short notice."
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Jun 8, 2012 01:12
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Something I heard recently was a scenario where they would tell one guy that it was a work and pay him a little more, but the other guy would have no idea. Like if I were facing Crocop, and I knew it was a work, they would tell me not to hit him too hard, and the first time he threw something hard, I should go down and stay down, so for all he knew, it was real. Any idea how frequently something like that was?
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Jun 8, 2012 03:47
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CVagts posted:Something I heard recently was a scenario where they would tell one guy that it was a work and pay him a little more, but the other guy would have no idea. Like if I were facing Crocop, and I knew it was a work, they would tell me not to hit him too hard, and the first time he threw something hard, I should go down and stay down, so for all he knew, it was real. Any idea how frequently something like that was? That sounds much more manageable and likely than a guy going down and staying down because he's never been in a real fight before and the hardest hitter in the promotion just broke his brain in half with a roundhouse kick. e: Seriously, just watch some of those old events. Careers were ending left and right because pro wrestling isn't a real martial art and acting like it is will get you killed when Igor Vovchanchyn is standing in front of you. Julio Cesar Fatass fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Jun 8, 2012 |
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Jun 8, 2012 04:24
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Watch your tongue. On the whole, pro wrestlers and their families have a decent k/d ratio.
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Jun 8, 2012 04:55
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Would it really be necessary to pay pro wrestlers to not try to beat Crocop? Was Crocop seriously that bad in the pride era? That is not a rhetorical question, I'm relatively new to this sport and don't know beans about what fighters were like during Pride. Or does Crocop just keep coming up in these examples as a generic stand in name for some reason?
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Jun 8, 2012 06:17
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edit: n/m
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Jun 8, 2012 06:24
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Best Friends posted:Would it really be necessary to pay pro wrestlers to not try to beat Crocop? Was Crocop seriously that bad in the pride era? That is not a rhetorical question, I'm relatively new to this sport and don't know beans about what fighters were like during Pride. Or does Crocop just keep coming up in these examples as a generic stand in name for some reason? It wasn't and in some cases (Yuji Nagata) it ran counter to the interests of his promoters for him to take a dive. They wanted him to look somewhat legitimate against PRIDE fighters and ended up ruining his drawing ability for years.
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Jun 8, 2012 06:37
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Best Friends posted:Would it really be necessary to pay pro wrestlers to not try to beat Crocop? Was Crocop seriously that bad in the pride era? That is not a rhetorical question, I'm relatively new to this sport and don't know beans about what fighters were like during Pride. Or does Crocop just keep coming up in these examples as a generic stand in name for some reason? This is such a tough question to answer because the sport has evolved so much in a short time. Were they good? Was the competition just awful? How did the fact that no one was being tested for performance enhancers impact things? But it's sort of a pointless line of questioning. It doesn't matter how good Crocop is. What matters is that he was going up against tiny pro wrestlers.
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Jun 8, 2012 08:58
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Best Friends posted:Would it really be necessary to pay pro wrestlers to not try to beat Crocop? Was Crocop seriously that bad in the pride era? That is not a rhetorical question, I'm relatively new to this sport and don't know beans about what fighters were like during Pride. Or does Crocop just keep coming up in these examples as a generic stand in name for some reason? guys like cro cop and wanderlei clearly have padded records, but there's no point in working those fights unless you want to protect the poor pro wrestler's health (they didn't). that's just a dumb thing chael started saying because that idiot pro wrestler friend of his probably still thinks he's a real fighter and wants to save face. in the same interview chael tells rogan about how his costume designer friends in hollywood think the bigfoot video is legit, he's pretty gullible.
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Jun 8, 2012 09:44
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I refuse to believe that Chael Patrick Sonnen has costume designer friends in Hollywood.
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Jun 8, 2012 09:51
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