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Azure_Horizon posted:It's just surprising to me considering FFIX was more well-received from game critics than VII was. If he thinks FFVII was the pinnacle of quality in the franchise, well... ...he's right. Ain't no gettin' offa this train we're on!
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Jun 26, 2012 08:25
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By what criteria is he planning on judging "better"? Considering that you have people all loving different games in the series for completely different reasons, and that what you get out of a video game is completely subjective, based on the individual playing it, that's not a very good milestone to set. It's even worse when you consider that this is probably the most contentious game franchise in existence (Every game is the worst game in the series.  )Maybe he just means copies+related merchandise sold? I have no citation for this, but I would presume that FF7 and all that bears its name has earned the company the most out of everything FF-related.
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Jun 26, 2012 08:29
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FFVII is a lower-mid tier FF. It has been topped countless times.
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Jun 26, 2012 08:35
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Mazed posted:Maybe he just means copies+related merchandise sold? I have no citation for this, but I would presume that FF7 and all that bears its name has earned the company the most out of everything FF-related. Just the other day they said that FF11 has been the most profitable of all the FF games.
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Jun 26, 2012 08:42
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:...he's right. He's at worst flat out and completely wrong.
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Jun 26, 2012 09:10
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Just the other day they said that FF11 has been the most profitable of all the FF games. If games are anything like movies, determining profitability is basically impossible. Who gets paid what money from which pocket turns accounting into a nightmare and in the end you might as well just make up numbers. Also, there's lots of non-main game FF7 spin offs, movies, blah blah that probably generated enough to put it over FF11.
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Jun 26, 2012 09:17
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:Just the other day they said that FF11 has been the most profitable of all the FF games. I wonder how much of that was people who forgot to cancel their account
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Jun 26, 2012 09:20
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Mazed posted:By what criteria is he planning on judging "better"? Maybe he's stating his opinion, or the prevalent opinion at S-E, rather than establishing some kind of crazy objective standard based on statistics
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Jun 26, 2012 09:43
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This Jacket Is Me posted:Also, there's lots of non-main game FF7 spin offs, movies, blah blah that probably generated enough to put it over FF11. I sincerely doubt it. Someone who has played FFXI since release has spent thousands on the game. Newer players won't have spent as much, but still much more than an initial $60 the developer doesn't see if you buy used or rent.
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Jun 26, 2012 10:28
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Whoops, I forgot FF11 was the first MMO. I always get FF11 and 12 confused, for some reason.
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Jun 26, 2012 10:42
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I thought FF2 was the best FF. They did that battle system once and then could never use it again because it was just too perfect. Also the whole killing off half the world's population. Vil posted:Couldn't you have just thrown a Magic Lamp Odin at them? The trench even has a lamp-recharging spot. Keep in mind I had Sandworm kill my Berserker rather than start the battle dead, and I fought Tyrannosaur legit rather than cheese him with a Phoenix Down. I'm trying to play "legit" until I actually need to cheese stuff to win.
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Jun 26, 2012 10:47
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Mega64 posted:I thought FF2 was the best FF. They did that battle system once and then could never use it again because it was just too perfect. If you were right, this would be a world without SaGa. A better, more decent world.
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Jun 26, 2012 10:53
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Zombies' Downfall posted:If you were right, this would be a world without SaGa. Hey, SaGa brought us Kenji Ito who happens to be a pretty great guy.
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Jun 26, 2012 11:05
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FF11 has been active for 10 years. They just celebrated the 10 year anniversary. It's about a $13 a month charge, more if you wanted other characters (a lot of people did because of the insane storage requirements) 13x12: $156 a year, + $50 for the game = let's round it to $200, if you just subscribe for a year MEANWHILE... FFX: $50 FFXII: $50 FFXIII:$60 The last what, 10 years of mainstream releases are less sales revenue than a year of FF11. FF11 is a lot cheaper to keep working on too - you pump out expansions to keep players interested but that doesn't take 200 people 5 years. Also loads of people who "quit" didn't do so overnight and left their account open for a while. If you leave your account open for 4 months without playing you just paid as much as FFX. There's a reason everyone and their mom was trying to make MMOs for a while, they can make a lot of money if you do it right.
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Jun 26, 2012 12:34
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That said, there is a not-insignificant upkeep cost associated with MMOs that you don't have with stand-alone titles. I don't think that FFXI was barely breaking even or anything, but saying that every month is $13 pure profit is pretty disingenuous.  Phrased differently, once a game like FFXIII is paid off (revenue => costs), that's it, it's paid off, and everything thereafter is profit. An MMO can't be so succinctly "paid off" as it has recurring costs (data center/bandwidth costs, data center support staff, customer service staff, new expansions/raid content to keep people's interests, etc). All that said, I wouldn't for a moment doubt FFXI's status as SE's most profitable venture. I just wish the user interface wasn't so goddamned convoluted and hard to use. Every time I've tried to play FFXI (and I've tried a good 3-4 times), it takes me 15 minutes to find and figure out how to fight a drat monster, let alone do anything meaningful. 
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Jun 26, 2012 13:05
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Kyrosiris posted:That said, there is a not-insignificant upkeep cost associated with MMOs that you don't have with stand-alone titles. I don't think that FFXI was barely breaking even or anything, but saying that every month is $13 pure profit is pretty disingenuous. That's true but I'd imagine your guaranteed income every month should balance that out, not to mention that although games like FF13 can be "paid off" eventually the sales dropoff for FF games is huge, you basically have a couple of months to sell what you can. I work in retail finance but our group doesn't sell any subscription based services, mostly clothes, cosmetics and restaurants. If they could come up with any way to guarantee the same person would buy something from you every single month they'd kill for it, they've certainly tried Also profitable or not FF11 is still pretty bad, even the old games have friendlier interfaces and didn't make you wait for airships in real time after you had to do 15 missions to even get permission to board an airship.
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Jun 26, 2012 13:22
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Oh I know. I just want to play a Red Mage, damnit. vv Actually, being a heal and buff machine sounds appealing. 
Kyrosiris fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 13:29
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Forgot to factor the price of buying each of those expansions, new, plus the lovely $10 add-ons that didn't add new zones or jobs and finally drove me to quit. Not that I'm bitter. Also, you can take solace in the fact that Red Mage is awfully underappreciated, and regularly gets told to stand back and keep casting Refresh. Or heal. I loved playing the job solo to sub to better jobs, but I'd never party as RDM.
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Jun 26, 2012 13:51
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Also, you can take solace in the fact that Red Mage is awfully underappreciated, and regularly gets told to stand back and keep casting Refresh. Or heal. I loved playing the job solo to sub to better jobs, but I'd never party as RDM. But that was literally the point of RDM? It was the guaranteed group class next to WHM so underappreciated is not the right word. If you were doing anything but refresh as RDM and instead tried attacking you weren't doing your job and were actively making the party wipe due to the way TP worked.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:06
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I don't disagree, I just think it's a waste of a class they could have done more with. Reread your description of RDM then read what they said the job was:quote:These fighter-mages can utilize both black and white magic, as well as the arts of the sword.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:23
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:I don't disagree, I just think it's a waste of a class they could have done more with. Reread your description of RDM then read what they said the job was: Hey, they never implied you were good with any of those things just that you could. Much like you could play dragoon but you wouldn't be able to do it with other human beings because they would be having a race to mash kick from party.
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Jun 26, 2012 14:29
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:I don't disagree, I just think it's a waste of a class they could have done more with. Reread your description of RDM then read what they said the job was: What the hell are they going to do with that new Rune Fencer job now? It's basically what Red Mage looked like when you first pick it. Edit: My favorite part of being RNG/NIN meant that literally getting into fights cost me loads and loads of money
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Jun 26, 2012 14:30
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:What the hell are they going to do with that new Rune Fencer job now? It's basically what Red Mage looked like when you first pick it. MDef tanking. Reportedly. Isn't that what the game needed back when Absolute Virtue was undefeated?
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Jun 26, 2012 14:31
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So a Berserker with Rune Axe does about as much damage as a Magus Rod boosted -ga spell. That's pretty nice. If only I could aim with my Berserker.
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Jun 26, 2012 18:45
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Kyrosiris posted:Oh I know. I just want to play a Red Mage, damnit. If you wanna play Red Mage, then find a way to make a private server or something. From rumors I've only heard, everyone loves max-level Red Mages, but nobody wants to help people level them. Red Mage is a pretty crappy solo class on top of that because its heals are subpar, but so is its damage output. It's so cool in concept and in theory, but in practice it can get really frustrating Plus all you have is assholes whose sole achievement in life is playing an online game and they have no greater aspirations and all they do is talk poo poo and refuse to help you because you're new blood, play a loving fighter or some other set-it-and-forget-it class you noob bitch get the gently caress off my server. Yeah, my experience with 11 was really, really loving bad. I hate playing games with competitive people with no other real skills, they get so fuckin' high and mighty and such overinflated egos over playing a video game 
Fur20 fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 19:13
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The White Dragon posted:From rumors I've only heard, everyone loves max-level Red Mages. You must have played at the exact transition point between the first 4 years or so where RDM was a defacto necessary part of any party and the last few years where anybody can level to max in a week or two without a party. Sorry your experience was so terrible but on the plus side, you didn't play FFXI long so good for you. That said the reason RDM was so highly prized was refresh which makes you regen MP and in any PVP scenario stun/quick cast. You see, quick cast let you cast anything as though it had no refresh time. Stun let you stun someone. Combine the two and you lock a person in place and kill them while they can do absolutely nothing to stop you. Barudak fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jun 26, 2012 |
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Jun 26, 2012 19:31
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I just completed the four job fiesta challenge and I have to say that I am actually very pleased with how this went. I have been wanting to play some old games again but every time I load it up I just get this ugghhh feeling and stop. This challenge gave me the opportunity to enjoy this game again while helping a good cause. My party was: Thief Monk White Mage Red Mage This provided some challenge early on ( biblios and garula were complete assholes ) but overall dual cast with holy saved the day for me. I would love to participate in other challenges like this in the future.
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Jun 27, 2012 02:16
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I've drawn Monk, Mystic Knight, Geomancer, and Dancer. I just made it past the Library; Garula and Liquid Flame guy were a bitch. I don't have the Earth crystal unlocked yet, but can I assume Dancer is going to be extremely difficult to win with? I've never beaten the game, but have played quite a bit of it, just never used that class at all.
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Jun 27, 2012 02:19
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So I started a hard mode fiesta after finishing my first one and got monk for my first job. For now it's nice to not have to worry about MP for a bit. At least after the Blue Magic/Time Magic fest that my last party was. Siren didn't even get to turn undead before I focused her to death. 
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Jun 27, 2012 02:21
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68k posted:I've drawn Monk, Mystic Knight, Geomancer, and Dancer. I just made it past the Library; Garula and Liquid Flame guy were a bitch. I don't have the Earth crystal unlocked yet, but can I assume Dancer is going to be extremely difficult to win with? I've never beaten the game, but have played quite a bit of it, just never used that class at all. Dancer's a gimmicky but fun class. Equip the Chicken Knife and the Rainbow Dress and you have a 50% chance to do 9999 damage with Dance, easiest way to hit the damage cap at endgame.
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Jun 27, 2012 02:42
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Barudak posted:That said the reason RDM was so highly prized was refresh which makes you regen MP and in any PVP scenario stun/quick cast. You see, quick cast let you cast anything as though it had no refresh time. Stun let you stun someone. Combine the two and you lock a person in place and kill them while they can do absolutely nothing to stop you. So quick everyone is to forget that RDM is the best debuffer in the game. A good RDM with Slow II, Paralyze II, and some other choice debuffs may be the difference between victory and a total wipe. EDIT: And are you talking about Fast Cast or Chainspell? Because Fast Cast just shortened cast times, and Chainspell is a 2hr ability that only lasts about a minute if I recall correctly.
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Jun 27, 2012 02:59
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Yep, so RDM was great for any linkshell that didn't melee zerg everything in seconds.... Oh, wait.
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Jun 27, 2012 03:03
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Yep, so RDM was great for any linkshell that didn't melee zerg everything in seconds.... Oh sure, if you're gonna take an hour to zombie slog your way through something than who needs anything but a pointy stick?
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Jun 27, 2012 03:06
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Dr Pepper posted:Equip the Chicken Knife and the Rainbow Dress This is what I've been waiting for my whole life
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Jun 27, 2012 03:07
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SpazmasterX posted:Oh sure, if you're gonna take an hour to zombie slog your way through something than who needs anything but a pointy stick? Zombie slog? That's when you want RDMs, they make life easier for everyone. I'm talking about 15 second to minute-long battles where you throw DRKs and SAMs at it til it dies.
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Jun 27, 2012 03:12
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After a short hiatus, the Fiesta is BACK! Now that the Forked Tower is no more, can anything challenge team melee? http://www.justin.tv/cube89
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Jun 27, 2012 03:14
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nene. posted:After a short hiatus, the Fiesta is BACK! Now that the Forked Tower is no more, can anything challenge team melee? You are a very bad person.  e: That cartoon is painful.
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Jun 27, 2012 03:16
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Pyroxene Stigma posted:Zombie slog? That's when you want RDMs, they make life easier for everyone. I'm talking about 15 second to minute-long battles where you throw DRKs and SAMs at it til it dies. I wonder if we're talking about the same type of mobs, because I'm talking about the real top tier endgame poo poo that will ruin your day if you look at it wrong. Not the endgame stuff from a couple years back that any half-assed group can take down easily these days.
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Jun 27, 2012 03:18
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 Red Mage in FFXI has had the most wildly varying usefulness flux of any job in FFXI, I'd say. Waaaaaay back when, during the JP release (possibly even during the JP beta,) before the game was released in America, RDM was the worst job in the game. They had terrible melee abilities, terrible gear options (since the best caster things were White Mage / Black Mage only), and terrible healing power. You were essentially quarter White Mage and Black Mage with some skill in Sword. A patch or two later, Square Enix gave Red Mages an ability called Convert which instantly swapped your current HP and MP. This was as broken as it seemed, giving Red Mages a full MP restore every 10 minutes. In addition, they were also given a spell called Refresh, which slowly restores a target's MP over time. These two things combined gave Red Mages insane longevity, making them by far the best healers at the time. So much so, in fact, that White Mages were all but shunned as main healers from any event, save extremely hard endgame activities. Even then, White Mages were only added for their ability to mitigate magical and elemental damage. Some more time passed and people eventually saw that not taking any damage at all is vastly better than taking reduced damage. This began the era of Ninjas tanking via their Ninjustu spell, Utsusemi. What Utsusemi does is give you a buff to evade the next three to five single target attacks that would hit the Ninja (based on gear and the level of the spell used.) Notice my specific word choice: if you would dodge or parry an attack while you have shadows up, the shadows are not consumed. Properly geared Ninjas can easily ride out their Utsusemi recast timers to avoid ever being hit, aside from Area of Effect attacks (which strip all shadows instantly, and damage the Ninja.) One final benefit to Ninja tanking is the way the enmity system, or "hate" works in FFXI. To over simplify things, each action you take builds a numeric amount of enmity towards the mob, and taking damage reduces that numeric amount of enmity from that mob. A tank taking a large amount of damage from a mob's special attack could easily lose the mobs attention and have it go attack other melee or even the healers. Shadows make tanks extra "sticky" by avoiding those big damaging attacks, which in turn requires less healing, but also losing less enmity overall. What does this have to do with Red Mages? Well, thanks to the sub job system, everyone could gain use of Utsusemi, giving anyone large amounts of avoidance. Red Mage soloists would do this and noticed that with their Fast Cast job trait and gear, they could completely floor the recast timers on Utsusemi. In addition, during this time many tests about how enmity exactly works were being conducted and it was shown that many of the Red Mages' spells actually had large amounts of enmity behind them. By utilizing their small recast times on Utsusemi and their large enmity spells, savvy linkshells starting using Red Mages are gimmicky tanks for some events. Red Mages even had an often ignored job trait to reduce incoming magical damage to deal with spells that hit in an area of effect. Unfortunately, their tanking days were short lived, as Square Enix patched their spells, causing them to no longer generate the crazy amounts of enmity. Still, Red Mages were highly sought during the level 75 age, due to their many advantages. They had access to amazing enfeebling spells, namely Slow II and Paralyze II, which many linkshells considered to be required for endgame fights. They also had unique utility with their two hour ability: Chainspell. Simply put, for 45 seconds, every spell is instant cast and has no recast. Linkshells would combine this with a spell the Dark Knight sub job gave: Stun. Chainspell Stun enabled "zerg" tactics where you stun lock a monster while you have legions of the best damage dealers you have available beating on it for 45 seconds times the number of RDM/DRKs you had. This was a common tactic for years, until Square Enix started making bosses immune to Stun. Fast forward some more and we enter the age of level cap increases, Abyssea, and the fall of the Red Mage. Again, to over simplify things, Abyssea is an expansion which followed the level cap increases to 99. In addition, the gear that you could obtain from bosses in Abyssea zones blew away everything prior. However, there was a trick to getting items to drop. You had to cast a random spell or use a random ability from a pre-determined list in order to "stagger" it and enable the item to drop. Eventually, the list was found out and Red Mage was not one of the lucky jobs that had many of the triggers (to be fair, most jobs aren't.) This started a trend of low manning content, bringing only the few jobs that could hit the triggers. In doing so, people realized that the debuffs that Red Mages brought were not, in fact, necessary to beat the bosses. In many cases, monsters were outright immune to their debuffs. In addition, simply being inside Abyssea gave you access to batshit crazy buffs. Under best circumstances, a Red Mage could reliably get about 6 MP refresh from buffs which was considered to be great. Inside Abyssea, you could get 10 right off the bat and if you wanted more, you could easily get it. During this time, White Mages were complaining that they were terrible compared to Red Mages and had been getting buffs to compensate. The long and short of it, White Mages were now vastly better healers, both inside and outside Abyssea, and are now considered to be the only main healer in the game. And here were sit today, looking into a brand new expansion in 2013, Seekers of Adoulin. Two new jobs were announced, Geomancer and Rune Fencer. Without sounding too  , the jobs sound like they are encroaching even more on Red Mage's territory, pushing them further into the job worthlessness. Geomancer seems to be centered around giving zone-based buffs and debuffs, as well as having a decent casting offensive abilities. Rune Fencers are set to be a magical defense tank who empowers their swords with runes. Many players assume the effect to be similar to the En- spells that Red Mages have. Basically, the problem Red Mages have is they serve no purpose that another job couldn't also fill, but better. The two new jobs seemingly continue this trend.Note, that no where in this post did I mention anything about Red Mages meleeing, because that has always been, and always will be, a utter joke. tl;dr version: Red Mages were terrible, then great! But now they suck again.
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Jun 27, 2012 04:02
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DapperDuck posted:Note, that no where in this post did I mention anything about Red Mages meleeing, because that has always been, and always will be, a utter joke. Everyone always thought it was hilarious when I bust out a sword and shield and 'melee gear' in situations where I was on RDM, but we were doing well enough that I might as well poke the thing a little while tossing the occasional spell.
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Jun 27, 2012 04:08
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