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Alzabo
Oct 23, 2002

You watched it, you can't unwatch it.
Ew. How is that Nissan a cross shop for BRZ/FR-S buyers? It's FWD or FWD-based AWD and not RWD.

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Laserface
Dec 24, 2004

What I dont understand is that they scrapped the new Silvia due to the GFC but they will develop this instead? why not just continue the Silvia now?

Hello Spaceman
Jan 18, 2005

hop, skip, and jumpgate

Alzabo posted:

Ew. How is that Nissan a cross shop for BRZ/FR-S buyers? It's FWD or FWD-based AWD and not RWD.

I thought it was already established that the majority of BRZ86RS buyers don't care about car stuff and won't give a poo poo that it's RWD. The sperging "omg rwd" people are the minority.


The Nissan...
New? Check.
Sports car? Check.
JDM cred? Check.

And it comes with a turbo, so it'll be a hit with the 2f2f crowd.

D C
Jun 20, 2004

1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1.6L probably grossly out powers the Toyobaru,

Its what Toyota/Subaru should have done, not put that poo poo excuse for an economy engine in.

Hello Spaceman
Jan 18, 2005

hop, skip, and jumpgate

D C posted:

1.6L probably grossly out powers the Toyobaru,

Its what Toyota/Subaru should have done, not put that poo poo excuse for an economy engine in.

"but but but my low centre of gravity"
:goonsay:

I bet you won't have to drop the engine on the Nissan when you want to change plugs.
And you can overtake people without dropping 3 gears.

There's another joke in here somewhere about Toyota dropping the ball.

Laserface
Dec 24, 2004

Its the strangest thing. so many 86 owners are all 'it has plenty of power its more for enjoyment and fun than outright power' yet they get a gigantic erection for the various projects that are ripping out the FA20 and dropping in 2JZ/LS1/Lexus V8/EJ25.

I think a lot of the tuners in Japan that received these early deliveries did their testing, realised the FA20 is going to need a LOT of poo poo done to it to become powerful/its not got a lot of potential and that is why they quickly dumped the factory engine for something more powerful.

I think out of all the big name tuning houses in Japan that got one to start developing with, HKS is the only one thats done any real work on the engine itself.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

Laserface posted:

What I dont understand is that they scrapped the new Silvia due to the GFC but they will develop this instead? why not just continue the Silvia now?

Because this is basically a rebodied Juke. Making another small FWD car based on an existing platform is much, much cheaper than developing a new small RWD car platform. Even the Z is based on the larger FM platform and it pays a price/weight premium because of it.

Oh, also, keep in mind that rendering is 100% bullshit. If anything, it's far more likely to look something like this, an actual concept car from last year:




Or basically, a 2-door Nissan Micra.

OXBALLS DOT COM fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jul 27, 2012

Das Volk
Nov 19, 2002

by Cyrano4747

Cat Terrist posted:

There is no unique bed in procedure (altho drive it like you stole it but nothing over 4000 rpm is a bit different, which is what I've been told by the dealer to use) - but it's the nature of boxer motors to need a few more kms to achieve their best tolerances.

To start from the beginning -

When an engine is first built, even with today's much better tolerances, they all need a bit of time to take rough edges off the moving parts, the rough bits are still boody small but they are there. So the engine will need to wear them down to be smooth. These rough edges dont allow the engine to be quite as free spinning and drag on the moving parts. Thence, you develop less power, the engine isnt as happy to rev etc.

Once the rough edges are gone, you have completely smooth bearings, cylinder walls etc so the engine now can produce it best. Which for a I or V format, occurs at around 1000 to 3000 kms. The fact htere's likely to be tiny metal shavings in the oil is the reason why you flush the oil at 1000 - 1500 kms for any motor.

The difference between a boxer and a I or V is that there is a tendancy for a Boxer to bed in on the bottom side first and to take longer to fully achieve bedding in on the top - so you get your smooth cylinder wall at the bottom fairly quickly, but the top will take longer. So thence you have more resistance to parts moving for longer until the top surfaces achieve their bed in as well. Given tolerances and smoothness from the factory is much better than it used to be, the effect isnt as noticable but it's still there.

Also, because there's more pressure on the bottom surfaces, there's more friction until it all smooths off than in a I or V, thence less performance.

It was I believe first realised what a difference a well bedded in Boxer motor had over one with the standard bed in distance in about the 60's VW ran a bunch of Beetles in production car racing and the factory kept wondering why they got their asses handed to them by a privateer with a car with 20,000 kms. It turned out the engine with the kms on it was able to rev better and produce a handful more hp as a result. This became a resonably well known trick for Beetles and Porches - use engines that had 10,000 to 20,000 kms on them and you were 1-2 secs a lap quicker. It also applied to Subaru engines as well, up to the WRX it was always a good idea to use an engine with a few kms on it to get the best out of it.

Another way you notice this is oil consumption. There's a very large range of tolerance in the BMW M motors going back to the S14 for oil consumption. Partly it has to do with how hard you drive, but it also comes back to that extended break-in period. The M cars that use less oil on average also make more power stock, and those cars tended to be owned by people who didn't listen to the typical car forum retard shouting 'run it in hard bro'

I'd love to see someone do a quantitative analysis of the data. There's a huge DB of dyno results, all someone would need to do is look at run-in procedures.

CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

Das Volk posted:

and those cars tended to be owned by people who didn't listen to the typical car forum retard shouting 'run it in hard bro'


I'm not an expert in breaking an engine in but the current fashion of thrash the gently caress out of it flies in the face of 100 years best practice, which was always take it dead easy and nothing over 80 kph for at least 1000 kms - The look of horror I had for the Subaru techs when they told me the official breakin procdedure for my Forester would have been priceless.


quote:

I thought it was already established that the majority of BRZ86RS buyers don't care about car stuff and won't give a poo poo that it's RWD. The sperging "omg rwd" people are the minority.

The impression I have is the opposite, the Toybaru is being snapped up because it's RWD and is a good car to have a thrash in.

quote:

Its the strangest thing. so many 86 owners are all 'it has plenty of power its more for enjoyment and fun than outright power' yet they get a gigantic erection for the various projects that are ripping out the FA20 and dropping in 2JZ/LS1/Lexus V8/EJ25.

And why wouldnt they get hard seeing what can be done? That's quite blatantly one of the selling points, it's a car you can let your imagination run wild with. A FWD shitbox even with a turbo is ever only going to be a FWD shitbox.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

Das Volk posted:

I'd love to see someone do a quantitative analysis of the data. There's a huge DB of dyno results, all someone would need to do is cross-reference the staff list for the manufacturer to find out who drove it to the storage yard, for the dock to find out who drove each car off the ship, and for the dealers to find out who drove it off the transporter.
It would later turn out that the world's best engine trainer is Carlos Ramirez, an illegal immigrant working on berth 197 at the LA docks Wednesdays to Fridays. He was quoted as saying "Run it hard, bro", shortly before sighting two CBP officers and doing exactly that.

zorch
Nov 28, 2006


Hey let's take our ugly crossover SUV and scale it down to a sport coupe, it'll look fantastic :allears:

Hello Spaceman
Jan 18, 2005

hop, skip, and jumpgate

Cat Terrist posted:

The impression I have is the opposite, the Toybaru is being snapped up because it's RWD and is a good car to have a thrash in.

I think it's a good car to have a thrash in. You think so. Jimmy Stickerbomb and the 49999 other retards who used to drive Celicas and Integras just want another hellasick car to stance out bro.

quote:

And why wouldnt they get hard seeing what can be done? That's quite blatantly one of the selling points, it's a car you can let your imagination run wild with. A FWD shitbox even with a turbo is ever only going to be a FWD shitbox.

I'm pretty sure one of the bigg-- in fact THE selling point about this car is its low CoG and "just enough" power. People defending those things and getting excited about heavy V8 swaps are kinda missing the point.

Laserface
Dec 24, 2004

Cat Terrist posted:

And why wouldnt they get hard seeing what can be done? That's quite blatantly one of the selling points, it's a car you can let your imagination run wild with. A FWD shitbox even with a turbo is ever only going to be a FWD shitbox.

its stupid. "Your 86 has less power than my 13 year old skyline" "BUT ITS ABOUT BEING FUN AND AFFORDABLE AND LOW CoG AND BOXER MOTOR TOYOTA HERITAGE AND *masturbates about engine swaps that totally negate literally everything they just said*"

EDIT: what I mean is these people fight about 'not needing any more power' and then will also say 'hell yeah dropping in a 2JZ!' or throwing money at a turbo kit. Make up your loving minds.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

D C posted:

1.6L probably grossly out powers the Toyobaru,

Its what Toyota/Subaru should have done, not put that poo poo excuse for an economy engine in.

Highly doubtful. The 1.6L turbo in the Juke, which is what this car is supposedly going to be based on, makes 188 hp @5600 and 177 f/lb @ 2000. Even assuming that the engine is detuned to not break the CVT in the Juke, and assuming you optimize for high-end power over low-end torque, it still probably wont be more than a hair over 200 hp. Now factor in the signficantly higher drivetrain losses associated with an AWD system, and you're looking at less wheel HP compounded by what is likely to be extra weight (AWD + non-bespoke/non-specialized chassis/platform) and worse weight balance/MOI/CG (AWD with conventional transverse inline engine).

n8r
Jul 3, 2003

I helped Lowtax become a cyborg and all I got was this lousy avatar
The Nissan sounds more like a WRX than a BRZFT.

I HATE PINK BIKES
Feb 15, 2012

Cream_Filling posted:

Highly doubtful. The 1.6L turbo in the Juke, which is what this car is supposedly going to be based on, makes 188 hp @5600 and 177 f/lb @ 2000. Even assuming that the engine is detuned to not break the CVT in the Juke, and assuming you optimize for high-end power over low-end torque, it still probably wont be more than a hair over 200 hp.

300hp in the Deltawing.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

I HATE PINK BIKES posted:

300hp in the Deltawing.

The Super GT BRZ also makes 300 hp. Race cars are not normal cars.

Hello Spaceman
Jan 18, 2005

hop, skip, and jumpgate

Cream_Filling posted:

Highly doubtful. The 1.6L turbo in the Juke, which is what this car is supposedly going to be based on, makes 188 hp @5600 and 177 f/lb @ 2000. Even assuming that the engine is detuned to not break the CVT in the Juke, and assuming you optimize for high-end power over low-end torque, it still probably wont be more than a hair over 200 hp. Now factor in the signficantly higher drivetrain losses associated with an AWD system, and you're looking at less wheel HP compounded by what is likely to be extra weight (AWD + non-bespoke/non-specialized chassis/platform) and worse weight balance/MOI/CG (AWD with conventional transverse inline engine).

You're right.

It's probably very difficult to get barely 200hp from a 1.6-litre turbo in a road car.

OXBALLS DOT COM
Sep 11, 2005

by FactsAreUseless
Young Orc

I didn't say it was difficult. I said it was most likely that it will only get slightly over 200 hp. Which you also seem to agree with me on, since you just linked to a bunch of similar 1.6 liter turbo cars that also get slightly over 200 hp (and one non-production concept car that gets more).

Flesh Croissant
Apr 23, 2010

by FactsAreUseless

I HATE PINK BIKES posted:

300hp in the Deltawing.

Engine teardown and rebuild every 40 hours or so.

MiniFoo
Dec 25, 2006

METHAMPHETAMINE

Hello Spaceman posted:

I'm pretty sure one of the bigg-- in fact THE selling point about this car is its low CoG and "just enough" power. People defending those things and getting excited about heavy V8 swaps are kinda missing the point.

Laserface posted:

its stupid. "Your 86 has less power than my 13 year old skyline" "BUT ITS ABOUT BEING FUN AND AFFORDABLE AND LOW CoG AND BOXER MOTOR TOYOTA HERITAGE AND *masturbates about engine swaps that totally negate literally everything they just said*"

EDIT: what I mean is these people fight about 'not needing any more power' and then will also say 'hell yeah dropping in a 2JZ!' or throwing money at a turbo kit. Make up your loving minds.

I don't want to sound obtuse, but why do they need to take a side and stick with it? For example, my RX-7 barely puts out 100hp to the wheels, but I enjoy the fact that it's lightweight and balanced. On the contrary, if I had an empty FB shell and a money tree in my backyard, you bet your rear end I'd throw an LS1 in the engine bay because that's loving awesome. Realistically, I don't have a spare car to swap in a V8, so I have to choose the 12A... yet I love it all the same.

All I'm trying to say is that the Toyobaru is probably a really fun car to drive with the stock boxer, but I believe there's no foul in coveting more power.

Blame Pyrrhus
May 6, 2003

Me reaping: Well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.
Pillbug
Rather than buy a new Subaru, I picked up one of these last night. There was a BRZ in town, but the dealership owned it and wasn't selling. I went with a Silver FR-S instead.

Trip report: weeeeeee




I came from a 2005 WRX. I have to say, for the money it sure is a lotta fun, though I've not really pushed it hard, only 28 miles on it so far. I've got basically 0 interest in doing anything to it, so chances are it's going to remain stock for the amount of time I own it.

A strangely high number of people know about these things, I've been asked twice about it so far today.

MiniFoo
Dec 25, 2006

METHAMPHETAMINE

Linux Nazi posted:

A strangely high number of people know about these things, I've been asked twice about it so far today.

Doesn't seem strange to me, what with the magnitude of commercials I've seen for it lately.

Blame Pyrrhus
May 6, 2003

Me reaping: Well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.
Pillbug

MiniFoo posted:

Doesn't seem strange to me, what with the magnitude of commercials I've seen for it lately.
It's just strange in a way to have people ask me about my car. People better informed about it than I am for sure. I'm not used to it!

Blame Pyrrhus fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jul 27, 2012

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006

by the sex ghost
You folks would know more than I about this, but have there been any news/rumors of a Lexus badged GT86?

Alzabo
Oct 23, 2002

You watched it, you can't unwatch it.

Solkanar512 posted:

You folks would know more than I about this, but have there been any news/rumors of a Lexus badged GT86?

Lexus exclusive standard features: sunroof, extra sound dampening, 19inch chrome finish alloy wheels, automatic transmission (now without column mounted paddle shift for added convenience). Colors available: white, black, silver, red or beige. Price: whatever the FR-S costs, add 7k USD.

:colbert:

D C
Jun 20, 2004

1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING
1-800-HOTLINEBLING

Cream_Filling posted:

I didn't say it was difficult. I said it was most likely that it will only get slightly over 200 hp. Which you also seem to agree with me on, since you just linked to a bunch of similar 1.6 liter turbo cars that also get slightly over 200 hp (and one non-production concept car that gets more).

Except its going to have more then 10 ft/lbs of torque, enough to drive up a hill or something.

Kenshin
Jan 10, 2007

Alzabo posted:

Lexus exclusive standard features: sunroof, extra sound dampening, 19inch chrome finish alloy wheels, automatic transmission (now without column mounted paddle shift for added convenience). Colors available: white, black, silver, red or beige. Price: whatever the FR-S costs, add 7k USD.

:colbert:
The Lexus LF-Derp

CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

Basically a male Margaret Thatcher

D C posted:

Except its going to have more then 10 ft/lbs of torque, enough to drive up a hill or something.

I can name 20 FWD "hot hatches" off the top of my head and 12 of those are more powerful. I know of one cheap RWD coupe for sale today that is sensational in it's element in a way no FWD can match.

quote:

I'm pretty sure one of the bigg-- in fact THE selling point about this car is its low CoG and "just enough" power. People defending those things and getting excited about heavy V8 swaps are kinda missing the point.

No, not really because the point of the Toybaru has always been either accept it's corner carver or get the toolbox out. It can actually be both depending on what you want to get out of it - The fact you have any number of swaps already out when the paint is barely dry shows the the strength in the platform and why it's going to be a cult car. We can enjoy it for what it is (and it is in it's element ridiculously good) or we can imagine adding a supercharger and another 40Kw, much like the WRX has always been either a great stocker or ridiculously good to mod.

The original AE86is exactly the same - a car that was at it's time pretty good stock (not quite as remarkable as the Toybaru can be) but also if you wanted to, lent itself to some weird and whacked out swaps and mods.

ROFLBOT
Apr 1, 2005

MiniFoo posted:

I don't want to sound obtuse, but why do they need to take a side and stick with it? For example, my RX-7 barely puts out 100hp to the wheels, but I enjoy the fact that it's lightweight and balanced. On the contrary, if I had an empty FB shell and a money tree in my backyard, you bet your rear end I'd throw an LS1 in the engine bay because that's loving awesome. Realistically, I don't have a spare car to swap in a V8, so I have to choose the 12A... yet I love it all the same.

All I'm trying to say is that the Toyobaru is probably a really fun car to drive with the stock boxer, but I believe there's no foul in coveting more power.

Exactly. On my BRZ I'll be doing the basic mods to free up the usual factory restrictions and I think putting a 2JZ or V8 in is a good way to ruin the car.

I also don't agree that the majority of people who have bought this car don't know/care about RWD.
Needless to say I also laugh at Nissan attempting to get in on the action by producing a car that is FWD or FWD-based AWD.

Withe the same power as the Toybaru plus no doubt more weight I'm sure it will be fun

Korbin
Nov 13, 2009

SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG SWAG
I saw my first brz today. It was in a ditch on the side of the road. Must have been trying to look fast and furious based on the tire marks.

Devyl
Mar 27, 2005

It slices!

It dices!

It makes Julienne fries!

ROFLBOT posted:

I also don't agree that the majority of people who have bought this car don't know/care about RWD.

It isn't that a lot of them don't know or care about the car being RWD, it's that a lot of them know just enough about RWD to be dangerous on the road. Just like FWD and AWD, there's a science to driving a RWD car that consists of more than "pull handbrake for powerslide".

Hello Spaceman
Jan 18, 2005

hop, skip, and jumpgate

Korbin posted:

I saw my first brz today. It was in a ditch on the side of the road. Must have been trying to look fast and furious based on the tire marks.

Did you stop to see if it had an LS1 swap?

sanchez
Feb 26, 2003

Cat Terrist posted:

I'm not an expert in breaking an engine in but the current fashion of thrash the gently caress out of it flies in the face of 100 years best practice, which was always take it dead easy and nothing over 80 kph for at least 1000 kms - The look of horror I had for the Subaru techs when they told me the official breakin procdedure for my Forester would have been priceless.

In the WRX I stuck to the 4000rpm limit (apart from a 1-2 runs up to 6k) for the first 1000 miles, but other than that beat the crap out of it as much as I could, lots of engine braking especially in the first 100 miles. The engine after 17000 miles burns no noticeable amount of oil and basically runs like at train. First oil change was at 3500 miles, the analysis was great as far as suspended bits of engine goes. Subsequent analysis has also been good.

Most new performance cars have probably been thrashed in their first 100 miles, as they're still on dealer lots and test drivers will redline them all day long.

sanchez fucked around with this message at 15:15 on Jul 29, 2012

zorch
Nov 28, 2006

ROFLBOT posted:

I also don't agree that the majority of people who have bought this car don't know/care about RWD.

Most of that was said about FR-S owners :laugh:

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.
Same way the Silvia/200SX and Prelude and Celica got cross-shopped back in the 90s

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

actually, yeah, I am a little mad
Pulled up to a grey BRZ today. Was gonna give the thumbs up but got caught off guard when I saw the chunky goth girl sitting in the passenger's seat. I think I ended up just having a retard smile on my face.

track day bro!
Feb 17, 2005

#essereFerrari
Grimey Drawer
Apparently Tsuchiya came to the uk to teach a fat bloke how to drift round some barrels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H07u8gPrfu0

Edit: found another video, on the official uk toyota channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJb52YYfy1A

track day bro! fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jul 30, 2012

discstickers
Jul 29, 2004

I spent most of the afternoon chasing this car...

I called nearly every Subaru and Scion dealer in the Seattle area, and only one had a car to drive (kinda, see below). It was a "certified" FR-S at Bellevue Toyota. 1100 miles, suspension kit, new wheels, leather seats, etc. They wanted 32k, but at least they were willing to let me take it out.

I found the power to be perfectly good (except in 5th and 6th). Over the shoulder visibility is poor. 5th and 6th were a little wonky; they seemed "further" away. Clutch is a bit hard to work smoothly, I'd have to work to not surge forward when upshifting (weird, I know).

Renton Subaru has a Blue Premium with no markup. If it was a Limited I would have bought it on the spot and cancelled my ST I have on order.

Every other Subie dealer is adding on 2-3k "market adjustment". One dealer is getting in an unclaimed Blue Limited in a week or so, but I told them they weren't getting my money with the markup.

Worst part: Salesman at Tacoma Subaru said "Yeah, sure you can drive it." I get there, get handed off to a different saleman and get told that I can't drive it unless they pull my credit or I put down a deposit. So don't buy from those assholes.

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zorch
Nov 28, 2006

Here's a pretty sweet video of a GT86 with a 2JZ swap:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-8lBWz9H9I

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