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`Nemesis posted:The DBW system in the Suburban probably does suck, but it sucks because it's GM and not because it's DBW. This. I've driven 3 GMs with DBW. A later model Cobalt, an 09 Malibu, and 2012 Cruze. The Cobalt and Malibu were absolutely horrible to drive, with horribly laggy throttle response that drat near got me rear ended twice when changing lanes in the Cobalt. The Cobalt would also take 2-3 seconds to downshift once you mashed the gas - the Malibu was a bit better at downshifting, but still aggravating to drive. The Cruze's throttle response was excellent though - and the Cruze overall really impressed me.
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Aug 1, 2012 07:51
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Like any emerging technology DBW had been badly implemented in a number of vehicles, and like any GM product it was badly implemented in nearly all of them that had it. DBW on engines with good software/hardware engineering gives excellent feel and control over throttle inputs. In cars that have multi-mode like e: happy? Das Volk fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Aug 1, 2012 |
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Aug 1, 2012 10:31
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Das Volk posted:Like any emerging technology DBW had been badly implemented in a number of vehicles, and like any GM product it was badly implemented in nearly all of them that had it. gently caress GM, MY M3 is superior... I think this is pretty much the quintessential DV post. I kid, I kid. Here's a mechanical failure to make up for it.   
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Aug 1, 2012 11:04
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Two Finger posted:Here's a mechanical failure to make up for it. Oil mist?
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Aug 1, 2012 12:24
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Viggen posted:I wouldn't call it horrible, but it is a failure.. I've gotten one out by soldering a little wire to the broken piece of the key
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Aug 1, 2012 13:08
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e: derp, was thinking of the Caliber.
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Aug 1, 2012 13:55
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Paul Boz_ posted:Pure. loving. Genius. You're welcome friend. You are also a tremendous goon for having HD magnets lying around 
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Aug 1, 2012 16:13
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`Nemesis posted:The point was not that the vehicles are comparable, but that the generalization that (all) DBW is crap is a false one. Yes, generalizations are bad. 
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Aug 1, 2012 16:36
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Paul Boz_ posted:I don't know why. My s2000 has drive by wire and the throttle response is faster than the pre-DBW S2000's. You can also tune parameters such as how much pedal pressure is required to go WOT as well as the ones Jamal posted using a FlashPro. The improved traction control for day to day driving is worth it by itself. Not saying this isn't true, but how? Is the tiny slack in a physical throttle wire really more noticeable than the built-in ~ms delay in DBW systems?
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Aug 1, 2012 18:32
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Shot in the dark here: prior to Drive By Wire, your throttle position sensor and the MAF/MAP (or earlier, just the MAF/MAP alone) are used by the ECU to decide what your fuel and ignition map would be, and there's a bit of (millisecond) lag there where you're too lean between the "request" of pushing the pedal and the "response" of a perfect stoichiometric mix in the cylinders. DBW should cut out the middleman of input from the sensor on the throttle body and improve the lag by that many milliseconds; not a lot but no doubt noticeable. By this logic, I assume that DBW wouldn't improve a carbed engine at all, although the rest of the reasons like traction control still apply.
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Aug 1, 2012 19:03
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While that may be the case it seems entirely more likely that simple changes in the throttle response curve is making him think it feels faster. One of the most popular mods to many motronic-based 80s Porsches and BMWs is to simply put on a different throttle cam that has a faster response. Even knowing what I'm doing and how it works, it still makes every last car I've put one on "feel faster".
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Aug 1, 2012 19:18
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bidikyoopi posted:Not saying this isn't true, but how? Is the tiny slack in a physical throttle wire really more noticeable than the built-in ~ms delay in DBW systems? What slack? No slack in mine. :3
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Aug 1, 2012 19:27
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MrChips posted:I've always heard that the biggest reason why DBW was adopted was that it makes stability control easier and cheaper to implement. Beyond that, with throttle position sensors and some kind of servo at the throttle body already with stability control, a cable linkage is kind of redundant. The reason DBW was adopted is because there is no reason not to aside from cost. There's literally no process involved in the drive train that would suffer for using DBW. It would be like continuing to drag the blocks used to create the pyramids using slaves with ropes rather then rolling them on logs because you like the visceral feel of watching things toil. You're giving the brain of the car that you can program to meet certain requirements the control every aspect better than a human ever can. What used to be a difficult to control 300hp is now so plebeian even grandmother can get in and lope to the store in. Has the lead footed poo poo lord you sold a 500hp Z06 to without ensuring any formal driver training inevitably rolled into the throttle of his Z06 too hard because he has more money than skill? The computer can simultaneously start cutting the fuel and spark mid injection and detonation event while comparing the rear tires slip and vehicle yaw profile. As it does this it reduces the throttle opening in the intake from 100% requested by the driver to a more modest 75% without asking him to prevent the engine from going lean while it makes the decision of whether it also needs to include single brake activation to bring the rear wheel spin rates into line and put the car back on intended course. Once the car has straightened out it gradually brings the throttle back to 100% to prevent the engine from going rich, which also helps out the fuel economy of this car. And it does this all while giving a handjob to the ego of the driver who now looks like a wreathed Michael Schumacher at the end of a Monaco GP instead of a demon in a waiter costume serving today's special of Phone Pole a la Carte to his passenger as they are both buried in the seats as the stagecoach driver ECU cracks the whip on the 500 horses pulling this wagon. The only people who rebel are the Luddites, the Amish who slowly eke down the road in their buggies and who convince themselves they are happy with their simple existence and mechanical feel because one time they had a bad experience, never truly aware that there are DBW systems that have the ECU perfectly mimick a throttle cable by giving the driver all the rope he requests while nary asking a question. Paul Boz_ posted:I don't know why. My s2000 has drive by wire and the throttle response is faster than the pre-DBW S2000's. You can also tune parameters such as how much pedal pressure is required to go WOT as well as the ones Jamal posted using a FlashPro. The improved traction control for day to day driving is worth it by itself. It's not more responsive, it's pretty much exactly equal. Muffinpox fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Aug 1, 2012 |
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Aug 1, 2012 21:43
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Goddamn that was some automotive poetry right there.
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Aug 1, 2012 21:57
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quote:there are DBW systems that have the ECU perfectly mimick a throttle cable by giving the driver all the rope he requests while nary asking a question. If I apply half-throttle, you open that loving throttle halfway, right now. Nothing more, nothing less. The results, good or bad, are the driver's alone to cause, and the driver's alone to deal with. I like the idea of DBW throttles, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the technology or the function. I do not like things such as not being able to left-foot brake because the car decides I must be accidentally hitting two pedals, and even if it's possible to change that with reprogramming, I shouldn't have to (and can't on things like hire cars).
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Aug 1, 2012 22:27
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InitialDave posted:This is all I want, and all a DBW throttle should do. All the traction and yaw control and second-guessing of the driver can get hosed. I don't get the complaining about how cars aren't made for like 1% of the drivers who care about how their throttle is mapped. If you are a pro racecar driver who demands a perfectly linear throttle map all you need is free software and a cable. Cars now are designed for the lowest common denominator because people spin their cars into a telephone poles and crash through the front of starbucks all the time. jamal fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Aug 1, 2012 |
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Aug 1, 2012 22:36
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Muffinpox posted:The reason DBW was adopted is because there is no reason not to aside from cost. There's literally no process involved in the drive train that would suffer for using DBW. It would be like continuing to drag the blocks used to create the pyramids using slaves with ropes rather then rolling them on logs because you like the visceral feel of watching things toil. You're giving the brain of the car that you can program to meet certain requirements the control every aspect better than a human ever can. What used to be a difficult to control 300hp is now so plebeian even grandmother can get in and lope to the store in. Has the lead footed poo poo lord you sold a 500hp Z06 to without ensuring any formal driver training inevitably rolled into the throttle of his Z06 too hard because he has more money than skill? The computer can simultaneously start cutting the fuel and spark mid injection and detonation event while comparing the rear tires slip and vehicle yaw profile. As it does this it reduces the throttle opening in the intake from 100% requested by the driver to a more modest 75% without asking him to prevent the engine from going lean while it makes the decision of whether it also needs to include single brake activation to bring the rear wheel spin rates into line and put the car back on intended course. Once the car has straightened out it gradually brings the throttle back to 100% to prevent the engine from going rich, which also helps out the fuel economy of this car. And it does this all while giving a handjob to the ego of the driver who now looks like a wreathed Michael Schumacher at the end of a Monaco GP instead of a demon in a waiter costume serving today's special of Phone Pole a la Carte to his passenger as they are both buried in the seats as the stagecoach driver ECU cracks the whip on the 500 horses pulling this wagon. I wish this whole post could be in the forum index under "Automotive Insanity." DBW on my GTO is awesome, only occasionally notice it when I stomp on the pedal but DBW cruise works better than vacuum operated cruise could ever hope to.
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Aug 1, 2012 22:45
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InitialDave posted:I do not like things such as not being able to left-foot brake because the car decides I must be accidentally hitting two pedals, and even if it's possible to change that with reprogramming, I shouldn't have to (and can't on things like hire cars). I've always thought the simple solution here is to implement a timer. If you have your feet on both pedals constantly for at least two seconds, you're probably a gomer with a "stuck pedal" trying to stop. The unfortunate reality of the current horsepower wars and litigious society mean that this type of nanny is a very real need today.
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Aug 1, 2012 22:48
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InitialDave posted:I like the idea of DBW throttles, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the technology or the function. I do not like things such as not being able to left-foot brake because the car decides I must be accidentally hitting two pedals, and even if it's possible to change that with reprogramming, I shouldn't have to (and can't on things like hire cars). Why are you left-foot-braking on rental cars? It's a cheap economy car you use to get from the airport to Grandma's, not Prodrive/WRC/97/001
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Aug 1, 2012 22:51
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jamal posted:Cars now are designed for the lowest common denominator because people spin their cars into a telephone poles and crash through the front of starbucks all the time. Cars shouldn't have interesting and unexpected characteristics that can catch people out, or inherently dangerous design features that have no advantage over safe ones, but that doesn't mean they should be pulled back from normal function just to stop people hurting themselves. I appreciate the reality of building and selling cars to the public at large. Doesn't mean I have to like it. IOwnCalculus posted:I've always thought the simple solution here is to implement a timer. If you have your feet on both pedals constantly for at least two seconds, you're probably a gomer with a "stuck pedal" trying to stop. The unfortunate reality of the current horsepower wars and litigious society mean that this type of nanny is a very real need today. Safety Dance posted:Why are you left-foot-braking on rental cars? It's a cheap economy car you use to get from the airport to Grandma's, not Prodrive/WRC/97/001 Edit: All the world's a rally stage, And all the men and women merely drivers. They have their exits and their apexes, And one man in his time breaks many parts. InitialDave fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Aug 1, 2012 |
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Aug 1, 2012 22:55
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jamal posted:I don't get the complaining about how cars aren't made for like 1% of the drivers who care about how their throttle is mapped. If you are a pro racecar driver who demands a perfectly linear throttle map all you need is free software and a cable. Well, on the flip side, if 99% of people don't care how it's mapped why can't it be mapped for the people who do give a poo poo? You don't need to be a pro anything to be aware that most DBW throttle implementations suck. All you need to do is try to heel and toe - it either cuts the throttle because you're already on the brake, or the damping function ignores the blip unless you hold it for much longer than you're used to.
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Aug 1, 2012 22:59
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well because most dbw mapping is done for emissions and economy. 1-2mpg makes a huge difference to sales and meeting cafe standards. Plus many performance oriented cars actually come with a dial or switch or some way of chaiging the mapping to your preference. Most of the dbw cars I've driven worked pretty well. The only one that really bugged me was the hyundai genesis. I actually find it easier to heel-toe in a dbw sti vs my own cable throttle Subaru.
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Aug 1, 2012 23:07
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Safety Dance posted:Why are you left-foot-braking on rental cars? It's a cheap economy car you use to get from the airport to Grandma's, not Prodrive/WRC/97/001 Wait, you DON'T get that extra insurance and drive it like a personal rally car?
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Aug 1, 2012 23:26
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GnarlyCharlie4u posted:I lucked out and got a key out of my dad's old Toyota pickup with a bunch of WD-40, a dentist pick, and a harddrive magnet. I'll have to try this. Since it ATE the drat thing when trying to gently rock it back and forth, I'm not praying for the sweet key release of death. At least I can still unlock the drat thing.
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Aug 1, 2012 23:41
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InitialDave posted:Dumb poo poo
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Aug 1, 2012 23:49
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InitialDave posted:If I buy a TVR and stick it into a hedge, it's not the fault of the car or the manufacturer if I decided to get cocky with 400bhp per ton. It's my fault for going outside the envelope of my abilities, and that is something which should have consequences. And if you're carrying a passenger, or there's a minivan in the oncoming lane that you drift into, or there's a pedestrian on the sidewalk between you and the hedge - well, they deserve to take part in the consequences of your bad driving too.
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Aug 1, 2012 23:50
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jamal posted:I don't get the complaining about how cars aren't made for like 1% of the drivers who care about how their throttle is mapped. If you are a pro racecar driver who demands a perfectly linear throttle map all you need is free software and a cable. Starting a car from a stop is a huge pain in the dick if you have a slow or variable throttle. Espcially if you're on a hill and tip in quickly; it pops the throttle open a ton and then curbs it in when it realizes it's given more than requested and bam, stall. I've stalled almost every single DBW car I've driven in stick at least once from a stop because none of them use a 1:1 mapping for initial tip-in. It's just not as intuitive as a throttle cable is since you have to learn the quirks.
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Aug 1, 2012 23:51
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Hey guys can we see some photos of mechanical failures instead of wanking on about how good your DBW system is or how good you can left foot brake?
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Aug 2, 2012 01:03
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You Am I posted:Wrong side up Backstory?
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Aug 2, 2012 01:34
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InitialDave posted:
I agree with this wholeheartedly. DBW pisses me off no end, and can be particularly dangerous if you need to move forward a little bit, pause then get away rapidly (out of a concealed entrance for instance) 
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Aug 2, 2012 01:34
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Colonel K posted:I agree with this wholeheartedly. DBW pisses me off no end, and can be particularly dangerous if you need to move forward a little bit, pause then get away rapidly (out of a concealed entrance for instance) Just like anything else, the technology needs refinement. People talked all kinds of poo poo about computer controls and fuel injection too.
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Aug 2, 2012 01:42
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Colonel K posted:I agree with this wholeheartedly. DBW pisses me off no end, and can be particularly dangerous if you need to move forward a little bit, pause then get away rapidly (out of a concealed entrance for instance) That's a photoshop.
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Aug 2, 2012 01:45
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Muffinpox posted:That's a photoshop. Very poorly done photoshop at that.
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Aug 2, 2012 01:50
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Muffinpox posted:That's a photoshop. EightBit posted:Very poorly done photoshop at that. Reuters? 
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Aug 2, 2012 02:03
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Joe Mama posted:Just like anything else, the technology needs refinement. People talked all kinds of poo poo about computer controls and fuel injection too. Some still do. Althoguh I can see the advantages of electronic fuel injection to mechanical. When it comes down to it though, I'd much rather fiddle with linkages and mechanicals than trace wires and sensors. Oops, that was supposed to be a radial engine failure. That'll teach me to copy and paste without checking.
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Aug 2, 2012 02:07
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Muffinpox posted:Starting a car from a stop is a huge pain in the dick if you have a slow or variable throttle. Espcially if you're on a hill and tip in quickly; it pops the throttle open a ton and then curbs it in when it realizes it's given more than requested and bam, stall. I've stalled almost every single DBW car I've driven in stick at least once from a stop because none of them use a 1:1 mapping for initial tip-in. It's just not as intuitive as a throttle cable is since you have to learn the quirks. Oh so so true. I have a 04 Saab 9-3 with classic GM DBW. With the air conditioning on and the borderline comical mitsu turbo power band taking off from a stop can make a person look pretty stupid. About 95% throttle from idle to 2500 and then 5% from 2500+. LAG,lag, grunt groan go nowhere, or just plain up and stall, and then boom wheel spin and looking like a giant rear end in a top hat. At least from a roll its pretty normal. Sorry to continue a derail, but man it feels good to bitch about that.
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Aug 2, 2012 02:41
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Hmm, just got back from a trip where I rented an altima with the CVT and DBW. I figured it was just the CVT being super responsive as often I'd suddenly rocket forward when lights turned green, but after reading this I suppose it was probably the throttle software instead. The CVT was actually pretty cool though, way more responsive than a normal auto.
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Aug 2, 2012 03:47
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Joe Mama posted:Just like anything else, the technology needs refinement. Fixed. You've still got dipshits out there that insist on yanking perfectly good fuel injection systems out of cars and put in carbs.
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Aug 2, 2012 04:47
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jamal posted:Cars now are designed for the lowest common denominator because people spin their cars into a telephone poles and crash through the front of starbucks all the time. I believe this is known as "fixing the wrong problem".
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Aug 2, 2012 04:49
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Enough chat, more failures.
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Aug 2, 2012 04:57
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