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TrueChaos posted:Backstory? It's obviously a rally car, and rally cars tend to roll over. But I googled the name on the side and "rollover" and this was the first result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuDaXxkOMrE Picture appears to have been taken around 32.5 seconds into that video.
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Aug 2, 2012 05:57
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Bad Angus! Bad!
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GnarlyCharlie4u posted:You're welcome friend. You are also a tremendous goon for having HD magnets lying around they're great for removing fragments of metal from one's eye... the horrible mechanic failure in this case being my stupidity and ensuing lack of eye protection while using an angle grinder several years ago.
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Aug 2, 2012 06:50
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kastein posted:they're great for removing fragments of metal from one's eye... the horrible mechanic failure in this case being my stupidity and ensuing lack of eye protection while using an angle grinder several years ago. So you're saying you've just been lucky for the last few years? 
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Aug 2, 2012 12:14
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That image makes me cringe so bad, mostly due to no jack stands 
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Aug 2, 2012 12:24
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I see two, one is mostly hidden by the brake rotor, the other is concealed by the shower of sparks.
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Aug 2, 2012 12:26
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It's hard to tell because of the angle but it really doesn't look like those jack stands are far enough forward to hold the car if the jack failed. I'm pretty sure the car would tip off them, unless there's another one somewhere off camera to the right. Terrible design failure (which lead to catastrophic failures, recalls, and extended warranties from ford): Here are all of the parts that comprise the timing chain system in the 4.0 sohc v6. Oh by the way one of those chains is on the back of the engine against the firewall. Seems reasonable to me! 
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Aug 2, 2012 14:44
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The only thing that hydro jack is holding up is the axle, the rest of the car was on the jackstands. Believe me, I tested it to make sure it wasn't going to flatten me. The spray of sparks is actually a bit over a foot in front of me, aimed to the side. It was dumb to do that, but not really dumb 
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Aug 2, 2012 15:20
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lazer_chicken posted:It's hard to tell because of the angle but it really doesn't look like those jack stands are far enough forward to hold the car if the jack failed. I'm pretty sure the car would tip off them, unless there's another one somewhere off camera to the right. Having a chain on both sides of the cam actually does a lot to help keep the cam in-sync with the crankshaft at higher rpm's or high valve spring pressures. Edit:  timing design indeed.
EightBit fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Aug 2, 2012 |
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Aug 2, 2012 16:23
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It's a Jeep. You could be working on one in a zero-G environment with padded everything everywhere and still end up with lacerations, burns and smashed fingers anyway. Why fight the inevitable? 
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Aug 2, 2012 16:25
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EightBit posted:Having a chain on both sides of the cam actually does a lot to help keep the cam in-sync with the crankshaft at higher rpm's or high valve spring pressures. Performance at high RPMs or with tough valve springs was never a priority for that engine, and it doesn't have a chain on both ends of each camshaft. The design was based on an OHV engine, so there's a short timing chain that runs from the crank to where an OHV camshaft would be in the middle of the V. Then, on each end of the shaft-with-no-cams, there's a gear and a separate timing chain that runs up to the heads. One bank's chain is at the front of the engine, and the other bank's chain is at the back. Oh, and all the tensioners and chain guides are made of crappy plastic, too. e: have a picture! 
Space Gopher fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Aug 2, 2012 |
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Aug 2, 2012 16:39
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But that way we get to use the same head on both sides of the engine!  
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Aug 2, 2012 17:34
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Attempted burnout or mud?
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Aug 2, 2012 17:44
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Bashing a rock etc is a good possible explanation, too.
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Aug 2, 2012 18:32
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Godholio posted:Attempted burnout or mud? Sounds like the former, according to the source. Only 360hp (and slicks) to do that.
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Aug 2, 2012 18:40
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InitialDave posted:Cars shouldn't have interesting and unexpected characteristics thatcan catch people out, or inherently dangerous design features that have no advantage over safe ones Hey, that's the kind of thinking that killed the British car industry
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Aug 2, 2012 19:07
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IOwnCalculus posted:But that way we get to use the same head on both sides of the engine!  That's insane. And wonderful. And horrible.
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Aug 2, 2012 21:49
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Space Gopher posted:Performance at high RPMs or with tough valve springs was never a priority for that engine, and it doesn't have a chain on both ends of each camshaft. The design was based on an OHV engine, so there's a short timing chain that runs from the crank to where an OHV camshaft would be in the middle of the V. Then, on each end of the shaft-with-no-cams, there's a gear and a separate timing chain that runs up to the heads. One bank's chain is at the front of the engine, and the other bank's chain is at the back. Seriously need to start collecting stuff like this to put on my wall at work. "At least I didn't design something like this".
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Aug 3, 2012 00:02
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What is the balance shaft for and why is it only on the 4x4 version?
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Aug 3, 2012 00:34
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The gently caress? I thought the 2 timing chains on the KA24DE (inline 4) was bad enough... along with the head gasket doubling as the seal between the 2 halves of the timing cover.  The SOHC and DOHC blocks are almost identical on the KA24. The first gear sits where the cam would be on a SOHC head. And yes.. plastic guides that love to break. The timing cover is easy to pull on the RWD version. It's  on the FWD, bad enough that I'll probably wind up pulling the engine when I finally get around to fixing mine.
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Aug 3, 2012 00:56
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some texas redneck posted:along with the head gasket doubling as the seal between the 2 halves of the timing cover.  If I hadn't seen it I'd have accused you of  ...
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Aug 3, 2012 01:09
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Space Gopher posted:Performance at high RPMs or with tough valve springs was never a priority for that engine, and it doesn't have a chain on both ends of each camshaft. The design was based on an OHV engine, so there's a short timing chain that runs from the crank to where an OHV camshaft would be in the middle of the V. Then, on each end of the shaft-with-no-cams, there's a gear and a separate timing chain that runs up to the heads. One bank's chain is at the front of the engine, and the other bank's chain is at the back. You know, I was gonna post about the 4.6, which has 3 chains similarly arranged but all on one end of the motor, but then I went on GIS and I found this:  Apparently it's the 4.2L V8 out of an Audi S4. Wanna know the best part? That's the REAR of the motor. That's the end that faces the firewall. God help you if you ever need to replace a tensioner. Superior German engineering, indeed.
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Aug 3, 2012 01:37
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Fucknag posted:You know, I was gonna post about the 4.6, which has 3 chains similarly arranged but all on one end of the motor, but then I went on GIS and I found this:  Oh gently caress that. gently caress that forever.
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Aug 3, 2012 01:56
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Throatwarbler posted:What is the balance shaft for and why is it only on the 4x4 version? Balance shafts are eccentric weights that cancel out some of the vibration in an engine; they're fairly common on 4 and 6-cylinder motors. I don't know why it's only on the 4x4 version, though; maybe that drivetrain is more sensitive to vibrations? As far as unconventional valvetrain setups go, I'm a big fan of the Toyota slave cam system. It was more a legendary mechanical success than anything, given that it was part of the ubiquitous and nigh-unkillable 4A-FE, but you can't deny that cams spinning in opposite directions is pleasantly funky:  (also for the love of god don't ever search for anything that includes "slave cam" without safesearch)
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Aug 3, 2012 02:00
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Fucknag posted:
I was thinking about buying one of these...but that just looks really, really expensive to fix if something goes wrong.
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Aug 3, 2012 02:06
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Throatwarbler posted:What is the balance shaft for and why is it only on the 4x4 version? Usually the balance shaft is just to make non-balanced engines (so everything but an I6, V12, or crossplane V8) run smoother. But on this particular engine, no one really knows. Seriously. It's not even consistent. 4x4 explorers have it but 4x4 rangers don't. Manual transmission mustangs have it but autos don't. People say they've interchanged them and it seems to make no difference. It's not even in the spot you'd normally put a balance shaft on a V6 (between the banks) so I doubt it could possibly be very effective. I'd imagine it's probably best not to have it because it's just one more chain guide to fail. That audi v8 is a whole other level of though, jesus christ. What is the sprocket at the bottom left? Water pump? Seems like a lot of effort to get that chain down there.
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Aug 3, 2012 02:07
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^^^ These engines are direct injection and have an engine driven fuel pump so that might be one of them. Other DI engines drive the fuel pump off one of the cam sprockets.Fucknag posted:You know, I was gonna post about the 4.6, which has 3 chains similarly arranged but all on one end of the motor, but then I went on GIS and I found this: Eh, this doesn't really look all that bad? So it uses 3 chains to drive 2 heads, all that poo poo seems to be sitting in an oil bath and shouldn't ever need to be touched anyway. It's an Audi so why would anything fai quote:Balance shafts are eccentric weights that cancel out some of the vibration in an engine; they're fairly common on 4 and 6-cylinder motors. I don't know why it's only on the 4x4 version, though; maybe that drivetrain is more sensitive to vibrations? 60* V6s do not need balance shafts. No current 60* V6 has one that I know of. A 90* V6 does use a shaft but it sits in the valley between the 2 heads, where the jackshaft on this thing would be. Throatwarbler fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 02:15
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Space Gopher posted:As far as unconventional valvetrain setups go, I'm a big fan of the Toyota slave cam system. It was more a legendary mechanical success than anything, given that it was part of the ubiquitous and nigh-unkillable 4A-FE, but you can't deny that cams spinning in opposite directions is pleasantly funky: That's unusual? The only DOHC engine I've opened up was a Mazda KLZE which was set up this way and I thought it was normal. It seems like a logical way to do things, at least in the days before VVT. Less belt needed and there's no way the two cams can get out of sync. wolrah fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 02:18
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Fucknag posted:You know, I was gonna post about the 4.6, which has 3 chains similarly arranged but all on one end of the motor, but then I went on GIS and I found this: And I thought powering the 1966 Toronado FWD transmission with a chain was nuts...
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Aug 3, 2012 02:22
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Posted this picture on my friend's Facebook. He just bought one in the spring. His response: Yeah I recognize it, that's the exact picture I use when people ask me about a timing chain service on my car. 3000 in parts plus you have to pull the engine.
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Aug 3, 2012 02:33
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thecobra posted:Posted this picture on my friend's Facebook. He just bought one in the spring. His response: Do the engineers get told to do crazy stuff like this in order to drive up repair costs? I mean it's not inconceivable that there were real packaging reasons to put all this hardware against the firewall but...
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Aug 3, 2012 02:48
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Fucknag posted:
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Aug 3, 2012 02:50
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I've heard some nightmares about Audi designs. Like hoses routed through engine mounts. Looks like I didn't hear wrong. Setting the toe-in on one is always fun. Especially when the tie rod section corrodes itself into one solid piece. But seeing the picture of that engine setup is quite sobering on what "complicated" is really all about. Good lord.
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Aug 3, 2012 03:10
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I think the original Ford Cammer deserves at least an honorable mention in the "ridiculous timing chains" category. I like how they didn't even try to make it fit the shape of the engine. The upper chain was six feet long and, from what I've read, rather prone to failure. But when it worked, it gave half again the RPM and horsepower of the pushrod 427. NASCAR banned it before they even entered one.
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Aug 3, 2012 03:21
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Sponge! posted:
To be fair, I'm usually  most of the day unless I'm looking for a job.
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Aug 3, 2012 04:13
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Longinus00 posted:Do the engineers get told to do crazy stuff like this in order to drive up repair costs? I mean it's not inconceivable that there were real packaging reasons to put all this hardware against the firewall but... My considered opinion on this matter after working on my wife's passat and observing some all around terrible design choices (this is a vehicle that made me tool-throwing angry while trying to change the battery) is that VW only hires the automotive engineers that weren't good enough to work for BMW, Porsche, or Mercedes.
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Aug 3, 2012 05:44
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More of a horrible aerodynamic failure. This is bird strike 18 for my truck.
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Aug 3, 2012 06:35
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Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:I've heard some nightmares about Audi designs. Like hoses routed through engine mounts. Looks like I didn't hear wrong. You are correct. My friend's 97 Audi A4 Quattro wagon with the V6 (iirc) had that. If you look in my posting history I created a thread about it when he got so fed up with trying to fix the damned thing that he literally gave it away. He asked me first, I thought he was joking/wasn't sure I wanted it so I posted a thread here to find out if they were cursed, and by the time I said what the hell, worst case I can get a few hundred at the junkyard, he'd given it to someone else. He really was in a hurry to be rid of that thing. Turns out that no, I didn't want it! I distinctly remember cursing superior german engineering while attempting to replace a rusty steel coolant tube across the front of the motor which I couldn't seem to free from what ended up being a motor mount. I still joke about "service position" (and whether it means lube or kneepads this time around) every time he mentions working on his current Audi.
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Aug 3, 2012 07:58
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thecobra posted:Posted this picture on my friend's Facebook. He just bought one in the spring. His response: Why does a timing chain even need service? Isn't that the whole point of using a chain in an oil bath?
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Aug 3, 2012 16:13
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Oil slows wear, it doesn't prevent it.
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Aug 3, 2012 16:17
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Also, as we alluded to in the discussion earlier, the crazy-shaped guides that route the chain are often made of cheap lovely plastic that breaks. Some engines are notorious for this, like the toyota 22RE, ford 4.0 sohc, nissan KA24DE, nissan VQ40, GM high feature 3.6, VW 2.5L I5 and some VR6 models, just to name a few. Or the tensioners (which are needed because the chain stretches over time) fail. Then the chain gets loose and makes horrible noises and/or jumps time and/or breaks.
lazer_chicken fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Aug 3, 2012 |
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Aug 3, 2012 17:13
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