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GnarlyCharlie4u
Sep 23, 2007

I have an unhealthy obsession with motorcycles.

Proof

Tekne posted:

Watch the videos of the same test with the Touareg and XC70; you'll notice he cuts the turn a lot harder and faster in the Grand Cherokee. There also isn't any recording instrumentation on the steering column when they run these "tests". Finally, Germany's Auto Motor und Sport ran their ISO standard moose test and couldn't destabilize the Jeep with any load even up to maximum weight, which is curious when you combine that with Teknikens Värld inability to produce these results when Chrysler's engineers were present. There could very well be a problem with the vehicle, but I'd be hesitant to believe these results when only TV is producing them. I think we all know that a skilled driver can force a vehicle on to two wheels. That being said, this story isn't clear cut or resolved, and it'll be interesting to see how it plays out as other groups get involved.

I also call bullshit on the tests, however...
even if Moose screwed with the vehicle and/or cut too hard to try and flip it; that doesn't mean the vehicle is still safe. These are professional(?) drivers on a closed course. Who is to say that a soccer mom would have better control or knowledge of the vehicle in a similar situation?
So the results may have been slightly rigged, however I think the average lay-person driver might also be able to reproduce the same problems if driving it improperly.

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Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?
You can flip a Corvette by driving improperly. That's not the point of these tests.

Fayez Butts
Aug 24, 2006

please show me how you can flip a corvette when driving improperly

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.
give me a corvette and I'll do my best :haw:

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.
Megamarm

Fayez Butts posted:

please show me how you can flip a corvette when driving improperly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l6TW6OCpc4
(yeah, yeah, still a Corvette rolling :v: )

BlackMK4 fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Aug 6, 2012

Jonny Nox
Apr 26, 2008




Consumer Reports says that they had handling issues with the CRD (?) powered Grand Cherokee as well, but the V8 one worked fine. Also, a re-flash of the stability control resolved their problem.

It really does look like a software/active suspension issue. It's not body rolling, it's hopping around the lane change. It's weird (and not reproducible outside that facility either).

http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/08/jeep-grand-cherokee-survives-different-european-moose-test.html

You Am I
May 20, 2001

Me @ your poasting

Jonny Nox posted:

Consumer Reports says that they had handling issues with the CRD (?) powered Grand Cherokee
Common Rail Diesel.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

You Am I posted:

Common Rail Diesel.

I wish they had offered the CRD in more Jeeps.

Jonny Nox
Apr 26, 2008




yeah, but is that the one they were testing? Is there even a gasoline V6 available in Europe?

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Jonny Nox posted:

yeah, but is that the one they were testing? Is there even a gasoline V6 available in Europe?

There is, most of the engines they offer in the US are available here. Its the Euro engines that the US doesn't get.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin

Jonny Nox posted:

yeah, but is that the one they were testing? Is there even a gasoline V6 available in Europe?

Consumer Reports is an American thing, they were testing the last generation version which could be had with a diesel.

quote:

I wish they had offered the CRD in more Jeeps.

You could get a diesel Liberty too. I'm not sure but I think most off road types didn't like diesel, it's much heavier than the gas version and offers no advantage. The Ram Powerwagon is gas only for the same reason.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Throatwarbler posted:

You could get a diesel Liberty too. I'm not sure but I think most off road types didn't like diesel, it's much heavier than the gas version and offers no advantage. The Ram Powerwagon is gas only for the same reason.

It offers TONS of advantages.

Throatwarbler
Nov 17, 2008

by vyelkin
Such as?

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Torque, low end power, fuel efficiency, power modifications are easier, and with an automatic transmission its a way better rock crawlers.

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

CommieGIR posted:

Torque, low end power, fuel efficiency, power modifications are easier, and with an automatic transmission its a way better rock crawlers.

I do rock crawling and I prefer a manual. Autos like to creep way too much for my tastes.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

EightBit posted:

I do rock crawling and I prefer a manual. Autos like to creep way too much for my tastes.

I prefer manual as well, but seems like a lot of Jeep guys like the auto for some reason.

Stanyer89
Aug 4, 2012

Don't pass people on lovely Louisiana back roads with pot holes and loose gravel.

Paul Boz_
Dec 21, 2003

Sin City

Stanyer89 posted:

Don't pass people on lovely Louisiana back roads with pot holes and loose gravel.



drat, son. Where was this?

Marvin K. Mooney
Jan 2, 2008

poop ship
destroyer

Tekne posted:

Watch the videos of the same test with the Touareg and XC70; you'll notice he cuts the turn a lot harder and faster in the Grand Cherokee. There also isn't any recording instrumentation on the steering column when they run these "tests".

You can't really tell if they cut it harder in the VW and Volvo since there aren't interior views, and the exterior views only show you exactly what the test results were: two of them cut smoothly, one cuts hard and fails the test. I agree that they need instrumentation and independent analysis but you can't say they are biased against the Jeep just from that footage.

This whole episode just underscores the importance of a MUCH more thorough independent safety rating. There's the NHTSA in America, the NCAP in Europe, and all kids of stuff elsewhere. If there was an international body conducting a very extensive set of safety regs we could be saving money as well as cleaning up this data.


I'm not mad at Chrysler for being less than apologetic. They handled this fine, just as well as you would expect any other company to.

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.
I've never run into a single 4-wheeler/offroader/rock crawler who doesn't dream of building diesel things. Hell, every time I mention fullsize jeeps to anyone, I can basically bet they're going to say they'd love to put a 4BT or 6BT in one.

Some horrible failure:




Guy I know spent a long time asking questions about how to put dana 30 style steering knuckles and hubs/unit bearings onto a high pinion dana 44 front axle housing for his Jeep build. Everyone told him he was a dumbass for doing that, and that he should stay with the dana 44 steering knuckles, spindles, balljoints, etc. He did it anyways.

A few wheeling trips later this happened after a U-joint blew apart.

I should note that this is exactly the same failure I had on the dana 30 in the front of my jeep last fall after a U-joint blew apart in it. This is why people like dana 44s (slightly larger balljoints, same size U-joints) and dana 60s (really big balljoints, much bigger U-joints, or kingpins and much bigger U-joints, which makes it almost impossible for the steering knuckle to separate even if the U-joint blows apart under heavy throttle.)

kastein fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Aug 6, 2012

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

CommieGIR posted:

Torque, low end power, fuel efficiency, power modifications are easier, and with an automatic transmission its a way better rock crawlers.
Also (though less with modern electrically-laden ones), pretty much waterproof.

Lord Gaga
May 9, 2010

Splizwarf posted:

Oil slows wear, it doesn't prevent it.

While I am not sure about timnig chains this is not true in many (most?) applications where oil is actually applying enough force to cause the two parts to never touch or preventing the from touching in other ways.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Lord Gaga posted:

While I am not sure about timnig chains this is not true in many (most?) applications where oil is actually applying enough force to cause the two parts to never touch or preventing the from touching in other ways.

Timing chains are usually just an oil bath, not forced into it.

You Am I
May 20, 2001

Me @ your poasting

CommieGIR posted:

Torque, low end power, fuel efficiency, power modifications are easier, and with an automatic transmission its a way better rock crawlers.

Plus due to the higher compression on diesel motors, they are better at engine braking, therefore easier to crawl downhill without using the brakes

Lowclock
Oct 26, 2005
Really? I thought you needed a jake brake or something to do that with a diesel. Do people add them or do non-semi trucks/cars come with them?

E: Welp idk I've never driven a diesel.

Lowclock fucked around with this message at 07:19 on Aug 6, 2012

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

Lowclock posted:

Really? I thought you needed a jake brake or something to do that with a diesel.
Nope. An exhaust brake is much more effective, but not necessary.

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

You Am I posted:

Plus due to the higher compression on diesel motors, they are better at engine braking, therefore easier to crawl downhill without using the brakes

Not without an exhaust brake (which you would be hard-pressed to find in most consumer level diesels until very recently). Engine braking isn't aided much by compression, as the compressed gas will just push the piston right back down with only slight adiabatic and blowby losses. Gasoline engines can engine brake without an exhaust brake because they have to do work to pull air through the narrow idle circuit/valve. Diesels don't typically have a throttle like gasoline engines.

Crawling down a hill without brakes is all about how low your gears go, not your engine's compression.

e;fb, severely

kastein
Aug 31, 2011

Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.
Transmission design affects it greatly as well - manuals are by default better than most automatic designs, though I've seen autos which disable the overrunning clutches when the shifter is placed into the lowest gear position thus giving good engine braking performance. Still not quite as good as a manual since the torque converter changes things (and it's really not recommended to lock the torque converter at low speed under high torque loads, so you can't just engage the lockup clutch) but it's better than nothing.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.
It's normally very hard to make a direct comparison due to the other differences such as gear ratios, but old Land Rovers have a trump card for this, in that they have the same spec petrol and diesel (and the engines are in fact the same basic unit).

On a Series Land Rover, the 2.25 petrol and diesel have the same transmission etc backing them up, and the diesel has better engine braking. On early coilers, you have 2.5 petrol and diesel (turbo and non), again direct comparison, and again, the diesel has better engine braking.

dissss
Nov 10, 2007

I'm a terrible forums poster with terrible opinions.

Here's a cat fucking a squid.

Throatwarbler posted:

You could get a diesel Liberty too. I'm not sure but I think most off road types didn't like diesel, it's much heavier than the gas version and offers no advantage. The Ram Powerwagon is gas only for the same reason.

Outside of North America I don't think people buy Jeeps to go offroad.

BlackMK4
Aug 23, 2006

wat.
Megamarm

dissss posted:

Outside of North America I don't think people buy Jeeps to go offroad.

Land Cruisers :D

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.
Toyotas are pretty expensive, but people know they're effective - the problem with Jeeps is that they're still a bit of a premium product, and there isn't as much available or at as good a price for modifying them when you compare it to the US.

In the UK, Land Rover is still king, with Suzuki and the other Japanese after that. Jeep is further down the chain, their position helped by cheap XJs being readily available. There was also a big drive toward double-cab pickups thanks to a taxation loophole, and the Mitsubishi L200 probably leads the charge there.

Budget Monty
Jul 25, 2005

Ask me about my torrid love affair with Geico :ese:

D C posted:



The roller on the (new) timing belt tensioner backed off on my A4 a few years ago, this is what you need to do to get access to it.



This is where the missing part was supposed to be.

I have done about 50 timing belt jobs on the Audi's and Passats configured like that. You do NOT need to disassemble to that extent. Who told you that?

EightBit
Jan 7, 2006
I spent money on this line of text just to make the "Stupid Newbie" go away.

InitialDave posted:

It's normally very hard to make a direct comparison due to the other differences such as gear ratios, but old Land Rovers have a trump card for this, in that they have the same spec petrol and diesel (and the engines are in fact the same basic unit).

On a Series Land Rover, the 2.25 petrol and diesel have the same transmission etc backing them up, and the diesel has better engine braking. On early coilers, you have 2.5 petrol and diesel (turbo and non), again direct comparison, and again, the diesel has better engine braking.

There is some fallacious thinking going on here. There's no way that the gasoline engine and the diesel engine are the "same basic unit". That would have to be one seriously overbuilt gasoline engine.

InitialDave
Jun 14, 2007

I Want To Believe.

EightBit posted:

There is some fallacious thinking going on here. There's no way that the gasoline engine and the diesel engine are the "same basic unit". That would have to be one seriously overbuilt gasoline engine.
It's true. The petrol was based on a previous diesel design (from the Series 1) in the first place. They might not be the last word in power or refinement, but they are tough bastards.

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

InitialDave posted:

It's true. The petrol was based on a previous diesel design (from the Series 1) in the first place. They might not be the last word in power or refinement, but they are tough bastards.

Doesn't surprise me, I know some people who will take 2.5l Audi Turbodiesel blocks and use them for petrol racers.

Nuevo
May 23, 2006

:eyepop::shittypop::eyepop::shittypop::eyepop::shittypop::eyepop::shittypop::eyepop::shittypop::eyepop::shittypop::eyepop::shittypop::eyepop::shittypop:
Fun Shoe

CommieGIR posted:

Doesn't surprise me, I know some people who will take 2.5l Audi Turbodiesel blocks and use them for petrol racers.

I assume because you could then force-induction them to the moon?

CommieGIR
Aug 22, 2006

The blue glow is a feature, not a bug


Pillbug

Boat posted:

I assume because you could then force-induction them to the moon?

Pretty much, with a block that thick you are pretty much only limited by your crankshaft, connecting rods, pistons, and how good your headbolts are.

Splizwarf
Jun 15, 2007
It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Lord Gaga posted:

While I am not sure about timnig chains this is not true in many (most?) applications where oil is actually applying enough force to cause the two parts to never touch or preventing the from touching in other ways.

Parts in those applications (like bearings) will still wear at startup due to cold oil's higher viscosity and the time it takes the oil pump to build pressure, it's why we use multi-weight oils and even that's not a perfect solution. Oil does not negate wear, it only reduces it; in some cases to to practically nothing, but everything wears at least a bit.

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Beach Bum
Jan 13, 2010

CommieGIR posted:

Doesn't surprise me, I know some people who will take 2.5l Audi Turbodiesel blocks and use them for petrol racers.

Good God that would be one hell of a racing block.

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