|
Pesky Splinter posted:Admittedly, yes. Their visuals are very pretty. This gets tossed around a lot, but everything I've seen of this game looks really muddy and ugly and unfun to look at. I was also pretty underwhelmed by Enslaved, but I gave up early on because of the awful gameplay. Are there any examples of what actually makes NT's visuals or animation good?
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 03:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 22:27 |
|
|
https://puu.sh/Vj1q Style doesn't mean a thing anymore.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 03:22
|
|
|
Evil Eagle posted:https://puu.sh/Vj1q It's beautiful in its terribleness. Everytime you think this game has hit rock bottom, something else comes and digs even deeper. And everytime we're reassured by NT or Capcom, something like this pops up. Hahaha. Guydoingthis posted:NT Their mocap is normally quite decent...during cutscenes. During gameplay it's about as average looking as any other competent animation. There's a few scenes in Enslaved which were really pretty to look at, really only in the first few levels, one with the red flowers and another with the fish tank, which I really liked. Though, they were about a subtle as we expect, for all the imagery and symbolism of the fish tank.  "LIFE IS FRAGILE YOU GOT THAT YET" as you stand in this vast city ruin, with no other humans in sight. Yeah. Thanks for that NT. I couldn't have worked that out.  It's the kind of cleverness that exists only for the developers to explain it and say "look at how clever we are!"  For DMC, there was an area in the early release materials - some chain thing suspending a platform - which was pretty to look at, and the city itself is kinda nice looking. The thing is though, they're not subtle on lighting very much. Everything is either in a harsh shade of orange, or green, or blue. There's no "natural" lighting. Goddamn Heavenly Sword and Enslaved need an LP. If only to show off how terrible Ninja Theory actually are at at the basics of storytelling and gameplay.* *Well, for Enslaved, anyway, I haven't played HS, but have been told by the thread that the gameplay is terrible, though I haven't had anyone comment on the story. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Aug 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 03:27
|
|
|
Evil Eagle posted:https://puu.sh/Vj1q That's just insulting. Also, where's the stylish text? Cropped off or does it actually just spit out the ranking letters?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 05:25
|
|
|
BobbyBaudoin posted:Why do they keep on talking like their design choices are actually unironicly good, can't they say "we're doing this because its a goofy re-imagining, we know not everyone will like it but in its own we think its pretty good". When was the last time you played DMC4? Yeah it was technically competent and everything a DMC game should be, but that's exactly the problem. DMC became formulaic, people had expectations. It was 1/3 of a game stuffed full of filler and stretched out until it was passable as a full retail release. It's been clear for a while that CAPCOM has suffered major brain drain and just can't sustain the creative effort for a lot of their flagship titles, including DMC and Resident Evil. So this is what we get.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 05:35
|
|
|
As a slight tangent, do you fine ladies and gentlemen remember a little game called Shadows of the Damned? I ask because there are several parallels I can draw between it and DmC. As a bit of a thought exercise, I wanted to figure out why what Shadows did was awesome and why what DmC is doing...isn't. While I can just smugly say "Because Suda51 is amazing and Ninja Theory...isn't " I decided to give both a fair shake. Ostensibly both are set in the Demon World of sorts. Both of these worlds have harsh clashing colours. Shadows' world is dominated by corpses of Paula as well as blood stained tables/lakes/objects and so forth. DmC's world seems to have been built around a grey city that transforms into it's harshly-coloured counterpart. In this place objects break off, twist and contort to become obstacles and hazards. So far so good. Why Suda does it better: His Demon World feels more unnerving. A bit like Megaten Strange Journey, it's a world that's like ours except it's gone gonzo in several ways, making it familiar, but then making you pay for thinking that by introducing alien concepts. Another important point is that his world constantly shifts colour schemes, whereas DmC's seems to be stuck in that <gritty brown> (if the trailers are anything to go by). Suda's world also doesn't shove its messages explicitly into the player's face. It's either subtle (the overarching damsel in distress plot) or so blatant it envelops everything (the city with all those pink sex advertisements). Another point is the back and forth "gently caress you" between Dante and the boss. While Shadows certainly had that (Stinky Crow pretty much said nothing except for gently caress YOU!!! for the entire time we knew him), it worked because the characters thought it was silly and unimaginative. The game also never pretends to be something it isn't, which really works in its favor. DmC plays this completely straight. And that is its main problem and potentially its death sentence. Worse yet, it thinks it's clever while delivering lines you'd find in a parody as witty repartees. Even worse, the developers seem convinced that what they present IS witty and thought provoking. I would also play the poo poo out of DmC if Dante was a badass Spaniard demon hunter.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 05:44
|
|
|
notZaar posted:When was the last time you played DMC4? Yeah it was technically competent and everything a DMC game should be, but that's exactly the problem. DMC became formulaic, people had expectations. It was 1/3 of a game stuffed full of filler and stretched out until it was passable as a full retail release. It's been clear for a while that CAPCOM has suffered major brain drain and just can't sustain the creative effort for a lot of their flagship titles, including DMC and Resident Evil. So this is what we get. I recently went for an all-S rank run on DMD thanks to the Summer Steam Sale, and yeah, DMC4 kicks rear end on a combat level (apart from annoying gimmicks like Chimeras and kiting shadow demons) but was definitely a half-assed effort when it came to filling out the game. After all, the second half of the game is literally backtracking through Nero's route as Dante. It did look good on paper: Ninja Theory could build a new story and aesthetic design with this well-loved combat system as a base. Unfortunately, their cagey attitude when it comes to showing off their take on combat isn't building confidence, and leaks like the "SSS Poison by hitting it repeatedly with the same heavy move" are justifying said lack of confidence. It's like Capcom hasn't learned a single thing from DMC3/4's systems, and just threw it all away. The cherry on top of all this is NT's insufferable attitude regarding what they've done about DmC's story. Sex_Ferguson brought it up: stuff like MGS and CoD are often described as stretching/designing their games to feel like movies, but NT's attitude towards this whole thing is "make our arthouse film about sticking it to the Man, then tack on this game to it". Not only is the story and writing looking like a parody of teenage rebellion taken seriously, they're defending it in a confrontational manner: we don't "get" it. gently caress yeah, thank God we don't, because "getting" it requires you to be in a state of mind that considers yelling "gently caress you" at demons and demon walls saying "gently caress you" to the player to be riveting social commentary. Didn't mean this to sound so negative, but poo poo, they've barely got anything of substance to show for it after all this time. At this point, it doesn't matter if it's in the same continuity or not, it's still an entry in a series known for certain qualities which it fails to reach, and that is disappointing.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 07:03
|
|
|
Evil Eagle posted:https://puu.sh/Vj1q
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 07:14
|
|
|
Evil Eagle posted:https://puu.sh/Vj1q SSS = "Sensational" For. gently caress's. Sake.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 07:19
|
|
|
BlackFrost posted:SSS = "Sensational" DmC Devil May Cry.txt folks
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 08:07
|
|
|
Put me down on the list of people who just want this thing to be released so we can try looking forward to an actual game in the series being made. The constant reminders that Ninja Theory aren't, in fact, very good at making games has gone beyond comedy and into 'gently caress those smug cocks' land. SSS is Sensational? really? really!?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 08:15
|
|
|
I'd like to remind you guys that DMC3's style names were Dope, Crazy, Blast, Alright, Sweet, SShowtime, SSStylish, and DMC4's style names were Deadly, Carnage, Brutal, Atomic, Smokin', Smokin' Style, and my personal favorite Smokin' Sick Style. DmC's SSS is Sensational. Sensational.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 09:02
|
|
|
Occupation posted:"silly and unrealistic" Devil May Cry's story was, how the gameplay was "too hard" Those are pretty valid complaints though, I like the silly story and don't have much problem with normal mode at least but I can totally see why other people would hate both of them.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 11:23
|
|
|
Nikolaos posted:Those are pretty valid complaints though, I like the silly story and don't have much problem with normal mode at least but I can totally see why other people would hate both of them. It's like going to Dark Souls and saying it's too hard. That's the entire point of the drat game. Get better or die. Skill-based difficulty should never be a complaint as opposed to bullshit-based difficulty
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 11:50
|
|
|
Coughing Hobo posted:I'd like to remind you guys that DMC3's style names were Dope, Crazy, Blast, Alright, Sweet, SShowtime, SSStylish, and DMC4's style names were Deadly, Carnage, Brutal, Atomic, Smokin', Smokin' Style, and my personal favorite Smokin' Sick Style. The full list for DmC's is: Dirty, Cruel, Brutal, Anarchic, Savage, SSadistic, SSSensational. Tupperwarez posted:So, is the player move-canceling, or is the animation janky? Seems like he resets really quick. He's actually speeding up the
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 11:53
|
|
|
Rigged Death Trap posted:Skill-based difficulty should never be a complaint as opposed to bullshit-based difficulty True but this is a reboot, it's (theoretically, since this is a bad reboot) a way to attract new players to an infamously hard series and train them up for the harder games. I'd also argue that the skill barriers on normal mode are unreasonable for someone who just picked 3 up at a game store with no previous experience with action games. 3 in particular since that game throws enemies set to the highest difficulty level at you in the 6th mission if you go through the wrong door or want to get Artemis and has no easy mode until you've died a few times on normal.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 12:18
|
|
|
Occupation posted:As a fun mental exercise, I challenge everyone in this thread to literally go anywhere else on the internet and see what they say about this new DmC. I mean it. I think Goons are generally 50/50 on getting it right, and probably less than that in Games, but god-loving-drat-it if this isn't the only sane place of the internet to point out how much Ninja Theory loving sucks and the new reboot loving sucks. I don't know, this thread, their Facebook page, and Youtube comments seem to be little more than constant circlejerking about how bad the game is going to be because of the smallest things. Especially now that goons have moved on from complaining about character designs not being anime enough to being angry about Style names.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 12:42
|
|
the new Dante design is. They'll also leap legions of praise on Enslaved and, generally, the entire back catelog of Ninja Theory as being high-water marks for video game storytelling and gameplay. Especially Enslaved.
|
We are the monsters. How low have we fallen, in our pursuit of Style?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 13:16
|
|
|
New demo up: http://www.twitch.tv/capcomunity/b/328689162 To sum up: * Dante fighting in upside-down city area.  *Demon gauntlet thing - "Eryx"* They coukdn't have been any lazier with the design though. The punching animation looks absolutley loving stupid.  *Rainstorm back. There's a new move too, Inverse-Rainstorm, which does exactly what you think it does. *Game rewards "enviromental kills" - knocking them into pits/lava/etc. *The combat is still so slooooooooooooow *I hope you all like tedious loving platforming. Because there is tonnes.  *New enemy, "The Rage" - catlike thing.  *Gold Orbs returning.  *Apparently a reference to: Wikipedia posted:"In Greek mythology, Eryx was a king of the city of Eryx in Sicily. He was either the son of Poseidon or Aphrodite and King Butes of the Elymian people of Sicily. Eryx was an excellent boxer but died when Heracles beat him in a match." Not-Glen Beck bossfight at Not-Fox. To sum up:  You're fighting the head of the Wizard of Oz. Or Trimagia.  You can jump into his eyes and fight in another location, viewing it from the eyes of a camera, while someone narrates because...social satire. And more pictures and stuff. Oh, and new Vergil will apparently be playable. And this is his backstory. [quote= In DmC Devil May Cry, Vergil Is A Gifted Multi-Millionaire That Hates Demons] Vergil is still Dante’s twin brother in the new series. While Dante was admitted to an orphanage run by demons as a child, Vergil was adopted into a rich family. Highly-gifted, Vergil wrote a security encryption program that made him a multi-millionaire before he was even out of school. Vergil’s parents both suffered at the hands of demons, which is something he intends to take revenge on them for. His mother was killed at their hands while his father has been enslaved by them. He now uses his wealth in order to research and combat demons, and is described as calculating character that makes strategic decisions without letting emotions get in the way. [/quote]  Goddamn, Vergil, you're meant to be a millionaire. Why don't you buy the missing bits of your coat? Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Aug 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 13:22
|
|
|
Have you never seen what a rich person and/or a douchebag wears in real life? That costume and the things like it...are all too real. If fits what they're trying to do, which is fine.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 13:41
|
|
|
New Vergil reminds me of DC Comic's Guy Gardner, but blue.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 13:57
|
|
|
What the gently caress was that? I mean it doesn't look bad, just why does it exist? Actually watching it again trying to get over the whole "what the gently caress is this?" thing it looks alright. A Magical Lamp fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Aug 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 14:10
|
|
|
Alright, some real content courtesy of Pesky. For a change of pace, I guess I'll write some good stuff about what I saw, and what I hope they mean: - I like the weapon flashes when you can initiate pause combos. I always had an inconsistent sense of timing when it came to the gauntlet's alternative combos in DMC3&4, and I always thought a visual indicator would help out in that regard. - Instead of a Style-system, we get multiple weapons that can be accessed mid-fight. The actual chaining seems pretty good, but I hope we get more defensive options than dodge-rolling, jumping + invincible frames, and causing the enemy to flinch before they attack since that's what the Style system brought to DMC. - It still looks slow, but I'm beginning to think it's a consequence of the 30-fps limit and how they made the animations. The transitions between each part of a combo looks jumpy, and I'm not sure if it's because the dude playing sucks or they're not hitting the attack button rhythmically enough. - From the last update: I'm wondering exactly how the "higher style rank = faster attacks" thing works, because if it's the actual animation moving faster in addition to cancelling windows being bigger, the combat might actually have a chance at being as free-flowing as the main series'. - Just like the weapon flashes, I like the enemy tells. There's a lot of visual effects flying around already, but neglecting to show when you're about to get hit would've been a bigger problem than overloading. - If Dante moves faster during high Style ranks, I think it would be fair to let enemies become more aggressive as well, God Hand-style.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 14:20
|
|
|
toasterwarrior posted:- If Dante moves faster during high Style ranks, I think it would be fair to let enemies become more aggressive as well, God Hand-style. I thought I remember them saying that would happen, or at least the same speed boost gets applied to enemies as well.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 14:45
|
|
|
Pesky Splinter posted:There's a few scenes in Enslaved which were really pretty to look at, really only in the first few levels, one with the red flowers and another with the fish tank, which I really liked. Its dumber than you give it credit though from a thematic point. For example, the entire game Trip talks about how the village is a safe, closed system and when you encounter the fish tank she talks about it as a safe, closed system. Both of these things are of course brutally destroyed in front of your eyes by enemies. The game never stops trying to establish that the Bad Guys are Bad because they ruin what safety and survival people have managed to eke out in the wastelands. What is the ending of the game, though? If you guessed the player destroying a safe, closed system of survivors you must work at Ninja Theory because thats exactly what happens. For a game content to bash it into your face its themes it manages to make the hero and the villains equally reprehensible while being completely oblivious to that fact and presenting a completely incoherent central thesis.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 14:50
|
|
|
Eh, that's a bit unfair. One of the primary themes of Enslaved is that Trip believes the isolated system is safe while Monkey's like "don't be ridiculous, who would want that, it's doomed to fail." Complete with the heavyhanded symbolism of THE FISH TANK. Trip continues to believe it up until the point where her own isolated system fails. At the end, there's a reversal where Monkey is tempted by the isolated system (for some reason?) and Trip has finally come around to his way of thinking and rejects it, because ignoring the outside world and sitting in an isolated system only works until something breaks down, which is an inevitably according to the game. The irony of the villains was supposed to be that they were doing the same thing as Trip's people and Monkey was the only one who really saw how wrong both of them were. The bad guys are bad guys because they send a swarm of murderous killbots in order to rescue people for some reason. That's about it. It's a stupid game. The isolated environments are supposed to be flat-out bad things that look good, not actual good things.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 15:22
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:The bad guys are bad guys because they send a swarm of murderous killbots in order to rescue people for some reason. That's about it. It's a stupid game. The isolated environments are supposed to be flat-out bad things that look good, not actual good things. I'd argue that despite the game wanting to make some point about self contained systems being bad none of the systems we witness in game have problems arising from their isolation or closedness. All of them break down because somebody swoops in and blows them up. The initial slave ship, the village, the fish tank, the base, and the villains' lair are all closed and safe systems that only cease working when somebody shows up and blows them to high hell. There is nothing in the game that falls apart because of being untenable and outside of Monkey, who randomly switches motivations when the situation calls for it, nobody really even thinks of that as a possibility.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 15:36
|
|
|
Barudak posted:I'd argue that despite the game wanting to make some point about self contained systems being bad none of the systems we witness in game have problems arising from their isolation or closedness. All of them break down because somebody swoops in and blows them up. The initial slave ship, the village, the fish tank, the base, and the villains' lair are all closed and safe systems that only cease working when somebody shows up and blows them to high hell. There is nothing in the game that falls apart because of being untenable and outside of Monkey, who randomly switches motivations when the situation calls for it, nobody really even thinks of that as a possibility. That's the point. They're really good until some outside force breaks them down. The fish tank survives for years but is shattered in a moment once outside pressure is put upon it. It's not a sustainable situation, just one that can last as long as nothing actually puts pressure on it.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 15:45
|
|
|
It is good that they've put in the enemy tells - otherwise we get DMC2 again, and nobody wants to suffer through that. The whole weapon changing thing isn't so bad either (though I still think the other games handled this more elegantly), but the biggest drawback is going to be having to hold onto the triggers to use it. I wonder what else they'll do for weapons. A whip would be rather pointless considering the whole idea behind the angel/demon thing is a chain/whip thing anyway. So far it's: Human Rebellion Ebony and Ivory Demon Arbiter (axe) Eryx (gauntlets) Angel Osiris (scythe) Assuming Rebellion and the guns don't change, that's five more weapons to come.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 15:49
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:That's the point. They're really good until some outside force breaks them down. The fish tank survives for years but is shattered in a moment once outside pressure is put upon it. It's not a sustainable situation, just one that can last as long as nothing actually puts pressure on it. Right but the problem here is the games only justification against closed systems is "Someone strong can come along and destroy them." So what do the heroes do at the end of the game? Arbitrarily destroy a closed system because they are strong enough to. They know they gain no personal benefit and that they are massively negatively impacting thousands/millions of lives. Then they go ahead and do it anyway because closed systems are bad because outside elements destroy them. Which is what they are. I guess you could make a fatalistic argument that this is intentional. That the heroes understand that if they don't destroy the closed system eventually someone else will and that they are good/knowledgeable enough to improve it but were still left with the conundrum that the heroes somewhat arbitrarily decide to be the problem with the closed system rather than looking for a solution. Not to mention the game doesn't really provide an alternative; there are no roving packs of strong individuals and those in the villains' lair live in a massive hostile desert and we're constantly reminded that people outside systems tend to die off.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 15:53
|
|
|
Yep, that's basically the message of the game. It's incredibly depressing but pretty clearly what Ninja Theory was going for. It's better to struggle-and-die with a chance to succeed than to survive only until some outside force kills you. Which is, of course, why they're perfect for a Devil May Cry game because... something?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 15:59
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Which is, of course, why they're perfect for a Devil May Cry game because... something? Because of their wonderful grasp of combat! 
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:09
|
|
|
Never played Enslaved: Wouldn't it have been better for the 'good guys' to just beat down the villains, since they're strong enough to, and then protect the enclosed systems (again, since they're strong enough to)? There can't be that many people left who just want to kill tons of people for no reason, if the main villains are removed from the picture, can there? Did the villains even have a reason for doing what they were doing?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:09
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Yep, that's basically the message of the game. It's incredibly depressing but pretty clearly what Ninja Theory was going for. It's better to struggle-and-die with a chance to succeed than to survive only until some outside force kills you. Which I don't think is even supported as a concept within the game but I'm sure as hell not going back to play it again to analyse it because thats far more than it deserves. Schubalts posted:Never played Enslaved: The villains want to keep humanity alive in the post apocalypse and let their unending supply of robots protect and maintain the human race inside what is effectively the matrix. Given that a somewhat central aspect of the game is learning to protect other people rather than looking out only for yourself you'd think that'd be the ending but no, gotta screw over closed systems because thats what you do. Pesky Splinter posted:Because of their wonderful grasp of combat! Hey now, the combat in Enslaved was great because it was pathetically simple, had no depth, and could be completely broken and invalidated from the beginning which was a godsend. Heavenly Sword on the other hand was a game of "which button string am I not blocking?" Barudak fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Aug 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:11
|
|
|
[e]: Beaten. IIRC, the robots are meant to be from some previous conflict, the insitgators of which are long since dead. And the other guy is trying to keep a closed system of people inside a matrix-esque device. and uses the robots to protect this closed system he's established. Monkey and Trip kill him and release the people, and then the game ends ambiguously. Barudak posted:Hey now, the combat in Enslaved was great because it was pathetically simple, had no depth, and could be completely broken and invalidated from the beginning which was a godsend. The combat was simple, but the controls were terrible. It was like trying to play in boxing gloves.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:19
|
|
|
Barudak posted:The villains want to keep humanity alive in the post apocalypse and let their unending supply of robots protect and maintain the human race inside what is effectively the matrix. Given that a somewhat central aspect of the game is learning to protect other people rather than looking out only for yourself you'd think that'd be the ending but no, gotta screw over closed systems because thats what you do. So, Monkey and Friends were the real villains?
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:20
|
|
|
Schubalts posted:So, Monkey and Friends were the real villains? It depends on how you view their actions - or rather, the reasons behind their actions. Of course, the real villain is Tameem Antionades, because, jesus loving christ: "[With Enslaved, we're] trying to change the course of gaming in terms of storytelling, with emotionally engaging characters". The guy is a broken record. Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Aug 15, 2012 |
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:23
|
|
|
Schubalts posted:So, Monkey and Friends were the real villains? Depends on how you want to look at it and how much credit you want to give to a team who couldn't design combat or write consistent characters to save their lives. Death of the Programmer would argue of course it doesn't matter how intentional it is but we're still left with a game whose protagonists learn a set of lessons via the most ham-fisted methods possible and then fail to implement them. Its like a really lovely Huckleberry Finn in that regard. Pesky Splinter posted:The combat was simple, but the controls were terrible. It was like trying to play in boxing gloves. There's a reason it was a godsend. I really liked how they included ranged combat except you were so slow and so limited in using it that by about the 3rd fight you'd forget it even existed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:31
|
|
|
Watched the demo. His little groan of frustration made me laugh, because he keeps whiffing on attacks and throwing out a "grah!" As a developer for a video game, getting frustrated at aspects of the combat system is a really good indicator you should take a look at something. But no, who needs a soft lock-on system? 
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 16:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 22:27 |
|
|
quote:Ahahaha oh man I can't stop laughing at this. It's like I'm looking at a bad mash-up of Artemis Fowl and A Series of Unfortunate Events. They're trying so hard to make him look edgy, what with the walk, the army of masked dudes, slowly taking off his bloodied latex glove and so on. But it's all ruined because he still looks like a loving kid. Oh man.
|
|
#
?
Aug 15, 2012 17:30
|
|