Horrible Mechanical Failures: Looks Like the Tin Man's Undies After Taco Tuesday

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Horrible Mechanical Failures: Looks Like the Tin Man's Undies After Taco Tuesday

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Maker Of Shoes: Sep 4, 2006; AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!

I don't get it. Why would he need more? They paid for everything and cushioned it a bit so he came out on top in the hospital and with better equipment. Or is it because suing is 'MERICA as gently caress?

# ? Aug 28, 2012 18:21

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 15:13

SwashedBuckles: Aug 10, 2007; Have at you!

Maker Of Shoes posted:

I don't get it. Why would he need more? They paid for everything and cushioned it a bit so he came out on top in the hospital and with better equipment. Or is it because suing is 'MERICA as gently caress?

Think of the trauma he went through; he'll never be able to shoot again without thinking his weapon is about to blow up in his face. Pain and $uffering and all that

But more or less america

# ? Aug 28, 2012 18:39

Splizwarf: Jun 15, 2007; It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

The legit thing to do is to force them (by lawsuit if necessary) to do a recall of the rest of the heat-treated versions to protect everyone else who bought one.

Why they wouldn't do that voluntarily after paying out for his bills is beyond me, they've already got an admission of guilt on the table then and that's chum in the water for American lawyers.

# ? Aug 28, 2012 18:41

Brigdh: Nov 23, 2007; That's not an oil leak. That's the automatic oil change and chassis protection feature.

Splizwarf posted:

The legit thing to do is to force them (by lawsuit if necessary) to do a recall of the rest of the heat-treated versions to protect everyone else who bought one.

Why they wouldn't do that voluntarily after paying out for his bills is beyond me, they've already got an admission of guilt on the table then and that's chum in the water for American lawyers.

Easy, some accountant figured out the cost of a recall ($X) vs the cost of paying out for the expected number of failures ($Y), and figured out that the recall would be more expensive ($X > $Y).

It happens all the time.

# ? Aug 28, 2012 18:55

kastein: Aug 31, 2011; Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.

Splizwarf posted:

The legit thing to do is to force them (by lawsuit if necessary) to do a recall of the rest of the heat-treated versions to protect everyone else who bought one.

Why they wouldn't do that voluntarily after paying out for his bills is beyond me, they've already got an admission of guilt on the table then and that's chum in the water for American lawyers.

completely agreed.

If it takes a class action lawsuit or publicity, so be it. They shouldn't be allowed to leave metallurgically flawed gun parts out on the market like that.

# ? Aug 28, 2012 19:02

Maker Of Shoes: Sep 4, 2006; AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!

Splizwarf posted:

The legit thing to do is to force them (by lawsuit if necessary) to do a recall of the rest of the heat-treated versions to protect everyone else who bought one.

That's a given but a lawsuit isn't necessary. They should be figuring that out on their own especially these days with social media and all. Exit Strategy is a walking PR nightmare for them if they don't shape up (assuming an NDA wasn't part of his recovery payout).

# ? Aug 28, 2012 19:06

BlackMK4: Aug 23, 2006; wat.; Megamarm

Brigdh posted:

Easy, some accountant figured out the cost of a recall ($X) vs the cost of paying out for the expected number of failures ($Y), and figured out that the recall would be more expensive ($X > $Y).

It happens all the time.

Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of guns in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

# ? Aug 28, 2012 22:58

kastein: Aug 31, 2011; Moderator at http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/forums/and soon to be mod of AI. MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN. Motronic for VP.

I need to watch Fight Club again now. Screw you guys.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 00:00

Nathan Explosion: Aug 14, 2006; A whole new rainbow of pain!

Brigdh posted:

Easy, some accountant figured out the cost of a recall ($X) vs the cost of paying out for the expected number of failures ($Y), and figured out that the recall would be more expensive ($X > $Y).

It happens all the time.

This is the exact logic Ford used with the Pinto and its magical exploding fuel tank. People still remember the Pinto for that to this day.

If the problem with that gun became well know it could be the end of that manufacturer.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 00:06

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Nathan Explosion posted:

This is the exact logic Ford used with the Pinto and its magical exploding fuel tank. People still remember the Pinto for that to this day.

If the problem with that gun became well know it could be the end of that manufacturer.

Yes and no. There are several poo poo AR manufacturers that move from company name to company name to avoid exactly this kind of stigma. Seems to be a successful business model.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 01:44

Exit Strategy: Dec 10, 2010; by sebmojo

Maker Of Shoes posted:

That's a given but a lawsuit isn't necessary. They should be figuring that out on their own especially these days with social media and all. Exit Strategy is a walking PR nightmare for them if they don't shape up (assuming an NDA wasn't part of his recovery payout).

In fact, an NDA was NOT part of my payout. I am free to badmouth ATI as much as I please.

Edit: Also, they DID issue a recall. Turns out ATI had bought its bolts from overstock on a batch made by SIG for the US Army. Ended up with some 250k bolts going back to the factory.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 03:15

Maker Of Shoes: Sep 4, 2006; AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!

Exit Strategy posted:

In fact, an NDA was NOT part of my payout. I am free to badmouth ATI as much as I please.

Edit: Also, they DID issue a recall. Turns out ATI had bought its bolts from overstock on a batch made by SIG for the US Army. Ended up with some 250k bolts going back to the factory.

Win win. Good to hear you came out well, they recalled the bolts and you didn't sign an NDA.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 03:54

otaku69: May 18, 2003

Nathan Explosion posted:

This is the exact logic Ford used with the Pinto and its magical exploding fuel tank. People still remember the Pinto for that to this day.

If the problem with that gun became well know it could be the end of that manufacturer.

but more people died from the same thing in the first gen mustangs

# ? Aug 29, 2012 04:06

otaku69: May 18, 2003

Exit Strategy posted:

In fact, an NDA was NOT part of my payout. I am free to badmouth ATI as much as I please.

Edit: Also, they DID issue a recall. Turns out ATI had bought its bolts from overstock on a batch made by SIG for the US Army. Ended up with some 250k bolts going back to the factory.

I assume ATI said give him whatever he asks for we will just add it to the claim were filing against SIG.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 04:09

Phanatic: Mar 13, 2007; Please don't forget that I am an extremely racist idiot who also has terrible opinions about the Culture series.

Nathan Explosion posted:

This is the exact logic Ford used with the Pinto and its magical exploding fuel tank. People still remember the Pinto for that to this day.

People still remember all sorts of bullshit that didn't happen.

http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/The_Myth_of_the_Ford_Pinto_Case.pdf

quote:

The case of the Ford Pinto, and its alleged tendency to explode in rear-end collisions, provided the occasion for what is universally hailed as our product liability system's finest triumph. Everyone knows that Ford engineers realized the car was defective but decided (in a smoking-gun memo unearthed by trial lawyers) that it would be cheaper to pay off death claims than to change the design. There's just one problem: what "everyone knows" turns out to be false.

Specifically, the calculus in that Ford memo everyone remembers actually dealt with recalling the cars to modify them to comply with hypothetical NHTSA requirements to mitigate fuel fires in the event of *rollover* collisions, not with recalling the car to mitigate rear-end impacts. Even more specifically, the document was addressed to the NHTSA: it was a plea to the government "don't make us do this, it will cost too much" not an internal document saying "We're not going to do this because it costs too much," and the scope of it wasn't limited to Pintos or even to Ford, the costs it tallied were what it expected the entire auto industry would end up having to bear in the event of such a regulation being enacted.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 17:11

lilbeefer: Oct 4, 2004

Can someone explain what part that is and how it exploded to me? Guns are non existent in my country....

# ? Aug 29, 2012 17:11

Exit Strategy: Dec 10, 2010; by sebmojo

Lilbeefer posted:

Can someone explain what part that is and how it exploded to me? Guns are non existent in my country....

In a normal, direct gas impingement AR-15, gas flows from the barrel to inside the bolt carrier, where it pushes the bolt forward and the carrier rearward. Since the two are mechanically coupled, this makes sure the lugs ('gear' portion of the bolt) don't crash against their locking surfaces on the chamber face and get damaged. With a gas piston, there is no such system in place - Gas pushes an operating rod, which smacks into a bearing surface on the carrier. The carrier flies backwards, unlocking the bolt... But crashing the lugs against their bearing surfaces. A heat-treated stainless steel bolt is brittle, and will shatter if struck in this way enough times.

In the case of my rifle, it lost several lugs and didn't chamber the next round correctly. On discharge, the remainder of the lugs sheared off as the out-of-battery round blew out, causing the upper to crack and the disintegrated bolt to blow itself out of the ejection port, into my arm. Pieces of the shattered upper and a single lug wound up embedded in my glasses.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 17:27

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

Lilbeefer posted:

Can someone explain what part that is and how it exploded to me? Guns are non existent in my country....

It's the bolt of a rifle. The part that exploded is the piece that back end of the round is seated on when it is fired (by way of a firing pin in the center of the bolt). The bolt's job is to lock into "battery" and hold all of the force of the burning powder so it's energy is used to propel the bullet through the barrel rather than make the rifle explode in your face.

Edit: it's the light green piece just above center and to the right of the middle of the frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZipq6D6D9k

Motronic fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Aug 29, 2012

# ? Aug 29, 2012 17:29

Fire Storm: Aug 8, 2004; what's the point of life
if there are no sexborgs?

Exit Strategy posted:

Pieces of the shattered upper and a single lug wound up embedded in my glasses.

Got pics of your injuries and safety glasses?

# ? Aug 29, 2012 17:38

Exit Strategy: Dec 10, 2010; by sebmojo

Fire Storm posted:

Got pics of your injuries and safety glasses?

Not immediately shareable, but I'll search through my stuff when I get home and look for 'em.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 17:50

Splizwarf: Jun 15, 2007; It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

Yeah, I am dying to see the glasses. That had to be a high pucker factor.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 17:52

Exit Strategy: Dec 10, 2010; by sebmojo

Splizwarf posted:

Yeah, I am dying to see the glasses. That had to be a high pucker factor.

Oh, they weren't safety glasses, either. They were prescriptions with impact-resistant lenses. Ever have that perfect storm of "I almost died just now" and "I am going to shove the remains of this machine so far up someone's rear end that their breath will smell like Tetra Gun"?

# ? Aug 29, 2012 19:52

0toShifty: Aug 21, 2005; 0 to Stiffy?

I have a not-so-horrible mechanical failue.

Broken valve spring on an ohv Sable.

# ? Aug 29, 2012 20:14

B4Ctom1: Oct 5, 2003; OVERWORKED COCK; Slippery Tilde

Exit Strategy posted:

So, mechanical failures doesn't necessarily mean "cars"?

Alright.

What brand?

I have seen this problem before. Some guys in Iraq asked me about it. They found that usually but not always, a loose barrel nut was at fault. This was their solution not mine. They were stressing the barrel through slings or VFG's. I don't know that I agree with their answer but I thought I would share it, even as pure hyperbole in case it help find a more solidified answer.

# ? Aug 30, 2012 07:15

Exit Strategy: Dec 10, 2010; by sebmojo

B4Ctom1 posted:

What brand?

I have seen this problem before. Some guys in Iraq asked me about it. They found that usually but not always, a loose barrel nut was at fault. This was their solution not mine. They were stressing the barrel through slings or VFG's. I don't know that I agree with their answer but I thought I would share it, even as pure hyperbole in case it help find a more solidified answer.

ATI, and I already posted a thorough response as to why it was determined to have happened. They had an Adams Arms piston system installed and it was crashing the lugs.

Also, can't find my glasses pictures on any of my local storage media, so I've asked my lawyer to email copies back to me.

# ? Aug 30, 2012 14:12

Left Ventricle: Feb 24, 2006; Right aorta

0toShifty posted:

I have a not-so-horrible mechanical failue.

Broken valve spring on an ohv Sable.

How does that happen? Float? I was always under the impression that those Vulcan engines were drat near indestructible.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 02:19

Lord Gaga: May 9, 2010

This whole post is about firearms "engineering" if that is not your cup of tea feel free to skip it.

I just wanna throw it out there that the firearms industry has a reputation for employing poo poo engineers by offering hilariously low pay. Coincidentally a company, possibly Knights Armament but more likely Kel Tec, recently posted this:
http://www.sosemploymentgroup.com/j...dnhub36b2%25260

The average starting salary for a mechanical engineer just graduating with moderate experience at the nearest university is 45-60K.

These geniuses wanna hire a veteran manufacturing engineer with the same experience I have only 10-15 years of it for 50,000. I have the EXACT skill set they're working for and if they said that to me, a person who doesnt even have their degree finished, I wouldnt need to think before turning it down because I have already gotten asked to interview for positions making more.

A few years ago I was lucky enough to have a chat with an engineer at a firearms mfg and he was kind enough to share salary info for several major firearms manufacturers. I will relay what he said below taking out some parts I shouldn't share:

quote:

For my full-time job, I work at [redacted] as a Process Engineer. I have my FFL as a Manufacturer of Firearms, and I do part-time work as a contracting Design Engineer for people in the firearm industry. One of my personal projects, a semi-automatic rifle [redacted], is nearing completion.

Yesterday, I finished an on-site interview with Savage Arms as a design engineer. Hopefully, I will hear something from them later this week.

I started in the firearms industry while attending Purdue University. As an independent project, I studied the effects of [redacted] rifle barrels. Bushmaster and DPMS donated a few barrels for me to test. After completing the project, I kept in contact with [redacted] at DPMS. I graduated in [early 2000s], and started working for DPMS [one year later] as the [redacted] Manager. The crazy thing is that I was (is?) the only engineer that has ever worked for DPMS.

Firearm manufacturers always want to hear about your involvement with firearms. This includes how much you go target shooting and hunting. There are very few people in the U.S. firearm industry who have college degrees in Engineering. The primary reason for this is that most engineers are not paid very well. I left DPMS while making only $34,000 per year. A friend of mine was working at Remington's R&D facility (Elizabethtown, KY), and he was only making $40,000. I was going to interview with Colt this past spring, but their highest paid engineering position was only $50,000 per year.

I responded and he sent an additional very insightful email

quote:

You might be able to start at $45k to $50k in the firearm industry, but you would probably be stuck in New England. Unfortunately, this would be like making $20k to $30k in the Midwest.

You are absolutely correct about many new firearms being crappy for the first production run. Most companies won't spend enough time and resources on thoroughly testing their products before releasing them to the public. Ruger never had recalls when Bill Ruger was alive. Once he died, the three major products that came into production (SR9 pistol, LCP pistol, LCR? revolver) all had recalls. I've been told that Bill Ruger was THE engineer at Ruger, and he didn't share his knowledge with the engineering department. When he died, the company lost a very precious resource.

A lack of proper engineering staff is also why so many parts break. It doesn't take much skill to measure the various dimensions of a part. However, few people know how to properly determine which materials and heat treatments should be applied to the parts.

I have talked to lots of mechanical engineers that haven't been taught how to design parts and assemblies so they can be manufactured. They also don't know why automatic (full or semi) firearms use 8620 steel more often than 4140 steel. You can't see important physical characteristics like low-temperature crack resistance and hardenability just by looking at the tensile or yield strengths of the material.

I'm looking forward to talking to you after your finals are over.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 03:39

Motronic: Nov 6, 2009

As a sport shooter, that's one of the most horrifying things I've ever read.

Yet totally believable to the point that it answers a lot of questions.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 04:11

0toShifty: Aug 21, 2005; 0 to Stiffy?

Left Ventricle posted:

How does that happen? Float? I was always under the impression that those Vulcan engines were drat near indestructible.

I have no clue. This car is a 1999 with 60k on it. As you can see, it's really clean inside. The oil gets changed every 3k.

I used the rope trick to hold the valve up. Replaced the spring. It runs good again. I guess it was just a defect in the metal of the spring itself. That's all I can guess.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 13:58

wilfredmerriweathr: Jul 11, 2005

Lord Gaga posted:

This whole post is about firearms "engineering" if that is not your cup of tea feel free to skip it.

I just wanna throw it out there that the firearms industry has a reputation for employing poo poo engineers by offering hilariously low pay. Coincidentally a company, possibly Knights Armament but more likely Kel Tec, recently posted this:
http://www.sosemploymentgroup.com/j...dnhub36b2%25260

The average starting salary for a mechanical engineer just graduating with moderate experience at the nearest university is 45-60K.

These geniuses wanna hire a veteran manufacturing engineer with the same experience I have only 10-15 years of it for 50,000. I have the EXACT skill set they're working for and if they said that to me, a person who doesnt even have their degree finished, I wouldnt need to think before turning it down because I have already gotten asked to interview for positions making more.

A few years ago I was lucky enough to have a chat with an engineer at a firearms mfg and he was kind enough to share salary info for several major firearms manufacturers. I will relay what he said below taking out some parts I shouldn't share:

I responded and he sent an additional very insightful email

How does this extend to firearms manufacturers in other countries? I have to believe that European manufacturers employ better engineers than we do in the states.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 14:16

Lord Gaga: May 9, 2010

wilfredmerriweathr posted:

How does this extend to firearms manufacturers in other countries? I have to believe that European manufacturers employ better engineers than we do in the states.

I ~want~ to believe that as well.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 15:55

spog: Aug 7, 2004; It's your own bloody fault.

wilfredmerriweathr posted:

How does this extend to firearms manufacturers in other countries? I have to believe that European manufacturers employ better engineers than we do in the states.

I admire your optimism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80

quote:

The SA80 gained an initial poor reputation amongst British Soldiers and Royal Marines as being unreliable and fragile.

...The UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) commissioned the LANDSET Report into the effectiveness of the L85A1 IW & L86A1 LSW.[24] This report criticised the acceptance of the weapon into service. Neither weapon had managed to pass the sand trials and both frequently jammed. The mechanism of both weapons needed to be well lubricated as the weapon became prone to seizure if fired "dry", yet in sandy condition the lubricated weapon became unreliable due to the lubricant attracting sand into the moving parts.

The LANDSET report identified in excess of 50 faults. Most notably the magazine release catch, which could easily be caught on clothing and therefore accidentally release the magazine; the plastic safety plunger which became brittle in cold climates; firing pins that were not up to repeated use and prone to fracture, if used in automatic fire mode. Although this report identified over 50 faults, and some of the rifle's problems were corrected as a result (e.g. the magazine release guard and trigger); these modifications only addressed 7 of these issues and complaints over reliability in service continued.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 17:22

Terrible Robot: Jul 2, 2010; FRIED CHICKEN; Slippery Tilde

British people can't figure out simple things like electrical systems that don't combust as part of their normal operation, what makes you think they can build a rifle?

# ? Aug 31, 2012 17:26

wilfredmerriweathr: Jul 11, 2005

Haha yeah I was thinking more like SIG or something. I mean, the swiss must do it right, right?

# ? Aug 31, 2012 18:57

Splizwarf: Jun 15, 2007; It's like there's a soup can in front of me!

wilfredmerriweathr posted:

Haha yeah I was thinking more like SIG or something. I mean, the swiss must do it right, right?

If you read back, you'll see that the shattered bolt that started this conversation was a repackaged SIG part. :v:

# ? Aug 31, 2012 19:19

Sadi: Jan 18, 2005; SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

wilfredmerriweathr posted:

How does this extend to firearms manufacturers in other countries? I have to believe that European manufacturers employ better engineers than we do in the states.

I worked for FN for a senior design project for a little while. They seemed to have their poo poo together and know what they were doing. Their engineers were pretty good. Also their pay rate seemed pretty ok. Also as a recent engineering graduate, if a company came to me with a job offer like the one above I would tell them to screw off. There are so many good jobs out there right now offering a fresh out of school engineer 5-10k more than that.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 20:12

cakesmith handyman: Jul 22, 2007; Pip-Pip old chap! Last one in is a rotten egg what what.

Terrible Robot posted:

British people can't figure out simple things like electrical systems that don't combust as part of their normal operation, what makes you think they can build a rifle?

Most of our Firearms manufacturers tried their hand at building motorcycles, guess how well that turned out :v:

# ? Aug 31, 2012 22:14

Maker Of Shoes: Sep 4, 2006; AWWWW YISSSSSSSSSS
DIS IS MAH JAM!!!!!!

Cakefool posted:

Most of our Firearms manufacturers tried their hand at building motorcycles, guess how well that turned out

I want a Glock scooter.

NOW.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 22:47

Safety Dance: Sep 10, 2007; Five degrees to starboard!

It would run forever on literally any grade of gasoline, but people would find the distinct shape of the seat divisive.

# ? Aug 31, 2012 23:01

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 15:13

Brigdh: Nov 23, 2007; That's not an oil leak. That's the automatic oil change and chassis protection feature.

Safety Dance posted:

It would run forever on literally any grade of gasoline, but people would find the distinct shape of the seat divisive.

Also it wouldn't have a key, you just turn the handle and it goes

# ? Aug 31, 2012 23:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Horrible Mechanical Failures: Looks Like the Tin Man's Undies After Taco Tuesday

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