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At the end of the Kirby episode it mentions that GCCX will be released in America. Was that in reference to the DVD?
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Sep 11, 2012 15:27
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Gutcruncher posted:But I dont understand. Arino himself said he is God of retro game, and he is famous nationwide. Are you telling me Arino was LYING?!  Mister Chief posted:At the end of the Kirby episode it mentions that GCCX will be released in America. Was that in reference to the DVD? The episode likely premiered right before the Kotaku Debacle happened.
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Sep 11, 2012 15:28
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Corridor posted:So I've been reading The Hunchback of Notre Dame and oh god I'm like 200 pages in, and maybe 50 pages worth of stuff has happened. The rest is Victor Hugo raving on about his enormous boner for achitecture. I always use "Madame Bovary" as the perfect example of why translator notes are a terrible thing. Flaubert, the author of Madame Bovary, was a perfectionist. He would spend hours debating the placement of a comma. So, the text in its original French is an exacting work, painfully constructed and is a masterpiece of the French language. Yet, somehow, they are able to translate it into English without having to throw in random French terms here and there (there may be a few, but they refer to proper titles and names and stuff like that). If Madame Bovary doesn't need translator notes to be understood, then your anime doesn't need notes. I noticed when I was watching Cowboy Bebop last night, in the episode "Ballad of the Fallen Angels," the subtitles has Faye referring to Mao as "Mao-taijin," and underneath in white it says "Sir Mao." I'm just kind of confused as to why they didn't keep it Sir Mao. Is there an implication with "taijin" that would be changed with "sir." Of course, in the first episode, they can't decide on how they want to refer to the dish "bell peppers with beef" in the subtitles. First, it is in English with the Chinese name underneath in white, and then after that, it's either the Chinese name or the English name. An odd choice, I must say.
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Sep 11, 2012 15:58
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Just watch it in English. Problem solved.
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Sep 11, 2012 16:04
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I started playing Persona 3 for the first time a while ago, and as much as I'm enjoying the game and the story, it's super-duper creepy to be referred to as "David-kun" in the text.
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Sep 11, 2012 16:19
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miscellaneous14 posted:I started playing Persona 3 for the first time a while ago, and as much as I'm enjoying the game and the story, it's super-duper creepy to be referred to as "David-kun" in the text. Why?
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Sep 11, 2012 16:20
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Mister Chief posted:Just watch it in English. Problem solved. Excuse me, but what would you rather do? Watch it in English with the voice of some guy who just does a lot of Anime (and the dub is good, mind you), or in Japanese with the voice of Sebastian and the Genie from Aladdin? Yeah. This guy is the Japanese voice for Spike! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dyarodHTW8 And even more impressive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK-JprzQuiU
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Sep 11, 2012 16:33
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Heti posted:Why? It's goofy and unnatural-sounding to the point where it actually bothers me whenever it happens. There's almost no reason for it either, unless you really need full Japanese immersion or something.
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Sep 11, 2012 16:34
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Cemetry Gator posted:Excuse me, but what would you rather do? Watch it in English with the voice of some guy who just does a lot of Anime (and the dub is good, mind you), or in Japanese with the voice of Sebastian and the Genie from Aladdin? Neither of those examples make me think he'd make a good Spike. You complained about several things not present in the dub (which is good) so the solution seems obvious.
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Sep 11, 2012 16:44
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miscellaneous14 posted:It's goofy and unnatural-sounding to the point where it actually bothers me whenever it happens. There's almost no reason for it either, unless you really need full Japanese immersion or something. I'm just not sure I understand the use of "creepy" in this context. Unnatural, sure, but creepy? Anyways, Atlus thought that in the west, P3 and P4 would only appeal to japanophiles so they kind of catered the localization to them.
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Sep 11, 2012 16:54
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Hakkesshu posted:Speaking of which, exactly how popular is GCCX in Japan, anyway? How big is Fuji TV? 'Cause you gotta reckon that getting Arino's picture on the Yamanote line had to be pretty expensive. Fuji TV is one of the giant Tokyo-based TV stations. I think there's like six or seven and they do news, dramas, variety shows, etc.. GGCX is on (one of?) their premium cable channels, so it's probably more obscure.
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Sep 11, 2012 17:03
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I watched the Out of This World episode last night, decent episode. The main draw is being reminded how awesome that game looks. And also Arino being a dick and shooting that arcade owner guy in the hand with a pellet gun.
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Sep 11, 2012 17:06
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miscellaneous14 posted:It's goofy and unnatural-sounding to the point where it actually bothers me whenever it happens. There's almost no reason for it either, unless you really need full Japanese immersion or something. I don't know about you but that's at least part of why I like P3 and P4. It's well translated but it's still obviously set in Japan and I can feel immersed in it. Keeping the Japanese honorifics is silly in something like a TV show or movie is silly but to me it makes sense in a Role Playing Game.
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Sep 11, 2012 17:37
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Awesomonster posted:Is it just me or does it seem like Arino and Watanabe are really good friends? Watanabe is simply cheerful and outgoing and acts like good friends with everyone. I doubt she's actual friends with Arino. He acts just as buddy-buddy with male Takahashi and others but I also don't think they're friends. Here's a semi-relevant segment from the GCCX V book that came out a year ago. You had a shocking debut where you were asked "how much do you like games?" and you said "a normal amount." Inoue: "Back then, I was so afraid of Arino and couldn't speak to him. Though he's completely open these days." Urakawa: "The clothes Inoue is wearing right now were given to him by Arino." (note: Inoue later mentions he wears Arino's hand-me-downs all the time) Inoue: "That's true. Back then, I really hated having to ask 'what would you like for dinner?' right after screwing up on camera. (laughs) When I screw up behind the scenes, I can continue my work without feeling awkward." Now you two get along so well. Inoue: "He'll get mad if you say we get along, so please don't. (laughs)" Toujima: "Do you want to be friends with him? (laughs) I still get nervous talking to him to this day." Inoue: "But you're a step beyond, Toujima." (Former AP) Iida: "I think Toujima is Arino's pet." Toujima: "Ah... well, maybe Arino feels that way. (laughs)" Urakawa: "When we were going to America, he said 'Isn't Toujima coming?' 2-3 times." Toujima: "But Mr. Kan didn't invite me. My role was finished in Cannes. (laughs)" zari-gani fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Sep 11, 2012 |
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Sep 11, 2012 17:55
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Cemetry Gator posted:Yet, somehow, they are able to translate it into English without having to throw in random French terms here and there (there may be a few, but they refer to proper titles and names and stuff like that). If Madame Bovary doesn't need translator notes to be understood, then your anime doesn't need notes. Madam Bovary also presumably had a skilled translator (or even several). Most animes do not. They have some guy who knows some Japanese, knows some English and then just converts from one to the other. Proper translation isn't making sure the words match, it's that the tone and message of the material match. And that's not always easy. That's why I really like watching the SA subs, because they are actually properly translated. It's obvious attention was paid to making sure the sentences make sense in English and it's properly translated instead of just a guy going "Japanese word, japanese word, japanese word -> 'That car is some beef', JOB DONE!"
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Sep 11, 2012 18:07
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Heti posted:Keeping the Japanese honorifics is silly in something like a TV show or movie is silly but to me it makes sense in a Role Playing Game. What about deliberately inserting them to sound cool?  Bioware, there's no way a universal translator can't handle those.
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Sep 11, 2012 18:49
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zari-gani posted:What about deliberately inserting them to sound cool? I actually thought about that one and I always read it as that character using it on purpose to sound cultured or something.
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Sep 11, 2012 18:50
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Mister Chief posted:Neither of those examples make me think he'd make a good Spike. You complained about several things not present in the dub (which is good) so the solution seems obvious. Well, the "taijin" thing was a question. The only complaint was that the subtitles refer to the "bell peppers with beef" thing two different ways. The voices are all pretty good in both versions. And those examples showcase how good a voice actor he is. You'd be surprise at the range that a good voice actor has. Der Shovel posted:Madam Bovary also presumably had a skilled translator (or even several). Most animes do not. They have some guy who knows some Japanese, knows some English and then just converts from one to the other. Proper translation isn't making sure the words match, it's that the tone and message of the material match. And that's not always easy. Well, I think in bad translations, it's very much an adherence to what are the words as opposed to what is being said. Chances are, you Hunchback translator felt that presenting those French words in English would lose the meaning or that they have a certain je-nei-se-qua about them. It can be tough too, because there are a lot of French sayings that work their way into English. And when you deal with ancient languages, that is when poo poo gets fun. There's been holy wars over that! Oh well. Sometimes we just have to accept bad translations. C'est la vie. Oh, it just occurred to me: when was the translation done. I know back in the early and mid 1900s, it was popular to just throw in French words and phrases into English. It gave a facade of culture. In fact, George Orwell actually criticized the practice. Cemetry Gator fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Sep 11, 2012 |
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Sep 11, 2012 19:03
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zari-gani posted:What about deliberately inserting them to sound cool? Holy gently caress is that supposed to be a face. 
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Sep 11, 2012 19:13
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Lizard Bastard posted:Holy gently caress is that supposed to be a face. There's a reason why the  emoticon exists.
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Sep 11, 2012 19:17
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Cemetry Gator posted:Well, I think in bad translations, it's very much an adherence to what are the words as opposed to what is being said. That reminds me of the "go wash your face and try again" line TV-Nihon put in for the Angelique Trois challenge. Sure, it's a funny line when written out literally like that because it sounds like an insulting rejection. But when it came up in the thread here, people either didn't know what it meant or were misinterpreting it. That's problematic, and that's why mistranslations irk me. It communicates the wrong idea. I'm translating that challenge though, so hopefully my subs will clear up a few things.
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Sep 11, 2012 19:46
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That's one of the reasons why literal translations bother me. If you're such a stickler for 1:1 completely accurate, robotic translations, why even translate something in the first place? If your audience also thought it was that important, then they would learn the language themselves. That's why I prefer the term 'localising' since it better conveys that you're not just translating something, but making sure something is understood, both with the language and the culture behind phrasing. I always appreciate it when something is localised in a way that creatively replaces turns of phrase with a similar English phrase that works perfectly. That's why great localisers have to speak and write the language well first, and be a good writer in English second. Or work with a good English writer, at least.
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Sep 11, 2012 20:04
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cat doter posted:That's why I prefer the term 'localising' since it better conveys that you're not just translating something, but making sure something is understood, both with the language and the culture behind phrasing. In the credits for translated stuff there's often "localization" or "adaptation" on top of "translation." SAGCCX definitely leans heavily on the side of localization. It was funny when Kotaku called TV-Nihon "localization masters," since they refuse to localize anything.
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Sep 11, 2012 20:10
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The real underlying problem with forced foreign terminology, at least in fan works, is that it's done not because of artistic license or editorial choice, but because the translator lacks the native linguistic ability to think of anything better. See the earlier thread argument of "Nakama" vs. "Crewmate" as it pertained to One Piece. You can easily say "You hurt my crewmate!" and have it convey direct meaning much more intuitively than "You hurt my nakama!" The reason this isn't done isn't because the fansubber saw the alternative and chose not to use it; It's because the fansubber can't actually come up with any English equivalent word other than the direct dictionary translation of "comrade" or "friend" to use, and neither of those by itself would be a perfect fit for the context. The result is that they insist on using a foreign word with the claim that no proper English equivalent exists, when the fact of the matter is that they just don't try to think of any. In short, "Preservation of flavor" is a crutch for people who write at grade school levels of English and have never heard of a thesaurus. Chances are that the rest of their translation is just as shoddy. Hokuto fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Sep 11, 2012 |
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Sep 11, 2012 20:20
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zari-gani posted:That reminds me of the "go wash your face and try again" line TV-Nihon put in for the Angelique Trois challenge. Sure, it's a funny line when written out literally like that because it sounds like an insulting rejection. But when it came up in the thread here, people either didn't know what it meant or were misinterpreting it. That's problematic, and that's why mistranslations irk me. It communicates the wrong idea. They were ten years too early to try translating that line...
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Sep 11, 2012 20:25
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But "go wash your face and try again" sounds funnier. 
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Sep 11, 2012 20:28
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Bocc Kob posted:But "go wash your face and try again" sounds funnier. Yes, and these are funnier too.  
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Sep 11, 2012 20:31
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I do not find grammatical errors to be inherently humorous. 
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Sep 11, 2012 20:40
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Point being it doesn't matter if it's funnier or not if it's wrong. ETA: Especially wrong in a way that makes viewers misinterpret what a character meant. Like I said way back in the thread, he thought she was kidding when she confessed. He was telling her she's not good enough to pull a fast one on him, not dismissing her because she's beneath him or disgusting or whatever. vvv That can be a good compromise. I'll keep it in mind. zari-gani fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Sep 11, 2012 |
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Sep 11, 2012 20:44
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You could always go with "Wash your face of this shame and try again".
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Sep 11, 2012 20:47
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I'm in the weird position of not particularly disagreeing with any of the points being made about localization, but still enjoying a hyper-literal translation from time to time as a learning experience. Even if it means I have to stop down in the middle of a game of Persona to research what the gently caress "daigaku-imo" means. (And, subsequently, find a recipe because gently caress that looks delicious.) I'm never against translator notes, mostly because I read very quickly and am always hungry for more data. And if said data is available in a purely optional format (read: the Pop-Up Menchi text bubbles from ADV's Excel Saga release), all the better. Not to say there's anything wrong with localizations that manage to find a balance between the two. Anyone playing through Phoenix Wright's going to learn a thing or two about tokusatsu, simply because it's integral to the story, but they aren't going to get beat over the head with it. tl;dr: I never think of translator notes as "necessary," but as a matter of personal preference, I'll rarely-if-ever complain.
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Sep 11, 2012 20:51
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Cemetry Gator posted:I always use "Madame Bovary" as the perfect example of why translator notes are a terrible thing. I think you also have to weigh in the fact that French culture is closer to Anglophone culture than Anglophone culture is to Asian in general. Obviously that doesn't excuse egregious stuff like those subtitles, but sometimes you really do need a translator's note to understand. I once read a manhwa where one page is just a shot of a straw mat outside, no words. To a Korean person this is immediately understandable. In the English edition there was a one line translator's note at the corner that said something to the effect of "criminals at the time were left to die outside on a mat". Obviously you want to make things obvious in the text if you can, but that's not always possible.
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Sep 11, 2012 20:58
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Hokuto posted:The real underlying problem with forced foreign terminology, at least in fan works, is that it's done not because of artistic license or editorial choice, but because the translator lacks the native linguistic ability to think of anything better. Oh dear God, a thesaurus would be the worst thing to give these people. That's how you would end up with: "Oh heartthrob deity, a thesaurus would be the most deficient corporeality to administer to these proletariat." If you give a bad writer a thesaurus, they won't understand the inherent differences in meaning between so-called synonyms and you end up with sentences that are impossible to parse. Given that these guys are lazy, they won't do the research to make the thesaurus a useful tool. I think translators have to accept that the act of translation is both a mechanical process, as in the basic act of taking one word in one language and rendering it as the same word in another, as well as a creative process. Because so much is lost when you reduce it to a mechanical. It is the difference between capturing what a person says and what a person means. That's why when you read two different translations by two good translators, you can find huge differences because they made two different judgments. To this day, the debate ranges on about which translation to use for the Iliad and the Odyssey.
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Sep 11, 2012 20:59
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zari-gani posted:Point being it doesn't matter if it's funnier or not if it's wrong. A few people not understanding you don't take every phrase literally doesn't make it wrong. The meaning of the phrase as is still translates just fine. The pot calling the kettle black does not literally mean some pieces of cookware are having a conversation either. As long as it isn't nonsensical like "o-baka-chan-tachis", it's all just a matter of personal preference.
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Sep 11, 2012 21:19
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The only non-translations I find really enfuriating are when they put a perfectly acceptable translation as a TL note. Why the gently caress would you put a TL note instead of just using the word which you literally just said it means? 
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Sep 11, 2012 21:26
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Bocc Kob posted:The meaning of the phrase as is still translates just fine. But as demonstrated in this thread, it didn't. It was being misinterpreted. Idioms unique to one culture generally shouldn't be translated literally because then problems like this come up. The best solution is to use a cultural equivalent to that figure of speech so it's crystal clear what is being said. Clarity is what's at stake here. There should be no room for doubt. In this case, it's not immediately clear that he was dismissing her attempt at fooling him, not dismissing her as a person, and the latter -- the wrong interpretation -- is what most people see. ETA: I've also seen it being misinterpreted outside this thread. It's not just a few people. ETA2: I'm talking about this way too much so I'll end it here. My position still stands. ETA3: Okay, one more thing that I also brought up in the thread a long time ago: when ShinYaguchi translated Tokimeki Memorial he translated Arino's infamous line to "I've hugged a lot of girls!" and I still feel strongly that it should've been "I've slept with a lot of girls!" Japan uses "to hug someone" the same way we use "to sleep with someone." He wasn't trying to be coy or subtle about it at all. And I've seen a lot of confusion over this line outside this thread. People going "aww that's adorable, Arino's a hug monster" or "no, he didn't mean sex, 'cause it's a kid's show." The problem with keeping a figure of speech too literal and making the audience read between the lines is a lot of people don't read between the lines. It's not about "dumbing things down" for the audience -- it's about using what the audience is more familiar with. zari-gani fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Sep 11, 2012 |
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Sep 11, 2012 21:27
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This was brought up in the thread before, but my "favorite" non-translation is Itadakimasu.
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Sep 11, 2012 21:42
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zari-gani posted:or "no, he didn't mean sex, 'cause it's a kid's show." Outrageously off-topic, but reading this reminded me of something and I didn't want to forget: considering it's time slot, is it safe to say it's not really a kid's show? I just finished a play through of Bionic Commando, but the Japanese title is something like "The Secret Resurrection of Hitler!" For the NA release, they cleaned up all the swastikas and SS thunderbolt things (although they left in the big bad as basically... well, Hitler) and replaced them with eagles or albatrosses or whatever. I bring it up because I think the game itself could at least make for a decent DVD challenge, IF Arino could get a handle on the swinging mechanic. If not, well, he'd never get past Area 6. But despite all that, would the nazi imagery make it a non-starter as a challenge game?
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Sep 11, 2012 22:18
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It's not a kid's show but a lot of kids watch it anyway. Children's media in Japan has quite a lot of questionable content anyway, and that includes super perverted jokes and Nazi imagery. I doubt the Nazi stuff in Bionic Commando would make it inappropriate for a challenge. They did Golgo 13.
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Sep 11, 2012 22:23
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zari-gani is right especially about the hug thing. I watched that episode and made commentary to her to the effect of "hug monster" and I speak Japanese! I still didn't get it with the influence of the subtitle. The thing about stuff like "a hundred years too early" or "wipe your face" or whatnot, is that as people who consume Japanese culture, we're given this sort of memetic understanding of phrases that are commonly used. So people who read a lot of Japanese comics or watch a lot of anime, they know more or less what lovely subtitles mean when they say "Someone who hurts my friends, I'll never forgive them!" or whatever. But people who don't, they read that and don't get the real essence of the meaning, which is, "If you hurt my friends, you'll pay for it." When you translate something, you have to make it understandable to the lowest common denominator and the fact that we're having this argument means that some people are still not understanding it.
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Sep 11, 2012 22:29
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