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Leperflesh posted:Familiarize yourself with California's laws on registering a car bought out of state before you do that, though. Due to our emissions laws, you generally can't buy a new car out of state and register it in CA right away; used cars have more ability to do that but you'll want to know about the emissions testing/rules because all other states are more lenient than CA. Nevada uses CARB rules in Las vegas, so I suspect that any car sold there is 50 state legal. That said, if the car has under 7500mi, check under the hood for the sticker and it will tell you. (Over 7500mi, no one cares as long as it will pass SMOG)
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Sep 20, 2012 07:48
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Ramrod Hotshot posted:I'm trying to figure out my buying strategy. Should I immediately contact dealers, and say "I've got $16,000, what can you do?" or should I go in first, and then talk price, so I can walk out if they don't meet my expectations? NEVER EVER DO THIS HOLY poo poo Steps to buying a (new) car: 1. Figure out what you prioritize in a vehicle. 2. Make a list of cars which meet these criteria. 3. Test drive these cars. 4. Narrow to decide what you actually want. Check invoice pricing, manufacturer incentives etc (edmunds.com is your bff) 5. Figure out exactly what you want in terms of options. Must haves, nice-to-haves, don't want at all. 6. Send a RFQ to all internet sales managers within like 200 miles of where you live. 7. Negotiate the gently caress out of them against each other. If you do anything other than this with a new car you're fuckin it up pretty bad. KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Sep 20, 2012 |
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Sep 20, 2012 13:23
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:NEVER EVER DO THIS HOLY poo poo Do you have any tips for negotiating a used car?
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Sep 20, 2012 15:39
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Proposed Budget: $50,000 New or Used: New Body Style: 2 door How will you be using the car? Daily driver, relatively long commute, some driving around town, no more than 1 passenger 99.9% of the time. No cargo, no kids, no towing. Do you prefer a luxury vehicle with all the gizmos? Not really interested in getting extra gizmos beyond what's standard at the price point. What aspects are most important to you? 1) All wheel drive is mandatory. I went from AWD in my previous two cars to RWD in my current car and I want my AWD back. There is just enough bad weather where I drive to make the RWD piss me off 1-2 times a year, and I'm tired of that poo poo. 2) After that my priorities are about 50/50 performance vs. comfort. My current car is a 2007 350Z, and I'm willing to give up some performance compared to that, but I don't want something that feels like a total dog by comparison. 3) I can live with a relatively high cost of ownership and don't care that much about gas mileage, but reliability is important. So far the main candidates seem to be, in rough order of guessed at suitability: BMW 335i xDrive Infiniti G37x Mercedes-Benz C350 4Motion The Audi A5 and TTS look like they're too slow and the S5 and TTRS break the budget. Acura and Lexus don't offer anything like what I'm looking for. I've heard the Cadillac CTS is a good car and they do offer AWD but the looks really put me off. Does that pretty much do it? Are there any pros or cons that aren't obvious from the spec sheets before I start test driving? Are there any major differences in the real-world usefulness of the different manufacturers' AWD systems?
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Sep 20, 2012 16:05
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PaulAllen posted:Do you have any tips for negotiating a used car? -Look up KBB/Edmunds/Cars.com values for said vehicles. -Start negotiating/offering below those values. -If a dealer seems to be in the ballpark, ask if you can have it checked out by your own mechanic first. If they agree and the mechanic clears it, sign the deal. If they don't agree, you could proceed but do so with caution.
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Sep 20, 2012 16:56
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sean10mm posted:Proposed Budget: $50,000 The C-class coupe isn't available with AWD, the only AWD version is the C300 sedan with 248hp. If you're considering the 335xi then the S5 isn't really breaking your budget either, it's basically about the same price when similarly equipped. It seems the stipulation for 2 doors is a bit excessive and narrows your choices down a lot, but if that's what you want then yeah it's either the BMW or the Infiniti. Maybe a Golf R? If the TTS is too slow for you then it probably is too.
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Sep 20, 2012 17:28
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nm posted:A significant majority of cars a 50-state approved now, but it is worth checking. Yeah basically Here's the basics for buying a new vehicle and then bringing it in. Here's the important stuff for registering a vehicle that was purchased out of state. California's DMV website is actually really well organized, indexed, and helpful. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Sep 20, 2012 |
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Sep 20, 2012 18:21
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Throatwarbler posted:The C-class coupe isn't available with AWD, the only AWD version is the C300 sedan with 248hp. Go to mbusa.com and one of the options for the C350 coupe now is 4Matic. Unless Car & Driver reviewed a non-existent thing? http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-mercedes-benz-c350-4matic-coupe-instrumented-test-review
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Sep 20, 2012 18:27
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PaulAllen posted:Do you have any tips for negotiating a used car? At first: Make sure you test drive the car. Ask for full service history and records and actually review them. Go over the car very carefully - mismatched paint, panel gaps, one headlight newer than the other, etc can be signs of repaired damage. Go on an owner's forum and find common failure points and rust spots; make sure these have been taken care of in your review. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO WALK AWAY FROM A USED CAR. If you know you're interested in that specific car: Always get a PPI. If you don't have a mechanic to do a PPI, make friends with one. Get a Carfax Vehicle history report. Arrange financing, if applicable. When you're negotiating price: Cash-in-hand talks. Have a cash deposit on hand at minimum. Know exactly what you are willing to pay for the car. Check Edmunds, KBB and NADA for reference points. Again, DO NOT BE AFRAID TO WALK AWAY FROM A USED CAR. Use any issues that you know will be coming up - if the car has 86k miles, and the 90k service is large, leverage that.
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Sep 20, 2012 18:49
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sean10mm posted:Go to mbusa.com and one of the options for the C350 coupe now is 4Matic. Oh. I did check on mbusa to be sure but I didn't go into the options. 
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Sep 20, 2012 18:56
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Throatwarbler posted:Oh. I did check on mbusa to be sure but I didn't go into the options. :downsmile: Yeah, it's weird how they don't list it as a separate model like some of the other 4Matic cars. 
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Sep 20, 2012 18:56
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So, I recently found out that my wife and I are going to be having a baby, so I need to trade-in my nearly brand new 2012 Toyota Tacoma for an SUV. From the offers I've been receiving, I'm going to end up upside down, but not by a terrible large amount (around $1,000 at most...may be able to negotiate a little better). I am looking to keep my monthly payment around 300 a month, and have already been approved for 2.64% financing at 72 months through my bank for a used (2.34 new), which is better than what I'm seeing at most dealers. I'd like something new or used with less than 30,000 miles...preferably something 2011 or 2012. So far I've looked at the Hyundai Santa Fe, which I like...but I'm finding it out of my price range. I've also looked at the Kia Sorento, but I'd prefer to not buy a used Kia if possible. Maybe it's my preconceived notions of the brand, but the prices seem high for a Kia. One current option I'm seeing is a 2011 Chevy Equinox with 22,000 miles for around 21,000. I think I could talk them down a little to get it in a range I could afford. When looking at reviews online however, they seem to be almost universally terrible (complaints about power, gas mileage, etc.), even though they are ranked highly on Consumer Reports and Edmunds. A couple questions... 1 - What are the opinions of the Equinox, particularly the 2011 models? 2 - What other options should I be looking at in a similar range. We've looked at the Hyundai Tuscon and the Honda CRV, but both seem limited in storage space, which is something we desire. Thanks for the help!
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Sep 20, 2012 21:44
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Why an SUV for one kid? Don't finance anything that depreciates for 72 months.
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Sep 20, 2012 21:48
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Why an SUV for one kid? My truck is just an access cab without any space for a carseat, so I'll have to get rid of that. The SUV over a car is more a personal preference than anything else. I'm not fond of driving low to the ground after being in trucks/suvs for the past 10+ years. Unfortunately, because I'm upside down in my truck, 72 months is really the only option for something that is still under warranty.
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Sep 20, 2012 21:51
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You are doing the classic mistake of calculating what you can afford based on a monthly payment stretching into the future, instead of a dollar amount. For example: for $300 a month, you could buy a $3000 sedan and be done paying for it in 10 months. That is affordable, and also will leave you with $300 a month more in cash when you suddenly have all the horrible expenses associated with a newborn! Or something in the middle ground where you are buying a thing you can afford with a loan of no more than 48 months. -Driving two adults and an infant does not require an SUV -You can buy a used SUV for a lot less than $20k, just give up on your need to have a car that is only two years old. -A $10k car with $2k saved for the next two years or so of maintenance costs is still $8k less than paying $20k for a car with two years of warranty left on it. Maybe you really can afford a $20k car, but it doesn't seem that way with a budget that can only handle $300 a month for a car payment. 72 months is six years. Your child will be in preschool before you've paid it off.
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Sep 20, 2012 22:22
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People hardly ever pay off their cars. They drive them until they're about even on the loan and then trade them in. I did that for years and now we just lease my wife's (primary family) vehicle. We choose to spend a portion of our disposable income driving a nice family vehicle and historically we've traded in every 2 to 3 years so leasing works well for us. Acrolos, Not sure how you feel about the Ford Escape, but the 2013's are a new body style so the 2008 to 2012 models just took a hit on resale. I would avoid the 2008, and look at anything in the 2009 to 2012 range, your local Ford dealer should have quite a few CPO models to choose from that will work in your price range. Ford is also doing a promo APR on CPO vehicles right now around 1.9%. The Ford Escape isn't a fantastic car, but my wife had a 2009 for a couple years and it was a solid little SUV. We only traded it on for a bigger SUV after our 2nd kid. You should be able to find a XLT trimmed model around 17 or 18K if you spend some time looking.
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Sep 20, 2012 22:50
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skipdogg posted:People hardly ever pay off their cars. They drive them until they're about even on the loan and then trade them in. I did that for years and now we just lease my wife's (primary family) vehicle. We choose to spend a portion of our disposable income driving a nice family vehicle and historically we've traded in every 2 to 3 years so leasing works well for us. That doesn't make it a good idea, especially in a thread that's ostensibly about financial advice
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Sep 20, 2012 23:16
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Why an SUV for one kid? 0% financing excepted
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Sep 20, 2012 23:26
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Grumpwagon posted:That doesn't make it a good idea, especially in a thread that's ostensibly about financial advice To be honest, I was really asking more about what type of car I could get with the limitations that I mentioned. I work in the banking industry and am fairly familiar with the benefits and downfalls of long term loans. I also typically double up my payments, as I make more than enough to afford the 300 per month. At the same time, I like having the option of paying less for a period if my wife or I lost one of our jobs, or if we had unforseen bills. Rather than eating into savings, it's nice to have the option of just paying the normal payment. I work with a 100% model, when I devote no more than 40% to bills, 40% to savings and investments, and 20% for general expenses. I have always been the type to borrow for long terms and pay down the principal as I go along. In the end, it typically evens out in my case (and in most cases, I end up saving money in the long run). With all of that said, I didn't explain that in my original post, so it shouldn't have been expected Acrolos fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Sep 20, 2012 |
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Sep 20, 2012 23:36
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Leperflesh posted:-Driving two adults and an infant does not require an SUV I was the first person to say this for a long time but now that I have one, drat kid seats are big. Problem is that if you like having a hatch instead of a trunk, the midsize wagon is a nearly-zero segment these days so you're either stuck with the biggest of the hatchbacks like my Mazda3, or you're looking at crossovers and SUVs. Said Mazda3 works fine for us around town but whenever we get around to taking a proper roadtrip, I'm going to have to borrow my mom's Trailblazer so that we have room for both ourselves plus the metric ton of stuff.
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Sep 20, 2012 23:42
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I'm moving to open an office in either Greenville, SC or Augusta, GA (leaning Greenville, SC right now) and will be getting a new company car and leaving my Accord back home for a new supervisor. Proposed Budget: ~$35,000 seems to be what we typically spend on new cars New or Used: Either. We essentially run them into the ground or at least use them until they become unreliable. Reselling price is not a factor. Body Style: 4 door SUV How will you be using the car?: This will be a company car used for work as well as my personal vehicle. The Odyssey has been our traveling vehicle of choice for a while, but I don't want a minivan for a personal vehicle. It won't be uncommon to drive 1,000 miles a week with 3 (sometimes 4) people in the car. FWD is fine. The Odysseys we have only have that and the weather we deal with in the Northeast is probably a lot worse than anything I'll see where I'm going. What aspects are most important to you? Order of importance; reliability, interior size, MPG, costs of ownership/maintenance, style Must not have any kind of "run-flat" tire  Must have a spare and an auxiliary/usb port. Shyfted One fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Sep 21, 2012 |
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Sep 21, 2012 02:03
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Do you want a true truck based SUV or is a car based crossover SUV ok with you?
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Sep 21, 2012 03:00
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People who say "don't buy an SUV you won't need it" usually don't have kids.
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Sep 21, 2012 04:25
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skipdogg posted:Do you want a true truck based SUV or is a car based crossover SUV ok with you? Crossover is fine. I'm not going to be hooking up any trailers and the most off-road stuff I'll do is visit some of the state parks in the area.
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Sep 21, 2012 04:32
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Computer Serf fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 8, 2013 |
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Sep 21, 2012 08:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Always get a PPI. If you don't have a mechanic to do a PPI, make friends with one. I can't stress this advice enough. We ended up having a rather unscrupulous dealer try to sell us a car with multiple problems that ran fine on the test drive, appeared to be in decent condition, and had fairly low mileage. Mechanic did the PPI, told us what was up, and the dealer basically told us to go jump in a lake on a lower offer because basically he said someone else will be a sucker at the asking price. Rhyno posted:People who say "don't buy an SUV you won't need it" usually don't have kids. What ever happened to getting wagons? Raxmus fucked around with this message at 09:53 on Sep 21, 2012 |
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Sep 21, 2012 09:48
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Raxmus posted:What ever happened to getting wagons? Later, it turned out you can have kids, and not put your balls in a safety deposit box. 
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Sep 21, 2012 13:52
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Costello Jello posted:Later, it turned out you can have kids, and not put your balls in a safety deposit box. I may be way off base here, but the vast majority of "car guys" I know would much rather drive a wagon or gigantic sedan than a crossover. Heck, I wish the Dodge Magnum was still around. I really wish that Audi and BMW weren't the only remaining wagon options in the US. What am I missing. The Outback?
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Sep 21, 2012 15:25
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Raxmus posted:What ever happened to getting wagons? What wagons? You've got small hatchbacks, which 'work' - if my wife was taller, though, it wouldn't because the only way the car seat fits is behind the passenger seat with it moved forward. If you were to buy a new car, your options for wagons are pretty limited. A quick search on KBB.com for 'wagon' includes a lot of cars better described as hatchbacks or crossovers, rather than proper larger wagons (Audi A3, Kia Soul, Subaru Impreza, Dodge Caliber, Scion xB, Nissan cube, Mini Countryman, etc). So if you want a new actual wagon, your options are pretty much the CTS wagon, the C-Max, the E-class wagon, and the TSX wagon. Station wagon turned into a dirty word once the minivan showed up. None of the big three make an honest-to-god wagon on a large car platform, and the last one to do so in the US at least was Dodge with the short-lived and poorly-selling Magnum. The Germans bring us fewer and fewer of their wagon variants every year, and even Volvo stopped selling a straight-up wagon; closest thing is the XC70. Finding any of the above cars at a dealer is going to be hard as hell, which means you're probably going to have to order it. The C-Max might be the exception, but since it's also built on the same platform as the Focus I have a hard time including it in the list versus shuffling it off with the Mazda5, just minus the sliding doors. I'm convinced the hatchback is one of the greatest things to happen to the car, but if I ever have a second kid - it's very likely that the vehicle I purchase then will be a crossover just because that's now the most 'compact' option for moving two adults, at least two kids, and their things.
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Sep 21, 2012 15:53
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What part of the XC70 isn't a wagon anymore?
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Sep 21, 2012 15:56
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Splizwarf posted:What part of the XC70 isn't a wagon anymore? Okay, I should look this up since I haven't paid much attention to the XC70 since the second generation:  Oh. But after actually clicking on it, despite them trying their best to call it a crossover, it does still look like a wagon, just with a bit too much ride height and grey plastic. I want a V70 goddamnit! Edit: As far as I can tell, wagon only shows up in the text that Google has indexed, and not on their actual site. First "thing to know" is some offroad hill descent poo poo.
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Sep 21, 2012 16:01
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IOwnCalculus posted:But after actually clicking on it, despite them trying their best to call it a crossover, it does still look like a wagon, just with a bit too much ride height and grey plastic. I want a V70 goddamnit! This is exactly how I feel as well. I think the defining line between crossover and wagon is the seating position, I really prefer to feel like I am sitting in a car rather than on top of it. However, this seems to be exactly the opposite of what the car-buying public wants. I've seen most fresh graduates who don't care about cars other than price and comfort get the tallest crossovers they can.
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Sep 21, 2012 16:15
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I will say that if you don't need a shitton of space but a small hatchback isn't your thing, I was really impressed by the A3 I testdrove and it was too big for me, so YMMV. I have no idea how much room a kid needs.
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Sep 21, 2012 17:31
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Shyfted One posted:I'm moving to open an office in either Greenville, SC or Augusta, GA (leaning Greenville, SC right now) and will be getting a new company car and leaving my Accord back home for a new supervisor. Putting myself in your shoes... I'm leaning towards car based crossovers for you. Since you spend so much time in the car I would personally value quiet ride, nice interior, and creature comforts pretty high on my list. Cars I would consider if I were in your position: - Ford Edge. Nicely trimmed out SEL models should hit right at 35K, could probably grab a base limited after negotiations for 35K as well. I'm a big fan of Ford vehicles lately. To the best of my current knowledge the 3.5L V6 and the transmission used in this car are super reliable and should go to 150K easily with only routine maintenance. - Acura RDX. Might be too small, hits the top of your price range. Supposedly a fun sporty smaller SUV. -Toyota Highlander or Toyota RAV4. Toyota makes great vehicles, I would check each one out and see if it suits your needs. A Limited Highlander will be out of your price range, but you should be able to get one nicely equipped for 35K. -Buick Enclave. I'm not loving its sister vehicles the Traverse or Acadia, but the Buick has some differences that makes it a comfy road cruiser. Might be too big for you though. This car was my 2nd choice after we bought a 2012 Explorer for the family. Cars that fall into your wish list category but I probably wouldn't recommend. -Mazda CX7/CX9 - Fun SUV's and pretty solid from what I understand, but you would have to drive them. Might not be something you're interested in driving 1,000 miles a week in. -Nissan Murano - More research needed. My mom had one and the CVT was absolute trash, might have been fixed by now though. She fought with Nissan forever about a known issue with the early CVT. -Hyundai crossovers. Probably really reliable, but might be lacking in creature comforts when you're spending that much time in the car. The 2013 Santa Fe is all new though, I personally don't know enough about them though. -Ford Explorer/Ford Flex both capable cars, probably too big for what you want and the Flex has very subjective styling that is usually a love/hate thing. -Honda Pilot - I feel other SUV's do a better job at almost everything than the Honda Pilot. It's a solid car but other cars do things better. Dodge Anything - I can't really recommend anything Dodge these days. they're getting better but I don't think their products are compelling when compared to other manufacturers (exception of course for SRT-8 vehicles).
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Sep 21, 2012 17:45
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Falcon2001 posted:I will say that if you don't need a shitton of space but a small hatchback isn't your thing, I was really impressed by the A3 I testdrove and it was too big for me, so YMMV. I have no idea how much room a kid needs. Looking online, the A3's interior is within an inch or so of the Mazda3's in almost every dimension, and externally it's wider but shorter in length. So I'd put it in the same category - it'll work, and it would probably work better with older kids in boosters than it would with newborns / toddlers in rear-facing seats, but unless you're short, two kids would be very uncomfortable. To add to skipdogg's post - maybe the Mazda CX5? It's actually the same size inside as the CX7 but is smaller, lighter, better to drive, better mileage, etc - it's why the CX7 is going away here. I think I'd probably look at something a bit bigger for 3/4 adults, though.
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Sep 21, 2012 18:15
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I realize that I don't have kids and therefore my opinion is invalid. I will mouth off about it anyway, just this once. The SUV is largely an invention of the early 1990s. There were of course enclosed trucks before that (the Bronco comes to mind, among others) but in the late 80s/early 90s we started to see what I called at the time "luxury trucks": a vanlike interior on a truck frame with luxury appointments and (usually) four wheel drive. They appealed to people who see themselves driving over rugged backwoods trails in their manly vehicle, but really like leather bucket seats, fancy aircon settings, a forgiving suspension, and the ability to comfortably seat a wife and three kids and a dog along with a $400 trip to Costco. However, children existed before the invention and aggressive popularization of the SUV. They were transported in regular cars (especially midsize sedans), wagons, and minivans. All three of these vehicle classes still exist, as well as SUVs, crossovers, and hatchbacks. An SUV can of course be a valid choice. But you don't need four wheel drive to transport a child! Rugged offroad capabilities are not a requirement for child safety seats to fit in your car. Wagons have become less popular, that's true. But there are still many minivans, some of which are packed with family features that are much more convenient than those of an SUV (especially motorized sliding doors on both sides that you can open with a keyfob). There are still hatchbacks, and yes, a child safety seat fits just fine in a Golf (I know because I have personally transported two nephews in my '05 golf without issue). And kids fit just fine in a midsize or fullsize sedan. They really do! Countless American families manage it, not to mention billions of people worldwide; the vast majority of other countries do not indulge in the American love affair with the SUV, although of course they're available everywhere. So OK, yes, by all means think about SUVs, if that's what you want to have. But don't just blankly declare that you must get an SUV because, welp, kid's on the way so that's the only option! Get an SUV because you want a tough rugged offroad vehicle with big tires and a V8, but you also want seating for seven and a liftback and I don't know cupholders or something. A minivan won't do because you have testicles, and a wagon won't do because there's only four or five being sold and you hate them all. Go for it, it doesn't bother me. But I grew up in a family of five and a family of six (joint custody) and we all fit in (variably) a Scirocco, a Citation X-11, a Taurus SHO, a Dodge Ram van, a Peugeot wagon, a Citroen wagon, and a Dodge Caravan. Child seats may be slightly larger today, but you can in fact wedge one into the back of a Fiesta, nevermind a much larger car like (say) a Prius, which has plenty of room for a family of four. It's about compromises, I guess. What's important to you in a car? If you need a single family vehicle that can also haul a huge boat and drive up snowy mountain roads, I'd say an SUV is a good choice. If you just need room, Mazda 5, Honda Odyssey, Toyota Sienna, Chrysler Town & Country, Nissan Quest, Ford Flex, Subaru Outback, all are reasonable new-vehicle options. On the used market there's a lot more.
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Sep 21, 2012 20:43
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Wagons will always be awesome. In the days before SUVS as we now know them my parents had a fourth child and promptly purchased one of these. Seating for TEN motherfuckers.
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Sep 21, 2012 20:52
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IOwnCalculus posted:Okay, I should look this up since I haven't paid much attention to the XC70 since the second generation: Don't forget the Jetta SportWagen which is actually pretty goddamn good.
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Sep 21, 2012 21:14
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Leperflesh posted:So OK, yes, by all means think about SUVs, if that's what you want to have. But don't just blankly declare that you must get an SUV because, welp, kid's on the way so that's the only option! Get an SUV because you want a tough rugged offroad vehicle with big tires and a V8, but you also want seating for seven and a liftback and I don't know cupholders or something. A minivan won't do because you have testicles, and a wagon won't do because there's only four or five being sold and you hate them all. Go for it, it doesn't bother me. Many of the SUVs and crossovers now are relatively inexpensive, though. Minivans have gotten extremely expensive new, and depreciate gigantic amounts. The family hauler crossover doesn't have a V8 engine and is FWD, but definitely can't be called a minivan, wagon, or hatchback. If you are an average Joe who wants to buy a car for family stuff, is unwilling to pay more than $25k but wants a new car for financing reasons, warranty, or just pride, your options are crossover SUV family haulers or the Subaru Outback. All of the station wagons on the market besides the Outback are very expensive, and hard to find on the used market because of how slow they sell. If you are willing to go used, you have a million Explorers and other decently nice SUVs for low prices. It's a feedback loop that makes SUVs the most convenient and inexpensive option for families because most middle-class families use SUVs for kid-hauling. The highest volume "SUVs" nowadays are FWD crossovers that are almost competitive on fuel economy with the cars they platform-share with. Edit: Good call on the Jetta SportWagon. I didn't know that existed, and might be looking for one of those when I have kids. I'm assuming that VW has figured out how to build a window regulator by now.
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Sep 21, 2012 21:17
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Leperflesh posted::stuff: I for the most part agree with you, I really pushed my wife towards a Sienna or Odyssey but she 'wasn't going to drive no drat mini van'.
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Sep 21, 2012 21:43
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