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Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

quote:

Operation Elveden: DCI April Casburn pleads not guilty

One of Scotland Yard's most senior counter-terrorism officers has pleaded not guilty to charges of misconduct in public office, after allegedly offering to provide the News of the World with information about a police inquiry into phone hacking at the paper.

Detective chief inspector April Casburn, who works in specialist operations at the Metropolitan police, is accused of contacting the now defunct tabloid newspaper on 11 September, 2010.

It is alleged that Casburn "wilfully misconducted herself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in that office".

Casburn, 53, of Chelmsford, appeared at a plea hearing before Mr Justice Fulford at the Old Bailey on Friday morning and spoke only to confirm her name and to plead not guilty to the charges read out in court. She has been released on unconditional bail.

She is the former head of the National Terrorist Financial Investigation Unit, which supports some of the most sensitive police inquiries.

It is alleged that Casburn contacted the News of the World and offered the paper information about a Scotland Yard inquiry, Operation Varec, into whether the investigation into phone hacking should be reopened.

"The particulars are that on 11 September 2010, April Casburn, being a police constable, and acting as such, without reasonable excuse or justification, wilfully misconducted herself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in that office. This charge relates to an allegation that DCI Casburn contacted the News of the World newspaper and offered to provide information," the court heard.

Casburn was charged after the Crown Prosecution Service examined a file sent to them by officers on Operation Elveden investigating alleged inappropriate payments by journalists to police and other public servants.

This means a lovely trial where all the dirty laundry gets aired.

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Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

The Independent is reporting tomorrow that the Milly Dowler report is getting shelved until 2014, which gives Craig Denholm, who the report would crucify, plenty of time to retire.

Plasmafountain
Jun 17, 2008

The gently caress!? How on earth are they justifying that?

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Zero Gravitas posted:

The gently caress!? How on earth are they justifying that?

Probably because the various trials of the NotW lot takes place in late 2013, and the report would like prejudice the trials. I was told this might happen a while back, but this confirms it, really fucks me off.

Munin
Nov 14, 2004


The evidence is being shared though, right?

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

UNF

Wrestlepig
Feb 25, 2011

my mum says im cool

Toilet Rascal
Holy balls that's big.

spamman
Jul 11, 2002

Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...
That's pretty great. Think this is trivial enough for the British media to run with? Like Horse-gate?

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Here we go

quote:

Cameron's horseplay texts with Rebekah Brooks: Intimate messages from PM reveal he likes his 'fast, unpredictable ride'

New details of intimate texts exchanged between David Cameron and disgraced media boss Rebekah Brooks have been obtained by The Mail on Sunday.

In one message, the Prime Minister thanks the former News International chief for letting him ride one of her family's horses, saying it was 'fast, unpredictable and hard to control but fun'.

In another, a gushing Mrs Brooks tells Mr Cameron that she felt so emotional listening to his Tory conference speech she 'cried twice', adding: 'Will love "working together".'

The messages, with their horseplay tone, are part of a cache of texts and emails handed over to Lord Justice Leveson's inquiry into media ethics by Downing Street and Mrs Brooks. Only a very small number of the messages have so far been made public, leading to claims of a cover-up by No 10 and the inquiry.

A furious Mr Cameron rejected a Commons demand by Labour MP Chris Bryant two weeks ago to disclose all the texts and emails exchanged with Mrs Brooks, the former chief executive of Rupert Murdoch's News International, which is at the centre of the phone hacking scandal.

Her husband, racehorse trainer Charlie Brooks, is an Old Etonian chum of the Prime Minister.

Mr Bryant suggested Mr Cameron's refusal was because the messages were 'too salacious and embarrassing for you'.

He rounded on the Prime Minister: 'When the truth comes out, you won't be smiling.'

When livid Mr Cameron refused to reply, Mr Bryant, himself a phone hacking victim, accused the Prime Minister of a 'hissy fit'.

To add to the intrigue, Mr Bryant claims to have had contact with a No 10 'mole' involved in compiling Mr Cameron's texts and emails, whom the MP says has confirmed their 'salacious' nature.

The Mail on Sunday obtained details of two embarrassing texts exchanged between Mr Cameron and Mrs Brooks, who awaits trial next year on charges of phone hacking and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

Both texts were sent in October 2009, shortly after Mrs Brooks left her job as editor of The Sun and became chief executive of News International, which owns the paper.

In one, Mr Cameron writes: 'The horse CB [Charlie Brooks] put me on. Fast, unpredictable and hard to control but fun.' He signed off 'DC.'

In another, sent after his speech to the Tory conference, Mrs Brooks said: 'Brilliant speech. I cried twice. Will love “working together.” '

They shed further light on the extraordinarily close relationship between Mr Cameron and Mrs Brooks, both members of the so-called 'Chipping Norton set' based around their Oxfordshire homes.

Mrs Brooks told the Leveson Inquiry earlier this year that Mr Cameron signed some of his missives to her 'LOL' – until she told him it meant 'Laugh Out Loud,' not 'Lots Of Love'.

The light-hearted tone of Mr Cameron's leaked text echoes the way he reportedly congratulated Mr Brooks when he started his relationship with Mrs Brooks, saying: 'You'd better not mess this one up, Charlie. It's the most important ride of your life.'

Today's fresh disclosures are bound to lead to further Labour demands that all messages between the pair are made public so the true nature of their relationship can be seen.

Mr Cameron and Mrs Brooks met 22 times in a six-year period, an average of once every three months. Mrs Brooks said that at the height of the phone hacking scandal he sent her a morale-boosting 'keep your head up' message, and expressed his regret he could not be more loyal to her in public.

Mr Cameron has gone out of his way to play down his connection with 44-year-old Mrs Brooks.

He was caught out when it was revealed he had ridden a retired police horse, Raisa, lent to Mrs Brooks by the Metropolitan Police.

The disclosure came amid claims that News International paid backhanders to police while pressuring them not to investigate phone-hacking. The Prime Minister spent days trying to deny having ridden Raisa, but eventually admitted it and was forced to make a grovelling apology – in the middle of an EU summit – for trying to conceal the fact.

It seems unlikely Mr Cameron was referring to Raisa in the newly leaked text, as the horse was 22 years old when lent to Mrs Brooks by the Metropolitan Police in 2008 and would have been put down otherwise. The animal is now dead.

The 'horsegate' saga was not the first time Mr Cameron had tried to cover up his horse-riding exploits with the Brooks.

The Mail on Sunday was told as far back as 2010 that he had been riding with Mr Brooks.

The Prime Minister's then head of communications, Andy Coulson, issued a flat denial and this newspaper dropped the story.

Mr Coulson, who had succeeded Mrs Brooks as editor of the News Of The World before being appointed by Mr Cameron, was forced to quit No 10 in January 2011 over the phone hacking scandal. He now faces criminal charges, too.

It is believed the Leveson Inquiry also has unpublished texts and emails between Mr Cameron and Mr Coulson. Lord Justice Leveson ordered Mr Cameron and Mrs Brooks to send a vast amount of correspondence, including emails and texts, to the inquiry, but only a small number were published.

The inquiry's lead QC, Robert Jay, said he would only use 'relevant' texts and emails.

The new leaked texts are believed to have been supplied to the inquiry by Mrs Brooks.

Among the texts disclosed during the inquiry was one sent by Mrs Brooks to Mr Cameron on the eve of his Tory conference speech in October 2009.

In it, she gushed: 'I am so rooting for you tomorrow and not just as a personal friend but because professionally we're definitely in this together.'

Referring to another issue, she said: 'Let's discuss over country supper soon.' It concluded, excruciatingly, 'Speech of your life? Yes he Cam!'

Crucially, the first line of the text, said to be 'humorous', was not read out on the grounds it was 'not relevant'. The two texts published today by The Mail on Sunday were not revealed either.

Mrs Brooks's 'I cried twice' text, was sent immediately after the speech, in which Mr Cameron spoke movingly of the death of his disabled son, Ivan.

The Prime Minister's text about riding one of her husband's 'fast, uncontrollable' horses was in the same month.

A No 10 spokesman said: 'The PM has always been happy to comply with whatever Lord Justice Leveson has asked of him.'

An insider said: 'These new texts are of no great significance.'

A spokesman for Lord Justice Leveson said: 'We have no comment.' A well-placed inquiry source added: 'Only communications deemed relevant will be published.'

Mrs Brooks declined to comment.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...
Are these actually salacious, or just somewhat embarrassing?

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Zephro posted:

Are these actually salacious, or just somewhat embarrassing?

I think that rather depends on how the rest of the media spins it, and Chris Bryant MP has been tweeting the following

quote:

I think the PM hasn't quite been straight with us.
These new texts are the tip of an iceberg. I've written to lord justice leveson ...
Worth ppointing out leveson hasn't seen any of this.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...
I mean basically, from "salacious", I would assume they were having an affair. I don't get that vibe from what's been quoted so far.

spamman
Jul 11, 2002

Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

Zephro posted:

I mean basically, from "salacious", I would assume they were having an affair. I don't get that vibe from what's been quoted so far.

Yeah, that's because these aren't the messages that Bryant is referring to. The Mail are publishing SMSs that were given to the Leveson inquiry that weren't published at the time because they weren't deemed relevant.

Bryant is talking about messages that allegedly weren't even handed over to the inquiry.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...
Oh OK, I'm getting confused.

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

spamman posted:

Yeah, that's because these aren't the messages that Bryant is referring to. The Mail are publishing SMSs that were given to the Leveson inquiry that weren't published at the time because they weren't deemed relevant.

Bryant is talking about messages that allegedly weren't even handed over to the inquiry.

And seeing Cameron claimed he handed all his texts to the inquiry and Jay selected the relevant ones it suggests these new ones are coming from Brooks perhaps.

BogDew
Jun 14, 2006

E:\FILES>quickfli clown.fli
Did you claim your free sparklers to celebrate?

spamman
Jul 11, 2002

Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

Zephro posted:

Oh OK, I'm getting confused.

Actually in re-reading that article I might be too.

Plasmafountain
Jun 17, 2008

Does anyone know who wins the "called it!" stakes if it comes out cameron/brooks had an affair? I think I said something in the original thread but I cant remember - someone else might have done that when we were throwing out "This poo poo could go anywhere, even <xyz>" scenarios.

Hong XiuQuan
Feb 19, 2008

"Without justice for the Palestinians there will be no peace in the Middle East."

Zero Gravitas posted:

Does anyone know who wins the "called it!" stakes if it comes out cameron/brooks had an affair? I think I said something in the original thread but I cant remember - someone else might have done that when we were throwing out "This poo poo could go anywhere, even <xyz>" scenarios.

That would be brilliant. Brooken Britain.

StarkingBarfish
Jun 25, 2006

Novus Ordo Seclorum

Zero Gravitas posted:

Does anyone know who wins the "called it!" stakes if it comes out cameron/brooks had an affair? I think I said something in the original thread but I cant remember - someone else might have done that when we were throwing out "This poo poo could go anywhere, even <xyz>" scenarios.

Pretty sure there was some revolting fanfic in this thread regarding Brooks, Cameron and the Horse.

I don't think they had an affair. It sounds to me like Cameron was cosying up to a powerful media contact in a horrendously sleazy and inappropriate way, but it's more like a "bond and moneypenny" kind of thing (if bond was a horribly uncharismatic poo poo and moneypenny was a horribly uncharismatic poo poo).

Banano
Jan 10, 2005
Soiled Meat

The Daily Mail posted:

The light-hearted tone of Mr Cameron's leaked text echoes the way he reportedly congratulated Mr Brooks when he started his relationship with Mrs Brooks, saying: 'You'd better not mess this one up, Charlie. It's the most important ride of your life.'

Sounds like the banal sort of poo poo a character in a Jeffrey Archer novel would say.

DaWolfey
Oct 25, 2003

College Slice
That Mail article is terrible.
We already knew about the LOL, "yes we cam!" and the "working together" lines.
To use the word horseplay, clearly meant to be interpreted as "DID THEY HAVE AN AFFAIR!? HORSEPLAY, YOU KNOW - SEX" and with the "fast unpredictable ride" line it's trying to get you to wonder if they had an affair or if their relationship was more than just friends.

Pathetic, can we shut down the Mail forever for that misleading bullshit?

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Look shocked everyone

quote:

David Cameron acknowledges there may be more Rebekah Brooks texts

David Cameron has acknowledged in private that he may be sitting on a further cache of emails and texts to and from Rebekah Brooks after a highly selective search was carried out for the Leveson inquiry.

The prime minister faced fresh embarrassment over his links with the former News International chief executive as it emerged that only a handful of his communications were searched for the inquiry, set up after the phone hacking scandal.

Cameron's aides looked only for emails and texts related to two specific areas highlighted by the inquiry – News International and BSkyB.

The prime minister believes it is wrong of critics, such as the former Labour Europe minister Chris Bryant, to say that he is sitting on a secret cache of communications because any emails and texts uncovered in the search were handed to the inquiry. But he acknowledges that a wider search may yield more texts and emails between the two.

Cameron faced further discomfort when the Mail on Sunday published a text from Brooks in which she said she had cried twice during his party conference speech. She wrote: "Brilliant speech. I cried twice. Will love 'working together'."

The paper also published a more innocuous text sent by the prime minister to Brooks about a horse he rode in company with her husband Charlie, one of Cameron's oldest friends. "The horse CB [Charlie Brooks] put me on. Fast, unpredictable and hard to control but fun. DC."

It is understood the texts were handed to the Leveson inquiry by Brooks, as were the texts published by the inquiry in the summer. These revealed that Cameron signed some of his texts to Brooks LOL, although she claimed that this meant "Laugh Out Loud", not "Lots of Love".

Bryant tweeted of the new revelations: "These new texts are the tip of an iceberg." The Mail on Sunday reported that Bryant has claimed to be in contact with a No 10 "mole" involved in searching for the texts and emails who is said to have described them as "salacious".

Bryant told Cameron in the Commons on Wednesday that there was a "stash" of emails. He said: "There is a stash of embarrassing emails, isn't there? [Former special adviser] Adam Smith had to publish every single one of his emails and ended up resigning. Why will the prime minister not publish all his emails?

"Can he really be a fit and proper person to judge on the future of press regulation if he will not come clean with the British public?"

Cameron declined to respond to Bryant's specific point on the grounds that he is awaiting an apology from him after he broke an embargo to release information from the inquiry to the House of Commons. Cameron said: "There is another rule of the house, which is that if you insult someone in the house, you make an apology. I am still waiting. It is this government who set up the Leveson inquiry and I gave all the information that Leveson requested to that inquiry."

David Willetts, the universities minister, admitted the texts showed the relationship between politicians and some newspapers was too close. "The purpose of Leveson is to take a step back and see what makes sense and what's the right regime," he told the Sunday Politics show on BBC1.

Willetts added: "The prime minister has always complied with every request for relevant information from Leveson. Now of course we wait and see what Lord [Justice] Leveson proposes. No previous government set up a Leveson."

spamman
Jul 11, 2002

Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

quote:

The prime minister believes it is wrong of critics, such as the former Labour Europe minister Chris Bryant, to say that he is sitting on a secret cache of communications because any emails and texts uncovered in the search were handed to the inquiry. But he acknowledges that a wider search may yield more texts and emails between the two.
You don't say.

hexa
Dec 10, 2004

And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom

quote:

It is understood the texts were handed to the Leveson inquiry by Brooks, as were the texts published by the inquiry in the summer. These revealed that Cameron signed some of his texts to Brooks LOL, although she claimed that this meant "Laugh Out Loud", not "Lots of Love".

Pretty sure it was the other way round, wasn't it?

Wiggly Wayne DDS
Sep 11, 2010



glitchkrieg posted:

Pretty sure it was the other way round, wasn't it?
I recall Brookes stating that Cameron thought it meant Lots of Love and her having to have an awkward conversation with him over it.

goddamnedtwisto
Dec 31, 2004

If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you
Fun Shoe

DaWolfey posted:

That Mail article is terrible.
We already knew about the LOL, "yes we cam!" and the "working together" lines.
To use the word horseplay, clearly meant to be interpreted as "DID THEY HAVE AN AFFAIR!? HORSEPLAY, YOU KNOW - SEX" and with the "fast unpredictable ride" line it's trying to get you to wonder if they had an affair or if their relationship was more than just friends.

Pathetic, can we shut down the Mail forever for that misleading bullshit?

I think it's a warning shot from the Mail, aimed in several directions at once. First, at Cameron directly. I don't think he had an affair with Brooks (because I don't think he has actual genitals but was vat-grown in Tory Central Office) but the tone of the texts already released is flirty enough to get the Mail readers harumphing, and I'm sure the unreleased ones are even more painful. It never hurts Fleet Street to remind politicians what can happen if you cross them.

Second, by dangling the possibility that there might be a deeper scandal unearthed by obtaining communications through illicit means (in this case a leak rather than a hack) they're trying to take the wind out of the sails of any future campaign for press regulation.

Finally, Dacre is probably relishing being able to put the boot into Brooks once again. They genuinely hate each other, and he's probably not stopped smiling since she got arrested.

Sex Vicar
Oct 11, 2007

I thought this was a swingers party...

goddamnedtwisto posted:

I think it's a warning shot from the Mail, aimed in several directions at once. First, at Cameron directly. I don't think he had an affair with Brooks (because I don't think he has actual genitals but was vat-grown in Tory Central Office) but the tone of the texts already released is flirty enough to get the Mail readers harumphing, and I'm sure the unreleased ones are even more painful. It never hurts Fleet Street to remind politicians what can happen if you cross them.

Second, by dangling the possibility that there might be a deeper scandal unearthed by obtaining communications through illicit means (in this case a leak rather than a hack) they're trying to take the wind out of the sails of any future campaign for press regulation.

Finally, Dacre is probably relishing being able to put the boot into Brooks once again. They genuinely hate each other, and he's probably not stopped smiling since she got arrested.

The Mail On Sunday editor isn't Dacre though, it's Geordie Gregg (Dacre hates his guts as well, apparently). So Dacre wouldn't have had much in a say in the decision to run it and is probably hopping mad about it as well since he didn't get it (Especially as he's allegedly on thin ice with the Rothmere's at the minute).

I can see it being a warning from Associated Newspapers in general that the Rothmere's approved, however and the rest of your post is spot on in their intentions.

Chichevache
Feb 17, 2010

One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.
I know you're probably sick of this, but I wanted to let you all know that there's another lurker who loves this thread. Keep it up, the rest of us are just too uninformed to contribute to this masterpiece.

The X-man cometh
Nov 1, 2009
With all of this poo poo coming in about the Cameron and the Tories, why haven't the Lib Dems broken the coalition with them? It can't be good for their image, and they already got their referendum.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

The X-man cometh posted:

With all of this poo poo coming in about the Cameron and the Tories, why haven't the Lib Dems broken the coalition with them? It can't be good for their image, and they already got their referendum.

Because they are politicians and they like being in power, and they know they have no way to avoid being minced into a fine paste at the next election. I'm sure they have nice jobs lined up for when half of them lose their seats.

The X-man cometh
Nov 1, 2009

marktheando posted:

Because they are politicians and they like being in power, and they know they have no way to avoid being minced into a fine paste at the next election. I'm sure they have nice jobs lined up for when half of them lose their seats.

I thought this might be a good election for them. I thought Labour was still a complete mess.

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

The X-man cometh posted:

I thought this might be a good election for them. I thought Labour was still a complete mess.

They are still a complete mess, but latest polls put Labour ahead by ten points. The Lib Dems are in fourth place behind UKIP.

Zephro
Nov 23, 2000

I suppose I could part with one and still be feared...

The X-man cometh posted:

With all of this poo poo coming in about the Cameron and the Tories, why haven't the Lib Dems broken the coalition with them? It can't be good for their image, and they already got their referendum.
Because they're currently fourth in some polls, behind UKIP.

The X-man cometh
Nov 1, 2009
4th place? Wow. What happened?

marktheando
Nov 4, 2006

The X-man cometh posted:

4th place? Wow. What happened?

Well you already know about them being in coalition with the tories, right?

Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Cameron has been caught out by the look of it

quote:

Leveson Inquiry DID ask David Cameron to provide evidence of News International communications on 'a range of issues'



The Leveson Inquiry asked David Cameron for communications between himself and representatives of News International that covered a “range of issues” that went further than just the BSkyB bid, The Independent has been told.

However lawyers advising the Prime Minister “interpreted” the request for information as narrowly as possible, allowing him to hand over no texts or emails to Lord Justice Leveson’s press inquiry.

The inquiry’s decision to allow Downing Street lawyers to “interpret” their requests, and to leave Mr Cameron to define for himself what “inappropriate conversations” meant, was last night criticised by the Labour’s shadow justice minister, Chris Bryant.

The Rhonda MP has been demanding for weeks that the Prime Minister publish a cache of “dozens” of emails described as “embarrassing and salacious” between himself and the former chief executive of News International, Rebekah Brooks.

The Independent revealed the existence of the emails last month. Legal advice on the emails that Downing St received from government lawyers said that full disclosure to Leveson was not necessary because they fell out with the remit of the inquiry.

“There is a clear disconnect between what Leveson asked for, and the interpretation Downing Street put on that,” Mr Bryant said. “To resolve this, the Leveson Inquiry should now publish the exact questions it put to the Prime Minister. “

Mr Cameron has repeatedly refused to answer calls by Mr Bryant during PMQs in the Commons to publish the cache of private emails between himself and Mrs Brooks. He is also withholding emails between himself and the former News of the World editor, Andy Coulson. Mr Coulson later ran Downing Street’s communications operation.

Downing Street has denied Mr Cameron is hiding anything, stating that everything they were asked for has been handed over. However Leveson asking for communications that went beyond the BSkyB bid, substantially weakens Mr Cameron’s defence.

“The public does not know what the Leveson Inquiry asked the Prime Minister for. Neither do they know the scale of the communications between the PM and Rebekah Brooks. The number of texts and emails is crucial here,” said Mr Bryant.

Robert Jay QC, the inquiry’s senior counsel, repeatedly asked Mrs Brooks when she appeared before Lord Justice Leveson, how often she had texted Mr Cameron. He asked her was it “a dozen times a day?” or a “handful of times a day?”. And asked her “Can you give us an idea of frequency?”

However the emphasis on frequency was absent when the Prime Minister was questioned.

Mr Bryant has estimated that up to 150 text messages between himself and Mr Brooks were disclosed to the Leveson Inquiry by News International. None were handed over by Downing Street.

Two texts were discussed by the inquiry, with one mentioning that Mr Cameron off using the term 'LOL' which he thought meant “lots of love”.

Last weekend two further texts held by the inquiry were leaked to the Mail on Sunday newspaper. Their content proved embarrassing for Mr Cameron, with Mrs Brooks saying she cried twice during a Cameron Tory conference speech which she called “brilliant” and added “Will love ‘working together’”.

Today the Liberal democrat peer, Lord Oakeshott, added to the political pressure on the PM, which includes some of his own MPs, saying that it was now “in the public interest” that he publish the email cache and all the texts. He said “These exchanges show an unhealthy close relationship between Rebekah brooks and David Cameron.”

Pozzo
Nov 4, 2009

What is like posting in a thread?
A Ballista, that's what!
Irony.jpg


Plasmafountain
Jun 17, 2008

Just when I think that irony has died, theres another idiot who comes along to prove me wrong.

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Brown Moses
Feb 22, 2002

Interesting piece from the Guardian

quote:

Arrested Sun journalists are between a rock and a hard place

Arrested Sun journalists are finding themselves caught between a rock and hard place as they contemplate their dilemma while on police bail.

Some of them would like to help Scotland Yard police who are investigating the alleged paying of public officials but feel constrained from doing so because of the unique situation in which they find themselves.

They say they have refused to answer questions because they fear News International might react by refusing to go on paying their wages and also by cutting off the funding for the lawyers hired to act for them.

Two of the arrested Sun journalists, speaking independently, have told me that they see themselves as being trapped in the middle of a struggle between their employer and the Metropolitan police.

They suspect that officers working for Operation Elveden, the team investigating corrupt payments to public officials, believed that the pressure of being under investigation would cause them to provide information that will lead to the arrests of more senior executives.

And one of the arrested journalists is even convinced that the police are seeking to bring a corporate corruption charge against News International.

During questioning by police, both journalists say officers are clearly seeking to identify any staff higher up the News International chain of command who were responsible for sanctioning payments to their sources.

But the journalists feel inhibited from giving any such evidence to the police because the company has provided them with lawyers, is funding their legal fees and also continuing to pay their wages.

They fear that if they speak out they will lose their legal representation and face being fired. "We are in a Kafkaesque situation," said one of the journalists. "We are just pawns in a bigger game."

Twenty-one Sun journalists are currently on police bail and all but three have returned to work. One reporter has been on bail since November last year. Most were detained in January and February, including five senior executives.

Two of the bailed journalists say that during their interrogations by police they have opted under legal advice to say "no comment" to every question.

One of them said: "I do trust my lawyer, and I understand that it's normal practice not to answer questions. On the other hand, I don't see why I should be in this position when other people in the office knew all about the money I paid and why I paid it.

"It all went through normal channels. There were signed dockets and invoices. There is a paper trail, surely. It was known what I was doing. I couldn't spend that kind of money without it being approved from above."

The second person, speaking separately and unaware of the other source's statement, also said he accepted legal advice not to answer questions.

He said he did not believe his lawyer had a conflict of interest and accepted his advice. Nevertheless, he is anxious to give his side of the story and is aware that this would involve the naming of names.

According to him, police have not so far made an offer of immunity from prosecution should he speak out. This was confirmed by the other journalist. Hopes that the police might offer a deal were crushed when an officer told him that he did not expect that to happen.

He said: "Consider how weird our situation is. The evidence against us that led to our arrests and possible prosecution was provided by News International through its management and standards committee (MSC).

"Now News International are paying for our defence, and even for psychological counselling if we require it. They are also paying our wages. We are are in an intolerable situation because we are advised to say nothing."

A police source has indicated that the MSC changed its terms of reference after initial attempts were made to establish how high up the tree the knowledge of wrongdoing went. This inquiry appears to have been discontinued.

The two arrested journalists are both convinced that News International's former chairman, James Murdoch, and his senior executive advisers set up the MSC out of panic.

"They really didn't expect to unleash a monster," said one of them who believes that James's father, Rupert, would have foreseen the mess and therefore would have avoided creating the MSC in order to assist the police.

NB: Neither journalist was in the least critical of their legal advisers. They understand that a lawyer's responsibility is to represent the client (and not the paymaster).

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