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Suben posted:Honestly if you were a kid watching WCW during Luger's run against the nWo and you DIDN'T rack friends/brothers/cousins/whoever you could I dare say you were a Bad Wrestling Fan. Or an nWo fan. TOOOOOO SWEEEEEEET
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Oct 27, 2012 17:52
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Luger was way over. People who aren't wrestling fans but watched it sporadically during the Monday Night Wars still remember Luger, and are more likely to know who Luger is than Orton, or even Cena. Maybe not in the US or Canada though, I meant globally.
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Oct 28, 2012 12:08
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So... so the Total Package is a bigger global phenomenon than Cenamania?
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Oct 28, 2012 12:36
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People who don't know the WWF changed to the WWE are more likely to know who Luger is, or was, than Cena. And that's a lot of people, worldwide. It's just because everyone loved wrestling in the late 90s, it was considered cool.
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Oct 28, 2012 13:32
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Rad R. posted:Luger was way over. People who aren't wrestling fans but watched it sporadically during the Monday Night Wars still remember Luger, and are more likely to know who Luger is than Orton, or even Cena. Maybe not in the US or Canada though, I meant globally. This isn't an argument for why Luger was over paid compared to how much money he brought in, right?
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Oct 28, 2012 13:50
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No, no, definitely not. I was speaking in pop culture terms. The average human knows who Hogan is, they connect his name to wrestling. Luger was a top star during wrestling's biggest boom period, he has that in his favor.
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Oct 28, 2012 14:07
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Luger was one of those guys I only really got excited about if he was facing someone I really hated like Hollywood Hogan or Yokozuna. Outside of that he was the guy that played second fiddle to guys like Sting in WCW or Bret Hart in the WWF.
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Oct 28, 2012 19:25
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Fascinating, seemed like Dave knew about the Luger discussions, but heard they broke down.Then Vader got into a fight (and lost) to Mr Wonderful thus allowed them to free up the cash. That, coupled with how WWF were pushing Luger meant it was a surprise he was working without a contract and could easily turn up on Nitro.
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Nov 8, 2012 06:55
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Is it alright if we blame Nash for some of the WCW failing? Apparently the poke of death was partly his idea & his booking. In interviews he seems rather proud of himself for trolling people along with wasting their time and wrestling dollar. Not to mention that he was part of the kilq back in WWE, which most people (like Bam Bam) seem to consider as a bunch of poo poo heads who ruined a lot of people. I don't personally hate the guy (he's just boring and samey, but looks cool and female fans like him), but it seems like he made some good but at the same time some really poo poo decisions during his career.
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Nov 9, 2012 02:32
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Nash definitely had a part in the rise and fall of WCW.
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Nov 9, 2012 02:34
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Nash definitely shoulders some of the blame- he kept himself and his buddies near the top of the card for a long time.
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Nov 9, 2012 02:34
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According to a Nash Shoot it was the dot com bubble exploding that caused wcw to die.
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Nov 9, 2012 02:38
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bobkatt013 posted:According to a Nash Shoot it was the dot com bubble exploding that caused wcw to die. Partially true, although WCW losing money hand over fist didn't really make themselves safe from being shut down. If WCW had been making money then they would probably have never been cancelled.
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Nov 9, 2012 02:44
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Gonzo McFee posted:Partially true, although WCW losing money hand over fist didn't really make themselves safe from being shut down. If WCW had been making money then they would probably have never been cancelled. Exactly. Also, his NBA example is garbage because NBA draws way better sponsors than WCW.
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Nov 9, 2012 02:46
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i need my davequotes 
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Nov 9, 2012 03:35
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From the 9-11-1995 Observer: Dave must really hate Lex Luger. quote:Luger's string of earning big money either from guaranteed contracts or incredible main event pushes based more on perceived potential than any track record appeared to have run out when he and Davey Boy Smith were made into a tag team in WWF, originally groomed to capture the WWF tag title, but since the team failed to get over in the slightest, plans again were changed and Smith didn't even do his major turn on Luger for fear it would hold Smith back as a potential top heel to turn on someone that the fans didn't care about... The contract carried over into pro wrestling when the WBF folded, where Luger first failed to get over as the heel The Narcissist, then after a face turn and one of the biggest pushes in the history of the business, failed to get over as a face and the plans of building the company's future around him were abandoned. quote:With the exception of a brief period in 1988 when he turned face for the first time and worked with Flair and Anderson at house shows, Luger has never in his career shown any real drawing power either as a face or as a heel despite an almost incredible number of chances. In fact, going back to the late 1991/early 1992 period when he was a heel world champion in WCW, WCW gates actually markedly increased on shows that Luger, the group's world champion, didn't appear in comparison to shows that he did because when he didn't appear, it pushed the then far more effective Rick Rude to the focal point of the house shows. quote:The debut of Nitro before an estimated 2,000 fans at the Mall of America in Minneapolis was overall a huge success as far as making a mark the first night out. There were the requisite first-time problems, the most obvious of which was the announcing. Bobby Heenan was better than he's been on recent Saturday and PPV shows, but his gimmick is predictable old hat today. Bischoff can't call a match and both were world's better than Steve McMichael, who came off as obnoxious and clueless at the same time, which is not the best combination for someone playing a babyface role. All three appeared to go into the show unprepared, so with preparation they could improve, but McMichael didn't appear to have any potential in the role as he's a natural heel, is not quick-witted enough for his role, doesn't speak well and most importantly, is in no way a big enough celebrity that he's means squat when it comes to ratings. The sooner they drop him the better and it isn't going to be sooner. quote:Norton showed up out of nowhere and his name was never even mentioned until after the angle was over. Norton went face-to-face with McMichael who nearly succeeded in killing the entire angle Ed Whalen style by laughing at someone who is supposed to be a killer heel. Savage showed up to save the day in more ways than one, and after a commercial break they announced the match had been signed for next week. quote:Mike Rotunda then did an interview, doing what appeared to be a Million Dollar Man knockoff as Michael Wallstreet (the role he used briefly before going to WWF as IRS), making a few knocks at the WWF saying the New Generation is the Few Generation and that he's sure the IRS will be watching him. This has to be some sort of a misprint from the tapings results quote:Also at the taping, in a re-tape of a match at the 8/21 taping, Cobra again hid under the ring but this time didn't jump Craig Pittman before the bell. Match only went 2:00 with Cobra winning with a flying cobra. quote:Twice during the show they were supposed to have a Sting vs. Johnny B. Badd U.S. title match but both times ref Nick Patrick came out and told ring announcer Dave Penzer that Badd hadn't arrived. I believe they are doing an angle that either Badd was jumped or Badd's car was gimmicked as to why he didn't appear as Badd was rubbing dirt on his face for the interview for this show backstage. quote:American Males, called Marcus Bagwell & Scotty Riggs (formerly Scott Studd in Georgia and Memphis, real name Scott Anton), beat the Barrio Brothers (Ricky Santana & Dave Sierra, billed as Ricky & Fidel) in a good match. And if you want to read the full story of Paul Orndorff beating up Vader, go subscribe.
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Nov 10, 2012 10:04
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Super Barrio brothers?
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Nov 10, 2012 19:42
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Golden Bee posted:Super Barrio brothers? They pretended to be Mexican but turned out to be Cuban... or something. It was Fidel Sierra and someone else I forget. In other news, the Hall of Fame issue just came out so that means Dave is responding to trolls on THE BOARD with history lessons. quote:Sting and Cena aren't analogous. The funny thing is Dave has been more positive on Sting in the HoF than he has been in recent years. There was also this in a Big Daddy thread... quote:Autism?
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Nov 12, 2012 08:30
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Dave'd.
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Nov 12, 2012 11:38
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I totally agree on the Sting count, but this:quote:Cena has been the top guy in the world for years. The biggest star in the entire world for many years should be a no-brainer, particularly when backed up by success. Cena is not the star like Hogan, Austin, Rock, Londos, Lewis, Bruno, guys who were real cultural figures because wrestilng isn't as popular. But he's still the biggest draw in the world and has been for years, not just a 1-2 year run. He's a bigger draw than all but your top tier guys historically. is bullshit. Wrestling isn't as popular anymore because Cena is poo poo and his continued presence as the superman of wrestling who all shall kneel down in front of is what has driven us to the point of mediocrity that we're at. If he had even half the charisma of a Hogan, Rock or Austin he'd have been a meteoric star by now with the push that he's had.
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Nov 12, 2012 11:48
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I wonder how Meltzer ever survives being in the same room with other people and not get punched in the face. He always seems like the sort of guy random people on the street would look at and try to run his head through a window.
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Nov 12, 2012 13:03
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Saul Goode posted:Wrestling isn't as popular anymore because Cena is poo poo This is not supported by any data.
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Nov 12, 2012 13:08
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Bocc Kob posted:I wonder how Meltzer ever survives being in the same room with other people and not get punched in the face. He always seems like the sort of guy random people on the street would look at and try to run his head through a window. People don't gently caress with Dave because Dave is jacked as hell. Abs.
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Nov 12, 2012 13:40
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Paper Jam Dipper posted:This is not supported by any data. He's the "biggest draw in the world" and the world doesn't care about wrestling anymore, that's all the data I need. Wrestling will never go into a boom period with John Cena as the marquee name, just like it never went into a boom period with Bret Hart as the man. It's not a cyclical business because fans mysteriously come and go, it's cyclical because we go through long periods of having lovely 'draws' getting shoved down our throats to the exclusion of guys who could genuinely bring about a resurgence in wrestling's popularity. I really can't believe how someone as smart about the industry as Meltzer could argue that Cena isn't at the level of Steve Austin because of his environment and not for the simple fact that super babyface Cena is a horribly unappealing main eventer.
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Nov 12, 2012 13:43
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I can believe it pretty easily.  Meltzer's just a wrestle-sperg with some inside contacts. He accumulates piles of statistics and obsesses over them, but that doesn't make him particularly insightful. If he had popped up nowadays, he'd probably be ridiculed or ignored like a lot of other nuts on the internet. Bocc Kob fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Nov 12, 2012 |
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Nov 12, 2012 13:50
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I think it was UFC and the internet that helped kill the wrestling industry. Cena killed my interest in wrestling for a decade, but I wouldn't blame him for taking the sport out of the public eye.
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Nov 12, 2012 15:04
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I wouldn't say that Cena killed wrestling, but it's his job as The Guy to carry the company, and he's doing a lovely job.
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Nov 12, 2012 15:13
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Saul Goode posted:He's the "biggest draw in the world" and the world doesn't care about wrestling anymore, that's all the data I need. That's a post hoc fallacy. You're discounting a lot of other variables, from the overall quality of WWE's content, to Cena being booked similar to Hogan in a climate where that doesn't work as well, to UFC as a competitor, etc. It's not just that "wrestling is cyclical", it's that there are a bunch of factors in WWE not being as big as it was and it's foolish to pin it all on one guy.
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Nov 12, 2012 15:19
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Saul Goode posted:He's the "biggest draw in the world" and the world doesn't care about wrestling anymore, that's all the data I need. Wrestling will never go into a boom period with John Cena as the marquee name, just like it never went into a boom period with Bret Hart as the man. It's not a cyclical business because fans mysteriously come and go, it's cyclical because we go through long periods of having lovely 'draws' getting shoved down our throats to the exclusion of guys who could genuinely bring about a resurgence in wrestling's popularity. Bret Hart was like, the worst example you could have used.
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Nov 12, 2012 17:16
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Shawn Michaels?
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Nov 12, 2012 17:30
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Diesel.
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Nov 12, 2012 17:33
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Die Laughing posted:I think it was UFC and the internet that helped kill the wrestling industry. Cena killed my interest in wrestling for a decade, but I wouldn't blame him for taking the sport out of the public eye. I think the Attitude Era killed wrestling. Basically - something happened every week, and when things are no longer happening and everything remains status quo like it is now, no one cares.
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Nov 12, 2012 17:52
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I don't like Cena either, but the explosion of MMA and the precipitous decline of wrestling TV quality do not have a lot to do with Cena. Citing Sting as not being as big of a movie draw because Cena happens to have been in a lot of flops is certainly an observation, albeit one that means nothing in a wrestling hall of fame conversation. I also get the feeling that Dave thinks Cena is a better worker, or is roughly equivalent. I haven't seen that many Sting matches, but that isn't saying much for Sting, certainly, when Cena has had a small handful of must-see matches in seven years. Cena is top draw in an era where wrestling doesn't really draw and the stuff that does draw is paved over after a month. There's a lot of stuff that has happened that was worth a lot more money than what WWE made off it. If Sting becomes an HOFer, it should be because any story of WCW is incomplete if you don't talk about Sting. Name Change fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 12, 2012 |
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Nov 12, 2012 18:12
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The Cena argument is hard, because it could go two ways: 1) Wrestling is not popular right now because of Cena 2) If wrestling didn't have Cena it would be even less popular than it is. Personally I don't think Cena is the real issue. What really is bringing wrestling down is the stale, horrible creative direction. Cena is the focal point of this, and I think he's only as popular as he is because he has talent & charisma to get past the booking.
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Nov 12, 2012 18:49
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triplexpac posted:The Cena argument is hard, because it could go two ways: Ding ding ding. Stephanie has ruined creative.
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Nov 12, 2012 18:52
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While it's true I wouldn't watch a WWE show regardless of whether Cena was on it or not, I also wouldn't watch Cena doing anything if the show were theoretically good. And I was willing to watch WCW when it was at maximum Russo.
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Nov 12, 2012 19:08
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I wanna know just how much Russo was involved in getting the world title onto Booker T. I think that was his real lasting contribution to WCW.
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Nov 12, 2012 20:35
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Saul Goode posted:
Because at times he's been able to draw to that level. He can't sustain it, but his peaks have been incredibly high. A year ago I was pretty down on Cena as a draw, I thought he wasn't a sure-fire first ballot Hall of Famer because WWE had been in such a decline, but things have stabilized or ticked up and he's added another gigantic main event to his resume. A horribly unappealing main eventer would not do the most buys in the history of wrestling against the Rock. He just wouldn't. The Rock is extra business on his own, but if you threw main eventer X in there it wouldn't have been record level high. This isn't his first million buy PPV either. You add that to the ungodly amount of merchandise the guy moves and well, he's a giant star. Without John Cena wrestling would be in bad shape today. Certain indicators look like 1993 or 1994, but today isn't those years, WWE is making a lot of money they are all over TV and the business has changed. John Cena is a big reason for that. He's not Steve Austin, he's not Hulk Hogan and he's not the Rock. But he's well above Bret Hart, HBK or any other American star in the PPV era. That is a huge statement, he's the fourth biggest star of the last three decades. If business kept declining in the last year I'd feel a lot differently, but things have improved in certain ways and Cena has been a part of that. If you put him in a different creative environment, he would be bigger. The guy is just so loving charismatic.
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Nov 12, 2012 21:52
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The last time wrestling had a ton of attention was last year after CM Punk's kayfabe shoot. Cena didn't book that angle (which was red hot), and he certainly didn't book the Kevin Nash Texting storyline (that ended in an utterly unwatchable match). Austin vs. Nexus sounds awesome... but even he couldn't have saved what it became. "Gimme me a beer, Heath, I'm breaking Nexus up FROM THE INSIDE!"
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Nov 12, 2012 22:19
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Saul Goode posted:He's the "biggest draw in the world" and the world doesn't care about wrestling anymore, that's all the data I need. Correlation, causation, etc.
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Nov 12, 2012 22:56
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