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Freemasonry is the world's oldest esoteric fraternity, varyingly referred to as a secret society, fraternal order, conspiratical organization, etc. While commonly called a secret society, Masons tend to prefer calling ourselves a "society with secrets." Details of our rites and rituals are kept secret for a variety of reasons which I will discuss, none of which are nefarious but rather traditional. Our membership is not commonly secretive, except in countries and times when it is necessary to be so (whereas Masons in America commonly wear rings or rock emblems on their cars, Masons in China must by necessity be much less overt). Our history is long, with realistic estimates looking at Freemasonry developing from actual guilds and lodges of masons working in the middle ages in the present day UK. Popular (likely mythical) origins tell of integration of the Knights Templar, and it is certainly evident that masonry existed in a primitive form as early as the building of many great cathedrals in the UK, as many have symbols that modern day Masons would recognize instantly. We are a storied and long-lived fraternity, dedicated to promoting the most noble ideals of Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth, and we are open to men of all races and creeds should they meet some few (occasionally contested) mandatory requirements. Requirements to become a Freemason The requirements to become a Mason vary in wording and phrasing, and sometimes in interpretation (Florida  ) from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but they boil down to this:If a man wishes to become a Freemason, he must: 1. Be a man, and of lawful age (varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, usually 21, sometimes 18, or anywhere in between). 2. Be born free (i.e., not a slave). 3. Possess a good moral character and be able to be vouched for. 4. Profess a belief in God. These requirements are immutable, regarded as "ancient landmarks" which no mason nor assembly of masons is able to change. They are largely historical, with only the fourth usually providing a question and historically it is left to the candidate to decide if he meets such a requirement. This is probably the most contentious of the requirements, so I will address it straightaway. A belief in God is historically required because the degrees are each accompanied by a sworn oath taken on a "volume of the sacred law." In "time immemorial," it was believed that an atheist could not possibly take such an oath and have it be binding upon him. Masonry was heavily involved in the development of the Enlightenment and Enlightenment Era thinking, but predates it, and as such predates the development of atheistic or agnostic moral philosophy. In 14th century England, there wasn't really any other ethical game in town, and so it was never a question. It is often a question today. Certainly most people accept that a person can be noble, honorable, ethical, moral, just, and honest without professing belief in God. Further, as the world became larger, so to speak, interpretations have been made to allow other faiths that are able to answer that question to their own satisfaction. Historically, Masonry does not exclude any man of any religion based on what interpretation of "God" they choose - Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Sufis, Deists, and Jainists all sit together in perfect harmony, each interpreting the reference to a Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU) in their own way. Even Buddhists, who do not profess such a belief as a central creed, are generally accepted in Masonry if they are capable of answering the question to their own satisfaction, and Hindu believers, who believe in many gods but one Brahma, are also welcome. It is even possible to be admitted without any specific religion, but rather a simple spiritual sense and conception of a "philosopher's god" or prime mover. But atheists, agnostics, and non-theists cannot become Masons as such. While there are orders claiming to be masonic that will admit such (the Grand Lodge of France, for example, or Co-Masonry, for another), these lodges are not considered "regular" (more on that later) and so aren't really within the scope of this thread. Despite many of us feeling sadly that non-believers cannot be admitted, it is sadly out of our hands. Many good men have come into this thread's previous incarnation and expressed regret or frustration that they cannot join our esteemed order, but it cannot be changed. It is an ancient landmark, and no man nor Mason has the authority to change these landmarks. Such is also the case regarding women. Many of us would not object to women joining on a personal level - were it any other order or organization, or were there provisions for changing this requirement, it would be done. But there is no such provision, and no such possibility. There are appendant bodies that accept women who are related to Masons, and this is a possibility for women who wish for the same kind of organization, but these are not Masonry proper. As appendant bodies though I will discuss them later. The Organization of the Craft At its fundamental level, Masonry is Craft Masonry, or the Blue Lodge. The Blue Lodge is the basic structure of Masonry, comprised of 3 degrees (3.5/4 in lodges under the Grand Lodge of Scotland), of which the third degree, Master Mason, is the highest. There is no higher degree than Master Mason. It is common for people from outside the Craft, especially conspiracy theorists, to point to various degrees as "higher" due to their numeric assignation, specifically in the Scottish Rite which goes regularly up to 32nd degree and, by nomination, to 33rd, but those degrees are part of the Scottish Rite, an optional and appendant body in Masonry. In the Craft Masonry, I as a Master Mason sitting next to a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason am exactly equal, for he is also a Master Mason (there is an exception for experience, as such a Scottish Rite mason is most likely a past master, which holds special esteem, if not a higher degree). The three degrees in the Craft Lodge are the Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and aforementioned Master Mason. The time spent in each degree, and the associated privileges, vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Generally speaking, in the United States, a candidate takes between one and three months to advance, and cannot wear Masonic jewelry, appear in public as a Mason, or vote in Lodge until he has reached Master Mason (though there are other things he can do). Each degree imparts a story and some information about their historical roles in the past organizations of actual operative masonic lodges. The structure of freemasonry is to impart moral lessons via allegory and ritual initiation. The actual content of the degrees basically teaches a dude about various virtues in a ritual manner (this is another reason that even if atheists could join, they would be ill fit, as esoteric ritualism is often lost on hard materialists). Appendant bodies continue the story along different paths. There are two appendant bodies seen as usual tracts for further Masonic education after being raised to the degree of Master Mason, and they are the York Rite and Scottish Rite. The Scottish Rite continues the numeric progression up to the 32nd degree. The York Rite is comprised of the Council, Chapter, and Commandery, the last of which is the spiritual if not historic successor of the famed Knights Templar. I am not a member of either of those bodies and details about them can be found elsewhere, and is kinda meaningless without completing Craft Masonry, but brothers who are members of those orders are welcome to write more about it if they want. At the higher level, each group of masons is organized into a Lodge, each Lodge is charted under a Grand Lodge, and each Grand Lodge must be able to trace its original charter back to either the United Grand Lodge of England, the Grand Lodge of Scotland, or the Grand Lodge of Ireland. Each Grand Lodge has total authority over its own jurisdiction, and no authority over another jurisdiction, though there is a interconnected political web of recognition such that within regular Masonry, a mason can travel nearly anywhere in the world and find a Lodge to attend. Since becoming a Master Mason in November of 2011, I have attended Lodge in three different states (Ohio, Kentucky, and Maryland) and two foreign countries (Ireland and Scotland). The Grand Lodges each have absolute jurisdiction over their own region, with some regions in the United States having two separate Grand Lodges due to our country's racist history. This is important to note because there are an uncountable number of conspiracy theories about us running the world as a unified bloc, which are entirely untrue as the Grand Lodges operate more or less independently, with no central authority over them whatsoever. Grand Lodges are all formed in "regularity" based on their historical relationship to one of the first three Grand Lodges (UGLE, GL of Scotland, GL of Ireland) and their continued adherence to ancient landmarks. The UGLE is a joint Grand Lodge of the previous English split Antients and "Moderns," and the descent and lineage of charter is what differentiates "Ancient Free and Accepted Masons" (AF&AM, e.g., Maryland) from "Free and Accepted Masons" (F&AM, e.g., Ohio). There is very little difference except the historical lineage and some small quibbling details. However, there are lodges that are not "regular," called "clandestine lodges." These lodges operate outside of the regular channels. There are a glut of these in some of the Southern states, where they serve as what essentially amounts to a scam, taking money for initiation into "Masonry" without actually making a man a regular Mason. A clandestine Mason may not sit in a regular lodge, and a regular Mason will not sit in a clandestine lodge. Furthermore, it is forbidden for a regular Mason to discuss Masonic matters with a clandestinely made Mason, as their Masonic status is not recognized. Questions and Answers Those were a lot of words, but quickly sum up what the hell Masonry actually is please! Masonry is a fraternal organization that imparts moral lessons through ritualistic initiation in the form of allegory and symbolism. So, what the hell do you guys actually do? Masons operate a variety of charities in various jurisdictions, as well as meeting regularly to conduct business, which is not really all that much to talk about. This thread's predecessor had its title changed to a joke about spaghetti dinner, which is fairly accurate. This video more or less describes Masonry in a nutshell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M96xGTehsnI What the gently caress is this bitcoin business? Bitcoiners posted a screencap of the title of the last thread in a thread to prove that SA is in on a global conspiracy to defeat bitcoin. In fact, the only masonic conspiracy involving bitcoin was that WAFFLEHOUND ran a legitimate business (the only known legit bitcoin business to date) and is a mason. And what about those goats? We don't talk about the goats, see? What about that racism stuff? Are you racists? Can African Americans be Masons? There is a schism historically but not practically. African Americans have their own Grand Lodges (sort of), called Prince Hall Lodges, which actually are not some kind of "separate but equal" thing but rather are Grand Lodges hailing from regular authority out of the special dispensations granted to members of African Lodge #459, Grand Lodge of England, itself formed based on the raising to Master Mason of an African-American named Prince Hall in 1775. The Prince Hall Grand Lodges and regular Grand Lodges existed in a kind of mutual ignorance for some hundreds of years, until relatively recently with the Civil Rights Movement, most regular lodges began recognizing their Prince Hall counterparts and vice versa. Some states have not done this, and it has caused a great deal of controversy in some places, but because each Grand Lodge operates on its own authority within its jurisdiction, it is a matter of waiting, as nothing can really be done. As a woman and/or atheist I am really upset that I can't be a mason, what's the score there? There are lodges, as I mentioned, that do not adhere to the ancient landmarks. Grand Orient de France is one, Co-Masonry is another large movement. For the purposes of this thread, the brothers who answer questions and who also use this thread as something of a place to talk shop with other goon brothers, are regular Masons and probably can't help you much here, but that would be a good place to start if you are really into rituals but can't join a regular lodge. I keep hearing you guys talking about worshiping some guy called The Master. Will Manos be served? Not that Master. The references to "Worshipful Master" and so on simply refers to the elected master of the Lodge. A good description of various lodge offices can be found here. I read in a Chick Tract that Freemasonry is an ancient Baphomet worshiping cult, is that true? Well, it's on the Internet, I assume they check their facts. Masonry is a very old organization that is generally secretive, and the history of its being scapegoated or  'd about it is as long as its own existence. From early Catholic proclamations that we are secularists aiming to destroy Christendom (the Pope was upset that some Masons were involved in a variety of reformation movements and in the overall dismantling of the Holy Roman Empire) to Nazi allegations that we stood in opposition to Nazism (this was half-true, Masonic ideals are incompatible with Nazism, but discussion of politics is not permitted in Masonic) to the Anti-Masonic Party in the United States, we're a group that people love to pick on or fear. The official Masonic response is to not respond, which only fans the flames with certain groups, providing clear evidence of the conspiracy.Well yea, what about those secrets, anyhow? The main "secrets" in Masonry are the "modes of recognition." These are the "secret handshakes" that you hear about so often, some associated phrases, and some of the contents of the rituals. They serve the purpose of being able to identify if a man really is a mason when they are strangers to the lodge, as well as to identify if a man is a mason before discussing Masonry with them outside the lodge, or just for whatever reason (it's good to know you're talking to your brother). In the past, especially during Catholic persecution of masons and in cultures and times when Masonry was not as well received, these secret modes of recognition were absolutely essential to maintaining the safety of a mason both from exposition of the Craft and exposition of the identity of a Mason. It was essential, a matter of life or death, to keep these methods safe and secret. In the modern day, we preserve these, guarding them with the utmost secrecy, despite them being largely obsolete. This is largely a nod to historical tradition, a recognition of the perseverance and honor of men gone before us, rather than a means of securing our own safety, but it is the reason for the secrecy. There's truly nothing earth shattering, but if you really want to know them and are resourceful, it shouldn't be hard. The best way, of course, is to simply join our Order, and learn them in the way they have been taught since time immemorial. Some Handy Links, Lists, and Other Stuff There are a wide variety of Appendant Bodies and related organizations. In no particular order, an incomplete list would include:
Further Reading There is talk of starting a wandering book club for interested individuals, brothers, and potential candidates. We'd love to get this going. In the interim, there are a few books the brothers in this thread and I would endorse. Probably the most recommended is Freemasons for Dummies, which is a good book written by Bro. Chris Hodapp, who also runs a relevant blog. I am also keen on recommending A Pilgrim's Path, a good book which covers some of the history of the order as well as a lot of good information on the various anti-Masonic movements through history. There are also websites for each individual Grand Lodge, but it would be tedious to link them all. If you are unsure if you're looking at the regular grand lodge versus a clandestine lodge, just ask us in thread and we'll point you the right way. Here's a handy link on why not to become a Freemason: http://braden168.wordpress.com/2014/04/17/why-you-shouldnt-become-a-freemason/ For Posterity: The Old Thread, Dating to Time Immemorial Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Dec 18, 2012 07:53
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Brethren, it is the pleasure of the Worshipful Master that Something Awful Mason Thread No. 3523447 be now opened and stand open for the dispatch of business!
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Dec 18, 2012 07:57
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The lodge is tiled accordingly!
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Dec 18, 2012 08:05
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The current order of business is "gently caress Florida".
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Dec 18, 2012 08:14
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From the old thread, which is now closed as mentioned by the WM of the SA Lodge, there is indeed a rather US centric view. To help out international candidates and more specifically those from the Netherlands, here is the link to the weblodge of Het Groot Oosten der Nederlanden, a regular Grand Lodge recognized by the UGLE. Perhaps some of our international brethern can share their weblodges with us? We put our trust in the GM of the SA WL to update his opening statement with all WL's that might pop up.
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Dec 18, 2012 08:49
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WAFFLEHOUND posted:The current order of business is "gently caress Florida". 
Kilo147 fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 09:19
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WAFFLEHOUND posted:The current order of business is "gently caress Florida". Grand Lodge of CA sent me this: Grand Secretary posted:Hi Brother Lovable, thanks for sharing your thoughts with the Grand Master and me. This item will likely be a topic of discussion at the Conference of Grand Masters of Masons of North American in Kansas City in February. You can be assured that our leadership will actively listen and participate in these discussions as appropriate. Also gently caress Arkansas. http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2012/11/shrine-declared-clandestine-in-arkansas.html I'm not a Shriner but I think this whole posturing thing between the two of them is idiotic. Edit: Worshipful Goon posted:Then as Worshipful Master, I order Something Awful Getout Thread #3523447 to be now open. Brother Goons, It's the order of the Worshipful Goon that a thread of master goons be open in this forum and that you conduct yourselves accordingly. 
Lovable Luciferian fucked around with this message at 15:09 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 14:10
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Brother Senior Warden, are all present Master Goons? Inquire through your proper channel until you are duly satisfied. "I am protected." Then as Worshipful Master, I order Something Awful Getout Thread #3523447 to be now open. 
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Dec 18, 2012 14:27
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Lovable Luciferian posted:Also gently caress Arkansas. http://freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com/2012/11/shrine-declared-clandestine-in-arkansas.html Reminds me of the posturing we had between Blue Lodge and Scottish Rite. A bunch of Blue Lodges meet on the ground floor of our temple building, and the Scottish Rite uses the upper floor of the building. There was some dumb argument over who's supposed to be paying for upkeep of the building, and for a while there was some tension and/or bad blood between the two groups. Eventually the NC Grand Master come down and was like "Are you guys fuckin' serious? You're all Master Masons and brothers, act like it drat it." Since then we've been fine 
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Dec 18, 2012 14:29
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The little bit of banter between you guys there made the start of this day enjoyable. Thanks guys. Makes me wish we could actually establish an Internet Lodge - I'm aware of one that has worldwide membership and meets occasionally in Manchester. The entire application process is performed electronically. Scottish Freemasonry - Differences. The Master of the Lodge is referred to as the 'Right Worshipful' Master. The Wardens, both Senior and Junior, are referred to as 'Worshipful' Junior or Senior Warden. Petitioning process is likely the same, criteria will be the same (but not elaborated upon) Regalia is up to the individual lodge to decide upon - this leads to a rich canopy of colours and patterns. There are a lot of tartans used, as well. Example -  The actual ceremonies themselves can also vary from lodge to lodge, even ones that meet in the same building. If any Brother feels a part of that post is objectionable for whatever reason, let me know asap and I'll modify accordingly.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:07
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That's pretty interesting. Here we refer to the Master of the Lodge as "Worshipful" and the Master of the Grand Lodge as "Right Worshipful". I like the kilts and tartans though
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Dec 18, 2012 15:18
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The Grand Orient de France sounds super rad, I wish we had something like that here.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:53
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Baronjutter posted:The Grand Orient de France sounds super rad, I wish we had something like that here. Well, they're not Masonry but if you're looking for them I'm sure you'll find them in North America.
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Dec 18, 2012 17:13
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Curious if anyone has ever tried to join the masons that claimed Satan was the one supreme being in his religion? Is this against specific rules? Do you believe in "a God"? Yes. Do you believe in the immortality of the soul? Yes. The resurrection to a future life? Yes.
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Dec 18, 2012 17:32
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Fellow MM checking in. Had the unfortunate experience of being entered in the shadow of Georgia's Scottish Rite drama with Gate City. It made me feel pretty uncomfortable, honestly, and at the time had me wondering about whether I should even proceed any further. I ended up getting raised, because I believed in the message of Masonry as a whole, despite what the narrow agendas of certain more closed-minded brethren are. But these recent fiascos have got me wondering again; what options are available to brethren who feel like they are forced to choose between their integrity and the decrees of individual Grand Lodges (or even Jurisdictions) who engage in this kind of thing? Is voluntary departure the only available option? Or would it be possible to seek "asylum" in the Grand Lodges or subordinate Lodges of another state, through affiliate membership, to keep one's connection with Masonry alive?
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Dec 18, 2012 17:42
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WAFFLEHOUND posted:The current order of business is "gently caress Florida". Florida Mason checking in and agreeing. This poo poo is ridiculous, and I (along with others) are concerned it could lead to loss of recognition if it's not struck down and stopped soon.
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Dec 18, 2012 17:54
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WAFFLEHOUND posted:Well, they're not Masonry but if you're looking for them I'm sure you'll find them in North America. They seem to describe them selves as masonry. "The Grand Orient de France (GODF) is the largest of several Masonic organizations in France and the oldest in Continental Europe" Do continental masons say american style masonry isn't real masonry? Is it a matter of opinion or are continental masons not "real" masons?
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Dec 18, 2012 18:05
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Rivethead posted:Curious if anyone has ever tried to join the masons that claimed Satan was the one supreme being in his religion? Is this against specific rules? Is it against the rules? No, not technically. I believe I may know somebody that can speak to this issue.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:06
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Baronjutter posted:They seem to describe them selves as masonry. The United Grand Lodge of England doesn't recognize them as a Masonic body, therefore they are not "Masonry" as we define it.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:07
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I've always been pretty interested in masonry, me and a few friends were fairly seriously considering joining up. Does Canadian masonry differ much from american? I'm trying to read up on it but I can't really tell if it's any more progressive than the american version. Any Canadian masons around? Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 18:10
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Baronjutter posted:I've always been pretty interested in masonry, me and a few friends were fairly seriously considering joining up. I'm sure the "progressiveness" varies from area to area. It's the same in America. Masonic lodges in Florida, for example, are way more conservative than Masonic lodges in California. In general, though, I don't think CA Masonry differs much from American Masonry.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:14
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Baronjutter posted:They seem to describe them selves as masonry. Continental Masons do not abide or hold to the ancient landmarks and so "regular" Masonry does not recognize their Masonic status, much the same way Protestants are not Catholics, even though they come from the same historical background and have the same fundamental ideas. It's not really an issue of continental versus Anglo-American Masonry, either, but rather Regular versus Clandestine Masonry, despite how it is framed. For a Lodge to be regular it must at the very least be recognized as regular by the United Grand Lodge of England, the Grand Lodge of Scotland, or the Grand Lodge of Ireland, and ideally all three, as those three Grand Lodges are comprised in part by lodges that have existed since "time immemorial" (the 1600s). Regular Masons do not recognize Clandestine Masons as Masons, because they aren't. They don't adhere to ancient landmarks we see as essential, specifically they allow women to join and they do not require a belief in god, which means that somewhere along the line, their historical antecedents have been oathbreakers. Because Masonry was formalized in the UK, all Masonry the world over ultimately descends from those Lodges, and so there's no real claim on which to found the concept of "continental Masonry" except inasmuch as Masons in France decided they had authority to make changes that they do not have authority to make. As such they lost their recognition and standing as Masons, even if they want to continue to claim such for themselves. Basically they claim to be masonic but it's almost akin to scab masonry - they aren't recognized as masons by the mason's union, they're just guys who know how to work stone. I actually really like that analogy, works well with what Masonry is historically, haha. Anyhow, in the US there are equivalent clandestine Masonic Lodges in the form of Co-Masonry which allows women but requires belief in a Supreme Being, and the Grand Orient of the US which is as you term it "continental Masonry." Again though all of the brothers in this thread as far as I know are regularly made Masons raised in a legally constituted Lodge operating under historical charter descended from on of the three Grand Lodges, and as such we are not permitted to hold Masonic conversation with clandestinely made Masons. You're certainly welcome to check those lodges out, and I'd encourage you to do so if you're otherwise ineligible for regular Masonry and you really want to, but we can't really help you. As for whether or not they say we're not real Masons, they wouldn't have the grounds to do so as those three original Grand Lodges formalized the whole thing and more or less started it, and that's a point of historical fact. While much of Masonic history is indeed questionable (I suspect, for example, the Knights Templar didn't really shack up with stonecutters to escape the Pope), there are minutes existing back to the first meetings of Grand Lodge masons in the UK in the early 1700s, and minutes and records showing continuous operation and membership lineage going back those several hundred years, so there's no challenge to the validity of regular Masonry. Edit: Regarding Canadian Masonry, the old OP was written by a Canadian Mason, and brother WAFFLEHOUND has sat in lodge in Canada on multiple occasions if I understand correctly, so may be able to speak to this question. Masonry follows its demographics, so Masonry in the South and Midlands is generally much more conservative than Masonry in the North and West. I would expect Canadian Masonry to follow that trend. While Masons tend to be among the more conservative members of a population as a general tendency (not a rule), there's a significant difference between "more conservative Canadian" or "more conservative Washingtonian" versus "more conservative Kentuckian" or "more conservative Floridan." So yeah, it's likely to be more progressive. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 18:17
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Where did the whole "no women" thing come from and how is it so deeply essential to being a mason? Is it just a matter of blindly guarding a tradition or is there some deeper importance? Society as a whole has progressed quite a bit since freemasonry has been around, why does it get a "pass" for not advance with it? Is there any sort of movement within masonry to try to separate the historical baggage related to the time in which the rules were created from the core elements?
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Dec 18, 2012 18:35
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Baronjutter posted:Where did the whole "no women" thing come from and how is it so deeply essential to being a mason? Is it just a matter of blindly guarding a tradition or is there some deeper importance? Answers to this would vary, but you'll find those answers are mainly that we're a fraternity, so it promotes brotherhood, that there is something to be said for having an "old boy's club," and good old fashioned historical trappings and sexism. It's a combination. The other reason is that some of our ritual work would be inconvenient for a woman in a way it is not for a man, but that's hardly a reason to exclude people. quote:Society as a whole has progressed quite a bit since freemasonry has been around, why does it get a "pass" for not advance with it? It's not so much an issue of not wanting to advance with society as it is a combination of two specific issues. One is that as a linear tradition dating back for hundreds of years and many generations, it would be insulting to the traditions we uphold to change them. This is not my own opinion, except there's the question of whether or not we'd be fundamentally changing Masonry, which we do not have the authority to do. The second problem is more practical but more difficult to explain to non-Masons as it has to do with contents of ritual that can't be discussed publicly. To boil it down to its barest bones, hopefully without speaking what I oughtn't, it's simply that nobody is able to do the work that would put a woman through without breaking their oaths and thus de facto losing their status as Masons. Like, I could get together a bunch of friends and do the ritual in a secret Lodge meeting in my apartment if I wanted, but in doing so I'd be violating an oath and operating without a charter, so the work we did would be invalid. quote:Is there any sort of movement within masonry to try to separate the historical baggage related to the time in which the rules were created from the core elements? Not that I know of within mainstream Masonry, because the rules related to the time aren't in conflict with core elements nor are they in conflict with modern elements. Masons are not really sexist, and we don't seek to exclude women, but we are a boy's club so to speak, and we can't admit women on those grounds. It's like hockey players. Hockey players don't tend to think that women shouldn't play hockey, but if women want to play hockey, they need to form their own league. There's no belief that they shouldn't play hockey, by all means they should! And there are women's organizations related to Masonry. But women can't join the men's hockey Olympic team, not out of sexism per se but simply because that would make the men's hockey team fundamentally different, fundamentally changed. And no mason or body of masons has the authority to make those fundamental changes.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:45
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So it all just comes down to tradition basically? All I'm hearing is "yeah its sexist, but we're not sexist, we just can't change the sexist rules because they're the rules and besides we actually like being a sexist boys club (not sexist for reals though)" or did I miss something? The sports analogy doesn't really work because it's also a pretty clear example of sexism. Should it not be purely based on athletic abilities? Should masons not be based purely on moral character? If a ritual would be awkward to do with a woman maybe the ritual needs to be changed, or the reasons for the discomfort among the male members examined and maybe "gotten over" ? Discomfort and awkwardness over women being included in traditionally male activities is not an excuse for sexism, it's an opportunity for personal growth (see: getting over being awkward sexists) Maybe it's a secret but I still don't understand how women would be so incompatible. Is there a ritual that involves actual genitals? Other than that I'm either too stupid or not good and old enough to get it. I don't want to get all tumbler social justice warrior in here but I'm just really curious how people and organizations, specially ones claiming to be all about upstanding morality and character (including not really being sexist), can rationalize such discriminatory rules and ideas regarding gender.
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Dec 18, 2012 19:14
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There's no analogy needed, it's a fraternity. Go to your nearest college and ask the fraternities why they don't allow women in, they'll give you much the same answer (though probably drunker (then again maybe not)). edit-- Honest question, do you consider sororities and fraternities to be sexist?
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Dec 18, 2012 19:17
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Tangentally (spelling?) related to the topic of 'progression' is another commentary on the Craft in Scotland. In most lodges here, someone who wants to hold office is usually started out with a few years in 'non progressive' office - by which I mean Bible Bearer, Sword Bearer, etc. Once they've had a few years experience of this, and perhaps dabbling a little with some floor work, they're then moved into 'progressive' office - starting with Tyler/Outer Guard, Inner Guard, Junior Deacon, Senior Deacon, Worshipful Junior / Senior Warden then culminating with being installed in the chair as RWM. Each office is usually held for two years, moving alternatively than the RWM. This is of course, the ideal, but doesn't always happen in practice. For example, I'm heading into the WJW position this coming year (which was a bit of a shock) yet I've only been in the craft three years - one year as Inner Guard, one year as Senior Deacon (currently), and now WJW-elect with installation in Feb 2013. If I am wrong, correct me, but I understand it is usualy practice for someone to spend a year in each 'progressive' office in the USA? On average, how many actually take up office, in your estimation? Likewise, how many actually spend a bit of time learning things before heading up to do the more floor-orientated work? How does the difference for the Craft in Scotland sound in comparison with your guys experience? I'd like to get your opinions.
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Dec 18, 2012 19:24
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We don't have fraternities where I live, in fact they are banned from university for being discriminatory among other problems. From what I know about them yes I think they are deeply sexist and more often than not harmful to both their own members and society at large and I'm supportive of their ban (as were a large majority of the voters here) I'm not getting much of an answer other than "well we aren't sexist, we just really like being a traditional boys club with the trappings of sexism and sexist rules". I can't think of a definition of sexism where willingly being part of a sexist organization, specially when one agrees with the sexism within it, doesn't make one a sexist. Anyways, I don't want to poo poo up your thread with SJW bullshit I'm sure you've heard a million times so I'll bow out if this isn't a line of discussion you guys want to go down.
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Dec 18, 2012 19:34
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Baronjutter posted:"well we aren't sexist, we just really like being a traditional boys club with the trappings of sexism and sexist rules" Yep that's pretty much verbatim what we said  We have the same rules we did multiple centuries ago when this fraternity was started, and they're not going to change anytime soon. I'm not going to try to debate you on these points because you've already made your mind up about our organization being sexist. Unfortunately, there's nothing we're going to be able to do to change your mind on this, so there's no point in arguing. If you are of the mindset that fraternities and sororities shouldn't exist, and all sports teams should be made co-ed, then... well, we're just going to be on opposite sides of this issue, sorry.
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Dec 18, 2012 19:43
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Baronjutter posted:If a ritual would be awkward to do with a woman maybe the ritual needs to be changed The point is we don't want the ritual changed. Half the reason I became a Mason was for its ties to history, changing the ritual removes those ties. What I went through when I was initiated is the exact same thing George Washington went through more than two centuries earlier. And again, there's the oath. We can't allow women or atheists to become Masons; as soon as we do, we violate our oaths, even if we really want women and atheists to become Masons. And once we violate our oaths, we are no longer Masons and so neither are the women or atheists.
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Dec 18, 2012 19:49
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Innerguard posted:If I am wrong, correct me, but I understand it is usualy practice for someone to spend a year in each 'progressive' office in the USA? On average, how many actually take up office, in your estimation? Likewise, how many actually spend a bit of time learning things before heading up to do the more floor-orientated work? How does the difference for the Craft in Scotland sound in comparison with your guys experience? I'd like to get your opinions. Generally how quickly you're put through the chairs here is a matter of how desperate your lodge is for fresh meat. My mother Lodge is from a small city of maybe 20,000 in Southeast Ohio, and the vast majority of people in this city would not pass ballot. As a result, I was a Master Mason for less than a month before I was made Senior Steward, and if I had not had to move away I would be the Senior Deacon now, just one year later, or possibly even the Junior Warden depending on how it shook out, due to the way our ranks fell apart (Junior Warden moved away, Junior Deacon declined to advance, and I moved away, meaning we had a pretty broken line where the Senior Warden moved to the East, the Senior Deacon became Senior Warden, and there were no apparent candidates for other offices). In larger lodges it is not uncommon for a man to become a member but not an officer, or for a man to wait some years before holding office. In my new Lodge I do not anticipate starting to work until the fresh cadre of recently made Master Masons all get a go, so I'm looking at 10 years or so before I start doing floor work again, which is to me a bit regretful as I really enjoy doing the ritual work. You are correct though that here in the States we typically do a moving chair of one or two year terms, where the de facto progression is Junior Steward, Senior Steward, Jr Deacon, Sr Deacon, Jr Warden, Sr Warden, Worshipful Master. The offices of Tyler and the Stewards are appointed, rather than elected, and Secretary, Treasurer, Chaplain, Marshall (when applicable), Lodge Education Officer, and so on are usually held by Past Masters and do not change all that often. In truth the only hard requirement in my mother lodge and commonly elsewhere is that a Master must have been a Warden previously, that is, you can't be raised in November and given the Past Master degree in December and assume the East in January no matter what the circumstances. The US works a lot differently in that we push guys to be Masters in a hurry. In most States all business is conducted in the third degrees, so if you're an EA or FC you get hosed as you can't even sit in Lodge for regular meetings, and the Lodge is dropped in degree for returning work. For this reason we try to get guys to MM as quick as possible, whereas over there you can be an EA or FC for some years as I understand it. Another crucial difference is that most if not all US lodges are dry and it is lame as hell. We get no Harmonies here. I don't even drink anymore, so it's not a big hurt, but I had a hell of a lot of fun drinking until 3AM with the fellows at Lodge Scotia.
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Dec 18, 2012 19:56
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I can attest for short terms. My lodge prides itself on having never repeated a WM in its entire history. That probably accounts for a lot of its progressiveness.
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Dec 18, 2012 19:59
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7thBatallion posted:The lodge is tiled accordingly! Junior Deacon, at or near the right of the Snr Warden. Best job in the officer ranks as far as I'm concerned, you can go anywhere without having to salute because you carry a long stick.
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Dec 18, 2012 20:23
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So how do transmen figure into the whole "no girls allowed" thing?
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Dec 18, 2012 20:46
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Baronjutter posted:I've always been pretty interested in masonry, me and a few friends were fairly seriously considering joining up. It's no more "progressive" and every lodge in Canada I visited might as well have been an American lodge. Baronjutter posted:Society as a whole has progressed quite a bit since freemasonry has been around, why does it get a "pass" for not advance with it? Because as an organization it's still mostly about a bunch of old guys wanting some time with buddies away from their wives. Broken Knees Club posted:So how do transmen figure into the whole "no girls allowed" thing? There was actually a big discussion on this in the last several of pages of the last thread. e. Basically it boiled down to most of us younger Masons caring more about gender identity than sex and an acknowledgement that it might be an uphill battle with the older Masons. WAFFLEHOUND fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 20:48
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First off, this is a really cool thread. I live in a small college town, and I live about a block away from the Mason's Lodge in town. I always wondered about it. I've seen them do inductions before, and I even got into a long conversation with some Masons one night when I was out drunk. They wanted me and my friend to join, but couldn't tell me much of what they did besides Charity. But I neither had the time, nor probably the level of conservatism of this lodge (I'm in South Carolina).Baronjutter posted:"well we aren't sexist, we just really like being a traditional boys club with the trappings of sexism and sexist rules." The Junior League. Just because it exists and is segregating does not mean it has no place in modern society. fake edit: Also, what if there was a social organization called the Men's Women's Rights Defense League. Men only. Purpose was to uphold and defend women and their rights and statuses in society. Their initiation rite was to receive a brutal beating at the hands of other members. The very act of admitting a woman would perpetuate violence on a woman, thus nullifying the membership of the beating-members, and thus nullifying the membership of the inducted member. That's the vibe I get from their response to inducting women / atheists. The very act of their ritual preserves the status of its members when performed correctly and within the tradition, and nullifies the membership of all those involved when not. Let me know if you guys want me to remove this as it's sort of aside from the discussion, but I just thought of tradition preserving tradition de facto interesting as well.
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Dec 18, 2012 21:18
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Can we just stop having the women / athiest debate? Freemasonry is a fraternal society with certain rules, these include no women and no atheists allowed. Every Mason takes an oath to uphold these rules. If these rules do not appeal to you, don't sign up! Simple as that.
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Dec 18, 2012 21:27
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quote:Brother Senior Warden, are all present Master Goons? Inquire through your proper channel until you are duly satisfied. I've heard it as "Are you satisfied that all present are Brother Masons? If not, proceed to satisfy yourself." and have to surpress a giggle. (we try to open in EA as much as possible, except for things like DDGM visits and such) Edit: might want to add something to the OP, about how no proper Mason will ask you to join - you have to make that decision to start the petition/application process yourself. mrbill fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 21:30
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Aw poo poo, I never new there was a Mason thread. Former central Ohio MM checking in. I haven't attended Lodge in about five years due to a Worshipful Master who was a balls crazy Moonie and some heated infighting between our Knights Templar and members of the Scottish Rite. I do miss it though and it's cool to see some other masonic goons.
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Dec 18, 2012 23:12
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Jibo posted:Aw poo poo, I never new there was a Mason thread. How? It was almost five years old and constantly on the first two pages.
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Dec 19, 2012 00:07
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