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Lobok posted:Whose normal clothes? Does Superman endorse American Apparel t-shirts and Levi's jeans? Does he know what MySpace is? Does he know who won the last World Series or the last American Idol?
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Dec 21, 2012 05:29
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Delzuma posted:Does he know what MySpace is? Does he know who won the last World Series or the last American Idol? Oh come on, it's not like he's Captain America. If he didn't know what MySpace was or who won the last World Series all of his principles and ideas would clearly be empty.
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Dec 21, 2012 05:39
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Delzuma posted:Does he know what MySpace is? Does he know who won the last World Series or the last American Idol? He knows that he's a tree and that other people move. Does that count?
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Dec 21, 2012 05:42
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Delzuma posted:Does he know what MySpace is? Does he know who won the last World Series or the last American Idol? Gyges posted:Oh come on, it's not like he's Captain America. If he didn't know what MySpace was or who won the last World Series all of his principles and ideas would clearly be empty. 
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Dec 21, 2012 12:35
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Delzuma posted:Does he know what MySpace is? Does he know who won the last World Series or the last American Idol? I loved that, if only for the fact that you could tell some dork was just sitting at his desk writing that like, "Got 'em." 
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Dec 21, 2012 12:36
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Baron Bifford posted:Delzuma was quoting a line from Civil War: Frontline #11. Some idiot was questioning his relevancy based on his knowledge of current pop culture. I think Gyges knew that, Baron, given that he also referenced that scene.
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Dec 21, 2012 13:13
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Delzuma posted:Does he know what MySpace is? Why do you think MySpace has a capital S?
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Dec 21, 2012 14:32
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Baron Bifford posted:Delzuma was quoting a line from Civil War: Frontline #11. Some idiot was questioning his relevancy based on his knowledge of current pop culture. It's always important to remember that the importance of knowing what MySpace is came long after MySpace was relevent.
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Dec 21, 2012 19:53
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Luminous Obscurity posted:I loved that, if only for the fact that you could tell some dork was just sitting at his desk writing that like, "Got 'em." I know absolutely nothing about that story arc but it doesn't seem that outlandish that as the avatar of America he should be plugged into the zeitgeist. Sure, MySpace isn't relevant *anymore*. In the Internet age relevancy is measured in years instead of decades. But that doesn't mean it's trivial. I would not be surprised if Twitter is gone in 5 years, but that doesn't mean its impact on American culture is irrelevant. Obviously pop culture isn't the only aspect to that but it's pretty disingenuous to imply that America's pop culture output isn't an integral aspect of its identity.
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Dec 21, 2012 21:52
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Monkeyseesaw posted:I know absolutely nothing about that story arc but it doesn't seem that outlandish that as the avatar of America he should be plugged into the zeitgeist. Sure, MySpace isn't relevant *anymore*. In the Internet age relevancy is measured in years instead of decades. But that doesn't mean it's trivial. I would not be surprised if Twitter is gone in 5 years, but that doesn't mean its impact on American culture is irrelevant. This would be true if Captain America was actually an avatar of America the country instead of the ideals of America. Or if cultural zeitgeist bore any real weight in which side was right in a superhuman conflict over security states, personal liberties, the war on terror, and other ham handedly done analogs to real issues.
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Dec 21, 2012 22:23
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Baron Bifford posted:Jim Lee sucked as in the 90s, but his art has improved considerably since then. He's one of DC's best artists. Besides, these lines on the costumes can easily be removed without compromising the overall design, so I suspect this will happen soon. He defines boring "superhero pose" art for me. There's nothing he's actually good at but drawing some dudes standing around modeling their costumes. Cinnamon Bastard posted:The idea that Superman, everyday, all day, is unconsciously listening to the heartbeats of his loved ones, no matter where he is, is actually pretty great. I mean, if some one had super-hearing all their life, it would be gut-instinct natural to always listen to your loved ones heartbeats, like a security blanket. The last panel is the best part, he's a dorky teenager from Kansas!
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Dec 21, 2012 22:33
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Mechafunkzilla posted:If you can tell an interesting story about Jeff Lebowski, you can probably come up with one about Superman. Stop excusing lovely writers. Should be stickied on every page.
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Dec 21, 2012 22:34
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:The last panel is the best part, he's a dorky teenager from Kansas! Whose hair catches fire because he's flying so fast...
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Dec 21, 2012 22:45
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Cornwind Evil posted:The fact that someone can suggest that a good Superman story would be him fighting a villain who ran a giant child sex slavery ring without irony is why junk like Nemesis exists. It reeks of someone uncomfortable with their own self, as they try and justify their interests by going 'No no, superheroes shouldn't fight apes on jetpacks and giant sentient island that spawn dinosaurs! They should go fight REAL world problems, like the Zeta Cartel, or North Korea, or the Syrian conflict! SEE, I'M NOT A CHILD.' It's not your interests that are the problem. Dear God, I just read that wikipedia summary of Nemesis and there is nowhere near a big enough  that adult human beings conceived, wrote, edited, published, and bought that. Thanks for convincing me to continue not reading comics, I guess.Anyway, there's really no reason this movie shouldn't be good. Superman Returns did a tremendous number of things wrong, but "being about Superman" really was not one of them.
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Dec 22, 2012 03:06
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P-Mack posted:Dear God, I just read that wikipedia summary of Nemesis and there is nowhere near a big enough I don't really think its fair to count Mark Millar as an adult, he made Kick rear end after all.
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Dec 22, 2012 03:17
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Grendels Dad posted:Whose hair catches fire because he's flying so fast... And? P-Mack posted:Dear God, I just read that wikipedia summary of Nemesis and there is nowhere near a big enough My favorite thing about Nemesis was that Millar tried to claim in interviews that it was an 100% original idea don't steal when even down to the white costume it's a straight rip of Diabolik or Fantomas. I still don't know what point he was trying to make with that.
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Dec 22, 2012 04:41
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P-Mack posted:Dear God, I just read that wikipedia summary of Nemesis and there is nowhere near a big enough Yeah, I just read it and I have to agree. I'm comfortable with superhero movies being children's stories come to life if that's the alternative.
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Dec 22, 2012 05:00
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ten dollar bitcoin posted:Yeah, I just read it and I have to agree. There's quite a lot of wiggle room between Nemesis and Silver Age shenanigans involving fighting apes on the moon. I do think we could use more Silver Age light-hardheartedness/goofiness in comic movies though since most non-Batman/Punisher books do throw in a little humor and even have the characters recognize the absurdities of their situations sometimes (though maybe that works better in comics since you don't have to plot around a limited run-time and have more wiggle room when it comes to pacing and timing).
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Dec 22, 2012 05:42
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Rhyno posted:The DVD is decent but doesn't even come close to the comic it's based off of. Action Comics #775 brought me back to Superman after years away. It's the single best modern Superman story of the past 20 years. All Star Superman is amazing but it's more of a classic tale. Action #775 gave us this Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 22, 2012 |
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Dec 22, 2012 20:33
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That series of pages often gets trotted out as an example of how great and noble Superman should be - but its morality is almost-literally straight out of an episode of 24 in which Jack Bauer successfully tortures an alleged terrorist(?) by forcing him to watch the slow execution-murder of his entire family. Surprise! Their deaths were simulated using special effects, so nobody was really hurt ho ho ho. Of course, the implicit message is that we can and will violate you if we want to. You are at our mercy, as even your very perceptions are under our control. The only way to be secure is to submit to our power, and you should thank us for being so generous as to allow you to exist. It's disgustingly smug. "I don't believe I violated you, because the effects of my violation weren't permanent." SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Dec 22, 2012 |
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Dec 22, 2012 20:53
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That series of pages often gets trotted out as an example of how great and noble Superman should be - but its morality is almost-literally straight out of an episode of 24 in which Jack Bauer successfully tortures an alleged terrorist(?) by forcing him to watch the slow execution-murder of his entire family. Instantaneously lobotomizing someone has some ethical landmines as well. Although Superman is really drawn as insanely smug here, too.
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Dec 22, 2012 20:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:That series of pages often gets trotted out as an example of how great and noble Superman should be - but its morality is almost-literally straight out of an episode of 24 in which Jack Bauer successfully tortures an alleged terrorist(?) by forcing him to watch the slow execution-murder of his entire family. The book didn't really address the points the Elite make. It's pretty much just Superman saying "I'm comfortable with my way of doing things, you guys are ugly and vulgar, so let's agree to disagree." Which is fine, I guess. The Elite really were vulgar and excessive and I'd pick Superman over them any day, but picking a hero over a bunch of grotesque straw men doesn't really settle an argument. There was a follow-up story a year or so later where Manchester Black fakes the murder of Lois to see if that would drive Superman to kill. When Superman vows to bring Black in alive despite his pain, Black decides he's worthless and commits suicide. That made me smirk a little.
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Dec 22, 2012 21:06
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Once again, handled better in JLA Classified where Superman tells a bunch of Authority-alikes something like "Your no-nonsense solutions don't work in a world with jetpack gorillas." One and done.
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Dec 22, 2012 21:09
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The world of the Authority was just as nonsensical and sensational as the DC Comics world. The storylines of the Authority closely resembled the storylines of 90s JLA. The difference was that the Authority preferred to execute their opponents, and sometimes their opponents were back by corporate or government entities that they were happy to crush as well.
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Dec 22, 2012 21:17
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Gyges posted:This would be true if Captain America was actually an avatar of America the country instead of the ideals of America. Or if cultural zeitgeist bore any real weight in which side was right in a superhuman conflict over security states, personal liberties, the war on terror, and other ham handedly done analogs to real issues. Captain America would be a lot more interesting if he was the former. How does he differ from Superman if he's the latter, other than not being quite so super?
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Dec 22, 2012 22:11
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Monkeyseesaw posted:Captain America would be a lot more interesting if he was the former. How does he differ from Superman if he's the latter, other than not being quite so super? This varies, but Cap is generally a lot less idealistic and is more a realist who wants to be an idealist. He's a soldier first and foremost, and while he wouldn't want to kill some one, wouldn't object to it either. He and Supes have/should have very similar views on things, but grew up in very different circumstances that shaped them into different people. If Superman is who we are supposed to be, then Captain America is the way to become him, I guess.
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Dec 22, 2012 22:36
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Burkion posted:This varies, but Cap is generally a lot less idealistic and is more a realist who wants to be an idealist. He's a soldier first and foremost, and while he wouldn't want to kill some one, wouldn't object to it either.
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Dec 22, 2012 23:42
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Rhyno posted:The DVD is decent but doesn't even come close to the comic it's based off of. Action Comics #775 brought me back to Superman after years away. It's the single best modern Superman story of the past 20 years. All Star Superman is amazing but it's more of a classic tale. Action #775 gave us this "The idea is you fight this guy and you settle the moral argument by beating him into the ground."
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Dec 22, 2012 23:48
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In the book, Superman sort of addresses Black's points by insisting there is always a less lethal way of doing things, and demonstrates his point by capturing a bunch of aliens. He doesn't address the wider difficulties. For instance, Black points out that a lot of his villains will escape from prison and go on to kill again, and Superman is happy to simply lock them up again.
Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 00:05 on Dec 23, 2012 |
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Dec 22, 2012 23:57
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Baron Bifford posted:Interesting thought: if killing a person, no matter how vile, will drat the hero's soul, what of all our war heroes? What of Audie Murphy, the greatest war hero of WW2, who had 240 confirmed kills? What of the SEALs who killed bin Laden? When is Joe Kelly going to do a comic about these guys? I'm pretty sure Superman's only held that belief for himself and those like him. AKA those who can drat well find another option than to murder another person. I will also point out, Superman isn't against killing enemies if there is literally no other option. He can and has killed people before, though they rarely stay that way. I don't think there's a version of Superman that hasn't had to kill, or helped to kill, some one. It's always something like Darkseid, or Doomsday, or the Anti-Monitor, something larger than life that stands heads and shoulders above the rest, beyond the ability for even other heroes like himself to deal with. Because it's at that point he enters the same playing field as normal people, effectively. Cap? He's vaguely strong, kinda tough for a human, and has an invincible shield. Trying to compare him to Superman is just like trying to compare Audie Murphy to Superman.
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Dec 23, 2012 00:37
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Baron Bifford posted:In the book, Superman sort of addresses Black's points by insisting there is always a less lethal way of doing things, and demonstrates his point by capturing a bunch of aliens. He doesn't address the wider difficulties. For instance, Black points out that a lot of his villains will escape from prison and go on to kill again, and Superman is happy to simply lock them up again. This is a debate that's had about Batman's villains too, isn't it? Especially the Joker.
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Dec 23, 2012 00:50
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Wonder Woman hasn't been covered be she does kill every now and then.
Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Dec 23, 2012 |
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Dec 23, 2012 02:46
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Baron Bifford posted:Interesting thought: if killing a person, no matter how vile, will drat the hero's soul, what of all our war heroes? What of Audie Murphy, the greatest war hero of WW2, who had 240 confirmed kills? What of the SEALs who killed bin Laden? When is Joe Kelly going to do a comic about these guys? The difference is that Superman has, as the saying goes, "powers far beyond those of mortal men". The ideal, perfect man not only doesn't want to kill, but doesn't have to kill, and with his vast powers he should be able to find nonlethal solutions to problems that unfortunately require lethal force by us mere humans. It's not a commentary on the morality of real-life justified killing as much as it is a lament on its regrettable necessity. "If only we were both as good AND as powerful as Superman, then we wouldn't have to kill people in the pursuit of justice, either." Captain America, only being of peak human ability instead of far beyond it, routinely finds himself in situations where lethal force is necessary, as we do in real life. However, still being embodied of ideal morals, he (generally, as it varies from writer to writer) only applies lethal force to the minimal extent that it is necessary to neutralize immediate threats to himself and those around him. That in itself is incredibly generous for a man that, as has been noted, is literally a soldier and could get away with far worse in the course of his duties and nobody would hold him accountable for it. If Superman is a morally idealist power fantasy, Captain America is simply an ideally moralist fantasy. McSpanky fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Dec 23, 2012 |
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Dec 23, 2012 03:10
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Baron Bifford posted:Interesting thought: if killing a person, no matter how vile, will drat the hero's soul, what of all our war heroes? What of Audie Murphy, the greatest war hero of WW2, who had 240 confirmed kills? What of the SEALs who killed bin Laden? When is Joe Kelly going to do a comic about these guys? It actually has Hal Jordan dealing with his guilt over killing a Korean soldier before he became a hero. It does touch on the distinction of killing for survival versus other reasons. But yeah, Superman can see the essence of life itself and it physically hurts him to see it die. Also, you know, he understands the loss of an entire civilization. His value of life is basically superhuman.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:12
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Timeless Appeal posted:You should read New Frontier. It's a comic book in which the superheroes mostly begin to exist near their real world publication dates. It's OK that he indirectly causes massive carnage and suffering, since he's made himself feel every death. It's doubly OK because he's morally superior to various strawmen.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:17
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Snowman_McK posted:This is a debate that's had about Batman's villains too, isn't it? Especially the Joker. In defense of a fictional character, the only reason his villains escape is to give the writers something to write about and the readers some familiar characters to entertain themselves with. The debate is a false one brought about by the serial nature of comic stories and their endless sliding timescale. The Joker has a massive bodycount because he's been murdering guys for over 60 years at this point. Even Gacy or Dahmer would probably have started to taper off if they were in their in their 80's but the clown is still going strong because he is eternally in his 30's and is popular enough with readers that he breaks out of jail whenever a writer needs him for a set-piece. Even within the fiction its pretty ridiculous that the Gotham penal system doesn't have a better way of dealing with Batmans rogues gallery who by and large aren't usually superhuman.
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Dec 23, 2012 05:24
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I like to think that a man can become so crazy that mere brick walls and metal cages don't extend to your perception of existence. The Joker and...I don't know, Calendar Man are just too crazy to be confined. Batman should really be beating the everloving gently caress out of all the city officials/security guards for gross incompetence, because their lack of ability to meet their base job expectations is truly the worst crime of all.  I'm pretty stoked about the movie, by the way. The movie seems to escalate sufficiently for the requisite superman battles. The last movie Superman fought...what, an island? Or his introversion? gently caress you, other superman. Drifter fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Dec 23, 2012 |
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Dec 23, 2012 06:46
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He fought child support. Superman is in a no-win situation in regards of how he subdues his foes. If he kills/harms them, he's being a godlike tyrant who looks down on puny humans. If he hands them to the proper authorities, he's not doing enough despite his great powers. I liked the Superman and Justice League cartoon portrayals where he was forced in situations where his humble upbringings were challenged. He almost murdered Darkseid until Batman pulled him away. He suspended habeas corpus for Doomsday and sent him to the phantom zone. He made himself look like an idiot because he didn't trust one of Luthor's charity schemes.
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Dec 23, 2012 06:59
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I'm sure it doesn't hurt that the revolving door of the rogue's gallery in comics is an (exaggerated) portrayal of how a distressing amount of the population views the actual prison system, especially the way that pop culture portrays insanity as a get-out-of-jail-free card.
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Dec 23, 2012 07:04
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bobkatt013 posted:No he needs to face a retarded Bizarro who is running a child sex slave ring and then kill him by punching him to death while crying. Wait what 
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Dec 23, 2012 07:47
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