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homeless poster posted:Vehicles have played a role in FO since 2 at least.
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Dec 21, 2012 06:43
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The car was super useful as a portable place to keep some of your poo poo, too. You could have a main stash, then your expanded loadout (ammo, healing, whatever) in your trunk and then what you actually took with you into town/sewers/whatever. It was a good system.
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Dec 21, 2012 09:36
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Until the loving thing vanished and stole all your gauss rounds and MFC's. 
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Dec 21, 2012 10:05
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VaultAggie posted:Until the loving thing vanished and stole all your gauss rounds and MFC's. It was stolen. Follow the tire tracks.
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Dec 21, 2012 10:07
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Aside from that one scripted event, it was also buggy as gently caress and disappeared sometimes. I was always pretty careful with my saves back then.
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Dec 21, 2012 18:00
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antidote posted:Aside from that one scripted event, it was also buggy as gently caress and disappeared sometimes. I was always pretty careful with my saves back then. If you didn't pay attention and ran out of fuel it was easy to leave it in the middle of the desert.
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Dec 22, 2012 04:42
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Byzantine posted:I actually like 3 more than NV for exactly that reason. I loved both games, but NV was too...civilized. It's 200 years after the bombs fell. It doesn't take that long to get a civilization started. Just look at how young America is.
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Dec 22, 2012 05:15
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I've started replaying 3 and I think they did a decent enough job justifying the state of the place. The old woman in Megaton mentions that there were intense dust storms which sound a bit like the Divide from New Vegas, and which seem to have only eased off in the last few decades, and Megaton was founded because it was in a crater and sheltered from the storms, around the same time as Fallout 1 was taking place in the West. Rivet City is probably pretty well protected from harsh weather as well, and those are the two main settlements in the game. The rest of the wasteland is full of mutated animals and people that were tough enough to survive the weather, which would naturally discourage people from settling in new areas, but there are some- Republic of Dave, Andale, etc- which could be seen as a sort of precursor to the tribes of New Vegas: communities based around some weird misreading of history or crock of poo poo made up out of whole cloth. It's not on New Vegas's level of course, but they thought a bit about the world building at least, enough to make me fine with the level of civilisation and settlement in the game. I guess I'll see how much ridiculous poo poo turns up that flies in the face of that as I go through the story. So far I'm annoyed that the Outcasts are the ones who have repainted all their armour and redone the whole structure of their society. They should be the ones calling themselves the Brotherhood, and the Brotherhood you end up joining should be calling themselves Outcasts and calling their bosses Protector instead of Elder or whatever. I guess they did it the way they did because they figured Fallout players would want to join the Brotherhood more than the "Outcasts".
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Dec 22, 2012 06:28
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OldMemes posted:I'm still kinda annoyed by the fact that there's no choice to free the enslaved people at the Fort. Freeing the Weathers family from Cottonwood Cove is great, it's just a shame that the slaves in the Fort don't notice that there's no-one left to keep them there. That is because unlike the Paradise Falls Slavers, the Legion has a system designed so if the slaves dare to make a break for freedom on their crippled legs their families, loved ones and friends get flogged for their escape to freedom. Also, I always wondered, how would certain Companions have reacted to certain DLCs if the devs decided to let us bring companions along (Think DA2's DLC where they brought back the companions fully voiced). There are a lot of interesting dilemmas out there for most of the companions. gyrobot fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Dec 22, 2012 |
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Dec 22, 2012 06:34
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2house2fly posted:I've started replaying 3 and I think they did a decent enough job justifying the state of the place. The old woman in Megaton mentions that there were intense dust storms which sound a bit like the Divide from New Vegas, and which seem to have only eased off in the last few decades, and Megaton was founded because it was in a crater and sheltered from the storms, around the same time as Fallout 1 was taking place in the West. Rivet City is probably pretty well protected from harsh weather as well, and those are the two main settlements in the game. The rest of the wasteland is full of mutated animals and people that were tough enough to survive the weather, which would naturally discourage people from settling in new areas, but there are some- Republic of Dave, Andale, etc- which could be seen as a sort of precursor to the tribes of New Vegas: communities based around some weird misreading of history or crock of poo poo made up out of whole cloth. I saw it as being more of a political thing, either Elder Lyons is obviously very charismatic and managed to turn the vast majority of his chapter to a goal that goes against the Brotherhood's ideals, or most of the people sent East in the first place were soft-hearted types essentially being exiled for caring too much about the wastelanders. The way I figure it, the possibility of having to declare an entire chapter of the Brotherhood to be a rogue element would be very destabilising for the elders back west, especially in the middle of a war with the NCR. In any case, if the number of do-gooder brothers in that chapter outnumber the ones who are remaining true to their original mission, there's not much the California Brotherhood can do to stop the DC group from calling themselves the Brotherhood and kicking out the orthodox members. So the Elders back west have a choice between taking no action against Lyons for now and leaving the issue of what the DC Brotherhood is doing being heretical to a later date after the war with the NCR has concluded, or condemning his actions, probably leading to a civil war in the DC chapter which the western elders would be unable to intervene in, and probably leading to a narrow victory for the numerically superior CareBear Brotherhood, who would now be a completely separate organisation with Power Armor and effective rulership over the DC area, effectively ending any chance for the Brotherhood back west to get its hands on pre-war tech from DC. So despite the fact that they act in a manner completely contrary to the Brotherhood ideal, realpolitik wins the day and the Elders back west continue to recognise Lyons as the leader of the DC chapter. There actual in-game justification for it (that the elders back home were divided over whether this change in direction was a betrayal of the spirit of the Codex but nobody could really fault Lyons and his crew for being so noble and kind) was total bullshit, but I just tell myself that this is the revisionist spin the DC chapter's scribes have put on the whole affair to hide the truth from the new members. Edit: oh yeah, and they have the Maxton kid with them. Why they sent the heir to the whole Brotherhood East on a massively dangerous mission like that is a mystery (Bethesda were dumb is the answer I think), but regardless Lyons has a hostage of incredible value so no action can be taken against I'm I suppose. Reveilled fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Dec 22, 2012 |
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Dec 22, 2012 12:42
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Terror Sweat posted:It's 200 years after the bombs fell. It doesn't take that long to get a civilization started. Just look at how young America is. And America was people creating a European style civilisation from scratch, rather than being the result of colonisation 
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Dec 22, 2012 13:05
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And America was people creating a European style civilisation from scratch, rather than being the result of colonisation Yeah, except the people of Fallout didn't "build from scratch". These people came out of vaults, many of which had groups of people inside who were both given a set of "rules" for that particular vault, as well as volumes of books from before the war. They grew up with certain principles and the foundations for building a new society once they left the vaults. The only problem was getting enough people to agree on what was the "correct" model for this new society.
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Dec 22, 2012 15:14
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Tewratomeh posted:Yeah, except the people of Fallout didn't "build from scratch". These people came out of vaults, many of which had groups of people inside who were both given a set of "rules" for that particular vault, as well as volumes of books from before the war. They grew up with certain principles and the foundations for building a new society once they left the vaults. The only problem was getting enough people to agree on what was the "correct" model for this new society. I have no issues with the Fallout chronology, I just thought it was a strange example.
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Dec 22, 2012 15:19
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Reveilled posted:I saw it as being more of a political thing, either Elder Lyons is obviously very charismatic and managed to turn the vast majority of his chapter to a goal that goes against the Brotherhood's ideals, or most of the people sent East in the first place were soft-hearted types essentially being exiled for caring too much about the wastelanders. The way I figure it, the possibility of having to declare an entire chapter of the Brotherhood to be a rogue element would be very destabilising for the elders back west, especially in the middle of a war with the NCR. In any case, if the number of do-gooder brothers in that chapter outnumber the ones who are remaining true to their original mission, there's not much the California Brotherhood can do to stop the DC group from calling themselves the Brotherhood and kicking out the orthodox members. Then again, the original Maxon created this faction in the first place to help rebuild civilization above all else as well as eliminate all traces of Enclave involvement.
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Dec 22, 2012 17:27
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House has managed to build a more advanced civilization in seven years with a few tribes than the Washington DC people have in 200 years. Even Ceasar has created a cult that functions as a basic society/empire in 40/50 years, pretty much single handedly. I guess the East Coast could use the advanced technology at their disposal to create a safe society and system of government, but you know... 
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Dec 22, 2012 23:06
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OldMemes posted:House has managed to build a more advanced civilization in seven years with a few tribes than the Washington DC people have in 200 years. Even Ceasar has created a cult that functions as a basic society/empire in 40/50 years, pretty much single handedly. Judging by the amount of drug-addicted psychopaths, feral ghouls and super mutants that inhabit the Capital Wasteland, I think they've run into a snag. Not to mention the only people of House or Caesar's caliber in the Capital Wasteland seem to be Elder Lyons (who seemed reluctant at first to get involved), Ashur (who is trying in The Pitt) and possibly James (who is dead). Most of the people from what I've seen are greedy, selfish assholes who are uninterested in rebuilding civilization. So really isn't far from the mark there.
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Dec 22, 2012 23:21
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OldMemes posted:House has managed to build a more advanced civilization in seven years with a few tribes than the Washington DC people have in 200 years. Even Ceasar has created a cult that functions as a basic society/empire in 40/50 years, pretty much single handedly. The general consensus is that D.C. was hit harder than the west coast and is just beginning to become livable. So any civilization other than that imported by the Brotherhood will be significantly behind those in the west. On an unrelated note, I think it's interesting that there is relatively little effort toward new production. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few agricultural efforts such as the sharecroppers in NV. I think FO2 had a little bit of mining, and only the Pitt showed a return to mass production of goods. You'd think the Brotherhood would put a lot of emphasis on that sort of infrastructure.
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Dec 22, 2012 23:24
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gyrobot posted:Then again, the original Maxon created this faction in the first place to help rebuild civilization above all else as well as eliminate all traces of Enclave involvement. True, but the Brotherhood of the "present" day has fallen far from the spirit of that principle. It's worth remembering that while isolationist, the Brotherhood of Fallout 1 had good trade relations with the Hub, and even in Fallout 2 they had relatively cordial relations with the NCR. They were even open enough back then that one of the possible endings to Fallout 1 had them joining the NCR and working as the republic's chief Research and Development house. But by the time of the events of Fallout 3 and New Vegas they've slowly turned more and more insular and are even fighting against the NCR, who are as close to a restoration of pre-war civilization as you really could get. Regardless of whether Maxson would have supported Lyons' efforts (I'm iffy on that, though I'm certain he'd not be pleased with the Western Elders who have basically completely missed the point), I don't buy for a minute that the Western Elders have enough self-awareness of their own beliefs to feel that Lyons is actually doing the right thing. OldMemes posted:House has managed to build a more advanced civilization in seven years with a few tribes than the Washington DC people have in 200 years. Even Ceasar has created a cult that functions as a basic society/empire in 40/50 years, pretty much single handedly. I think the official explanation there is that the Capital Wasteland, unlike the rest of the USA, was hit by so many bombs that with the exception of a few tiny places like Megaton it was a completely irradiated hellhole uninhabitable to absolutely everyone for about 150 years. That's why the state of the world over there is basically equivalent to the state of California around the time of Fallout 1.
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Dec 22, 2012 23:33
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Derek Dominoe posted:On an unrelated note, I think it's interesting that there is relatively little effort toward new production. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few agricultural efforts such as the sharecroppers in NV. I think FO2 had a little bit of mining, and only the Pitt showed a return to mass production of goods. You'd think the Brotherhood would put a lot of emphasis on that sort of infrastructure. Apparently a couple hundred miles away from DC there's a society that's capable of building tech even more advanced than the Pre-War era, too. (Replicants, really?)
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Dec 22, 2012 23:45
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Derek Dominoe posted:On an unrelated note, I think it's interesting that there is relatively little effort toward new production. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few agricultural efforts such as the sharecroppers in NV. I think FO2 had a little bit of mining, and only the Pitt showed a return to mass production of goods. You'd think the Brotherhood would put a lot of emphasis on that sort of infrastructure. I don't know if it's what you're talking about but the implication in New Vegas is that the Gun Runners are constructing quite a fair bit of new weaponry and ammunition, though it's probably using a lot of pre-war parts and tooling.
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Dec 22, 2012 23:50
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The NCR has also started manufacturing power armour, which was one of the reasons for their war with the Brotherhood.
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Dec 23, 2012 00:37
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2house2fly posted:The NCR has also started manufacturing power armour, which was one of the reasons for their war with the Brotherhood. Did they? I thought they were just stripping and repurposing old power armor.
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Dec 23, 2012 00:45
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Lord Lambeth posted:Did they? I thought they were just stripping and repurposing old power armor. Yeah, that's the impression I got myself, if the NCR were capable of building it themselves it might actually work the way it was supposed to, as it is the salvaged stuff gives you the weight and heavy plating of power armor but no boost to radiation protection or carrying ability.
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Dec 23, 2012 00:51
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In the case of a Brotherhood-NCR alliance, there's supposed to be some paladins confronting NCR troops about their use of salvaged power armour, which would affect the ending. It doesn't work as intended, but either way it's pretty clear that the NCR are only salvaging power armour, not manufacturing it themselves.
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Dec 23, 2012 01:08
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I think I've said this before in this thread, but I'll swear in the Van Buren design documents one of the reasons the brotherhood kicked off a war against the NCR was that the NCR had managed to turn the glow, the nuked area in Fallout 1 into a settlement/power armor production plant named Glowfield. This pissed off the brotherhood who for whatever reason had gone from having a good relationship with the NCR and the world in general to declaring what amounted to a war on technology.
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Dec 23, 2012 01:21
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eating only apples posted:In the case of a Brotherhood-NCR alliance, there's supposed to be some paladins confronting NCR troops about their use of salvaged power armour, which would affect the ending. It doesn't work as intended, but either way it's pretty clear that the NCR are only salvaging power armour, not manufacturing it themselves. I got the feeling the level of technological advancement in the NCR was probably early-mid 20th century level, enough to mass produce rifles and maybe mass produce some equipment that could be used to jury-rig pre-war technology but not enough to produce it on their own. That said, the NCR seemed making some advances but were really held back by having a really weak/mediocre science arm.
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Dec 23, 2012 01:30
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It may not be manufacturing, but NV has a few mentions of a thriving cattle (brahmin) industry.
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Dec 23, 2012 02:12
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Doesn't Vault City allow them to mass produce new chems, and medical supplies rather than relying on Old World stocks too? The NCR grew out of a tiny village, with no real advanced technology or assets, and was pretty much started by one guy and his daughter - showing that you don't really need a House or a Ceasar to get thing started, even if it does help. Judging by all those generic, unnamed raiders in Fallout 3, humanity was able to survive in the Capital wasteland with very little, so why places like Rivet City haven't got their head together does smack of - apparently the Instutie doesn't use the powerful scientific discoveries they somehow created from scratch in a desolated post-apocalyptic environment where even water is a hard resource to come by because...reasons?Not to mention that there don't seem to be any clear trade routes in Fallout 3 (apparently four guys keep the entire wasteland fed with an endless supply of two hundred year old tinned meat) - which is something like really like about New Vegas. it's not just about building a society, but asking questions about how that society will sustain itself, and what direction it will go in in terms of ideology.
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Dec 23, 2012 02:19
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Derek Dominoe posted:The general consensus is that D.C. was hit harder than the west coast and is just beginning to become livable. So any civilization other than that imported by the Brotherhood will be significantly behind those in the west. The majority of the settlements in Fallout 3 seem to exist with a great sense of security despite there not being much law. Frankly, it's kind of hard to take Arefu freaking out over losing some cattle or Canterbury Commons being upset about local superheros when seriously you see the residents of a town tied to crosses or burnt alive on a pile of tires. The fact that clean water is a huge issue in the game and you are given a robot who can make clean water is kind of weird. I think Fallout 3 had amazing ideas, but they really needed a meeting in which they better discussed how those ideas could flow into each other. I think they could have also made things bleaker if you're going for such a lawless place. On the subject of New Vegas, I was talking to Dharti, and he told me that Knight will help with my gear if I have a pen and plenty of ink. Not sure if the double meaning is intended, but confirmed bachelor proves the statement to be pretty accurate.
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Dec 23, 2012 02:26
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OldMemes posted:Doesn't Vault City allow them to mass produce new chems, and medical supplies rather than relying on Old World stocks too? I think Vault city does, but in general, I don't think the NCR has really is on the same technological level as a whole. Vault City might have vault-tech manufacturing capacities, but thats more or less the pinnacle of their tech and probably is fairly small scale in the general scheme of things. New Vegas overall much better designed in building an overall world, but thats pretty a accepted fact at this point. The way I took it was that DC was overall much more marginal than the Vegas region or California, and was probably much closer to what Los Angeles would have been without NCR influence. It took a while for the radiation to settle down and for settlers from Virginia and Maryland to move in. This is why the Brotherhood didn't seem to have much competition outside of outcasts, super-mutants and then the enclave who are foreign/pre-war influences. I assume around Fallout the war, Rivet city was probably the only real settlement. Overall, it seems the West coast got its poo poo together first, and most likely (I assume Eureka is probably the canon ending) will start moving farther east.
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Dec 23, 2012 02:48
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OldMemes posted:Doesn't Vault City allow them to mass produce new chems, and medical supplies rather than relying on Old World stocks too? The NCR came out of a vault (Vault 15), so they at least had some pre-war resources and tech.
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Dec 23, 2012 02:58
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MrL_JaKiri posted:And America was people creating a European style civilisation from scratch, rather than being the result of colonisation Those settling in the wastes have way more resources than the olde colonists. You can't exactly go digging for guns, medical supplies, and advanced manufacturing equipment when you settle Virginia. And in the Virginia wilderness, there aren't permanent structures at least partially insulated against the elements (not to mention the Vaults). Nor are there things like functional nuclear reactors or RTGs to run the lights, cooking and refrigeration equipment, and diagnostic/clincal robots (not to mention the equipment you're powering!). Seriously it's no surprise that the NCR is undergoing something of an industrial revolution now, they had a substantial leg up in terms of resources and technology. Once you're free of death via simple cuts or cold weather, you have time to organize things like the Followers who are dedicated to revamping and spreading the medical technology of the day. Look at how long it took the US to get a rail infrastructure; imagine if you arrived in Virginia and boom, there are already tracks laid, stations, and locomotives waiting to roll. NCR's shown to be taking advantage of that in NV, with convicts to clear the old rails and perform whatever repairs.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:00
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Sam. posted:The NCR came out of a vault (Vault 15), so they at least had some pre-war resources and tech. Wasn't Vault 15 deliberately overpopulated though? I assume that's why Shady Sands was formed, because there weren't enough resources to go around in the Vault, so people had to leave. Shady Sands is pretty much barely scraping by when the Vault Dweller shows up.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:05
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OldMemes posted:Wasn't Vault 15 deliberately overpopulated though? I assume that's why Shady Sands was formed, because there weren't enough resources to go around in the Vault, so people had to leave. Shady Sands is pretty much barely scraping by when the Vault Dweller shows up. Yeah, Shady Sands doesn't get slaughtered to the man entirely due to the acts of FO1's protagonist, and most of the main raider factions were from the same vault. The only vault that wasn't an experiment in the Core Region was 8/Vault City, which only got by on being a totalitarian state that all but literally criminalized thinking and fun. The successes of postwar society were in spite fo the vaults, not because of them. Lord Lambeth posted:Did they? I thought they were just stripping and repurposing old power armor. This. Chief Hanlon even lays it out explicitly for you that they strip all the fancy bits out so it's basically just plate armor for the modern age. Bulky as all hell but nothing gets through it. Acute Grill fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Dec 23, 2012 |
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Dec 23, 2012 03:24
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OldMemes posted:Wasn't Vault 15 deliberately overpopulated though? With a mixed population of different ethnic groups, at that. Three of the groups became Raider tribes, and the 4th became Shady Sands.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:26
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Kalos posted:Yeah, Shady Sands doesn't get slaughtered to the man entirely due to the acts of FO1's protagonist, and most of the main raider factions were from the same vault. The only vault that wasn't an experiment in the Core Region was 8/Vault City, which only got by on being a totalitarian state that all but literally criminalized thinking and fun. The successes of postwar society were in spite fo the vaults, not because of them. Vault 13 was also a control. The water chip broke by chance and a shipping error sent the supply of backups elsewhere.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:30
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Derek Dominoe posted:Vault 13 was also a control. The water chip broke by chance and a shipping error sent the supply of backups elsewhere. Vault 13 was a prolonged-isolation study, which didn't work out for the reasons described. The only thing that set it apart from FO3's 101 is that 13 was supposed to be opened after 200 years while 101 was supposed to be sealed indefinitely.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:38
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OldMemes posted:House has managed to build a more advanced civilization in seven years with a few tribes than the Washington DC people have in 200 years. Even Ceasar has created a cult that functions as a basic society/empire in 40/50 years, pretty much single handedly. Fallout 3 isn't canon.
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Dec 23, 2012 03:54
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Ardennes posted:I think Vault city does, but in general, I don't think the NCR has really is on the same technological level as a whole. Vault City might have vault-tech manufacturing capacities, but thats more or less the pinnacle of their tech and probably is fairly small scale in the general scheme of things. If I recall correctly, Pinkerton was one of the founding members of the settlement of Rivet City and he is still alive. I'm pretty sure Rivet City is only about 40 years old or so, so that would make Megaton the only actual settlement in the Captial Wasteland that has more than a few people which has been around for longer than living memory, assuming that the Slaver hangout is something recent and that Big Town hasn't always been an actual town. Though that reminds me, you'd think given that the kids of Little Lamplight are unirradiated humans who have the capital wasteland's only functioning school and are all apparently such badasses that they can thrive despite having a super mutant army for next door neighbours, you'd kind of expect Big Town to be, I don't know, bigger. More significant. Little Lamplight might have been more interesting if it was sort of similar to Vault City, with the strangely childlike but militaristic Grown Ups of Big Town ruling over an underclass of people seeking protection (who despite being adults are not considered to be Grown Ups), and each generation of Grown Ups sending their children into the caves of Little Lamplight to grow up without parents.
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Dec 23, 2012 04:01
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King Doom posted:I think I've said this before in this thread, but I'll swear in the Van Buren design documents one of the reasons the brotherhood kicked off a war against the NCR was that the NCR had managed to turn the glow, the nuked area in Fallout 1 into a settlement/power armor production plant named Glowfield. This pissed off the brotherhood who for whatever reason had gone from having a good relationship with the NCR and the world in general to declaring what amounted to a war on technology. You can't really take any if that as ~canon~ though. As much stuff that got worked into or name checked in NV, there's just as much that is contradicted. If I remember the design docs right, the NCR had been pushed out of the Mojave decisively, with the Hoover Dam community wondering if they were lost forever.
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Dec 23, 2012 04:09
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