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End of Life Guy posted:I'm doing my first re-watch and am showing my girlfriend the show for her first time. gently caress Belfleur, this is where it's at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NmUsG9eQKg (One of my favorite scenes of The Wire)
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Jan 8, 2013 22:29
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Reasons to watch season 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wZZu93VsNA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMe-3jFdwLY Oh, and it's also probably the best season on rewatch, too.
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Jan 8, 2013 22:46
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Fragmented posted:gently caress Belfleur, this is where it's at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NmUsG9eQKg (One of my favorite scenes of The Wire) I love that scene. verybad posted:Reasons to watch season 2: Second link is broken. And I agree, it is the best season when you re-watch it. It is jarring on your first viewing, but when you know what to expect, you can appreciate the little things a lot more.
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Jan 8, 2013 22:46
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escape artist posted:I just realized the irony of The War on Drugs and The War on Terror-- the Greek operates in both of these futile charades, on the "bad" side in one and on the "good" side of the other. Yep, for the first couple of times I watched season 2 I actually thought the Homeland Security guy was a mole/bought agent working exclusively for The Greek. It took the other version of this thread to set me right and make me see that The Greek was working for him and that he wasn't surreptitiously sneaking information to The Greek, but openly warning him in order to protect an asset in the "War on Terror". Agent Fitzhugh realizes his "mistake" and tells Daniels at the end of season 2, and both pretty much realize,"Ahh poo poo, the Greek is working with the Government and they're protecting him, we were NEVER going to get him." What I find really interesting is that while The Greek and Vondas flee Baltimore at the end of season 2, by season 4/5 they're not only back in Baltimore but brazenly back in their old hangout which the police knew about. It was a good reminder that while a case might obsess a detective/squad for a period of time, once the case is closed they pretty much just move on with their lives to the next case, there is nobody keep an eye on old known criminal haunts, and even if they wanted to there wouldn't be the time, manpower or money to do so. Edit: As a final aside, Season 2 of The Wire was probably the greatest season of a television program in the history of the entire universe.... up until season 4 came out.
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Jan 8, 2013 22:49
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escape artist posted:That is a shame. Hell, I was a middle class white kid and experienced severe police intimidation before I had even hit puberty. Though, I definitely noticed the police (even the police in school) had a distinctly racist vibe to them. We have a lot of Hispanic people where I live, and I once saw a 13 or 14 year old Puerto Rican screamed at by the school officer, and the kid raised his open hands in surrender, and the officer said "You just raised your fists at me", and he slammed the kid face first into the wall before taking him away. This was at a time when I was way too scared to ever report something like this. Even though The Wire doesn't really talk about racism at all, there's some great subtle moments that make it clear how much of a problem it still really is. In The Cost, as Daniels is talking to some white dude about Kima's shooting, a superior comes up and shakes the white dude's hand immediately assuming that he's the Lieutenant until he's corrected. Nobody says anything, but the look on Daniels' face says it all.
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Jan 9, 2013 00:39
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BrBa posted:Even though The Wire doesn't really talk about racism at all, there's some great subtle moments that make it clear how much of a problem it still really is. In The Cost, as Daniels is talking to some white dude about Kima's shooting, a superior comes up and shakes the white dude's hand immediately assuming that he's the Lieutenant until he's corrected. Nobody says anything, but the look on Daniels' face says it all. I remember that. Another example is when Day-Day thinks that Cedric is a criminal, and starts talking about crime with him. There are a few instances of personal racism, and I will be sure to point them all out during my reviews. Office Walker was an interesting case-- he was black, but basically racist against many blacks. Which brings up an entirely new discussion that we'll get to in Season 4.
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Jan 9, 2013 00:52
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Based on some of Carver's behaviour in these early episodes I think it's probably fair to say he started out with a similar mindset to Walker. He did grow up in the projects himself and does use the term "project niggers". On this note, one of my favorite rear end in a top hat McNulty moments is when him and Kima see the local sheriff-type guy in Virginia (?) and McNulty starts to act racist because he assumes the guy is, and then it turns out he has a black wife.
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Jan 9, 2013 00:59
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cletepurcel posted:Based on some of Carver's behaviour in these early episodes I think it's probably fair to say he started out with a similar mindset to Walker. He did grow up in the projects himself and does use the term "project niggers". Haha, I forgot about that second part. That was funny, although it wasn't real racism, just McNulty being an idiot, assuming the small town cop was racist. Also, I think I mentioned Carver saying "project niggers" in my Episode 2 review. If I didn't, I'm mad at myself, because that definitely stuck out to me. The "er" was distinct when he said it, not ambiguous at all, when in the same episode (or at some point during the shows run) I think Bunk distinctly says it unambiguously with the "a" at the end.
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Jan 9, 2013 01:05
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escape artist posted:Haha, I forgot about that second part. That was funny, although it wasn't real racism, just McNulty being an idiot, assuming the small town cop was racist. Nicky says the same thing as Carver in season 2 when Ziggy's trying to convince him to pool together to buy from White Mike. Something about not getting popped like "a project friend of the family" or something over some dope. Another racism example. Is he the only white person to say it except for Rawls? I can't recall. Also this is totally unrelated but I remember first watching the show, someone had told me one of the major black characters was gay (Omar). I didn't know who it was so when Carver asks Kima when she knew she liked women (with this odd look on his face), I kept waiting/rooting for him to come out 
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Jan 9, 2013 01:21
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OregonDonor posted:Escape Artist said it best, but season 2 parallels the death of the (traditionally white) working class with the effects of urbanization explored in season 1 and beyond. Also, Frank Sobotka is probably one of the most honorable characters in the entire series. I've got to admit a bias here though, because season 2 is my favorite. I'd argue that. From the moment he didn't wash his hands of things after the can of dead women, Frank became a knowing part of the slave trade. I can understand why he did it, but his hypocritical bellowing about having a wife and sisters at the detectives never sat well with me. His only concession to the whole business was that they needed to know if they were holding a can with women in it so they could not bury it in the stacks and risk asphyxiating another load of them. His involvement in the drug trade is murkier, it is profiting off of death and suffering but at a much greater remove and with more self-serving justifications available. But if you knowingly make a direct profit from the movement of slaves, you can't really be described as 'honorable.' That is actually one of the deft touches of season 2. Other than McNulty's obsession and Beadie's personal involvement, most people want to just write the whole thing off. Every form of authority involved can't wait to call it accidental so they can close the case and not dig into the perpetrators, the first thought that the brass have when they bust the bordello is 'Oh god, don't publish the client list!' Outside of McNulty and Beadie, the only one to really take personal umbrage at it is Kima. The scene where McNulty gets 'overwhelmed' is played for laughs by most involved, without any consideration of the women who were doing what they're forced to do. If you're looking at the details of it, the often-dismissive way that the season treats the slave trade is more effectively disturbing than if they'd dwelled on it in a voyeuristic fashion, because that's the way that most folks shrug it off in real life.
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Jan 9, 2013 01:36
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Randomly Specific posted:I'd argue that. From the moment he didn't wash his hands of things after the can of dead women, Frank became a knowing part of the slave trade. I can understand why he did it, but his hypocritical bellowing about having a wife and sisters at the detectives never sat well with me. His only concession to the whole business was that they needed to know if they were holding a can with women in it so they could not bury it in the stacks and risk asphyxiating another load of them. Remember the montage end of Season 2? More sex slaves, despite Frank's death. That moment always makes me tear up. Again, it's an instance of the institution versus the individual. Frank himself is not going to be able to stop this horrific practice of human trafficking, especially with international criminals who have FBI agents and an innumerable amount of money in their pockets. Profit always prevails. I mean, Frank's certainly not a moral guy. There is no good and evil on this show. The blurred lines between morality, immorality and amorality are just one of the ways this show is beautiful.
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Jan 9, 2013 02:07
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Frank couldn't have done diddly squat to prevent the slave trafficking, and if he had tried more active measures he probably would've been killed. BUT. Regardless of being unable to stop it, he still accepted profiting from it. Yes, he threw a tantrum and started to pull back, but in the end he folded with a weak-rear end condition. From that moment onward, he was very directly buying the well-being of his people with the suffering of slaves. Most of Frank's activity could be argued as gray-area because he was fighting for the survival of his people, but this is one stark line where he chose wrong. That complicity furthermore carries over to the others who were in the know like Nicky and Horse. What's shown in the series is that out-of-sight, out-of-mind perspective that lets this crime continue. It's treated as a bad thing, but hey, these guys are SMUGGLING DRUGS. MCU can get a wiretap up for drugs in a jiffy, just go through exhaustion and fill out the stack of paperwork. Get a wiretap on a slave operation? Nuh uh. Just reluctantly bust them and ship them back and accept that they'll be packed into the next outbound from 'Le Harvey.' Seriously, how out of whack is the system when we'll spend untold billions to fail at drug interdiction and turn loose the full power of the Federal government on the issue, but barely even look at the slave trade? That's what underlines season 2 for me.
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Jan 9, 2013 03:06
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They make a point somewhere in the season that while the stevedores always boosted a little stuff on the side it wasn't until the jobs started drying up in Baltimore (and as a side note apart from being right on 95 and the B&O line it's not a very well-located port) that they began losing entire cans. They're just as much pulled into a state of desperation and criminal activity as everyone else affected by late stage capitalism.
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Jan 9, 2013 03:09
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watt par posted:(and as a side note apart from being right on 95 and the B&O line it's not a very well-located port) They actually try to explain it a couple times in passing, but I don't think they do that great a job of it. The port of Baltimore actually does an appreciable amount of tonnage, but much of it is roll-on/roll-off stuff (vehicles) and bulk cargo (e.g. steel) that does nothing for stevedores like Frank and his guys. Different ports have specialized. On the East Coast, most of the container traffic goes through the Port of New York and New Jersey. Some of it also goes through Hampton Roads, which is an enormous natural harbor at the mouth of the Chesapeake that accommodates several large port facilities and can handle all kinds of cargo. As Frank says, with Norfolk available there's no reason for ships to take an extra day going all the way up Chesapeake Bay to Baltimore. So, Baltimore shifted to fill other niches. Wilmington, Delaware is another example of specialization, in that they have the best facilities for handling frozen goods that require cold storage. In the Moyers interview and in his writing in The Corner, Simon talks about the notion of surplus people, people who aren't necessary to the smooth functioning of capitalism. I think season 2 shook a lot of viewers because of the seeming sudden change of subject, but to me it kind of seemed like they were trying to address one of the possible criticisms of the show. A thoughtless or antagonistic viewer can kind of dismiss stories about African American criminals, addicts, and the cops who are paid to keep them down. S2 shows the system failing hardworking white people. "They used to make steel there, no?"
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Jan 9, 2013 03:55
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Yeah I used to live near Norfolk. Basically between Ford leaving and Navy contracts at Newport News drying up they began focusing more on commercial cargo and now Hampton Roads is the third largest port on the East coast even though it's an extra hour and a half to I-95.EvanSchenck posted:In the Moyers interview and in his writing in The Corner, Simon talks about the notion of surplus people, people who aren't necessary to the smooth functioning of capitalism. I think season 2 shook a lot of viewers because of the seeming sudden change of subject, but to me it kind of seemed like they were trying to address one of the possible criticisms of the show. A thoughtless or antagonistic viewer can kind of dismiss stories about African American criminals, addicts, and the cops who are paid to keep them down. S2 shows the system failing hardworking white people. "They used to make steel there, no?" There was a piece in the Atlantic a few years back at the height of the recession about the ethnic Irish neighborhoods in South Philly where the loss of jobs had resulted in crime and drug arrest stats on par with black inner city areas within just a couple years. Simon was right on about the effect of surplus labor. e: found it. Depressing as gently caress, even if it is just white people outside rural areas and Appalachia finally getting in on some of that generational loss action: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/03/how-a-new-jobless-era-will-transform-america/307919/ Alec Bald Snatch fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jan 9, 2013 |
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Jan 9, 2013 05:15
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Fragmented posted:gently caress Belfleur, this is where it's at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NmUsG9eQKg (One of my favorite scenes of The Wire) Hah, they whistle to warn of the 5-oh just like the hoppers and look-outs in the pit.
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Jan 9, 2013 07:59
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escape artist posted:I remember that. Another example is when Day-Day thinks that Cedric is a criminal, and starts talking about crime with him. "Daniels... but you can call me 'Lieutenant'" 
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Jan 9, 2013 08:09
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EvanSchenck posted:The port of Baltimore actually does an appreciable amount of tonnage, but much of it is roll-on/roll-off stuff (vehicles) and bulk cargo (e.g. steel) that does nothing for stevedores like Frank and his guys. Ro-ro does require a certain amount of stevedoring (they gotta lash those trailers and cars, or unlash them, then have someone drive them off), I'm guessing comparable to container. Steel isn't bulk cargo - it's break bulk, and it's pretty drat labour intensive (Cut lashing, forklift to hatch opening, sling to crane, crane out, unsling unto truck / train car), but I don't know how much steel Baltimore actually handles. The bulk cargo they refer to is well, bulk - Unpackaged loose material, like grain, iron ore, coal. Those aren't very labour intensive. (Crane op, bulldozer driver, maybe sweepers depending on the port... When we unloaded iron ore in Baltimore, the crew would sweep, fwiw) The main decrease in stevedoring employement came from containerization. Frank's father, and his grandfather, would have worked general cargo vessels; ships that had been stuffed with crates, bales, bags of grain, machinery, what have you. Now those were labour intensive as all gently caress to load or unload, and stayed in port a long time. Nowadays that stuff comes into containers; unlash, crane to truck, crane to stack, crane to truck, out of the yard or to the LCL terminal. (That scene where Frank is emptying out a container right by the wharf face makes no sense on a lot of levels. Why is the container still on the trailer? Why aren't they at the LCL terminal?) I'm also wondering how the crew got the girls out of the can to have funtimes, unless they had someone specifically arrange the stowage plan so the container would be in one of the few cells that can be accessed by the crew. That vent on top of the container was also pretty  . I've never worked containers extensively, but as far as I've been told that's not how you ventilate a container full of stowaways.They got blue collar culture right, but as a seaman there were a few things around the port that felt a little off. Not that it really matters in the narrative.
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Jan 9, 2013 14:54
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FrozenVent posted:Ro-ro does require a certain amount of stevedoring (they gotta lash those trailers and cars, or unlash them, then have someone drive them off), I'm guessing comparable to container. Steel isn't bulk cargo - it's break bulk, and it's pretty drat labour intensive (Cut lashing, forklift to hatch opening, sling to crane, crane out, unsling unto truck / train car), but I don't know how much steel Baltimore actually handles. With regards to getting the women out during the trip, yeah they'd have to have somebody on the inside to work the stowage so that'd be possible. They weren't supposed to be getting them out to work the crew, they were supposed to be getting trips out for the bathroom and so on. But given the scale of the operation having a insider arranging ground-level stowage (or at least ladder-accessible) wouldn't be a big deal. I wondered about the vent pipe myself, but it made for easy storytelling and it's a minor detail, so I let it go at that.
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Jan 9, 2013 15:26
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Human trafficing doesn't usually involve people on the ship - It certainly doesn't involve bathroom breaks. What I was saying is that most containers on a container ship are stacked so tightly that you can't open them; this is done on purpose so the crew won't help themselves to whatever's inside (And also to maximize carrying capacity). Here's how smuggling people in containers is done: 1. Charge someone a shitton of money for a trip to America. If they can't afford it, that's fine, they'll work it off. 2. Load travellers into containers. If you wanna get fancy, give them a chemical toilet (We're talking real fancy here), some water and some food. I'm not sure who pays for what, but hey, it's only a couple of weeks. Give the travellers a pointy hammer or a chisel. If you want to be real fancy, do the fake front thing, but they x-ray containers nowaday so meh, it won't fool the x-rays. 3. Close and seal container 4. Deliver container to container yard 5. Container is loaded onto ship 6. Once container is loaded, travellers will punch holes through the skin of the container for ventillation. Apparently some of them are told that someone will help them out of the container at that point  7. Enjoy the trip! 8. Whenever the ship gets to destination, container is unloaded and delivered to the American accomplice 9. Clean travellers, put the survivors to work. If anything, The Wire toned down how loving terrible container travelling is. I've heard stories, from multiple sources, of crew hearing banging coming from the container stack in the middle of the voyage. There's no way for the crew to access those containers, so welp. It stops after a few days.
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Jan 9, 2013 17:11
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It was mentioned how McNulty and team catch (kinda) the minor drug kingpins but miss the people truly at the top, like the Greek. I found it interesting when it was revealed in the last season that the real mastermind more or less behind Avon, Stinger, and Marlo was Levy. Guys like Avon and Marlo will come ago but the real leadership behind it will keep profiting. Actually that includes the State Senator Clay Davis who is quite corrupt. I guess the message is that the wealthy elite are the ones that ultimately profit from the drug trade. Either that or lawyers are the source of all problems.  I'm also doing a rewatch and what amazes me about this show it's just as good if not better watching it a second time. I noticed I'm having a hard time dealing with Bubbles because I know what's going to happen to him and there is no hope this time of anything good happening. It's very bleak. At least he starts to finally get better near the end of series but it's a long sad road.
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Jan 9, 2013 18:45
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DropsySufferer posted:I'm also doing a rewatch and what amazes me about this show it's just as good if not better watching it a second time. I noticed I'm having a hard time dealing with Bubbles because I know what's going to happen to him and there is no hope this time of anything good happening. It's very bleak. Bubbles has one of the best ending in the show, possibly the only uplifting one. What are you refering to?
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Jan 9, 2013 18:50
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DropsySufferer posted:It was mentioned how McNulty and team catch (kinda) the minor drug kingpins but miss the people truly at the top, like the Greek. I found it interesting when it was revealed in the last season that the real mastermind more or less behind Avon, Stinger, and Marlo was Levy. Guys like Avon and Marlo will come ago but the real leadership behind it will keep profiting. Actually that includes the State Senator Clay Davis who is quite corrupt. I guess the message is that the wealthy elite are the ones that ultimately profit from the drug trade. Either that or lawyers are the source of all problems. I wouldn't say Levy's the mastermind in any hierarchical sense. It's more like Mancur Olson's notion of stationary versus roving bandits, except instead of functioning as the state people like Levy are there to create an environment within the state in which major drug trades can operate. Obviously the show's take is spelled out in the courtroom scene where Omar's on the stand pointing out the similarities between him and Levy as parasites on the drug trade, but Levy's role as intermediary between the illicit and legit world is deeper than that.
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Jan 9, 2013 18:58
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FrozenVent posted:Bubbles has one of the best ending in the show, possibly the only uplifting one. What are you refering to? I'm referring to his entire journey throughout the series and that's what I mean about parts of it being hard to watch. Just in the first few episodes take what happens to his friend for example. Every time something good almost happens he ends up getting really screwed over time and again. That's the depressing but necessary part of the show and yes there is good ending to it but a long and painful road.
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Jan 9, 2013 19:49
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watt par posted:I wouldn't say Levy's the mastermind in any hierarchical sense. It's more like Mancur Olson's notion of stationary versus roving bandits, except instead of functioning as the state people like Levy are there to create an environment within the state in which major drug trades can operate. Obviously the show's take is spelled out in the courtroom scene where Omar's on the stand pointing out the similarities between him and Levy as parasites on the drug trade, but Levy's role as intermediary between the illicit and legit world is deeper than that. Levy does on occasion take direct part in the business. What struck me about his corruption was his knowingly setting Lyles up to for death in S1 when he tells Avon and Stringer they need to close off their vulnerabilities. He knew drat well what he was saying when he told the two drug lords that they needed to protect themselves and got them to listing their potential weak spots, then he cheerfully absents himself from the discussion of the actual details of the impending murder(s). The cheerful cynicism of his foreknowledge of Marlo's doom was just another bit of evidence.
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Jan 10, 2013 18:16
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Fragmented posted:gently caress Belfleur, this is where it's at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NmUsG9eQKg (One of my favorite scenes of The Wire) Rewatching it I just noticed Johnny Fifty says he'll take the Fifth Commandment instead of Amandment.
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Jan 10, 2013 19:07
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I don't recall seeing this in either Wire thread - found it after watching the LOST RPG http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6821163/the-wire-rpg
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Jan 10, 2013 22:13
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geeves posted:I don't recall seeing this in either Wire thread - found it after watching the LOST RPG ahahahahaha this is brilliant! FRANK SOBOTKA: Let me explain in detail how shipping works. YOU SKIPPED LEVEL TWO AND MISSED NOTHING IMPORTANT.
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Jan 11, 2013 03:38
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWmryAVUoL8
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Jan 11, 2013 07:30
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I think... I would watch this?
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Jan 11, 2013 08:02
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This is amazing. Also, Snoop in a dress just seems so completely wrong.
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Jan 11, 2013 08:31
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I'm up to season 4 on my rewatch, but I'm taking a break first. I feel as if I have to mentally prepare myself for this season. Between the school story arc and the sheer amount of bodies Marlo stacks up it's definitely the most brutal of the series.
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Jan 11, 2013 15:26
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Finished my rewatch of Season 1 and one little observation and one bigger one. Firstly, the first words McNulty says to Stringer at D'Angelo's trial are "nicely done" and the last words said by Stringer to McNulty at Avon and Co's trial are "nicely done" (complete with smirk). And then there's Jimmy. Jimmy, Jimmy, loving Jimmy. After Kima get's shot, he's absolutely in bits, he feels guilt that she got shot on his personal crusade, it shows that he now realises that there are consequences to his actions. At the start of the next episode, he says that he now can't give a gently caress because Kima getting shot ruins his case (or at least that's what he implies). He's just such a loving rear end in a top hat.
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Jan 12, 2013 10:59
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:Finished my rewatch of Season 1 and one little observation and one bigger one. Firstly, the first words McNulty says to Stringer at D'Angelo's trial are "nicely done" and the last words said by Stringer to McNulty at Avon and Co's trial are "nicely done" (complete with smirk). And then there's Jimmy. Jimmy, Jimmy, loving Jimmy. After Kima get's shot, he's absolutely in bits, he feels guilt that she got shot on his personal crusade, it shows that he now realises that there are consequences to his actions. At the start of the next episode, he says that he now can't give a gently caress because Kima getting shot ruins his case (or at least that's what he implies). He's just such a loving rear end in a top hat. Both good observations. I need to distract myself because of personal bullshit and I ended up not having the finances to enroll in school this semester plus I'm doing a first time watch with a friend, who is super intelligent and an English major, in exchange for watching Battlestar Galactica with her. So expect the pace to pick up very soon. Right now I'm still pretty dejected and distracted and intrusive thoughts are really preventing me from doing anything. I can't even watch a drat 22 minute cartoon and follow it.
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Jan 12, 2013 11:31
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Which episode are we supposed to be on? This sorta fizzled out because we all just seem to be watching whatever and whenever.
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Jan 12, 2013 12:25
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:Which episode are we supposed to be on? This sorta fizzled out because we all just seem to be watching whatever and whenever. I think number 4, but we're all going at our own pace I think. I got re-addicted and burnt through an episode a night four times a week, but am going to take a break before starting season 2.
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Jan 12, 2013 14:33
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:I think number 4, but we're all going at our own pace I think. I got re-addicted and burnt through an episode a night four times a week, but am going to take a break before starting season 2. Also, gently caress Vernon Holley. Paging a cop is not a beatable offense, but he attacks Bubbles for paging Kima after she's shot. gently caress that guy, you don't touch Bubs, ever.
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Jan 12, 2013 14:48
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:Which episode are we supposed to be on? This sorta fizzled out because we all just seem to be watching whatever and whenever. Check the OP, or second post. I have only done two reviews. Next up is the infamous Chess Scene episode. But it's totally cool for you guys to go off on your own discussions... I'm just doing every episode one by one, for my own enjoyment, my own critical writing and analysis skills, and the like.
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Jan 12, 2013 21:13
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MC Fruit Stripe posted:The last thing I saw was Wallace coming back from his grandmother's house. I dunno, I just get the sense that this isn't gonna turn out well for him. Assuming you haven't yet watched the show at least once, you should get out of the thread. This is spoiler city man.
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Jan 13, 2013 00:44
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FrozenVent posted:I've heard stories, from multiple sources, of crew hearing banging coming from the container stack in the middle of the voyage. There's no way for the crew to access those containers, so welp. Well, that just depressed the living gently caress out of me. Thanks for the education on human trafficking anyways. CeeJee posted:Rewatching it I just noticed Johnny Fifty says he'll take the Fifth Commandment instead of Amandment. Which is either "honour your father and mother" or "you shall not murder", depending on how you count them. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jan 13, 2013 |
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Jan 13, 2013 01:58
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