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Pretty sure it's completely impossible to make a skill do something when it misses, and adding in a new formula is a lot of effort.
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Jan 20, 2013 19:19
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Davzz posted:Edit: VVV Forgot about that. Oh well, I think the point still kind of stands though. I mean, Train requires you to do some really fiddly stuff to get the enemy into critical too unless there's a trick I don't know about. If you've got WotL Balthier, he's even better; his Barrage skill will try to apply Train/Tame after every shot, and it hits 4x for half damage each. (Enemies stay recruited after they die, provided they don't decay.) Having not played 1.3 WotL, though, I'd be surprised if Barrage made it through Archael's hands un-nerfed. Two Swords on any weapon as a free activated ability is a little ridiculous.
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Jan 20, 2013 19:47
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Trasson posted:If Invite just set a "join after battle if not crystallized/boxillized" flag and didn't change the target into a guest then it could have a 250% success rate and not be unbalanced. As it stands, it's broken no matter the success rate, it's just luck based brokenness, which is the worst. Invite is great for when you already took control of a battle, and can spam it to your hearts content, thus the low %. Invite will not outright win you truly difficult fights, especially later on when the difficulty really ramps up. After you finish reading this LP you will agree that Ch1 and Ch2 are very trivial in nature, and become super simple once people figure the game out. quote:Yeah, making it so that the player has a 1% chance of instantly winning any fight with a single move doesn't magically make that move balanced. If you don't want people to use Invite to get around the "difficulty" of the game (of which a large amount is already based off of getting lucky and/or winning Phoenix Down Tug-Of-War, can of worms), then either remove it from the game or reconsider what your concept of difficulty is. If you want to reliably recruit Monsters, Train is an awesome way to do it, and it makes sense, too. Take a monster to critical status with a standard attack while having Train equipped. There's your 100% Invite vs Monsters. Happy breeding! If you want to reliably recruit a juicy enemy generic that is holding really nice gear, it's much more practical to win the fight first and then corner that unit and spam your Invites. Sure, you can get lucky and nail him with a 5-15% on your first try, but so what? I'm perfectly fine with that happening. It's how RNG's work. Bringing in 5 Talk Skillers and Spamming Invite in hopes of getting lucky is a horrible strategy, though. If you want something like that to be "a clever way for players to solve the puzzle" then you are FOR the game being 100% luck based, which I disagree with. quote:Having not played 1.3 WotL, though, I'd be surprised if Barrage made it through Archael's hands un-nerfed. Archael fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Jan 20, 2013 |
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Jan 20, 2013 20:18
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PFlats posted:If you've got WotL Balthier, he's even better; his Barrage skill will try to apply Train/Tame after every shot, and it hits 4x for half damage each. (Enemies stay recruited after they die, provided they don't decay.) Having not played 1.3 WotL, though, I'd be surprised if Barrage made it through Archael's hands un-nerfed. Two Swords on any weapon as a free activated ability is a little ridiculous. WotL 1.3 takes Barrage away and uses the ability ID for something completely different (Unholy Champion monster skill). I'd never played base WotL before so I edited it back once, and it's definitely OP. Also, it's not Archael who made WotL 1.3, though it does copy FFT 1.3 in almost every way. Archael posted:Barrage was nerfed big-time. It's something like 4 attacks at 30% damage each, so you end up with a 120% damage attack. 50% damage each, works with any weapon and has 100% hit rate. Corvinus fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jan 20, 2013 |
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Jan 20, 2013 20:18
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Corvinus posted:50% damage each, works with any weapon and has 100% hit rate. DrBretto probably forgot to incude that change. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't let it in the game as a free instant 200% damage attack command. It's supposed to be 30-33% each, evadeable, hits 4 times.
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Jan 20, 2013 20:23
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Archael posted:DrBretto probably forgot to incude that change. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't let it in the game as a free instant 200% damage attack command. It's supposed to be 30-33% each, evadeable, hits 4 times. Oops, I posted the original Barrage ability. DrBretto went further and just took it away from Balthier and made it into something else.
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Jan 20, 2013 20:34
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If Archael is still reading this I have a question about the mod. Several of the explanations for your decisions have included something like "this is the best i could do with a game based on percentage chances." So I'm curious why you chose to mod this game instead of something else. That's not a critique or veiled insult, i mean, what appealed to you about the way this game works that you chose to put in so much work on it, despite that?
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Jan 21, 2013 01:34
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I don't know, I don't think Archael went around going 'Boy, what game could I make a hardmode hack of?' but rather 'Boy, I loved FFT. I wonder if I could make it harder?'
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Jan 21, 2013 01:39
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We should try and play it with our feet.
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Jan 21, 2013 02:17
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Charles Bukowski posted:We should try and play it with our feet. Is it cheating if you use a DDR pad? Because if not, I did that once. Didn't really make it that much harder.
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Jan 21, 2013 02:21
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Kyrosiris posted:Is it cheating if you use a DDR pad? Because if not, I did that once. Didn't really make it that much harder. I'm playing it on my phone, I think that makes it easier because I can play it on the shitter at work.
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Jan 21, 2013 02:30
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James Totes posted:I don't know, I don't think Archael went around going 'Boy, what game could I make a hardmode hack of?' but rather 'Boy, I loved FFT. I wonder if I could make it harder?' Facing Monks with Weapon Guard, etc etc.
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Jan 21, 2013 03:02
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Archael posted:This. It's my one of my favorite games of all time. I felt that the game mechanics had a lot of un-used potential and depth that the original just didn't encourage. This. So very much this. FFT is such a great game, but vanilla is bland and way, way too easy. There's only one truly challenging part in the game, which is a real let-down given that it's a strategy RPG. Also, Archael...I think it's bloody time you stopped being a drat baby. Enjoy.
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Jan 21, 2013 06:04
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edit: I was reading before the avatar was bought, my bad. 
Roobanguy fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 06:22
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Roobanguy posted:He's been civil in this entire thread though? It's getting really weird how people complain about him for literally no reason. He bought Archael an avatar you schmuck
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Jan 21, 2013 06:27
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Roobanguy posted:He's been civil in this entire thread though? It's getting really weird how people complain about him for literally no reason. I think he was referring to the stupid newbie avatar.
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Jan 21, 2013 06:27
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Archael posted:I don't think Invite in its current form is broken, at all. Sure, you can get lucky with it in a few opening turns and gain a unit right off the bat, but with the difficult environment in most battles, wasting turns spamming low % Invites is a sure way to Game Over yourself in most situations. Think about the other skills in the Talk Skill skillset- they are all pretty powerful, instant statuses that can be used from range. Why aren't they overpowered? Because their accuracy sucks. Invitation the move isn't really broken in the conventional sense, for the reasons you state. Invite the status is a ridiculously stupid broken status and I think anyone with any sense would agree. The problem is that the only way to set Invite (outside of Train on monsters) is with the Invitation move itself, which you addressed. Sort of. See, you're right in that Invitation's low chance of success in the battles where it's even viable keeps it from being a successful strategy. However, due to the powerful nature of the move, I would definitely argue it's a very power meta-strategy. It's not a reliable way to win a battle, but it's the only move that given enough time on an eligible battle, will achieve victory through means of bashing your head against a wall repeatedly. Nothing else, in vanilla or 1.3, has that sort of extreme power to it. No amount of attempting to critical an opening Earth Slash will outright win a battle, but a successful Invitation can and will tilt the odds in your favor, massively. This is only magnified with 1.3's nature: the AI sucks (relative to a human, I think we'd all agree it's a pretty impressive AI for a game of its type), so it gets better gear and abilities. Therefore, stealing an enemy is amazing, to the extent that Invitation can carry you through a large amount of fights. There's really not much you can do about it, though. MA+0% Invitation is the unfun kind of broken, a move that should be cool and awesome but ends up being useless. MA+250% Invitation would be even worse, being so good as to make every other ability pointless (because even if you gave Stop Bracelet to every job killing one enemy for free still isn't as good as killing one enemy and gaining one ally, permanantly). To top it off, there's no other option. There's probably no way to make Train function on humans, and it wouldn't be balanced there anyway. Removing it removes half the ways to recruit monsters and the only way outside of special characters to get new units that aren't level 1. You've got to keep it, but there's no way to keep it from being broken. That's the real reason why Invitation is broken. Not because of its power, or its hit rate, or anything. Rather, it's broken due to the simple fact that it can't be fixed.
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Jan 21, 2013 07:10
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Delita is perfect for Arch. Well-chosen.
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Jan 21, 2013 07:59
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UmbreonMessiah posted:This. So very much this. FFT is such a great game, but vanilla is bland and way, way too easy. There's only one truly challenging part in the game, which is a real let-down given that it's a strategy RPG. drat man, that is very nice of you. Thank you. The original FFT game, if you go back to it after having seen 1.3 and pay attention to the enemy load-outs, is very, well, bland. They had so much room to at-least explore some interesting, quirky, or varied setups and situations for the player to face, it's like a blank piece of paper. They didn't need to make it difficult either, they just had to give the enemy AI a little more JP to play with, and put some other jobs besides Knight, Wizard and Archer for you to face. When 1.3 was under heavy development, the term WAK was common, it means Wizard Archer Knight, because that combination is in almost every battle against generics all the way to the end of the game. Trasson posted:That's the real reason why Invitation is broken. Not because of its power, or its hit rate, or anything. Rather, it's broken due to the simple fact that it can't be fixed.
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Jan 21, 2013 08:09
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Archael posted:This is true. As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, the binary nature of statuses (it's either applied or it's not) makes them very difficult to balance. Since Invite is the epitome of this, because the AI can't remove it once it's applied, it's really a permanent Charm for the rest of the fight, so it is indeed very powerful. 
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Jan 21, 2013 08:10
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theshim posted:Unless, of course, you give the enemy Invite... Trust me, I tried it. Altima was going to get a custom Seduce-type move that Invited one of your dudes (since it's the final battle and all), but I could never get it to work properly. 
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Jan 21, 2013 08:14
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Archael posted:Unfortunately Square never added a function for how Invite affects a player. If the player gets one of his or her units Invited, the player will still retain full control of it and that unit will still be with the party when the fight is over.
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Jan 21, 2013 08:16
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Ah, so the AI can't Invite its units back to itself? That sucks.
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Jan 21, 2013 08:16
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That's right. Once Invite lands, that unit is yours forever. Unless you reject their Join Up offer or boot them later. I'm also pretty sure Invite is disabled for the AI to even learn or use so that it doesn't waste turns trying to use it on you.
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Jan 21, 2013 08:20
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Archael posted:That's right. Once Invite lands, that unit is yours forever. Unless you reject their Join Up offer or boot them later. I'm also pretty sure Invite is disabled for the AI to even learn or use so that it doesn't waste turns trying to use it on you. Also to possibly prevent a confused/charmed ally to Invite your own allies. Invite is just a really weird thing in the game in general. If I remember correctly, there's some kind of debug thing that lets you pit two parties against each other and I think control both but I'm not sure on that last part. Does Invite get any more screwy there? And while you're at it, any other weird obtuse mechanics you noticed while making 1.3? I love hidden mechanic info. 
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Jan 21, 2013 08:26
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Krysmphoenix posted:And while you're at it, any other weird obtuse mechanics you noticed while making 1.3? I love hidden mechanic info. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAoQN_pCzyY
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Jan 21, 2013 08:33
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I like CCP's Dolphin Kick bug that leaves the user's sprite at height 255 til his next action.
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Jan 21, 2013 10:46
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Is Skywalking* still a thing in 1.3? *Have jump, equip gun, jump on someone with Blade Grasp. Then, rain death on the battlefield from the comfortable safety of the skybox.
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Jan 21, 2013 14:28
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Archael posted:The original FFT game, if you go back to it after having seen 1.3 and pay attention to the enemy load-outs, is very, well, bland. They had so much room to at-least explore some interesting, quirky, or varied setups and situations for the player to face, it's like a blank piece of paper. They didn't need to make it difficult either, they just had to give the enemy AI a little more JP to play with, and put some other jobs besides Knight, Wizard and Archer for you to face. And the game really does go overboard on Knights. Even in very limited maps like Zirekile where there can only be one enemy type, changing it to anything but Knights helps out immensely. Changing it to Lancers is just a good idea for the design of the map. There are still some relatively uncommon enemy types though, even in 1.3. theshim posted:Ahahahaha, of course you did. Brilliant! Shame it didn't work, even on the final battle... * Probably not the one you're thinking of; I think that one is entirely fair.
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Jan 21, 2013 15:33
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Nakar posted:He did something far, far worse*. Although the almost-final battle is really good. Oh god, you've got me anticipating the ending even more now.
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Jan 21, 2013 16:02
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dotchan posted:Is Skywalking* still a thing in 1.3? I don't think that was ever a thing in 1.3.
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Jan 21, 2013 18:23
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I'm pretty sure skywalking is just a visual glitch anyway, like pushing things offscreen with knockback.
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Jan 21, 2013 18:29
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Krysmphoenix posted:And while you're at it, any other weird obtuse mechanics you noticed while making 1.3? I love hidden mechanic info. Here are some more from the top of my head:
Archael fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 18:43
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Archael posted:If your entire remaining team is Charmed, and the AI has steal or status effects, they will try to disable / steal all your poo poo before knocking you out of Charm. Very insidious.  Jesus christ, that's both clever and evil as hell.
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Jan 21, 2013 19:10
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Archael posted:[*] If your entire remaining team is Charmed, and the AI has steal or status effects, they will try to disable / steal all your poo poo before knocking you out of Charm. Very insidious. Because it treats removing Charm like it would using Esuna on their own Poison, right? quote:[*] The FFT AI knows that if it can Crystallize Ramza, it can instantly win the battle. I bloody knew it!
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Jan 21, 2013 19:24
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Can you knock velius back into the water features, or does the game simply not allow it?
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Jan 21, 2013 19:31
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Because it treats removing Charm like it would using Esuna on their own Poison, right? quote:Can you knock velius back into the water features, or does the game simply not allow it?
Archael fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Jan 21, 2013 |
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Jan 21, 2013 19:34
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Donkringel posted:Can you knock velius back into the water features, or does the game simply not allow it? isnt "having a water panel behind you" one of the disqualifiers for knockback?
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Jan 21, 2013 19:36
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You can, in fact, directly add Chicken to an unit. It lasts until the next time they're targeted. Initial: Blood Suck gives you control until a similar check.
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Jan 21, 2013 19:40
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Archael posted:Here are some more from the top of my head:  For all of it's little quirks, I still believe that FFT's AI is some of the best designed. Yes, it can be exploited but it has complete mastery over every rule it knows about.
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Jan 21, 2013 19:59
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