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Zoolooman posted:Are you using his real name? Yeah, I edited it out when he asked me to - I didn't know he didn't want it used since it's what he goes by on Ederon and the MP forums. My mistake.
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Jan 28, 2013 04:52
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't think your quite understanding, your nit picking the semantics of what I said; not addressing the actual concerns that underlie it. No, I was addressing this: Raenir Salazar posted:Since after all, China is just a one province minor; its only natural. According to certain devs. Sampatrick posted:Explain, please. Raenir Salazar posted:In a thread discussing multiplayer balance and how the faction systems made Ming empirically a worse country to play a dev said "Playing Ming in mp is like playing a OPM." Which was hilarious as a OPM has a better ability to compete with France than Ming ever will. Now you're bringing up some other complaints about Ming/factions etc, which I'm not interested in talking about with you again. I just wanted to point out that no one said China is a OPM or is comparable to a OPM in anything other than an analogy. Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 11:05
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Darkrenown posted:Eh, as long as we keep DinoUniversais under wraps it's all good. You have no idea how ready we are to buy this  Cycloneman posted:Who do you plan to play as first when you get EU4? I'm going to play as the Inca and die horribly to the brutality of racist Swedes making it impossible for me to win. What about y'all? Burgundy because an Empire that disapeared in a few days deserves better & because of Mary Gentle's books SA_Avenger fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 13:09
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Darkrenown posted:I just wanted to point out that no one said China [...] is comparable to a OPM in anything other than an analogy.
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Jan 28, 2013 13:14
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Fourth clue about the new Victoria project: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151662019154816&set=a.10151655543149816.610612.284210044815&type=3&l=5fd335e15d&theater Still don't have a clue what it's about. I have faith it's going to be super cool either way. Edit: Actually i literally have a clue right here. Let me rephrase that, i have no idea what the expansion/whatever will be about. Pooned fucked around with this message at 14:51 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 14:41
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Vegetable posted:Isn't an analogy supposed to show that two subjects are comparable in some ways? Utterly hosed unless you do something really cheesy is a way.
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Jan 28, 2013 14:41
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Zoolooman posted:Are you using his real name? I like to imagine he's the real Sid Meier, spending his free time bitching at Paradox devs about China.
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Jan 28, 2013 14:56
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Orange Devil posted:I like to imagine he's the real Sid Meier, spending his free time bitching at Paradox devs about China. Just.. One.. More.. Angry post.
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Jan 28, 2013 14:59
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Pooned posted:Fourth clue about the new Victoria project: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151662019154816&set=a.10151655543149816.610612.284210044815&type=3&l=5fd335e15d&theater Submission? Sounds like fleshing out colonialism maybe? Also, Paradox, would it be possible to find a better way to organize armies? Playing Russia in Vicky2 is a nightmare when it comes to setting up your forces.
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Jan 28, 2013 14:59
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Vegetable posted:Isn't an analogy supposed to show that two subjects are comparable in some ways? Ok, I should have said "equal to" there. They're comparable in the sense they're both not a balanced match for a major nation, but one is not the other. meatbag posted:Also, Paradox, would it be possible to find a better way to organize armies? Playing Russia in Vicky2 is a nightmare when it comes to setting up your forces. Just because you have a massive army in general, or when you mobilise? Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 15:39
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gently caress excommunication. Is there any way to quickly get rid of it? I had a Brandenburg game go to poo poo in the 1600s when I had no fewer than 5 assholes go to war with me over excommunication.
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Jan 28, 2013 16:15
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Jakse posted:gently caress excommunication. Is there any way to quickly get rid of it? I had a Brandenburg game go to poo poo in the 1600s when I had no fewer than 5 assholes go to war with me over excommunication. Start giving the Papancy lots of money.
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Jan 28, 2013 16:27
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Jakse posted:gently caress excommunication. Is there any way to quickly get rid of it? I had a Brandenburg game go to poo poo in the 1600s when I had no fewer than 5 assholes go to war with me over excommunication. The pope can't excommunicate after 1650 so after that you're in the clear. Or just keep up good relations with him and you can't be excommunicated. Not sure about getting unexcommunicated though.
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Jan 28, 2013 16:32
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Shore up relations with the Defender of the Faith and they may lift the excommunication. Takes a while, there's no quick way about this. And prepare for your Christian allies to abandon you.
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Jan 28, 2013 16:43
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Jakse posted:gently caress excommunication. Is there any way to quickly get rid of it? I had a Brandenburg game go to poo poo in the 1600s when I had no fewer than 5 assholes go to war with me over excommunication. If you have at least 100 relation with the Papal State, you won't get excommunicated. No quick way to get rid of it once you have it, but it's easily preventable.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:05
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Also being Protestant also makes excommunication impossible. Strangely the Statute in Restraint of Appeals does not do the same thing and it is possible to be excommunicated after passing it, making it entirely pointless.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:08
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It allows you to pass the church taxes decision even if you're Catholic? I figure it would be something you could do if you're already on bad terms with the church.
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Jan 28, 2013 17:58
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Even rolling back saves I think the empire of Brandenburg is finished. None of the other large powers like me and I either get excommunicated or jumped by a mega alliance. I was too aggressive early and now even if I suck up with gold or get my infamy to 0 every other superpower hates me and I can't fight rebels and France and Britain and Prussia at the same time.
Chump Farts fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 18:03
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Suck it up until excommunication ends. Do whatever you need to do: Retreat an army into neutral grounds, scorch earth, concede one or two provinces. Your war isn't the worst; France and Britain presumably have no borders with you so just scorch earth wherever they can land. When you're done, you need to find allies. I'm pretty sure nobody will ally you when you're excommunicated but when it ends, don't waste any time finding new allies.
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Jan 28, 2013 18:26
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Beamed posted:Yeah, I edited it out when he asked me to - I didn't know he didn't want it used since it's what he goes by on Ederon and the MP forums. My mistake. I've been playing Paradox games in MP Megacampaigns since I was 19 or so, before I've realized that using your real life name online isn't recommended especially when you are in the "What an idiot" stage of maturity. For some forums the realization comes too late.  quote:Ok, I should have said "equal to" there. They're comparable in the sense they're both not a balanced match for a major nation, but one is not the other. No one is claiming some dev said they are literally equal; Only that a dev considers China so unimportant that it is analogous to a one province minor.  It is still missing the point because in actuality a European one province minor is actually in a superior position than Ming.  They tech faster, they don't have factions, some even tech faster than the majors, often they might even have superior sliders and there's worse player Bad Boy for a major playing player to attempt to attack one than there is to attack Ming. All they need to do is carefully and slowly expand, maybe even with colonies if you are coastal. Being a EOPM simply means you are smaller, not systematically and inherently designed to be weaker. Ming is larger but is systematically and inherently weaker.  So right now, portugal circa 1520 or LT 18 can easily defeat Ming, something impossible at the historical date of that tech.  The point is that somewhere when your development laid out their first principles for EU3 they decided to take out historical determinism (and make it more simulationist). Okay, that's a fine decision; but then it was also decided that if you do not exist on the continent of Europe...  Which was compounded with the faction's system which turned something that was extremely difficult even for skilled players (compete with Europe in MP) to something that is only possible through exploits. Factions could be pretty awesome and fun; adding lots of dynamic-ism to the game, there's nothing inherently bad about a system where a different government faction takes controls giving different bonuses and synergies; but it's a little sad that in an expansion ostensibly designed to improve Ming and make it more fun, it makes it just frustrating.  quote:Also, Paradox, would it be possible to find a better way to organize armies? Playing Russia in Vicky2 is a nightmare when it comes to setting up your forces. Isn't there rally points now? You just need to set two per State and for the most part they shouldn't clump too badly. You have to adjust it according to your number of soldiers every so often like a census though.
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Jan 28, 2013 19:50
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Raenir Salazar posted:Since after all, China is just a one province minor; its only natural. According to certain devs. Raenir Salazar posted:No one is claiming some dev said they are literally equal That's exactly what you said. Apparently it's not what you meant, despite it being your literal words, but I hope you can see where the misunderstanding came from. As you've disavowed the part I was arguing against I'll say no more.
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Jan 28, 2013 20:15
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Darkrenown posted:That's exactly what you said. Apparently it's not what you meant, despite it being your literal words, but I hope you can see where the misunderstanding came from. As you've disavowed the part I was arguing against I'll say no more. Are you going to address my actual argument instead of the one you imagined?
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Jan 28, 2013 20:20
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Hey guys what's going on in this thread
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Jan 28, 2013 20:22
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Fister Roboto posted:It allows you to pass the church taxes decision even if you're Catholic? I figure it would be something you could do if you're already on bad terms with the church. Yeah but the tax bonus from Church Taxes is nowhere near worth the constant excommunications. I guess if you notice a series of popes all from countries that like you and have no reason to excommunicate you it can be worth it but if you do get excommunicated with Church Taxes up, it means +4 revolt risk compared to a nation that is not excommunicated with no Church Taxes. Plus unless you are a France level megablob, it's just never a good idea to risk every other Catholic nation getting a free CB on you. E: Although once excommunications go away there's no reason to not do it. Maybe that's what makes it a good idea  .Brillo_Pad posted:Hey guys what's going on in this thread Someone arguing with Darkrenown about EUIII for the millionth time, apperantly.
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Jan 28, 2013 20:26
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Beats arguing with him about Hoi3.
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Jan 28, 2013 20:50
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Riso posted:Beats arguing with him about Hoi3. You rang? How does the faction system for China work, anyway?
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Jan 28, 2013 20:55
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I want to argue with Paradox about how CK2 style monarch faces are awesome and should be in EUIV and beat them about the head with my amazing and compelling arguments until they give in.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:07
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Fintilgin posted:I want to argue with Paradox about how CK2 style monarch faces are awesome and should be in EUIV and beat them about the head with my amazing and compelling arguments until they give in. Oh man, I'd get behind this one. I'd back you up right until you got probated too.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:09
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Ray and Shirley posted:Oh man, I'd get behind this one. I'd back you up right until you got probated too. It'd be worth a goddamn ban. 
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Jan 28, 2013 21:16
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Fintilgin posted:It'd be worth a goddamn ban. If I wasn't already planning on arguing with Darkrenown over CK2: Call of C'thullu, I would be right there with you. Not willing to get banned twice in one thread  .I do not actually plan on getting banned over anything, but I would very much like both proposals to happen if at all possible.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:39
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Gort posted:You rang? There's three factions, the eunuchs, the temple and the bureaucrats and depending who has the most influence in court you can't do certain things. For example you can only declare war if the temple faction is in charge and you can only send colonists if the eunuchs are in charge.
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Jan 28, 2013 21:44
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Raenir Salazar posted:Are you going to address my actual argument instead of the one you imagined? No. There is no argument. You said we said a thing, I said we didn't, you agreed you had not meant that thing. With that out of the way I really have no wish to talk to you any further. Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 28, 2013 |
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Jan 28, 2013 21:48
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I hate to be that guy, all the more so because I would actually prefer it if these things could be more accurately represented, but it is called ~ * ~ E u r o p a ~ * ~ Universalis. It is impossible to properly represent, in a fun way, the ways China and Europe worked, and when there is a compromise to be made with reality, then scale will tip in favour of Europe. At some point you have to accept that the Paradox games we know and love are to a greater or lesser degree blatantly Eurocentric. Yes, Ming and a Euro OPM should not be anywhere near comparable, but I do not think anyone actually disagrees with that, and given that I do not think there is any point in bringing that up in such a confrontational manner. Especially since EU3 is, pretty much, a dead game by now.
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Jan 28, 2013 23:30
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YF-23 posted:Especially since EU3 is, pretty much, a dead game by now. I suppose that's correct, but they'll hopefully learn lessons from it for 4.
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Jan 28, 2013 23:46
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YF-23 posted:I hate to be that guy, all the more so because I would actually prefer it if these things could be more accurately represented, but it is called ~ * ~ E u r o p a ~ * ~ Universalis. I have no wish to get into an EU3 argument, but this is a really lovely intellectually dishonest line of reasoning on your part; unless you think Victoria 2 should have ignored everything outside of London and just had you do paperwork and royal visits as the Queen of Great Britain and Ireland. Why should they represent Prussia or the finer points of industrialization? I hate to be that guy, but it is called ~ * ~ V i c t o r i a ~ * ~.
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Jan 29, 2013 00:00
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Gort posted:I suppose that's correct, but they'll hopefully learn lessons from it for 4. I keep feeling a bit of an urge to boot up EUIII, but then I stop and decide I'll just wait until IV. I'm just too excited about the new systems, especially trade and the new meaningful role of a navy.  It's too bad because I loved EUIII and I've probably burned something like 400 hours in it easy.
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Jan 29, 2013 00:00
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Soylent Pudding posted:I keep feeling a bit of an urge to boot up EUIII, but then I stop and decide I'll just wait until IV. I'm just too excited about the new systems, especially trade and the new meaningful role of a navy. After getting my free copy of Chronicles, I tried to play as well. After playing so much ck2 (cumulatively about twice as much playtime) it just feels so dated and...boring...
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Jan 29, 2013 00:09
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Raenir Salazar posted:No one is claiming some dev said they are literally equal; Only that a dev considers China so unimportant that it is analogous to a one province minor. To be fair, I find it really unlikely that dev actually meant they were analogous to an OPM. He only meant that from a standpoint of its difficulty in a multiplayer game. Paradox obviously put some attention and effort into shaping China into what it is. Whether or not the subject of that attention (the faction system) was misguided or not is a totally different argument.
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Jan 29, 2013 00:10
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Gorgo Primus posted:I have no wish to get into an EU3 argument, but this is a really lovely intellectually dishonest line of reasoning on your part; unless you think Victoria 2 should have ignored everything outside of London and just had you do paperwork and royal visits as the Queen of Great Britain and Ireland. Why should they represent Prussia or the finer points of industrialization? I hate to be that guy, but it is called ~ * ~ V i c t o r i a ~ * ~. No disrespect, but it is only a lovely line of reasoning if you attempt for whatever reason to take it out of context. The context being, that why of course a game called Europa Universalis, developed and published by a European company, likely with European and American audiences in mind, is going to weigh Europe more than Asia when it comes to making compromises with reality. If the issue was with the game dealing solely with Europe, then yes that might have been an appropriate comparison. Though even then, I would say that Victoria accurately reflects its title in that its main focus is the Victorian era, with a very contemporary British point of view towards the world outside of Europe and North America. Basically I just meant that the title is a not-so-subtle hint towards the game's quite blatant Eurocentricism and you shouldn't be taking that so literally you silly goose.
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Jan 29, 2013 00:35
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YF-23 posted:No disrespect, but it is only a lovely line of reasoning if you attempt for whatever reason to take it out of context. The context being, that why of course a game called Europa Universalis, developed and published by a European company, likely with European and American audiences in mind, is going to weigh Europe more than Asia when it comes to making compromises with reality. If the issue was with the game dealing solely with Europe, then yes that might have been an appropriate comparison. Though even then, I would say that Victoria accurately reflects its title in that its main focus is the Victorian era, with a very contemporary British point of view towards the world outside of Europe and North America.
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