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DarkCrawler posted:I know, right?! Seriously, what the gently caress. I mean, I know most kids shows carry an adult message in the context, but holy gently caress that's about the last place I would expect a straight up Wire homage. Mad props to those writers.
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Feb 7, 2013 08:38
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the black husserl posted:The scene with the Deacon being horrified at Hamsterdam was one of the lamest in the series imho. Like this streetwise deacon hasn't seen worse, or couldn't understand the good it was doing. The worst (best) thing about the Hamsterdam storyline is that you know who benefits from it in the end? A white guy who stands up and makes a rousing, inspirational and utterly meaningless speech that just retreads the same tired old "no child left behind!" cliches. And Carcetti knows it, he's been taken around by Colvin and shows the good aspects to go along with the bad, and shown the immediate benefits for the rest of the city streets in the district and asked to at least thing about things before denouncing it. So Carcetti does think (just like Royce does) and in the end he goes for what gets him immediate political gain. Royce does the same thing, only he's thinking about the lowered crime stats and great police/community relationships in the now drug-free sections of the district and trying to think of a political spin to make Hamsterdam palatable. Carcetti does the same thing with the homeless in season 5 too - remember the candlelight vigil? Although in that case a large portion of the city are complicit in the act.
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Feb 7, 2013 09:42
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chesh posted:Seriously, what the gently caress. I mean, I know most kids shows carry an adult message in the context, but holy gently caress that's about the last place I would expect a straight up Wire homage. Mad props to those writers.
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Feb 7, 2013 21:19
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On the fourth season re-watch, I think Officer Walker really is the worst character on the show. I mean, worse then DeLonda, even. Where do police like that come from? I don't see him coming from a very privileged background, so shouldn't he have at least some sympathy? I've never met a cop anywhere close to being that mean - it's like the whole badge is just an excuse for him to torture and steal from people. He's the only 100% evil police officer on the show too, Colicchio is just a dumb guy with no actual malevolence and Herc is stupid as gently caress but overall is little bit more good then bad.
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 21:24
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Walker struck me as a guy who saw being a policeman as giving him power. Maybe he grew up in an abusive household, maybe he was a bully in school who made it through high school and didn't make it into college. Maybe he avoided the drug trade, did all the hard work and kept his nose clean only to discover that his reward for doing the right thing was a low paid job in an underfunded department in a broke city, watching people he considered stupider and beneath him making money hand over first selling drugs on the corner, ditching school and cheating the system that he tried to stay inside and his reaction was to become angry and bitter and lash out at those he perceived as vulnerable, abusing what little power he has to make himself feel better. Guys like Walker just don't spring up overnight from out of nowhere. He would have very much been a product of his surroundings, which doesn't excuse his behavior but may help to explain it.
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Feb 7, 2013 21:31
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DarkCrawler posted:On the fourth season re-watch, I think Officer Walker really is the worst character on the show. I mean, worse then DeLonda, even. Where do police like that come from? I don't see him coming from a very privileged background, so shouldn't he have at least some sympathy? I've never met a cop anywhere close to being that mean - it's like the whole badge is just an excuse for him to torture and steal from people. He's the only 100% evil police officer on the show too, Colicchio is just a dumb guy with no actual malevolence and Herc is stupid as gently caress but overall is little bit more good then bad. The lack of a privileged background is kind of the point - I think Simon said Walker reflects an unfortunate tendency among some black cops who grew up in the inner city to be highly prejudiced against those who are still there. Also beg to differ on Herc, he's dumb as gently caress, yes, but where I draw the line is where this causes him to have literally no idea how much damage he causes and no hint of remorse whatsoever. At the end of the series he's completely sold his soul, and I think even he knows this. I think in the 4th season Herc is selfish as much as he is dumb - I wonder if things could have turned out differently if he'd been upfront about his fuckup with the camera instead of making up a CI and waiting for IID to come for him? grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 21:33
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Likely, yeah, he seems to have a superiority complex. But there's got to me something in the line of sociopathy too to his behaviour.cletepurcel posted:Also beg to differ on Herc, he's dumb as gently caress, yes, but where I draw the line is where this causes him to have literally no idea how much damage he causes and no hint of remorse whatsoever. On the first season when they bust in through Bodie's grandma's door, he is extremely apologetic, in stark contrast to Carver. I think when immediately put face to face to his actions he's remorseful. He's just too dumb for it to have effect when he doesn't see the direct consequences. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 21:39
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Haha, I'm at the point where Valchek makes fun of Rawls trying to get to be the commissioner when he isn't "one of the natives". When he actually kind of IS, Baltimore being traditionally Irish/English American city - he's not Native American native, but as far as Baltimore, MD is concerned he's as native as they come. Hell, he can probably trace his family there as long as the foundation of the city. Super-loving ironic, when you think of it.
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Feb 7, 2013 22:09
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Going back to Hamsterdam, did Colvin ever have a plan to mop up his mess? I mean, he tells all of the officers that after a while they will go down and bust all of the dealers there... but he's going out with a major's pension and 30 years service. It seems to me like the whole idea was to get his figures up and pass the problem on to someone else. I mean, he sure as gently caress must have known that if he got caught legalising drugs that he was going to be fired and give all that up.
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Feb 7, 2013 22:10
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ShaneMacGowansTeeth posted:Going back to Hamsterdam, did Colvin ever have a plan to mop up his mess? I mean, he tells all of the officers that after a while they will go down and bust all of the dealers there... but he's going out with a major's pension and 30 years service. It seems to me like the whole idea was to get his figures up and pass the problem on to someone else. I mean, he sure as gently caress must have known that if he got caught legalising drugs that he was going to be fired and give all that up. I don't think Colvin ever intended to clean up Hamsterdam. That whole idea was just put out there to get his guys on board. He had 6 months left and he wanted to go out actually making a difference. That's the whole crux of the paper bag speech - alcohol laws were keeping police from doing real police work, until it was hidden from view. You can see his frustration with the system in his scenes with Carver and Herc, asking what they had brought the different perps in for. He felt it was a waste of time and the only way he could think of to do real police work was to literally make the problem disappear. Edit: Also, based on the paper bag speech, he legitimately thought this would fly since it was a parallel thing in his mind. That's why he's so shocked and angry when he gets busted down. I don't think he ever once considered that he would get in trouble for it. primaltrash fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 22:21
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Also still the best quote of the show, delivery, acting, content, prelude to the pay-off moment, all: "Makes me sick, motherfucker, how far we done fell." Only scene where Omar gets owned like no tomorrow too. Can you remember any time he didn't have a comeback to anything? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 7, 2013 |
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Feb 7, 2013 22:22
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DarkCrawler posted:Also still the best quote of the show, delivery, acting, content, prelude to the pay-off moment, all: Totally agree, this has been my favorite line in the show for a long time. The way Bunk squirms in his seat as he's talking to Omar, its like at that moment if he could press The Button and set the whole world back to the stone age he would. He's so bitter and just sad about the way his generation went.
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Feb 7, 2013 22:36
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DarkCrawler posted:Only scene where Omar gets owned like no tomorrow too. Can you remember any time he didn't have a comeback to anything? He got owned pretty hard by that ten year old. Didn't have a comeback, either.
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Feb 7, 2013 22:37
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Oh yeah, and nobody can tell me that Herc is more bad then good after this. When he gets confronted by all his mistakes at the end and booted off the police force? "You don't need Sydnor or Doze either. Paperwork's all mine. On the camera, all the informants, me alone." When he went out, he owned to that. It was all 100 percent his own fault, but he didn't drop it off on anyone else. Not like Baltimore police department, that. FrozenVent posted:He got owned pretty hard by that ten year old. Didn't have a comeback, either. It's hardly owning if you come from behind with no warning. I could "own" anyone from Bruce Lee to Carlos Hathcock that way.
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Feb 7, 2013 23:35
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armoredgorilla posted:I don't think Colvin ever intended to clean up Hamsterdam. That whole idea was just put out there to get his guys on board. He had 6 months left and he wanted to go out actually making a difference. That's the whole crux of the paper bag speech - alcohol laws were keeping police from doing real police work, until it was hidden from view. You can see his frustration with the system in his scenes with Carver and Herc, asking what they had brought the different perps in for. He felt it was a waste of time and the only way he could think of to do real police work was to literally make the problem disappear. Colvin: "it was a good thing, huh?" Bubbles: *thinks about it and does not seem to come to the conclusion that it was a good thing* Poor guy can't even feel like he did the right thing at the end of it.
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Feb 8, 2013 00:08
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DarkCrawler posted:Oh yeah, and nobody can tell me that Herc is more bad then good after this. When he gets confronted by all his mistakes at the end and booted off the police force? Counterpoint: multiple brutality charges, none upheld but all of them valid. Herc had a certain amount of tribal loyalty, but unless he identified you as part of his tribe he didn't give a poo poo. I actually think that the scene with Bodie's grandmother was a bit of a turning point for him- he was going to try to reach out and be nice, then they find his card in Bodie's pocket and from there on he's pretty much gently caress-it. None of the characters are black and white, but Herc was pretty much 'hump' defined.
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Feb 8, 2013 00:14
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Okay, Season 4, last episode, Kima comes at Herc's door, he is suspended, all that. Kima tells him that "gently caress what they say, this here is police work. And I'm asking if you police." And he goes yes. He is not the unredeemable rear end in a top hat that everyone in this thread is saying. Just stupid. He is stupid, I am not disputing that. But saying that he is bad...is wrong. Seriously, more I am looking at this, more redemption Herc gets. Call it another of those Wire watch-troughs that you always find new poo poo in.
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Feb 8, 2013 00:28
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Another way of looking at it is that Herc lacks strength of character, like D'Angelo. Neither of them are bad, per se. In fact, they occasionally do commendable things for their people. They're just really impressionable, like children, as they generally take direction from the figures they perceive as authority at the time. When left to their own judgment, they gently caress up or they do something morally wrong because they've never learned how to consistently make good decisions for themselves. Each of them loses faith in the establishment to which they identify at the start of the series, since they have to take a fall. They're still culpable, right, they're not innocent, but they're each put into risky situations without the proper supervision they need to excel. If Daniels had been leading the MCU, he probably would've kept Lester in charge of operations who would've kept Herc to more menial tasks - ones he probably would've been okay with, had he continued to be supervised by quality bosses with the work leading to bigger stuff. Look at his little speech to the new Narcotics guys at the end of s1. After initially grousing at the rooftop work, he was shown where it could lead. He sounds like a true believer. And D, well... isk fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Feb 8, 2013 |
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Feb 8, 2013 02:11
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Herc's not malevolent like Marlo or as cynical as Levy, but he's still bad. He's lazy, stupid, and never ever shows any regret or remorse for the people he hurts when he inevitably fucks up. That counts as bad in my book.
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Feb 8, 2013 02:22
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Randomly Specific posted:None of the characters are black and white, but Herc was pretty much 'hump' defined. This. Bureaucracies are built around people like Herc. Not too bright, somewhat trainable. Can only be trusted with minimal autonomy. The banality of evil personified.
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Feb 8, 2013 02:32
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DarkCrawler posted:Okay, Season 4, last episode, Kima comes at Herc's door, he is suspended, all that. Kima tells him that "gently caress what they say, this here is police work. And I'm asking if you police." And he goes yes. He is not the unredeemable rear end in a top hat that everyone in this thread is saying. Just stupid. He is stupid, I am not disputing that. But saying that he is bad...is wrong. Seriously, more I am looking at this, more redemption Herc gets. Call it another of those Wire watch-troughs that you always find new poo poo in. You're forgetting the fact he spends most of the time doing "police work" in that scene whining to Bunk and Kima about how he's about to get fired for being a moron, hoping they'll have some way to save him.
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Feb 8, 2013 02:41
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cletepurcel posted:You're forgetting the fact he spends most of the time doing "police work" in that scene whining to Bunk and Kima about how he's about to get fired for being a moron, hoping they'll have some way to save him. Son, they gonna beat on your white rear end like it's a rented mule. isk posted:Another way of looking at it is that Herc lacks strength of character, like D'Angelo. Neither of them are bad, per se. In fact, they occasionally do commendable things for their people. They're just really impressionable, like children, as they generally take direction from the figures they perceive as authority at the time. When left to their own judgment, they gently caress up or they do something morally wrong because they've never learned how to consistently make good decisions for themselves.
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Feb 8, 2013 03:00
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I'd never put Herc on the tier with Marlo or Levy or even Rawls either. Hell, a good example of a straight-up bad guy would be Walker. You can even understand where Herc's coming from- he's a not-bright guy who's been treated like a not-bright guy his whole life. Hence why making sergeant and receiving the due respect for being a sergeant is a recurring issue for him. Is he straight-up mustache-twirling malignantly evil? No. Does he have redeeming moments? Sure. He's like any other character on The Wire, you can't say that any of them are pristine examples of anything. The closest you have to pristine characters are the self-inserts of Colvin and Gus, and even they fail upon closer examination. As for the rest- McNulty is a chaotic neutral train wreck, Daniels and Kima tune up Bird, Omar swore at least once, etc. The characters you'd say are good have bad moments, and the often bad characters (like Herc) have their redeeming moments as well. What really sticks out for me as a Herc moment is when he's having his conversation with Carv in S5, talking about Carv diming out Colichio to IAD. He's all but admitting that he respects Carver for being a better man than him and a better cop. Herc would've never even thought of crossing the line on that one. Problem being that he takes that example and turns around to continue being Herc because he's human and he is what he is and probably will never change.
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Feb 8, 2013 03:46
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escape artist posted:Well, remember Herc (and Carver) quits the MCU because they felt disrespected for being given such menial tasks. Exactly. Aside from when he gets to buy vials off the white boys in the port union case, he spends the rest of season 2 bitching to Carv about how they're horribly unappreciated and are constantly sent out to do gruntwork. Thing is, for Herc specifically, that's about all he's good for (at least, without someone fostering him) but he can't accept that. Lester does more or less hand out orders to the pair during that case and Herc resents it.
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Feb 8, 2013 04:49
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Rewatching the series with a friend and he had a question I cannot answer satisfactorily: What does The Greek gain (outside of satisfaction) from killing Sobotka?
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Feb 8, 2013 06:23
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Capntastic posted:Rewatching the series with a friend and he had a question I cannot answer satisfactorily: What does The Greek gain (outside of satisfaction) from killing Sobotka? Frank knows and can identify the Greek (remember how long the Greek resisted meeting face to face?) and the Greek has just learned that Frank was willing to work with the police to bring him down - Frank can no longer be trusted and has become a liability. By killing him, the Greek gets peace of mind that the police don't have a credible witness they could produce in a trial, not that he was planning on being around to be arrested in the first place.
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Feb 8, 2013 06:30
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He gains not being informed on by someone who's seen and talked to him in person, doesn't he? Also puts off anyone else who might be thinking of snitching.
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Feb 8, 2013 06:30
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Capntastic posted:Rewatching the series with a friend and he had a question I cannot answer satisfactorily: What does The Greek gain (outside of satisfaction) from killing Sobotka? Really? That's an unbelievably easy question to answer. Frank is going to send him, Vondas, and everybody they know to jail for a long, long time. If it weren't for Agent Koutris tipping off the Greek, he would be behind bars.
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Feb 8, 2013 07:33
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escape artist posted:Really? That's an unbelievably easy question to answer. Yeah but he argued that The Greek could've just skipped town and wouldn't've been able to get caught. He basically does this anyways, and killing Frank (who was under watch from the cops) seemed like a risk to him.
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Feb 8, 2013 08:04
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Capntastic posted:Yeah but he argued that The Greek could've just skipped town and wouldn't've been able to get caught. He basically does this anyways, and killing Frank (who was under watch from the cops) seemed like a risk to him. He could've skipped town but then he wouldn't have been able to open up shop in Baltimore again.
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Feb 8, 2013 08:07
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Capntastic posted:Yeah but he argued that The Greek could've just skipped town and wouldn't've been able to get caught. He basically does this anyways, and killing Frank (who was under watch from the cops) seemed like a risk to him. So long as Frank was alive, the Greek would never have been able to return to Baltimore for fear of being caught, arrested and facing extraordinarily damning testimony from him (Nick is small fry compared to Frank). With Frank dead, the authorities lose their star witness and best chance of taking the Greek down IF they had arrested him. Nick gets put into witness protection and promptly steps right out of it again in order to stick with what he knows (and costs his girlfriend and child the home and security he'd always promised them), the union shuts down, the police and FBI move on to other things because there are only so many resources to go around, and after a relatively short period of time the Greek and Vondas are right back in Baltimore doing what they'd always done.
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Feb 8, 2013 08:09
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escape artist posted:Well, remember Herc (and Carver) quits the MCU because they felt disrespected for being given such menial tasks. For sure, but the MCU is being run for a long time by a manager who doesn't give a poo poo. And as good as Lester is at the investigation itself, he's not the most effective manager when it comes to retaining folks. Had Lester continued to display the type of mentoring he shows in S1, Herc likely would've stayed on. Any time folks are given orders from others who are roughly at the same rank, feelings are gonna be hurt. Not every time, but it's common enough in workplaces to be mindful of. Personally, I think Herc should've gotten over it, but it's a bit on Lester to adjust his tone. Or Daniels to take Herc aside and explain that it's less about department rank and more about delegation, and that as a sergeant he can lead through serving. If he keeps it up after that, then that's where the talk of "fall in line or get out" can work. Carv has a lesser chance of being retained, because as we see he's able to handle more and there may not have been that much higher level work to do with Lester and Kima at MCU. Daniels manages to get his old job back, right, but he pays for it at home. His heart isn't 100% in it until he makes Major - and even that promotion comes as a surprise to him.
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Feb 8, 2013 08:44
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Lester specifically cultivated the people he felt were capable of doing proper investigative work. He didn't cultivate Herc because Herc didn't belong there and basically was only good for the menial tasks. He trained up Prez, he trained up Sydnor, and he even tried to mentor McNulty a bit, but he wasn't going to waste his time on Herc. We didn't see it in screen time, but he undoubtedly gave Kima plenty of pointers too. Was it the best move politically? No, but Lester was only somewhat more politically savvy than McNulty to begin with. As for Herc's perception of his work, he thought that the cowboy routine was the job. Bust heads, intimidate, show the flag. He was happy as could be when he was rolling with the Western DEU. He totally misses Colvin's dissatisfaction with their little rampage to chase the runner in early S3 because he thinks the good guys won another one.
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Feb 8, 2013 16:33
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When Fitzy tells Daniels the mole was on his end, the camera pans to Herc/Carver sitting at their own table, isolated/away from the bar with the rest of the team. I figured Daniels thought Carver/Herc was leaking info like he caught (Carver) doing in Season 1 and let them get the poo poo stakeout detail. He even had that line when Carver asked why he wanted him back on the team, when caught once, he had to be a crazy motherfucker to try it again. When you see Daniels take his Fuzzy Dunlop CI card for processing and Carver has to explain the retarded name, I think Daniels just gave up on him. Also the straw that broke the camel's back for Carver/Herc in season 2 was no one called them when poo poo went down. The whole case was breaking in the span of one night while they were sitting on Nick's car. That morning they roll in to house and tell them Nick has 24 hours to turn himself in. The dad tells him Nick already posted and gives him Lester's business card. They roll up into the office and everyone's like where the gently caress were you? The whole case broke and no one even bothered to relay them on radio to come home/finish/help. Herc: Last I recall the job hat a little more rip and run to it. Daniels: This case is different, [some poo poo about putting people down based on typewriters] Carver: I hear Bunny Colvin is looking for [some Sergeant position], last I checked, I had stripes.
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Feb 8, 2013 17:54
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I just blazed through all 6 episodes of The Corner and thought it was really great. I'd never heard of it before this thread. HBO has it on OnDemand right now. In a lot of ways, I liked it better than The Wire just because it was tighter and more concise and focused. Fewer characters and not quite so...I don't know...panoramic, spread out and layered. I could remember everyone's name and each episode featured all of the main characters every time so I never got hosed and confused about what was what by having to wait 2 or 3 episodes for a story to be touched on again. It was like reading The Hobbit after trying to follow Lord of the Rings. Easier I guess. I had to watch The Wire twice just to soak up everything that was really going on. It was crazy seeing all of the same actors but in entirely different roles too. The guys that played Freeman and Daniels especially. Sort of like watching Treme and noticing all the same actors but doing different poo poo. The Gary character kept reminding me of Wesley Snipes in White Men Can't Jump. Maybe it was the hat. I've seen him somewhere before though. I highly recommend watching it if you dig The Wire.
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Feb 9, 2013 01:08
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BiggerBoat posted:I just blazed through all 6 episodes of The Corner and thought it was really great. I'd never heard of it before this thread. HBO has it on OnDemand right now. It's not on HBO Go. You'd gotten my hopes up. 
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Feb 9, 2013 04:48
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Try here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48Kl99NQA8I
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Feb 9, 2013 05:19
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Hah no way. I was watching a couple episodes just now. After I switched off my player, the TV was set to HBO, and who do I see? Burrell and Johnny Weeks in an episode of Banshee. I dunno if they're just small parts or what but I might start DVRing it.
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Feb 9, 2013 05:23
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Parachute Underwear posted:Hah no way. I was watching a couple episodes just now. After I switched off my player, the TV was set to HBO, and who do I see? Burrell and Johnny Weeks in an episode of Banshee. I dunno if they're just small parts or what but I might start DVRing it. Pretty sure Burrell is a main character. I've been wondering about that show. The only thing that gives me reservations is: why would a show so good be relegated to Cinemax? (Maybe they're trying to bring the Cinemax brand up a bit-- it's HBO owned)
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Feb 9, 2013 05:44
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YAY!! I'm started The Revolution Was Televised the other day and just started the chapter about The Wire.
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Feb 9, 2013 05:54
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